The Archetypes That Drive Us in Life and Law

Episode 21: The Archetypes That Drive Us in Life and Law

Have you ever noticed how you show up differently depending on the room you're in? In this episode, Karen, Mo, and Mike explore the inner archetypes that shape our thoughts, work, and connections, particularly in the world of trial law.

Karen reflects on her transformation from Disco Karen to Martha Stewart Karen to Trial Karen, each persona tied to survival, tradition, love, and strength. Mo breaks down the different aspects of himself, from Little Mo to Ruthless Mo to Wise Mo, explaining how trauma has shaped these versions and how naming them has given him clarity and control. Mike shares how making music helps him access his most authentic self, the version where everything else falls away.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

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Transcript

The Archetypes Within Us

Karen Koehler 0:05

All right, I thought today that we would talk about how many Mo's are in you, how many Karen's are in me, how many Mark's are in you the different aspects of our personality.

Mo Hamoudi 0:16

Archetypes, archetypes. That is what I've been taught recently they are as our archetypes.

Karen Koehler 0:22

Do you want to go first? Why don't you go first?

Mo Hamoudi 0:24

No, you go first. Okay, well, let me hear you.

Karen Koehler 0:27

So you know, you hear, especially in the office. You know we've been talking about you don't celebrate enough, and this and that.

Mo Hamoudi 0:35

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 0:35

And people also kind of talk about oh well, I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert.

Mo Hamoudi 0:40

Yeah, right, yeah.

Karen Koehler 0:41

Which is such an oversimplification of who we are. I mean all these labels, or we take these personality tests and you know, I'm strategic, I'm this, I'm that or I'm not, and that's supposed to define you too. That's supposed to define us, but what I've come to see is that we all have different people in us, personas for different occasions, and I thought we would start talking about it. So I'm going to tell you a story.

Mo Hamoudi 1:08

Tell me a story.

Karen Koehler 1:10

So I'm going to tell you a story. Tell me a story. So I was a married person at one time in my life.

Mo Hamoudi 1:14

You Married no.

Karen Koehler 1:16

If you can even imagine.

Mo Hamoudi 1:18

I cannot imagine I was.

Karen Koehler 1:21

And I was a good little wife.

Mo Hamoudi 1:23

I had a very Did you just say good, little wife.

Karen Koehler 1:25

I had a very A dominant spouse and I was the one that kept the peace. So I was. I mean, if you want to talk about a whole, totally different person, you would not have recognized me. But I digress. So I remember we were at a dinner. It was a large dinner. It was mainly you know, his friends were my friends, like I just kind of adopt all of his friends. You know, when you're married you kind of yeah. So there was probably I don't know five, six, seven couples around a table.

Mo Hamoudi 1:58

Right.

Karen Koehler 1:59

And I'd known most of them for a couple of years. Yeah, some better than others. And midway through the meal somebody said something, and one of the people I still remember his name David Hughes. Okay, he was, uh, he was Hawaiian and he used to. He had a short career with the Seahawks, I think. Um, this is way back, and he could kind of he said out of the blue, said you're a lawyer. He was literally stunned because I didn't act like a lawyer, I just act like a sweet little.

Mo Hamoudi 2:37

Sweet little.

Karen Koehler 2:38

Sweet little person, and so that got me thinking this morning. You know, when you ruminate about weird stuff that pops into your head, about the different aspects of a personality.

Mo Hamoudi 2:51

Okay, so what aspect of the personality was that?

Karen Koehler 2:54

Well, like, okay, that was one that I've put away. That was my Martha Stewart phase of life, which I just gave after I was married. I never looked at Martha Stewart again.

Mo Hamoudi 3:03

Okay, can I ask some questions about Martha Stewart Karen?

Karen Koehler 3:08

Well, let me tell you about my favorite one was before that, before I got married, it was Disco Cairn.

Mo Hamoudi 3:14

Okay, Disco Cairn.

Karen Koehler 3:14

Okay, which was a completely different person than Martha Stewart Cairn. I used to say that I was a chameleon because I could be so many different things to so many different people. I still have that ability, and I don't even know why that is. What is that about a person that you can do that? But in the office, I am serious, karen.

