at the lakeside cottage where our most recent record D tour de force was recorded.
Keith Jopling:Canadians do love the lake side, don't they? I don't
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:really wish to spend any time with anyone that doesn't love the lakeside. It's, it's a beautiful place to be. And yeah, I'm, that's why I say I'm in. I'm doing embarrassingly, well, I got to weather this pandemic, here at the lake. And I think that's part of what spurred all of the charity work we did throughout the pandemic, because I felt guilty about how good I was doing.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, it looks very good on the cam jams, which we'll come to that also, appropriately enough. It's where I first heard Barenaked Ladies music was by lakeside, Ontario. So we'll, we'll come on to that in a second as well. But where I'd love to start basically with with the tour de force, because well, congratulations on it. I've been listening to it nonstop for the past three weeks trying to catch up with the rest of your catalogue in between, and I really love it. It's, it's come out so well. Are you pleased with it? Thanks,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Keith. Yeah, I love it. I, I'm super proud of it. I'm, I'm proud of the big kind of bombastic moments of internal dynamo, and flip and good life. But I'm even more proud of the kind of more vulnerable moments like live well, and God forbid, and manmade lake, I just love the record.
Keith Jopling:It's a classic record, I think, I mean, you know, it's, it's almost too early to say because you've got to give it time to bed in but just as someone coming back to your music after, you know, not listening for for a while, and starting with that new record. It's a kind of masterclass in, in what you do, you know, the songwriting and the different styles that you bring. But also the scheduling is, is incredible, because, you know, you start off with the kind of three big BNL bangers, and then it's into straight into something more reflective. And also that the other guys in the band step up with, with the songs that they they wrote and sing on and it just becomes something of an of an epic record. Is that intentional the way you set out to do that? It's been
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:called one of the most important records of our generation by myself and drummer Tyler Stewart.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, you know, I, I wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't turn out to be.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I do. I do love it. And, you know, the, the tracklisting. And that sort of journey through the record, is something we take it's kind of anachronistic at this point, because most people simply don't listen to music the way dinosaurs like us listen to music, but it's really important to us the the order that you hear the songs and how one leads into another we spend weeks working on a sequence and going back and forth. What do you think about this? Well, what if we trim a little bit of the space and this song goes into that song instead? We probably went through a dozen different possibilities before we settled on this.
Keith Jopling:Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And as well, just the small detail but the way you I mean, I love the way you We finish off your records generally like listening back to them over, over the years that you're all of your albums are well sheduled. But nicely finished. And man made lake seem to be the perfect finish to the tour de force. But then it's just a little, little gap there. And along comes internal dynamo, which kind of feels like a bit of a statement at the end. I mean, what what was the thinking behind putting that as the last track, which I love it by the way, I think it's awesome.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, I love it too. And it was going to be man made like, but we've finished our shows for almost 10 years now, with something that Brian and veroni Brian Richie from the violent femmes dubbed it the Tyler show, because we've been ending our sets with me going back behind drums and Tyler coming out front and singing Led Zeppelin song or a queen song or a different version of some BNL song Thin Lizzy like we've, we've, it's just such a fun moment in the show. And Kev brought internal Dynamo to the band, and said, You know, I was thinking like the end of the show, like, let's actually get add on drums. And we'll have ties sing the middle part. So it's kind of a nod to the live show. Really the record ends the way the show ends.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I love it. It's got it starts like something that reminds me a kind of dire straits, and then you get into a kind of Rage Against the Machine thing. Yeah, but it's it's so Barenaked Ladies as well. So yeah, it's I really feel like the album is great. Just one more song on the album, actually, that that I want to come to, before we rewind back to the beginning, because I've spent like the last three weeks just just, it feels like cramming for an exam just trying to listen to everything you've done. And I didn't get through everything. But you know, there's a lot there over 33 years. And I was like, Well, how are we going to sum this up in you know, a 50 minute conversation. But the track it's a good life. It does that in you know, three and a half minutes.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, that I sent that song to the guys and Tyler responded right away, BareNaked, ladies documentary channel banger is a great summary of what that song is. I was writing it with Kevin Griff. And I've been doing a lot of writing with Kevin over the last 10 years. And we had basically the whole song. And it just needed a bridge. And Kevin left for it. He had to pick something up or he went to the bathroom. He was gone for a few minutes. And I wrote the whole bridge, which is kind of the entire story of Barenaked Ladies,
