Ben Gibberd and Nicola of Death Cab for Cutie Welcome to the Art of longevity.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Thank you very much. Thanks for having us.
Keith Jopling:How long have you both on whereabouts in the world are you?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:We are in Los Angeles, California. running all over town telling people we have a new record and
Keith Jopling:it's early. I mean, it's like ATM your times 4pm. My time I'm in London. What kind of rockstars get up at 8am in
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:the morning, ones that have been doing this for a long time
Keith Jopling:with a heavy shedule, I imagine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:we've been well trained. So,
Keith Jopling:you know, as you said, this Friday is pretty special. It's not every Friday, you get to release the new album. And this one is asphalt Meadows. It's album number 10. Nick, where do you place this into the mover, so to
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:speak. I mean, I'm extremely proud of this album, I think it's definitely among the best albums that we've made over over a career. I don't know how to rank all 10. And I have no business even attempting to rank all 10. But I really believe in this album, and I really am proud of how it turned out. And I'm just excited for people to actually hear it and let us know, I think
Keith Jopling:then I read an interview with you that I think was on the maybe on the last record. And you said you kind of see your album sometimes as your kids summer kind of gotta grow up and struggle to keep a job others might become a destined to become a doctor or lawyer. I mean, you're kind of looking at a newborn baby here, do you see anything in the eyes of asphalt meadows in terms of when it grows up?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I said that in almost like a hive mind, my hive mind place. I recently read a quote by William Gibson, talking about his books and, you know, paraphrasing, you said something along the lines of, well, you know, I feel like all of my, my books are like my kids, they go off in the world, they say some have more, some are have more exciting adventures than others. You know, as I look into the eyes of this record, to continue the analogy, you know, I think as if we're gonna, if we're gonna talk about our records, as children, we have a lot of grown up children at this point, you know, this would be the equivalent of like an oopsie, baby, sort of, you know, you have your other children have gone on, you have some kids who are now in their late teens, early 20s, who have gone on to kind of do some great things, and people seem to enjoy their presence in the world. And, you know, there is there is a long shadow that any any record we put into the world lives in at this point. Because of how well received some of the older records have been, but I think that's a good problem to have. You know, that means that we've made some music has touched people's lives. And I feel as if this record will kind of enter the world. And hopefully people will remind people why they love our albums, and they'll find things to kind of connect with it. And I mean, it's I think it's unrealistic for us at this point in our career to think that a new album 25 years in is going to have the same cultural impact. It's something that we made, you know, in basket, cultural peak of our genre of music, you know, and the zeitgeist moment of trans Atlantis ism or plans, or we have the facts, whatever. But the more records we make my expectations then become a little bit a little more meager in the sense that, you know, I don't go into them expecting like, okay, the world's gonna hear this record, and everybody's gonna decide, it's the greatest thing I've ever heard, you know, even if it might be just, in fact, be the greatest thing that
Keith Jopling:I guess it's it may change the band in more subtle ways than than some of the catalog, we'll explore that I read a review, actually, yesterday, I think it was the enemy. It described the band as masters of dreamy in emo tinged Americana, which I know is like one of those awfully simplistic ways to categorize what you do, but I feel personally got I mean, I've been a fan for quite a few years, the last two records for me, did have a dreamy feel kind of softer, production, reflective, almost gentle character. But from the three tracks that you've released, so far, I kind of resisted, you know, listening to the promo copies and what have you. I'd like to sort of put the thing on and listen when it comes out. But it feels like it's going to be very different from the last two in that respect. Well,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:there are definitely some dreamy elements in this record. But yeah, I yeah, there's a reason we released the free tracks that we had, you know, released in the order that we did, I think we wanted to kind of make an announcement that this was going to be a different Sonic experience than the last couple records. And I think coming out of the pandemic, and everybody being resigned to working remotely in their homes. I think we just really wanted to make a lot of noise. It feels as if a lot of music coming out of the last couple of years, somewhat kind of introspective and kind of bedroom, folk or soft, require music based on this methodology, which was made, but we just kind of felt we wanted to come out swinging and make some loud sounds because making loud noises is fun. It's way more fun than making quiet sounds. Yeah, absolutely. I