Mo Hamoudi 3:36

Serious Karen.

Karen Koehler 3:37

I am, I'm pretty intense.

Mo Hamoudi 3:39

Yes.

Karen Koehler 3:39

And I just kind of work a lot.

Mo Hamoudi 3:41

I know.

Karen Koehler 3:43

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 3:43

Inaccessible.

Karen Koehler 3:47

You just sit in your office. That's not true, I walk around. Sometimes. But I can be daunting and I don't even see that about myself yes yeah, so these are some of the little. Tell me more, what else?

Mo Hamoudi 4:00

well, what I want to know is how did disco karen become martha stewart karen well, that was called the horrible institution of marriage okay, the institution of marriage.

Karen Koehler 4:09

I was also you also in my very early 20s and I probably I'm glad that I got married because I had three children that I love. But in retrospect, why do we get married? This is going to take us on a whole other topic. Why do we make the decisions that we do?

Mo Hamoudi 4:25

I just read an article that was fantastic about the institution of marriage is that the primary driving force of the institution of marriage was economics, was that people needed to be provided for. And then that dynamic starts to radically change when women find empowerment through employment and success. And then that's why women are like I don't really need to get married. I mean, in a lot of ways they're like why do I need to get married? Because you know the incentives are not there. The external incentives are not there. My question is did Disco Karen become Martha Stewart Karen because she wanted a guy to take care of her?

Karen Koehler 5:03

I know, Okay then why that was completely not it. I think it's more complicated than that, then what is that?

Mo Hamoudi 5:13

I mean, I don't want to have that conversation here. Okay, that's not fair. We talk about. Okay, that's not fair.

Karen Koehler 5:17

Mike, she says, okay, this is so off topic we're supposed to talk about the people inside of us.

Mo Hamoudi 5:23

That's the inside of you. I will tell you.

Karen Koehler 5:25

Okay, I will tell you. I've never, ever exactly figured out exactly 100% why, but I have many suspicions.

Mo Hamoudi 5:33

Okay, let's hear them.

Karen Koehler 5:34

Number one I do think that there was a traditional you know there were traditional bones in my body about, like I guess that's what you're supposed to do when you reach a certain age. Yeah, and you know, I was in love, he was in love, okay, love tradition. Love so.

Mo Hamoudi 5:52

And young. I mean you said you were pretty.

Mike Todd 5:54

That's six years younger than when I got married.

Karen Koehler 5:57

Youthful energy tradition and he was very traditional, which was always. You know, I wasn't really sure about that, but I was willing to do that and that's the question I've never really been sure about because I am not traditional in so many other ways. I think it was because of my life experience up to them and my life experience. So this was in the early 80s. As you know, in the 80s, early 80s, mid-80s, aids had just been. Aids was a raging epidemic and, like you didn't, you know, I think there was safety in marriage from that okay, that's interesting you know, I think that I perceived safety, not perceived yeah perceived safety.

Mike Todd 6:46

That's right.

Karen Koehler 6:46

Mike, I mean, you know, I don't know exactly why no?

Mo Hamoudi 6:53

you've identified some qualities.

Karen Koehler 6:55

These are some of the reasons. I think that, probably in the back of my head, I thought well, you know, they always say that women marry for biology. Like, okay, well, would I have children? Okay, well, well with this person. And I guess you know that's another issue can I put out a potential suggestion?

Mo Hamoudi 7:18

yeah how about just wanting to be with somebody, okay, who sees you for who you are?

Karen Koehler 7:26

and being with don't know that they ever saw me for who I was.

Mo Hamoudi 7:30

I'm not saying. I'm saying that maybe that was ultimately the outcome. Understanding. But at the first instant when you go into a relationship and say I want to be with you for the rest of my life, what you're doing is saying that I want to be your partner in life and I want you to see me for who I am, and you want them to see you for who you are.

Karen Koehler 7:54

I was not that evolved.

Mo Hamoudi 7:55

Okay.

Karen's Many Personas Revealed

Karen Koehler 7:57

And what I remember is that when we went and got married I mean we had the marriage ceremony as soon as it was over I wanted to go back to my parents' home. I did not want to go.