Keith Jopling:actually in 30 seconds in the end, yeah. Yeah. And
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Kevin came back and said, What do you got? And I sang the bridge. And he said, Well, God, damn, you really are Ed Roberts and Archie. So yeah, I love that track.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, it's, it's so you've managed it somehow. I don't know how you did. But yeah, it does. It sums up a career. And it's lovely. So your story, in many ways, kind of is a perfect longevity curve. So this whole, the concept for this whole show came from Brett Anderson of suede talking about, you know, the career of every, you know, big band, which is starts with the struggle, then you have a stratospheric rise to the top. And then at some point, you know, like, likely is what happens with the Icarus moment, you know, you come crashing down, and then you kind of work towards a renaissance. And you have that I think you've done that. But it feels like the beginning is is where to where to start here. Because maybe it wasn't such a struggle for you in the first place. It seemed like more of a surprise. But I mean, can you wind right back to the beginning of the band and sort of talk me through just how that happened? Yeah, in
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:some ways, it was a surprise, but in other ways, it it. Everything just kind of naturally progressed. I guess, what made it a big surprise is that we were flatly turned down by all the major labels in Canada. So we we actually thought this wouldn't be a career. We were told, we were not the kind of band that would ever fill venues or sell records that, you know, the people that reviewed the music, liked it quite a bit, but they just didn't see it as a viable act. And so we thought, oh, okay, well, we still really like it. So we're going to do it for a while before we get our heads back into university. And there just seemed to be a steady increase. And people coming to see the show people buying our independent cassette for song demo off the stage. And eventually, it just kind of blew in Canada anyway, it just exploded. You know, it got to a point where before we even had a major label record out our independent force on cassette that was turned down by all the labels. This cassette only release was the number one record in the country. It was, it was ahead of YouTube, and Madonna in 1991, in Canada on the charts. And it was the thing we recorded in one night in a studio to try and get a record deal. And it failed. And yet, it ended up at the top of the charts. And that led to the release of our first record Gordon, which went diamond in Canada, you know, 10 times platinum. And we we put up a 76 date national tour in Canada, usually when people tour Canada, they do like 10 or 11 shows because that's the extent of the large cities in our country. But we put up 76 shows, basically every town with a hockey arena across the country. And we sold it out in three hours. So despite being steady and and traceable, it was rather meteoric at the end. Yeah.
Keith Jopling:So there was no struggle in a sense at the beginning.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Well, there still was like, we were still guys in a van. We had gone across Canada, three times, in a 15 passenger van with all of our gear five guys and our sound guy Robin, who was still our front of house sound guy. You know, we've gotten coast to coast three times before we could kind of get arrested here. I guess you're right, though. Like it was fun. The I guess the struggle came when we were told when we were flatly rejected everywhere. And we thought, well, whatever. So we'll do it for a couple of months and see what happens.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. The independence was somehow part of that early success, though it was it was the ground swell, because I it's funny, actually, it's someone from your, your PR team kind of pitched you coming on, which I was delighted around. Like that was the first time I'd had a pitch from anyone of any significance to come on the show. And I thought, well, this is great. And she kind of packaged it up with this beautiful bit of copy on your story. And I just replied and said, Hey, look, I was I was in Toronto in in 93. You know, I spent six, seven weeks there hanging out with friends and including the, you know, the lakeside parties, and all I heard was the Barenaked Ladies. So yeah, no need to pitch it was. It was a fascinating time. Because, yeah, wherever you went, at that time you were you were there. Well,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I'll tell you, I'll tell you where we weren't. Was anywhere south of the Canadian border. Right? Yes. Right. We were the biggest band that Canada had ever seen. And we were complete unknowns in America, unless you had a Canadian cousin, or like yourself, you just spent a couple of weeks on a dock Lakeside in Canada. But we were playing to, you know, record setting crowds in small towns in southern Ontario, we played 14,000 People in London, Ontario. And then we drive south across the border to Detroit, and play for 400 completely disinterested people at a radio station, like DJ night. So there, there's where you can insert your struggle, right? Yeah, the moment we drove south to the border, and expected to remain famous. We were educated very quickly.