Keith Jopling:mean, you're kind of working on this hypothesis that the album's created either in the throes of the pandemic, or just the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, it's just some of the best I've heard in, in many years. You know, for a bunch of reasons, I mean, you know, being one of those is that kind of feeling to get back to either a band playing together or make some noise or make something a bit more raw, or, you know, back to the core of, of what the band is, or sometimes just the recording process has been so unusual. I mean, from that perspective, I know that you did have a unusual path to recording this record. Can you tell us a little bit about that, and how that impacted on the final product.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:The record began, as most records begin, which is, you know, me in a room, writing songs and sending them around to the guys, you know, we were on pace to try to get a record out and 2021, or whatever it might have been. And then of course, everything shut down to about a month into the realization that we're going to be there, we're going to be in this state. For a while I came up with this, what was meant to be maybe just a couple of weeks of experimenting to see we kind of write some songs from different perspective and write them together. And that we would take a regular work Monday through Friday. And we would set an order for the five of us, which wasn't necessarily in the order, the way you might make a record. And let's say on Monday, Dave might make a piece of music with a guitar or whatever, you know, keyboards is kind of instrument set. And then he would upload that to Dropbox on Tuesday, let's say Nick was going next, he would add bass to it, upload it, I would pull it down, add guitar, vocals, write lyrics, whatever, so on so forth, till Friday, when we had a song, initially, I kind of thought like, well, let's just try this. This'll this will kind of be a way of connecting us all on this very unconnected times where, at least one day a week, for each one of us, we are actively working on something with a deadline. Because you know, as we all remember, from that time, there were seemingly no deadlines, right? We're all just sitting around waiting for life to get back to normal. And so we started to have some pretty strong results, using that methodology. And final kind of points on it were that, in this process, when you had the music with you, you had full editorial control. But you also also only had 24 hours to turn it around. So you couldn't sit on it and be like, Oh, I couldn't come up with a creative, this sense of like, it created a sense of, you know, this sense of urgency. And the first thought, best thought, but I think what it also provided was, it was kind of like, you know, the analogy of building a house, when making music is kind of a tired analogy. But that's really kind of how it was like, everybody's trying to find a place something to add to it, that doesn't make the whole thing topple over. So at the end of the day, we ended up about half of the record, being kind of a traditional, traditional method, and then half the record kind of coming out of these sessions. That's
Keith Jopling:interesting. I'll kind of listen out then for maybe some of that coming through. The ultimate longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, a premium British audio brand. Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. Releasing records now albums in particular is kind of transformed a little bit through vinyl, which I think is the fastest growing format in the business at the minute and maybe wasn't a featured in the early days of the band. Is there anything special planned for the vinyl release?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Yeah, nothing's sort of out of the ordinary. I mean, we've always pressed vinyl as a band. In fact, you know, it's been something that's been important to us enough along the way that I don't think records kind of come in and out of print. But we always make an effort on every release to press something. And in the early days of the band, there were a couple of different records that we put out that had, you know, other labels that were pressing the vinyl for us, it was interesting enough for us to have a short run. But this time, it's it's your kind of your standard vinyl press are the label that we started on marsuit record in Seattle's has pressed and still continues to press our vinyl. And they've pressed really great color copies of of this and then we have a couple of other licenses out to like music on vinyl or vinyl me please that have some alternate color colorways and things like that. So I mean, it's gonna be available and hopefully, you know, in stock for a while I don't know how fast some of that stuff turns around these days. And I guess the issue more than anything now because like you said, it's such a popular format is just keeping things in print and in stock. So during the pandemic, we announced, like a special edition of the photo album to come out and have a bunch of extra bonus stuff. And that actually is still in sort of oppressing limbo. So we've been able to make a record of hadn't get it pressed in the time that we've some, some people are a little frustrated right now that their photo albums are still not shipping and the album that we made and pressed in the pandemic is on its way. But that's just the way it is. And we're everybody's kind of dealing with that every band, every every label, it's, it's a good problem to have, I suppose. But it's also a problem. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it's just been really great for kind of bringing back the art form of the music, you know, and you're right, colored vinyl seems to be the thing. I mean, you know, it's sort of seems to be rare to kind of come out with, you know, with the kind of old fashioned black vinyl, I think you've got two shades of pink coming out from what I've seen on Friday, it's going to be a big day, actually, as a fan, because there's a couple of other great bands during breaks have got a record out, that's white vinyl, suede has gray vinyl, so
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:yeah, it's cool. I love it. I mean, we were Ben and I were in a record store, we were out in Indianapolis walking around, and we were in a record store in Indianapolis a couple weeks ago. And, you know, it was just, it was amazing. Like, I used to work in record stores years ago. And, you know, we, he and I both and I still go to record stores all the time looking for vinyl, but it was a real palatable sense of like, there's just like, groups of kids in there talking about records showing each other stuff and in a way that just felt like, this is going to continue on, you know, like there's this this moment where I, you know, a lot of people think about vinyl is this sort of like antiquated, old, you know, way of listening to music. And it really was the first time that I was, you know, in a record store. And I was like, this is every bit as as relevant and, and vibrant as it was for me when I was that age, and I'm so thankful. You know,