Mo Hamoudi 8:15

You didn't want to hang out with them.

Karen Koehler 8:18

I remember feeling like I want that's when I freaked out Like he freaked out before we got married, like oh, not freaked out, but you know he was a little nervous beforehand. I was never nervous until right when I got married. Then I was like oh, oh crap.

Mike Todd 8:36

What did I?

Karen Koehler 8:36

do. I'm here and I wanted to be there, but I also kind of wanted to like go back to my, my mommy's and daddy's house. It was a weird thing. I told him about it.

Mo Hamoudi 8:49

So it wasn't Romeo Romeo. Wherefore art thou Romeo? There wasn't the romance.

Karen Koehler 8:54

No, there was Romeo.

Mo Hamoudi 8:56

Romeo.

Karen Koehler 8:57

Okay, that's why I'm saying like this is weird, this is I told you you were going to take us completely off topic.

Mo Hamoudi 9:02

I didn't. We're talking about the personality of Disco Karen turning into Martha Stewart. Karen.

Karen Koehler 9:07

And what?

Mo Hamoudi 9:08

you've described to me. What you've described to me tell me if I'm wrong is that there are a variety of external factors culture, times and wanting to do what you believed was correct in the context of where you were in your life that drove you towards this particular direction, plus romance, and I think that that's.

Karen Koehler 9:32

I also had an unhealthy ability to make myself into what I thought the other person wanted.

Mo Hamoudi 9:40

That's interesting.

Karen Koehler 9:41

Yeah.

Mike Todd 9:43

Don't you think, though I mean to get back on topic a little bit.

Karen Koehler 9:46

You've had a very successful marriage.

Mike Todd 9:49

Well, it hasn't been easy. I'd say that I mean it's both for her and for me.

Karen Koehler 9:54

Yeah, but I think that that's. You guys have been married for what? 30 years, 30 years, yeah.

Mike Todd 9:59

Well, it'll be 30 years in August.

Karen Koehler 10:01

You better do something nice.

Mike Todd 10:03

We're going to.

Karen Koehler 10:04

Amsterdam.

Mike Todd 10:05

Oh nice. But to get back on topic, don't you think that your other personalities come out at times when they're needed? Yes, when it's like you said, after your wedding, you sort of regressed into what you were in a younger person, where, when you're in trial against a firm that's working for a giant corporation, you're going to turn into someone else. You're going to turn into someone else who's got some armor and might be a little bit more forceful than another part of yourself.

Karen Koehler 10:49

I have always been a very good advocate for others and not for myself. That's something that's very common. But trial Karen is completely her own being. That's the performative part is completely her own being. That's the performative part. I've always said the most related people that I've talked to are like actors, and it's not that I'm acting, but we are literally up there giving a performance of life. Well, it is a performance.

Mike Todd 11:24

Yeah, you know, speaking in front of a jury is very much a performance. I think, and that's one of the reasons why you know, when you see younger attorneys they're not often ready for that, because they were kind of taught to be that prototypical lawyer.

Karen Koehler 11:39

Yeah.

Mike Todd 11:40

And they need to work into their persona.

Karen Koehler 11:44

Yeah, yeah, and normally see how pleasant I am You're very pleasant Well I took a deposition last week of an expert. It lasted 21 minutes.

Mo Hamoudi 11:56

And it wasn't pleasant.

Karen Koehler 11:57

I was horrible the whole time.

Mike Todd 11:58

As you talk about that, can you quickly explain the difference between deposing an expert and a layperson?

Karen Koehler 12:06

Yeah, like this guy had been hired about 2,000 times and he was a professional witness and normally you know when people take, when most people take expert depositions, they take hours and I've gotten into the part, into the point where I don't want to take more than an hour, so it's kind of almost like a gold. See how quick I can take it. I don't ask them anything about their background, because they gave me a cv and all I have to do is look at one of the other thousand transcripts to see um what they're gonna say what their background is.

Karen Koehler 12:37

I don't even know what your school was and this or that I can ask. Ask that three questions and shut it down. But I want to get right there to like, and they gave me a report. I don't need to go over anything that they said because it's all written down there. They're going to have to stick to that. I want to do a couple other things, but that is more ruthless, karen. Yeah, and I know you have a ruthless mo, so let's segue.