Keith Jopling:It must have been slightly bizarre, like were you thinking at that time? What's it gonna take? Or were you just kind of aware that hey, we just haven't had the big song yet. It
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:felt a little bizarre because we were such a priority for the Canadian label. And when we got to America, it took us a while to realize that despite all of the similarities between the US and Canada and the proximity and the close relationship, in terms of a record label, Canada is Germany today. Am I or Portugal? It's like, it's just another territory. And they feel like what's happening in that other place doesn't necessarily apply to the United States. And so, you know, they knew, they were told, Oh, this is the biggest band in Canada. And they didn't go, oh, well, Canada's right there. And it's a lot like America. Maybe we could put some resources behind this band and have them break here. They just went, Oh, big in Canada. Cool.
Keith Jopling:And you when you signed you, you eventually signed to Sire, what was behind that choice? Big. I mean, it was a very, very cool label. But you know, having I suppose it was too early because having got to be where you were independently. That's that's a bands dream today. But back then I guess it was still impossible to really get anywhere without a label.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, it definitely was. We were kind of indie darlings up here. And after being refused by all the labels, we then were selling out arenas across the country. And then we started to be courted by all the labels. And we decided that we really wanted to talk to a head office, we wanted to be dealing with a label in the US, not the Canadian subsidiary of the label and Seymour Stein, absolutely legendary visionary, record company mogul who signed the aforementioned Madonna and talking heads and our fellow Canadian Katie Lange. He sent this very cool producer, songwriter dude called Andy Paley. He sent Andy Paley up to see us play at a university in Ottawa, the nation's capital we, it just happened that, you know, that was the show that worked with scheduled, Andy Paley came up to see us in Ottawa. And he called Seymour Stein, after the show, and said, Give these guys whatever they want. And Seymour Stein called us and said, Andy Paley told me to give you guys whatever you want. So what do you want?
Keith Jopling:And what what was the reply? Very
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:bad negotiating on Seymour's part. But honestly, we were like, We were reasonable people. We did. We didn't ask for the moon, what was important to us was, the records would someday revert back to us. And so we negotiated for that. We didn't, you know, it was kind of the beginning of the era of massive record signings and back signing for a million dollars based on one single and, you know, that was a good bet, in the end, because back is awesome, but who knew, based on one single that he was going to be back, but massive signings were becoming kind of durig air at the time. And we just didn't do that, because we thought, well, whatever they give us, we owe them through garnished wages, basically. So we made a very reasonable ask, and we push for the things that were important to us. And we sent them off to sire and Seymour and the deal was done in a matter of days.
Keith Jopling:So you were very Canadian about it in effect.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I guess that's it, we were polite. We were respectful, and we knew our place on the planet. And
Keith Jopling:then, you know, a Gordon was kind of the official version of, of the yellow tape anyway. So that was going to that was always going to be, you know, huge. And you knew that. But what I read going back was the follow up was actually got difficult. So it did get difficult quite early on, you know, Andy Korean left the band, there was some kind of early tensions, or at least you know, what I read between you and your co founder, Steven page on the album, maybe I should drive? What happened? Why was there such tensions at that point? Because at that point, you you'd made it big, at least in Canada, you've made it big. Yeah.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I think part of the tension came from what that early success made us feel. And I think it really heaped an enormous amount of pressure on Steve. And for me, I felt like oh, well. They liked what we do. So we should just keep doing what we do. And I think Steve found that really frustrating and Maybe it added to the pressure he was feeling. I think he felt, you know, I'm speaking for him. I don't know everything he was going through at that time. But I know that he was feeling the pressure to follow up, Gordon, and I was feeling like, oh, well, we're never going to repeat that success. So who cares, let's just go make another record. I was maybe a little flippant about it at the time. And that caused some tension between us. And then to add to the kind of difficulty and how you follow that up, I lost my older brother in a motorcycle accident. And it really threw me, and I just didn't really feel like writing. And so Steve was feeling all of this pressure to equal or exceed the success, the early