Keith Jopling:I mean, Ben, to your point about, you know, releasing records that impact on the culture, it feels like vinyl is doing that a little bit for music, you know, in a in a kind of small but important way, I thought was really interesting, actually, that Jack White was was calling for majors to invest in building vinyl factories. Nick, I think you're right, this trend is just gonna keep on going from what I can see. Yeah,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I was actually going to mention that that Jack White PSA do I think he's 100% Spot on. I mean, you know, all it takes is for the Rolling Stones to want to do a five, this expanded version of some late era album, and it shuts every plant down. You know, it's no shots, independent bands and independent labels out of pressing, you know, records that are I love, I love the Rolling Stones, but are far more important in 2022 than, you know, the steel wheels, you know, expanded version, or whatever it might be, I'm sorry, I just, I might be a little shitty, but that's how I feel. But I think you know, to your point, I think that one thing that we've really lost in the digital world is the tap down factor in a lot of elements in life. And we're tactile beings, we like physical things. And for me, one of the many things I love about vinyl is that it requires a level of respect for the music, that other mediums simply don't possess in the sense that, you know, if I buy, I bought a rare Alice Coltrane record, not so long ago. And, you know, I got it in the mail, and I was looking at and I had to clean it, you know, and I wanted to make sure that it played well. And, and, you know, I'm being very careful when I'm taking it on or off the turntable, I'm making sure that you know the cartridge is in good shape. The turntable is, is working properly. So I can listen to it and give it you know, the time and the care and respect that that record requires. You know, I think that that's one of things I love about them the most is that it requires that you respect the music that you treat it with care in a way that you're just swiping a song away with your finger just doesn't require.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, it's it's that ritual, isn't it that just it seems to go together really well with music just as well. As you know, music fits into being in the background while you're doing everything else. I think for me as a fan, it's definitely transformed my listening. So the kind of overriding narrative for this show, if you like is the the ups and downs of the career in the music business over 25 years, a band is going to have highs and lows. And you get to reflect on that when you've been in the industry for two and a half decades. And when that quote comes from Brad Anderson who was in suede, which had a kind of very boom and bust career journey, I mean he he himself is quoting the band's career is like Stations of the Cross the struggle, success. Excess disintegration and if you're lucky enlightenment, it seems to me like Death Cab has been on a very gentle path towards enlightenment how what about the highs and the lows? Do you recognize that kind of journey to an extent
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Oh, no. That is an absolutely perfect analogy. And I'm so glad you told me about it cuz I wasn't aware of it. Yeah, I mean, we, as you said, we've been doing this for 25 years, and the music industry has changed. It could be argued that the music industry has changed more in the past 25 years than any other increment, 25 year increments, before the turn of the turn of the century, the 21st century, of course, in the sense that, you know, when we started this band, the only way people could hear our music, is if it was being played on a college radio station somewhere. And then if that was happening, then the records the physical records, and CDs had to be in stores in these towns, people could actually purchase them, and listen to them, you know, our early tours were a function of that we would show up in Sacramento or something like that, and there would be five people there. And then we would go to a record store and we'd meet any of our albums, they're like, Okay, well, the distributor didn't get the records here, because we're not getting played on whatever College Station and we go to San Francisco, and some saint at Aquarius records had put our record and an end cap for the, you know, staff picks kind of thing, right as you walk in the store. And there would be, you know, 100 people at that show, it was a function of whether or not the music was available physically, in a town that we were going to that determine who how many people were going to work with the show, you know, and your cuts now. And, you know, I don't say this with any bitterness or anything like that. But now a band puts out a free song up and they're playing to 1000 people, because those three songs have went have gone everywhere, and have connected with people, through people sharing them on social media, or ending up on a playlist of popular playlists on Spotify, or Apple music or whatever. The final plan is, if there's if there's one element of our career that I'm very, I feel very fortunate about, and I do many elements is that we were able to figure out how to be a band over the first four or five years without anybody really knowing who we were. And I honestly think that if we had our band had come out in the last five years, and we were the same age we were then 2122 I think we would have been if you can speak this, I think we would have immediately imploded just from the pressure, and all the ears and eyes on us at that time. Yeah, I agree with that. But I think that I'm constantly sort of impressed and blown away by how well formed some of these young bands seem to be with their identity and their self assuredness and their confidence right out of the gates. And they kind of have to be it's, it's such a trial by fire right away. And I agree, but I am very thankful that we got a chance to sort of adjust and figure out how to, you know, live as people how to balance our personal lives and working lives and everything. While we were, you know, in relative obscurity, in the beginning, I