Mo Hamoudi 13:01

Segue to me yeah.

Karen Koehler 13:03

I do want to say for ruthless Karen that it can become a shock when you see it. Yeah, Um, if you're not used to it. Oh cause I'm so normally sweet and kind.

Mike Todd 13:15

Yeah, and how do clients react to that?

Karen Koehler 13:18

Oh, they love that. I mean, that's what they want.

Mo Hamoudi 13:20

Yeah, want yeah yeah, they.

Karen Koehler 13:22

They don't want me to just be sweet yeah and when you're all nice.

Mike Todd 13:25

When they come in they're like, yeah, how's this gonna work?

Karen Koehler 13:29

how is this gonna work?

Mike Todd 13:30

and then all of a sudden, I wish you'd been on.

Karen Koehler 13:33

I wish you'd been on camera, because that was wait a minute.

Mo Hamoudi 13:36

By the way, I have a picture I'm gonna give you to put, if you can, in the podcast, okay, of her making that face.

Karen Koehler 13:44

I have it, mike, I have one in my phone.

Mike Todd 13:46

I've saved it Because it's her going.

Karen Koehler 13:50

I love it Because that's how I feel yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 13:53

I'm going to send it to you, mike, okay.

Karen Koehler 13:54

All right. So to lead up to this, I was thinking about this this morning. Yeah up to this I was thinking about, I was thinking about this this morning.

Mo Hamoudi 14:05

Yeah, I was thinking what is my favorite mo to have with me?

Karen Koehler 14:07

and it is ruthless mo. Um I, I don't like ruthless mo as much as I like other parts of mo, but I like ruthless mo when I turn him loose and he calls it woof. He goes, goes, woof, as I started woofing back. That's our entire sentence to each other, like I did this, this and this and this, and then the response is woof. He's an attack dog. So I love that you have to do that.

Mo Hamoudi 14:40

Yes.

Karen Koehler 14:41

And you don't always see people doing that because it takes an extra. There's extra involved when you're ruthless.

Mike Todd 14:47

Well you have to turn it on.

Karen Koehler 14:50

And you cannot worry about the other side liking you or not.

Mo Hamoudi 14:56

I don't care if they like me or not.

Karen Koehler 14:59

So, as a lead into this, most of you watching him just think he is the nicest, most personable guy. Okay, so I was talking to this defense attorney. I said what do you think about Moe? And he said, well, I don't think he's very collegial. And he said and you know, I think the people should be more collegial, so I'm not really impressed with him. You know the jury's out. Okay, ruthless Mode, what?

Mo Hamoudi 15:28

do you want to know?

Karen Koehler 15:29

I want you to tell them what you told this guy's associate and do it just like you did it Do the whole face, do the whole thing.

Mo Hamoudi 15:41

I said to him, I said um wait, where were you? I was in a courtroom and what were you doing?

Karen Koehler 15:47

I just won significant victory okay, and what did you tell him?

Mo Hamoudi 15:52

I looked them and look at them I looked them in the eye and I said you do not want to see me in this courtroom. I will annihilate you. I will humiliate your client. You need to go talk to your client and you need to tell them that. Do you understand me?

Karen Koehler 16:16

And I saw the blood leave his face and he turned white. This is my favorite part of Mo. This is so good. I mean I was dying when he told me this because it was so good.

Mo Hamoudi 16:28

I think that's what I said, but I meant it because that's how I felt, you know yeah yes, it was necessary to be that guy at that point. It was absolutely necessary. And sometimes you have to just be ruthless because what does it feel when you're ruthless?

Karen Koehler 16:50

Tell me what you feel like when you're ruthless.

Mo Hamoudi 16:51

I feel physically powerful. I feel as though I'm grounded, I feel calm, I see things clearly. I see people's vulnerabilities they become almost enhanced and I see their weaknesses, even though they suggest they have power, and I just drain the power from them.

Karen Koehler 17:15

How do you drain it?

Mo Hamoudi 17:17

Through my words, through my presence, my physical presence, my cadence, how I speak and how I walk up to them, how I stand near them, how I look at them. It is like animal qualities that I have developed over years.