success we'd had with Gordon, I was feeling like, well, you know, we're fine. Whatever we write is gonna be fine. But also, I don't really feel like writing right now. So it probably was a recipe for disaster, psychologically, for Steve. So I think I wasn't much help to him at that time, unfortunately. And then, you know, we went in and made a record with Ben manku is a real facility is kind of like, clinical. He's an incredible musician, and a lovely, lovely guy. But he had a hard time with the dynamic of, you know, five, early 20s. Kids with that we're on the heels of a lot of success. And I think there was a lot of friction in that relationship, despite how much we liked and respected Ben, and loved the records he had done. I think it was typical kind of growing pains, I guess, and in some ways, but you know, I think Steve was definitely feeling the pressure to continue the success of Gordon and I was just feeling a little disengaged, I guess, I
Keith Jopling:mean, did you get any kind of support, you know, from from whoever was around you, I, you know, either label or, you know, people around you studio making the records or even at home? How do you how do you kind of push on through? Well,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I, you know, for my personal stuff, dealing with the loss of my brother, I credit, Tyler Stewart primarily as my support system during that time, aside from my wife, of course, at home, but I was on the road a lot. And Tyler was my roommate in those early days. And yeah, he was an incredible support through that time. The label, I feel like the label was largely uninvolved at that point. Because we had such an indie story. And they really felt like the label, you know, grabbed on to a comment, and we're just kind of riding along with us. And so when it came time to make our follow up record, they kind of stayed out of it. We didn't meet an a&r person until we made stunt. You know, that's, that's the beginning of 9898. Yeah. So we made four records before we really had any kind of input or intervention from the label.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. And it was, it's, I guess, an unusual story. And you would probably not even hear about it now to be four albums in and then finally, you know, you did really smash through into the US, actually, within one week, which was a billboard number one, I mean, you just don't get any bigger. And that was another surprise, wasn't it? Because, you know, read back that you didn't think it was anything in particular, but the label did. So maybe so one of those examples where the, the label got it, right.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Absolutely. I thought it was fun and silly, but I didn't think it was even going to be on the record. I thought it would make a great besides. Again, like, like internal Dynamo was something that was indicative of what we did live. And I guess I learned the lesson back then that what people like about your live show, they might also enjoy on your record. So it was Sue Drew, who was our new a&r person at the time, Sue called me and said, We're going to lead off with one week and I actually laughed because I thought she was making fun of me. Like I thought it was a little jab, like Yeah, we're gonna leave with your stupid song that you improvised. And I was I'm incredulous. I really did not believe that she was serious about that. Tyler didn't like the recording at all. He was hanging out with ani DeFranco in Austin, Texas while we layered on all the guitars and all the kind of interesting, you know, he played the bed track and took off for five hours. And we put all the layers into the song all the keyboards, all the guitars. And Ty came back. He said, It just sounds busy and self indulgent. I'm not into it. Number one.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, it was the rap was done it. I mean, it was it was so it was original at the time as well, right? I mean, nobody was quite doing that. Well, you
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:know, and I credit a lot of the original sound of that recording, to Susan Rogers, and David Leonard, who shared production duties on that song, because the demo was a relatively crappy drum loop, like an A standard kind of 808, early Hip Hop drum loop and me doing the rap. And, you know, there were some chords under it, but it was, it was way more Beastie Boys than anything else. And I remember Susan said, That drum loop is not very cool. She's just trying to be diplomatic. And we all just burst out laughing. But she was right. And so because of her encouragement and input, it became way more of a live rock band track, you know, that's us playing live together. And it has the energy of a rock band. And it really transformed that song into something Tyler did not like Yeah,