Keith Jopling:think, I don't think we would have been able to make it necessarily at all. I mean, it's interesting, you know, because then you write, you look back, and in one way, everything's changed. In another way, it's still the same. So it's, you know, if you, if you have a band that is the core of like a rock or indie band, so you know, bass, guitar, drums, vocals, it's still, I think, just really important to just practice your craft and get really good at it before you put anything out there in the world. But I think that's difficult for bands to do. Because as you say, you put a track out, if you get lucky, you might get on a couple of playlists. So suddenly, you are everywhere. And it's almost like that crash to the bottom is actually more like a sort of how the chart drops off on a streaming on an analytics dashboard is like, Okay, now, what do we do, and he did have that period of the early two or three albums that first five or six years where I guess you were just gently accumulating a really strong fan base.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:You know, one of the things I'm most proud of, as I look back on the kind of, you know, the first four or five years of this band is that every time we went back to the city, there were more people, and not exponentially more people. But I still have the tour book from a very first national tour and you look at it and it's like Carrboro, North Carolina, five people sold one seven inch, you know, stuff like that. And you know, the next time we go back to Carrboro, there'll be 50 to the new the next time there were 150 and everything seemed to kind of grow for us certainly over the first four or five years very organically and very word of mouth. And it wasn't as if we had we were on bar soup records. It wasn't like we had this conglomerate behind us or certainly even like a very well known indeed, there was no kind of label presence but it wasn't like some pop or merge or something like that. Were like Oh, it sounds so pop. I'll check it out. So that that allowed us to kind of we, you know, just, we met, we met a lot of people, we stayed on a lot of floors, you know, still in contact a lot of people and friends of him to this day, it allowed us room to make mistakes and figure out who we are. And, and I'm just really grateful for that.
Keith Jopling:I feel like that is definitely something that's, that's changed. And I think somehow, between bands and you know, whoever's representing them, be it, you know, whether working independently or on a small label or working with management or self managed, it's just, it's a case of just resisting a lot of the low hanging fruit I feel that can get you suddenly get you a big audience, but then, you know, it's very ephemeral compared to what you're describing. You know, I think that's difficult for bands these days to resist that.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I don't necessarily know that if we had been given another option that we would not have taken. I don't kind of recount these early years with a sense of righteousness, or that we did it the right way or that there was a right or wrong way. If somebody would have said, Hey, would you like to go from playing to five people to 5000 people? In a month? We will 100% would have said yes.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. Yeah, sure. And then yeah, it would have been really interesting to see what would have have happened from there, as you said, yeah, exactly. Keith here, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform. Thanks for the conversation. My sense has been that deaf camp has always had an ambition, both commercially and creatively. So those first few albums were somewhat low phi. And then the photo album seemed to me like the to be the real step in songwriting, and sound. And then trans Atlantis ism came along and you were fully fledged rock band, I mean, you know, indie rock band, quite as sort of full, almost sort of cinematics sound, and that just transformed your careers now, how much of that was your commercial ambition kicking in to be a big band? And how much of it was just a natural creative progression?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Well, I would argue we've never had an ambition to be a commercial band. I mean, if we had, I think we would have done things very differently, if not from the jump, certainly, by the time we got to a record like plan. And you know, I mean, the first single from plans song soulmates body, like the chorus doesn't come in for like over a minute and a half, you know, and, and as I kind of looked at the arrangements of songs on trans last ism, and plans are, which are two biggest records. There are very few of them that have a kind of traditional arrangement that go, okay, the verse comes in, in 30 seconds, here comes the chorus. And back to the second verse, and there are yes, there are a couple of songs, but I felt at that time, and I still feel this way that I couldn't write a hit song, if I try. You know, the idea of sitting down and trying to write a catchy song or a commercial song Never was never a motivation for me or for us. But I do think that the I have a strong kind of melodic sense, and always have and that, you know, the band has been able to present my songs, or songs really, in a way that was kind of a little bit left to center from what was happening on the radio and that by the time to crest to the millennium, I mean, at least in America, you know, I still believe to this day that the worst period of pop music was the late 90s. The worst period for rock music was the late 90s. You know, you look at what was popular here in the states it, you know, just boyband stuff, and really horrific, misogynistic, rap rock was really just knuckle dragging music. I think people were hungry for something that had some intelligence and sensitivity, and we just slotted right into that. Yeah, there's