Karen Koehler 17:41

What do you think about this, mike? Have you ever did you know that he had this in him?

Mike Todd 17:47

No, not until recently, for sure. I mean, you know, I didn't really know him before he was hired here at all and so I didn't and you know, right off, he wasn't right into a case that I was part of or that I knew anything about, so it's only recently, and also on this podcast.

Karen Koehler 18:12

So imagine that you got Ruthless Mo right like that. So the way that it works out in me is I am not physical, I do not have his voice. What I do is I will say stuff like you have no case.

Mike Todd 18:35

See, but you're. I mean they call you the Velvet Amber for a reason. You're more subtle.

Karen Koehler 18:42

Well, there's a point to my words, yeah and uh, you know, and I'll mock them um, which can be very irritating yes but? But yes, we do it very differently together.

Mike Todd 18:56

It's pretty inescapable I mean, that's what I was gonna say as as that's one of the things about this firm that I like is that you often have attorneys that are complimenting each other when they go to trial, and that can make a big difference, and it also helps a lot for the younger attorneys to be able to experience that a little bit.

The Power of Ruthless Mo

Karen Koehler 19:16

Yeah, Alright, so let's not scare anybody else with Ruth this mo Tell us about some other mos.

Mo Hamoudi 19:24

Other ones are little mo.

Karen Koehler 19:26

Okay, we already talked about little mo earlier. Little mo, look it, look it, see right to little mo and there's poet mo. Well, we've heard poet mo. We've talked about that a lot.

Mo Hamoudi 19:34

There is shadow light mo. What is shadow light mo. Shadow light mo is the mo that lives between the light and the dark. He is almost in a space where he is sort of trying to figure out his life. You know, he's a little bit ambiguous. He is spiritually oriented. Then there is Wise Moe, who brings wisdom to the other Moes and helps organize them.

Karen Koehler 20:13

Who's Basketball Moe?

Mo Hamoudi 20:15

Basketball. Moe is Rascal Moe. Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascal Moe, he's just a rascal. Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascal Moe, he's just a rascal. He just likes to run around and be a little rascal on a basketball court and play. And then there's Divine.

Karen Koehler 20:31

Moe.

Mo Hamoudi 20:34

See, moe has thought about this way more than we have. Well, the archetypes that I've developed have been developing throughout my life to manage my lived experience, yeah, you know, and so it's just like been helpful to, to uh, to to live life through because you know. Otherwise you don't know why you're acting the way you're acting, I don't know. I mean, you know sometimes you're behaving a particular way, but you're really behaving a particular way because you're unconscious about a lived experience. And when you start to realize a lived experience you know a bad relationship or you know trauma or any of that you start to realize what part of me is really behaving right now. And then I think for me it was super helpful to try to organize them into distinct archetypes so that I knew what I was dealing with, and sometimes I have trouble managing them.

Karen Koehler 21:29

Well, I mean, I will admit. But I mean, you know again, you know we have a lot of differences because yes. Because I have. Many of us have trauma and then there's trauma. Trauma Like the bombs are falling. You're growing up in a war-torn country. You can hear the bombs, you know there's bad things that are happening to you throughout your childhood, so you have a trauma response that is a severe trauma response, and these different Mo's are helping you live.

Mo Hamoudi 22:03

Oh yeah, yeah, they help me make good decisions, but they also have made me a successful lawyer.

Karen Koehler 22:08

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 22:09

You know I mean I think that, but I think that where I'm comfortable is talking about them to people at work. You know that's important Because at the end of the day I need to feel safe.

Karen Koehler 22:20

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 22:22

With the people I'm working with. And I don't mean that physical safety, mike, I mean like safety Vulnerability. Yeah, and so that I know that I'm with people who know me. And so, yeah, I mean, how many archetypes do you have that? You've identified a couple.

Karen Koehler 22:39

Well, I'm not as thoughtful as you are, I'm not as self-aware.

Mo Hamoudi 22:45

I disagree with that, maybe.

Karen Koehler 22:48

So much of me is internal.

Mo Hamoudi 22:50

That you just haven't externalized.