Keith Jopling:yeah. And transformed you you into something else entirely. Because obviously was a huge break in the US. I know, the US was starting to kind of warm to you in some ways, but that that was the one that broke you through and also in the next the first time we I'd heard you, of course, but it's the first time anybody else had heard of you in in the UK in Europe? I mean, it was top five in the UK.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, I think we, I think we did one week on Top of the Pops. Right. The interesting thing about that, though, when things exploded with stunt, we had already experienced this in Canada with Gordon. So it was it was like a dress rehearsal for the success that came with stunt. So we knew it was going to go away. You know, as you alluded to, it's it's sort of common for bands to enjoy the rise into the stratosphere and not think about the impending free fall back to Earth. I was ready for it that time. You know, I joked about it constantly. I was I was saying, Well, guys, you know, the best part of a roller coaster is the ride back down. So I was, you know, I think in some ways that was a coping mechanism, a bit of a defense mechanism to say to myself to kind of steal myself for the eventual return to normality. But, of course, it never came in the way it did with Gordon and Gordon things basic. You know, in the early 90s, our success in Canada waned severely, and we had not made any headway anywhere else. So we were now you know, barely making enough money to continue the band with no realistic hope, have another success like we'd had with Gordon. So you know, the post, born on a pirate ship, intense, grueling touring away from home for 18 months straight. And I was calling my manager going, I don't think I can do this anymore. Like I could make more money, managing a McDonald's, and I've got a daughter now I'm away from home all the time. I don't think I can do this. And then Terry said, Just give me six more months. And over those six months, Brian Wilson and old apartment both from the live record both cracked the top 40 in America, and we started to play bigger and bigger and bigger places. And the US was just primed for the release of stunt. I think it debuted at number two in America and we sold I don't know, like in right away. We sold about 6 million copies of it and in the end, I think it's closer to 10
Keith Jopling:you It's a classic album, though. I mean, it's, you know, the right through. I mean, it's, I think a went down on, you know, it was on those best of lists for that year. You know, in US, UK, really just brought you to a new worldwide audience did it? Did you have to make a choice at that point between the US and Europe as a, as barriers that you could focus? Because, I mean, they're both huge. Yeah,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:we did. And what we wanted to do was, was really focus on Canada, UK and US. Because I think whether this is right or not, we really felt that our music leaned heavily on language. And there's a lot of fairly sophisticated things happening in the lyric that, you know, we went to Germany, we tried to tour in Germany. And we did okay, like, we were playing prestigious little places. And but I think we were a bit perplexing to anyone for whom English was a second language. It was tough, we debated, you know, are we going to spend some time trying to build things in South America? And in the end, really, it was a, it was a lifestyle call, we're like, do we want to try and become huge all over the world? Because it's just time investment at the end of the day, and it may not work because this, the band is so dependent on the nuance of language. So we thought, why don't we focus on our strengths and tour heavily in America, UK and Canada. And then instead, in that following month, instead of trying to get around Europe and South America, the month after that, why don't we go home and take some time off? We realized it was a trade off. Like I remember having the discussion. Yes, we will not be as big as we might possibly be. But I need to spend some time with my family. And I kind of don't care if we become a bigger rock band than we already are.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, sounds like a very smart decision.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Well, who knows? You know, we could have had some sort of massive success outside of those places. I doubt it. And, you know, made the early call for sanity rather than exhausting and unending promotion. So I'm here to tell the tale. So it was the right call, I guess. But who knows what it could have been.
Keith Jopling:Keith, here, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform you listen to. Back to the conversation. Well, you mentioned, you know, the, the lyrical side of of what you do, and I agree, I think it's it was such an unusual thing and sailing pretty close to the wind at times as well. Because I think bringing humor into music, I've always considered that to be something of a risk. And it's I know, it was something that you did right from the beginning. You were inspired to do that. And it was sort of part of what you do live and you brought it into record. But it's it doesn't always work does it? I mean, is it something that you've that you were debating at that point? Because it's become really really huge at that point. Did you think okay, maybe it's time to add it up? Literally just get more serious?
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, I think it is challenging for people for some reason. I think they they forget there was there was a British band that did it. Really well. The name escapes me. Oh, the Beatles.