Keith Jopling:something about the end of each decade, it seems to be like that, you know, any kind of natural cultural wave of a genre just seems to run out of steam. And yeah, I mean, you're right, the end of the 90s was was pretty awful, you know, that was kind of Britpop had run out of steam. Grunge had run out of steam, and there was nothing there. So I guess from a timing perspective, that was create something new, I
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:guess. Yeah. And I think, to that, our ambition has always been relative to position we found ourselves in. So when the band started, we didn't say we want to be on a major label, making radio rockets. Our ambition has been relative to where we found ourselves. So when we put out transAtlantic system, for example, and you know, we had this kind of cultural insight nice moment related to the OSI and, and also just these kind of shift this cultural shift to indie rock as more of a mainstream music, we sat around and we said, you know, I think if we were going to sign to a major label, this would be the time to do it. Because if we wait one more record, it'll be too late. And signing to a major label was nothing that we've ever truly considered or even been interested in. Until we found ourselves in a place where we had all but exhausted, you know, the ability of, you know, bar suit records, kind of get this record in a record store that side of, you know, the United States, and we were on four different labels across Europe, and it was a mess, you know, I appreciate the work that those labels did on our behalf. But, you know, when you go from one country to another, and then they're like, Hi, I'm from your label, like, what labels it here, you know, it was that it became untenable for so our ambition has always been relative to where you weren't a career, we didn't set out with this master plan to be where we are now. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I mean, that's really fascinating for me, and I completely accept that. And then, after the success of transit manager, CISM, you stepped up to a major label on Atlantic Records for plans. And that's really intriguing, because, I mean, it's not just this podcast, like the whole of the music industry is littered with, there's like a wreckage site of indie bands that have signed two majors, and just couldn't make it work for whatever reasons. And you have made it work. It's been six albums, almost 18 years with Atlantic Records. I mean, how have you made that relationship work so well,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I think it's just a really good symbiotic relationship. I mean, we are lucky to be on a label that is staffed with very capable, intelligent people that love their job, there's not a lot of personnel turnover at the label. I mean, it's kind of a testament to the stability of Atlantic Records that this many years on our partnership with them, that a lot of the same people that were there, when we first signed are still on our team, and still they're working for the label. And that that kind of stability on the label side is helpful. Because you're not in suddenly, in these moments where there's a new leadership that comes in and looks at the roster and says, I don't know any of these bands, I never signed any of these bands, let's let's throw all these fans into the wind. And so, you know, that's, that's one side of the relationship. And then we've always, at a certain point in in, what we've done is we've realized that this is going to be what we're doing with our lives. And we're taking what we do very seriously. And, and we've worked steadily and remain sort of disciplined and focused about continuing to deliver records that we're proud of, and records that we believe in, and we're very eager to play shows, and tour and work those records. And I think that, you know, from a labels perspective, that's, we're a dependable band, from their perspective and that way, and that helps strengthen the relationship from, you know, they're doing their work, they're doing their part of their job, we're doing our part of the job and, and that keeps things kind of moving along really well. But we've been very smart and very considerate about our business decisions over the years. But a lot of it too, is a lot of things outside of our control, I think we're very lucky that the label has remained as stable as it has, I think there's an element of that that feels, you know, like good fortune more than it does any, anything I can point to, as far as a choice that we made, you know, for the things that are are under control, you know, we we've, we've kind of as stable as we possibly can. I mean, I think the ad from the company, when we signed to Atlantic, we were as aware as we possibly could have been about what that was going to entail from a work perspective. When we signed to Atlantic Records, the deal we made with each other was like, we're going to do everything we're going, we're not going to be one of those fans that signs to a major and then gets uncomfortable with the fact that they're on a major label and starts kind of backtracking and closing ranks and you know, becoming disagreeable not wanting to do the promo thing or not wanting to do this thing. You know, we weren't blindly doing whatever they asked when they were curating the requests, and the press and the radio and all that kind of stuff. But we, when we signed with Atlantic, we said this is going to be hard, we're going to do a lot of work. And to our credit, you know, if I could toot our own horn, we did it. So, you know, it was it was the symbiosis of Atlantic being the power of a major label pushing plans around the world, but then us like working our asses off for a year and a half. So you know, we both the label and us work really hard to make that record as far as successful what there's something