Keith Jopling:Well, I thought you were gonna say The Divine Comedy. I was like, okay, but yeah, yeah, the the Beatles. Definitely.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Divine Comedy is another great example. The house Martins. Like, yeah, humor is incredibly. It's a very sophisticated thing. And if you don't do it, right, then you become a novelty. And people put that word out there for our band more than 1000 times over the years. But it was never what we were humor was just part of the way we related to each other and the way we told stories and wrote songs. It was a, it was an intrinsic part of the way we related to everything. Yeah. And so it came out in our songs, but it was never just a gag or a novelty, it was just a part of who we were. So it would have been disingenuous to try and leave it out of how we wrote music and how we did live shows. I think it made it difficult to categorize the band and it made it difficult, you know, for the record company to kind of sell the band or whatever. But I think when people saw the band live, they got it right away. And festivals in the UK and Europe were great for that. Because festival culture in the UK is very different from North America. And in North America, you get these, like, modern rock fest, and it's like, every band is from the same tiny genre slice. Yeah. And, you know, the first time we played Glastonbury in the early 90s, are like, Oh, this is the greatest thing ever. Because that the music is so diverse. The lineup is like, so bonkers compared to what you would see in North America. And so I think we were put in front of a lot of eyeballs that, you know, from all different genres of music, and I think people just really responded to the live show the band, which was fun and energetic, and it had some silliness and lack of self awareness in it. Maybe that was refreshing. You know, it was it was, it was the time of the shoe gazer in the UK. And then out comes this Canadian band, doing choreographed hip hop dancing, and beautiful, like five part harmony. And, you know, I think we were just unlike anything else and kind of unapologetically. So.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, and you tapped into, you know, that self deprecating thing that we have over here. Anyway. So I think, you know, I could see you fitting right in at Glastonbury. And also just speaking of The Beatles, I mean, maca became a fan did and he didn't need sort of, at some point, you know, praise the way you guys harmonized and said that that's the music he would like to make at that time. So that must have been a huge compliment.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I still to this day, have trouble believing that those quotes are attributed to Paul McCartney. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's a compliment in the highest order. We're all massive fans, like anybody who's ever written a song is. It's funny, like, I'm such a fan of Beatles as a recording act, but they blow me away even more as a live act. And as a media presence, like that's that was a big inspiration for us actually, was the way they handled interviews and their live shows in front of 120 decibel screaming crowd, with no monitors, and just the house PA system. And you listen to those recordings, and they're one of the greatest ever. Like, and now like, we're like, we have the best gear on the planet. And we're like, Oh, can you just can can the keyboards just come down a little bit? Can you pan my guitar a little bit to the left, and we're still out of tune. They, they're incredible. And McCartney's still incredible. Live shows like three hour live shows. The guy's amazing.
Keith Jopling:Well, you mentioned earlier Terry, Terry McBride, who was you assigned to to network management, and having worked with one legend already with with seamless status. Sire, I remember Terry was you came across as a real visionary at the time, you know, this, you know, I was in a job for the Recording Industry, Trade body. And we were just everybody was terrified by Napster. And we were, you know, we even had the US branch of, of who we were kind of suing people for, for downloading music and Terry came across as this huge visionary. How was it working with him? And did he kind of try to experiment you at some experiment on you at some point because he was kind of into that? Let's do let's do things entirely differently.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah. Terry, you know, I think he was seen as a visionary at the time because he was like, he saw the transition to digital and and even streaming Long before anybody else was ready for it, and he saw a way to promote a band using the resources of a label without the kind of deficiencies of any huge major label, conglomerate bureaucratic system. What Terry would do is do all the work and give the label all the credit. He was on the phone 26 hours a day, eight days a week calling and essentially trading. Sarah McLaughlin's good name to get us on bills. And yeah, you can have Sarah McLaughlin. And if you'll take Barenaked Ladies early on the bill and, or he put us on a bill and say you don't have to pay him at all. But I guarantee you that will be the highlight of your show. And then you're going to pay me double next year. He just went to the wall for this band. I remember Bruce Allen, who was Bryan Adams, lifetime manager, Bruce Allen is very old school. And tear McBride was very new school and and Bruce was like, nice. He's like a computer nerd gone wrong. Bruce just had no time or patience for Terry, who was very, you know, touchy feely yoga, vegetarian. Yeah. New School of Management. This is a, this is a family, you know, we're going to do this the right way. And he he's an interesting guy. I still love Terry was great to see him when we, when we were inducted into the Hall of Fame of the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. We made sure Terry was at all of the parties and all the special events. And I give him an enormous amount of credit for breaking this band in the US. And yeah, he's he's, he's a very weird dude. But he's the guy I adore.
Keith Jopling:Because at that time, I remember you were one of the bands. I remember looking at who were kind of just experimenting with, with the format as well, I think you said, you know, we're just going to do singles from now on, and you were doing different things other than just making another album. And it looked like that was going to be the thing for the industry. It was your we were all unsure about whether the album was going to survive and and what it was like to what it was going to be like to just be in a band.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Yeah, well, I remember when Napster started killing the industry in the industry's reaction was to sue college kids. And I said to the label at the time, just be better than Napster. Yeah. Some kid wrote this in his dorm room, like you have all the resources in the world. The takeaway from here should not be it's easy to steal music, we have to, you know, we have to barricade the vaults and and attack anybody who's trying to cross the moat. The takeaway should be this is how people want to get their music. And if early on, the major labels had just said, Okay, how about you have access to everything, and it won't be full of viruses. And it'll be the actual version, and it'll be a full quality version, and you just have to pay a little bit. If they just gotten on board with that. Early on, we'd have a completely different landscape now.
Keith Jopling:And that's, of course, where we are now. You know, it's interesting to me, you it is detailed, for sure. 17 studio album, I lost count, because there's so many compilations and live albums. Yeah,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:it's 16 or 17. And it's up there.
Keith Jopling:So comparing releasing an album now, with added back in the days of stunt, what's different for you as the creator of that piece of work? Well,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:everything, you know, I make a record now, for its own sake, really. I make a record, imagining putting a new chapter of what I'm thinking into the world. And I'm thinking about how those songs are going to translate live. What I'm not thinking about is selling a single record, because it's just gone. You know, for all but a handful of artists that are on top of the charts at any given moment. There's a couple of solo artists and bands selling hundreds of 1000s of records and a couple are selling Millions, but we're selling 10s of 1000s of records now, and yet, we go out, and we sell out the biggest venues in North America, we, you know, we pre sold 120,000 tickets to our summer tour, it's like the math just doesn't make any sense. So in some ways, it removes the notion of trying to make a successful record, you know, in terms of data points, so it shifts the focus to, let's make a really good record. Because the point of this record is, fans are going to listen to it, they're going to download it, however they get it, it's going to be part of their streaming service. And then they're going to want to see this stuff live. So as much as I, you know, I don't think this is a good model. But it's the model we have, right now. There are many pluses to it, there's more people listening to music than ever in history. And so we have enormous opportunities to reach people in ways that we couldn't before. But it's very difficult to monetize, it's very, you have to be really careful about the money you spend making a record because the assumption is, it's it's it's promotional money basically spent, that you don't have a lot of hope of earning back. So the entire paradigm has shifted in a way that is manageable for us. Because, you know, we're a band with a very long career and a huge fan base. But, you know, my son is just starting a band, they're just starting to play clubs. And in Toronto, they had their first two club gigs before everything went into lockdown. So he's actually just got his first gig post pandemic is coming up in a week. And I think, how is he going to make a living out of this? Like, how is it possible? I don't, you know, on one hand, they have the kind of tools that we never had. And not just recording tools, but all the social media reach that they have immediate access to. But on the flip side of that is they're competing against such noise in, you know, everyone has access to those same tools. So I wouldn't want to be starting Barenaked Ladies this year.
Keith Jopling:I was gonna say, Well, what, you're the guy to give you some advice, I guess. Because, you know, back in the day, you made it as an independent band. But I that was a different time then. But that it as I said, That's the dream for every band these days?