Keith Jopling:of a case study there I think for for the band's career with with Atlantic, as you know, as a blueprint for a lot of other brands and labels to learn. I mean, you Obviously, given a lot of creative freedom, I really became a fan of Death Cab with narrow stairs, and I will possess your heart. Alright, remember, in fact, it was Amon Ford, who's presented this show is a good friend and journalist recommended I will possess your heart, he just said, you have to listen to this track. And this is your second album on a major label. And I think eventually, this was a single in the US at least as well. It's an eight minute jam. And the vocal comes in at like four and a half minutes. So you were given creative freedom from the beginning, I assume? Or has that been a back and forth that sometimes created that tension.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Atlantic Records, never once has stepped in and told us to change something or has balked at a creative decision that we've made, you know, there are people there who have very good taste, who have given us suggestions about edits on singles or what what might be. But, you know, I think it's also important to know that we came in, we signed to Atlantic Records, having almost sold 500,000 copies of transplants in America. So we were coming in with a track record of selling albums back when people sold records. And so it wasn't as if they had to do you know, you know, they always say the hardest work at a label is just getting to that first X amount of records. Like letting people know this band exists. Well, that work had already been done. And because plans they've gone platinum in the States. And you know, Chris Walla, you know, had produced that record. And it was made in a very desktop fashion, and just the four of us in the studio with an engineer helping out but no label interference or anything. And then that record did as well as it did. It would have been foolish for Atlantic Records to step in and be like, Okay, boys, let's finally kind of, you know, tone this thing a bit, you know, we've already had success with the plan. So, you know, as Nick had said, you know, Atlantic Records has been the exact opposite of the major label horror stories that people tell. And honestly, the deeper I get into my career, there's always been this narrative of like, indie label good major labels, right. But I know more bands and more friends of ours who have been, you know, who have not been paid or have been stopped over or who has had the production of the record get messed up, or has had adversarial relationships with indie labels and with major. And I'm not trying to flip that narrative to say the Indie labels are bad. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that we've culturally, we put a lot of stock in this narrative that independent independent record labels are noble and functioning and better, and major labels are bad and evil. And you know, there's, of course, there's a reason for that, that major label, flameouts are much more public. They're much more juicy from a press angle. And there's also the victim their narrative of like, well, this, this beloved indie rock band went to a major label, and they got fucked over how, you know what a terrible things have happened? major labels read, right? You know, but then you have friends were like, I've been paid by this. You know, I know I'm naming names, but any cool indie label you can think of, there's a band out there still waiting to get paid.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, no, you're totally right. It is interesting, you know, because I mean, you don't have to ask too many questions before, you know, you can invite people into label bashing, particularly majors. Oftentimes, it's sort of the Indians ended up folding, just because they just couldn't manage their business. Well, you know, the artists just kind of bankrolling the spring girlies. And, and all of that. And, you know, I just think it's a really interesting, as I said, a case study for for the way to do things, because it's such a Mangle, there's so many things out of your control as a band, and through a combination of of luck. But as you said, Nick, some savvy decision make just good choices. And just having a symbiotic relationship that's worked, I think is just really, really important. Yeah, absolutely. Just going to talk a little bit about narrow stairs and codes and keys, because that's when I grew to love the band on reflection. Ben, you've sometimes gone back to those records and been a little bit down on those records. I'm kind of interested in that. Do you think something was lacking in the engine of the band during those two records? I mean, what's your reflection on it from this point?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I personally, I love neurosteroids That that record exists in the top half of our albums for me, I think for as tends to be the case with the records that I am less fond of, you know, in the years, post them coming out. A lot of it has to do with just the environment in which the record was made. For example, you know, a lot of people love the photo album. And I think there's some good songs on it. But the process of making that record was so fraught and tense, and we were so burned out from touring, and we were under pressure to make this work. heard in such a short period of time, so we could be on tour in the fall because we were broke. That, you know, I look back on all I can do it through the experience in which we made it the environment which made it. And with closing keys, I was had been recently married, I was living in Los Angeles, everybody else was in the Northwest. We were very geographically and to a certain extent emotionally disconnected. I kind of turned a gun to myself, and I look at the songs on that record. I think, Boy, I really I, I really should have spent some more time. Like, I wish if I could, if there's one record I wished I could do over again, it would have been that, you know, I think there are some great songs I did. I'm not saying I don't think it's like a I don't think it's like an embarrassment of an album arrayed like that. But I recognize where my creative tendencies were at that point. I think that that record in the canon is probably farther away from what people might consider the traditional death camp sound than any other record that we've made. And it's not lost on me that if you know that, I wrote songs for an album that from, you know, from 1000 miles away from Seattle that seem more distinct than the sound, if that makes sense. You know, it's like, the geographical distance, I think, led to the kind of musical distance. And well, they said, because we've still play songs on that record, it's not something I'm not embarrassed by it. It's not something that I think is like, Oh, my God, I wish that as as I said, I can only listen to it through my headspace at that time. And the distance that I was feeling from my life, and everything that was familiar to me, the songs have kind of like a Prozac quality to them, like just kind of like, medicated happiness. And I would have liked to, you know, spend more time on that record, and had a few more songs kind of, inject into it that I think would have might have made it better. But that's, that's how records go. A record is a, an album is an album is a, it is a snapshot of where you are creatively in that point in your life. And so in that sense, I, you know, I would never seriously want to change it. Yeah. And