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Well, I don't, you know, but nothing we did. could ever be used as a roadmap for today. Yeah, like, it's just, it's a different reality today. So I, you know, I'm trying not to be overbearing Hall of Fame dad, telling him what to do, because in some ways, some of the joy of it is figuring it out. Yeah. But what I do tell him is, you have to be great live every time and take every gig. You know, I think he was a little disheartened. The other day, he said, Dad, we got an offer for a gig. And, you know, this person reached out to us to play like a private party somewhere that this fancy Lake House kind of thing. And, you know, I don't know what to write back, like, what should I ask her? You know, she asked how much we want to get paid, like, what should I write back? And I said, Well, you're worth nothing. So that's what you should tell her, you should go back to her and say, we're going to need to rent a PA, we're going to need to rent a van, you know, blah, blah, blah. So those, it's going to cost us about $1,000 to do the gig. So if you can cover that. We'd be happy to do it. And I think you have to lead that's that's what we did in the beginning. We just took every day. Yeah, you're opening a bakery? Sure. We'll play outside. Oh, you're having a symbolic tree planting and apart? Yeah, we'll come in and sing like we did every live gig always thinking that it'll lead to the next thing that will be a little bit bigger. But my advice to allow was just take the gig. Don't Don't ask her to pay you five grand You're not worth five grand.
Keith Jopling:And by the time you know something comes along. That is an opportunity. Just you when you know that you've honed your craft I think that's when you're turning those You're kind of creating your own good luck, because you've practiced your art. So just my final couple of questions because I know we're out of time is having been confined, you know, to the lake side and, and probably had a pretty good lockdown. As a result, you've obviously been deprived from doing what you love, which is playing live as a band. But I think the selfie cam jams have just been a really, really cool thing. So just tell me about how they're made? And what are you going to do about that format, when things come back on stream in real life, you're going to continue to do that, because I think it's just a fantastic format that you've discovered. Yeah,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:it was actually Edward pond, my my good friend who's been shooting a lot of the BNL stuff over the last couple of years. It was early into the lockdown when Edward said, you know, if you guys performed remotely, as long as you're in the same tempo and the same key, I can put it together after the fact. And it probably be pretty convincing. And you know, it'll sound good, it'll look great. They were very rudimentary at first, and they got more and more sophisticated as we did more of them. But essentially, I would perform the song, and then send my video to the other three guys, they would listen to me performing it, and then they would just play along, right. And then we edited them all together. You know, now we're capturing the audio in Pro Tools, we're, we're mixing, you know, so as each guy plays he's playing with, you know, two guys or three guys. And so there's room for a little more nuance, we're actually properly mixing the tracks. And Edwards gotten a lot more adventurous with how he's cutting them together. But it was really It started on a lark as a way to remain engaged and beat the boredom and reach out to people and point people to some ways they could help different charities. And I think everybody, everybody was starved for entertainment, including ourselves. So it's
Keith Jopling:just such a nice way that you put it together and with the, you know, the charity messages as well, of course, you're doing some good, but I've seen so many of the live streams, you know, from the early stuff in the bedrooms to the, you know, the Dua Lipa kind of super shows. But the only other thing I've seen, which is, which is like what you've done is what a British band called elbow, we're doing something similar. And it's just so nice to see. The way you you pieced it together and the care that's that's gone into it. So really have enjoyed that. Yeah,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:it was pretty guerilla styles. And I think people appreciated the just the effort, and they knew it was Lo Fi and didn't care, because we were we were just having fun with it. You know?
Keith Jopling:Well look at it's been great to talk to you, you've had an amazing run this new record is fantastic. But you can't play it live. What is the kind of way in which you want to keep this, this record going for a while until you can take it on the road in 2022? Well, yeah,
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:I mean, it was a decision to put it out, just get it out, because we wanted people to hear it. We were We debated holding it until we could actually tour it. But you know, it'll be the focus of the tour when we get back out on the road. And I don't think there's, you know, if that's six months or eight months from now, you know, I don't think it really matters at the end of the day. If anything, people will have had more time to live with the record. And yeah, they'll be able to sing along with more songs at the time they see us. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:look, I look forward to the point where we can see that because there's you've got some anthems on there. And I'm sure the Craig's get ready to sing those songs to you. And it's been a great pleasure talking to you and I wish you all the best and and thanks for joining us on the show. Look forward to whatever you do next.
Ed Robertson, Barenaked Ladies:Thank you. Great talking to you. Thanks for having me on.
Unknown:Cheers