Keith Jopling:proximity, as you say, is, it's just such a factor. Sometimes you don't realize it at the time, but it is when you look back on it.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Absolutely. And you know, I was living this very different life. Here in Los Angeles, where we're just currently just working, I was living a very different life. And life I live in Seattle. And yeah, I think that that comes, you know, comes through at least spiritually and record.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is a team method. show is produced by the song civilian, that's me, with project managers. It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture. Our amazing cover up is by the wonderful Mick Clark. And original music for the show, is by Andrew James Johnson goes, I know, we don't have too long left, I want to come on to you as a live band, as a live band, you are tight. I mean, you are muscular outfit, it's like you've almost been working out in the gym is athletic. That's the impression I've been, I've heard from a couple of shows that I've seen you do in the UK, is that a process of you really being really drilling yourselves as a live band,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:we are not a band that spends months and months and months in our long hours long rehearsals, and you know, running songs ad nauseam over and over again, to get every perfection dialed in, I think, you know, it became kind of an hour, kind of remember the shift in the band, it became apparent to us at a certain point in the trajectory of the development of the band that if this was what we're going to do with our lives, and we were going to have long, a long, you know, career doing it, we needed to take care of ourselves physically outside of, of tour as much as anything. And I think that all of us have found ways to, you know, take care of our bodies and our minds, when we're not on the road in ways that I think have really kept us, you know, in good physical shape and good mental shape. And, you know, it's a progress, you know, it's certainly a process for all of us to continue to work on that stuff. As far as what happens in the live setting, you know, and how that translates I think that we all are very driven and, and maybe even slightly competitive people in our own ways to play our instruments and be able to, you know, play our parts, the best that I can like, I don't want to be the guy that shows up on stage. And it's, you know, finding my way through a song when I've got four other people standing next to me that absolutely are playing at the best of their abilities. And I think everybody feels that way to a degree and that kind of elevates the entire group because of it. And so I mean an extent like you don't work hard at the Being a live band, but being playing our instruments well and playing together well, if that's important to us, and it's something that I think that we continue to figure out ways to do that, you know, in the most healthy and straightforward way as possible. For me, I think, certainly for Nick, and I haven't been in the band and playing music is it's a very visceral experience, it's a very physical experience, like the way the way my body moves on stage is just, you know, not to sound kind of pretentious about it, but it really just feels like the music is moving through me, you know, and it's, it's, it's, you know, it's probably the same feeling that people have like a revivalist church or something like that, where it's like all the spirits in me. That's what it feels like. But also, you know, I mean, no one would ever call desktop punk. We came up, like going to punk shows and like going and seeing very visceral music, and like, being moved by bands, I mean, like one of the best live bands I've ever seen in my life. And Nick, I'm sure you feel the same way as this band from como called seaweed. And it was five people on stage six, five people on stage, just the amount of energy coming off the stage, which is so infectious, and just pulled you into the show so much more than if they would have just been standing there playing they're playing their instruments. And so as Nick said, if you know, you know, nothing is choreograph in the show, we don't. Okay, so at this point, I'm gonna say this guy's so make sure that they do that little part that it's just, you know, the music, even though a lot of is basically soft rock, it's still kind of flows through me, and I think all of us, and just kind of just kind of like grabs our spirits and our like, our, you know, and, and our spirits kind of make our bodies move in this way that is probably, you know, not necessarily congruent to the style of music, you know,
Keith Jopling:I think that explains it actually, just having that punk ethos in there somewhere. Because listening to your albums, as I say, particularly recent albums that have had a more gentle edge and you see the band live, you think, okay, there's there is a punk ethos there in terms of the way that you're, you're putting that music across. So kind of explains it. I only really have one other question, which is in the streaming era, again, longevity, for indie bands, there's a lot of guitar bands, at the moment breaking through, it's a very, very vibrant scene. You know, there's fun times the SAM fender does a lot of bands doing that kind of classic indie sound and bringing something new and longevity is kind of what they strive for. At least one of the things they strive for a you've achieved it. I mean, what do you pass on? What do you say to them?
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:I have a short answer. And then we can kind of get into a long answer, I think, I don't know if we're necessarily a place that we can offer advice to new bands, about how to manage one's career, we came up in a very different era, as we've discussed, and you know, the stakes for saying something a little uncouth in an interview, or having a bad show and having somebody film it, you know, the stakes are so much higher for fucking us than they were when we were starting, they just saw, but I think that the most important thing, you know, do in a band is it sounds maybe kind of cheesy, but hopefully you're doing it for this reason, but to remember that it's supposed to be fun. And that, you know, you have to ask yourself the question like, why would we be doing this if nobody cared? Who would we be making music and wanting to make records, because it's fun to do, and because it's musically and spiritually, creatively rewarding. And I think if there's one thing I'm very clear, there are many things that I'm proud of, in our career, but I, but I'm very proud of the fact that even the records that did not hit, as well as the other ones are some of the records that I might personally like more than others. We've always gone in with the singular focus of making music that we could say we were proud of, and that expressed something earnest and real about our lives. You know, there are, of course, you know, I won't mention names, of course, but I was listening to a band recently that had a peak kind of had its creative peak in the early OS, that has gone on to become just in my opinion, and an embarrassment of features and, you know, flagrant attempts to be commercial. And, and you listen to these early records, and you just hear the humanity and then you hear just the universality of the emotion and everything, and then you kind of zip over to something 15 years later, like, what is this fucking garbage like this was made by committee for the sole purpose of being played in arena. I'm very proud of the fact that we've never done and, and I think that, you know, popularity kind of wanes. It kind of goes up and down. We've had lean years and peak years as far as our you know, record sales when that was a thing and and, you know, with our live numbers, but I think one of the many reasons people continue to be a fan of this band is that I think that they can sense are earnestly and that, that we believe what we're singing that we believe what we're playing and that we're the reason we're doing it in the first place was for the love it and not, you know because someone is telling us that if we collaborate with this particular group that or singer that we will have a better chance at radio or something like that that's never been how we've thought about our business.
Keith Jopling:I think your point about fun as well. I mean, it's kind of underrated as a philosophy, I think it gets you through, essentially, it gets you through life, there's that, quote by a cowboy Jack Clement isn't around the music business, like we're in the fund business, if we're not having fun, you know, we're not doing our job. And I think that's wholly true, because there's so many elements that want to take the fun out of it.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I've got one more
Keith Jopling:question, Nick, Nick, what are you most looking forward to about the the immediate future the band following Friday? New record out? What do you anticipate,
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:right now I'm so excited about the fact that we get to tour, you know, it was such a dark moment, during the pandemic, when there was suddenly this moment of, you know, do we even have a music industry any longer are we going to be able to, you know, actually get in a room with other people and celebrate this thing that, you know, it's been put earlier very well, you know, it's like a spiritual, like a version of church, you know, in some ways, just, you sharing this electricity with strange colors in a room. And whether that's five people or, you know, 5000, it's something that is powerful, and has been such a massive part of my life, that when there was this feeling that it might not be possible anymore, or there was this doubt, in the world of the severity of the pandemic, you know, because psychologically, a pretty dark moment, and this feels really celebratory, and I'm very thankful, and, you know, feel very lucky that we were able to get through all of that intact, we made a record that we're really proud of, and now, we get to go out and, and play in a room and share in that energy again, in a real, real meaningful way. And, you know, it's easy to make big promises when things are going poorly that, you know, I'll never take a minute of this for granted. You know, I think, but I really believe that, you know, I think there was this moment of like, if we get through this, because I'll never forget how quickly things changed from Life is good in the world, to everybody stay in their houses, and don't go outside. I really am approaching kind of the next era, the next chapters of being able to perform live with a much different perspective than I had pre pandemic was such a traumatic experience for the globe, you know? So yeah, I'm very excited about just the simple things, you know, playing shows, being able to be in a room and travel with my friends is something that has been meaningful in my life. And now I have this this other perspective of how quickly it can be taken away. And it just, it fills me with, I don't know, so much hope and excitement and positivity, but I'm really looking forward to the tour.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, absolutely. Look forward to seeing when you come over to Europe, which I think is in the spring next year. And it's so fascinating to hear your own version of that kind of Brett's curve, if you like and I think particularly how you've kept the zest for what you do. You just you've just kept it alive for so long. And it's still there, which I think it's just great to hear.
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:To quote Ste Turner from Honey, I don't know nothing else.
Keith Jopling:That's one way of looking at it. Absolutely. Absolutely. What else? What else would you do? Exactly. Listen, thanks a lot. I know you gotta run to your next thing. So thanks very much for coming on. And yeah, I look forward to getting it out. And yeah, I'm looking forward to Friday, for sure. Thanks, guys. Thank
Ben Gibbard, Death Cab For Cutie:you very much. Thanks for having us.
Unknown:See you soon. Bye bye.