Karen Koehler 22:51

Yeah, I can't even tell you what was I knew back then, because I went through therapy of how did I get into this situation? And a lot of it is a lot of it is a lot of it is what are you attracted to and why? Like the mystery of that, and it typically involves your parents.

Mo Hamoudi 23:15

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 23:16

And my mother, you know, as I've told you before, she was, you know, very manic bipolar. She was a manic bipolar with no down.

Mo Hamoudi 23:25

There's such a thing no down.

Karen Koehler 23:27

No, there was never depression, it was just manic High and higher and and so but then.

Mo Hamoudi 23:38

So like did you have an archetype that helped manage that relationship? Well, that's why I'm compartmentalized okay, and so, like you, would compartmentalize different aspects. Archetypes like younger karen, little k.

Karen Koehler 23:52

Well, for me it was more simple, I think, and not as I don't know. I'm still trying to figure some of this stuff out and some of it I don't want to figure out. I understand, but what you're trying to do is protect yourself, right, and you want more certainty or more stability, and so you figure stuff out.

Mo Hamoudi 24:15

But I I mean, I got a mouth on me for a reason and I'm fast for a reason, because I needed to engage with that okay okay, so that's part of me is just that's, that's an experience, right, that's an archetype that you're describing yeah that you had to like pace yourself to manage that relationship and be in that relationship.

Karen Koehler 24:35

Yeah, the pace was just like full steam ahead.

Mo Hamoudi 24:38

I mean, little Mo was needed was the person that got love. Ruthless Mo doesn't get love.

Karen Koehler 24:51

Yeah you know, but Ruthless Mo doesn't need it. Yeah, I was going to say he doesn't want it, he doesn't want love. Yeah, you know, but Ruthless Moe doesn't need it.

Mike Todd 24:54

Yeah, I was going to say he doesn't want it.

Karen Koehler 24:55

He doesn't want it, right? Yeah, that's right. He's rejected it.

Mo Hamoudi 24:58

Yeah, and so I always think that, like I don't know, I mean, I think it would be an interesting exercise to sit down and actually like, imagine there's a conference room.

Karen Koehler 25:08

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 25:09

And all the sides of you you've invited and you would say like who's?

Karen Koehler 25:13

who.

Mo Hamoudi 25:14

And then put them at the table.

Karen Koehler 25:15

Well, you've known me for a year. Haven't you formed impressions? How many Karens are there?

Mo Hamoudi 25:24

I have identified at a minimum four archetypes.

Mike Todd 25:28

I was going to say four. What are they? I was going to say four, at least.

Mo Hamoudi 25:31

Yeah, four at least. One is the maternal archetype.

Karen Koehler 25:35

I definitely have that you have one of the strongest maternal archetypes. I do.

Mo Hamoudi 25:38

I have seen. The other one is like beyond ruthless.

Mike Todd 25:48

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 25:48

Almost like a savage, like a dangerous beast.

Karen Koehler 25:54

Did you just say yeah, I did yeah yeah, like it's savage, like it's.

Mo Hamoudi 25:59

I've identified that archetype but it's not.

Mike Todd 26:03

It's not a bad thing.

Mo Hamoudi 26:04

Savage is a tough word to use okay can I just, can I just defend the word real quick, go ahead. Okay, savage, I think is is not a bad word. I think it's an incredible positive way to describe the fact that your ruthlessness is so unpredictable that it's almost savage and it's like it's an incredible strength. It terrifies people. So I think it's a positive word, but I'm willing to give it up.

Mike Todd 26:31

I just feel that savage brings forth the idea that it's uncontrolled, and it's not. That's. My thing is that it's a very controlled, powerful position. I don't know what I would use necessarily to describe it, but when it's turned on, it's scary. Yeah, yeah.

Karen Koehler 26:50

Well, because I think what I do is I'm very calculated and fast, so so it seems like I haven't thought it through, but one of my things about me, if you know me, is how fast I process yes, yes so I'm always, I always think yes very rarely.

Karen Koehler 27:10

You know you should think before you speak that I only hear that when I'm like everything's off, Like I'm not on, Like I'm just being lazy with my kids and I say something stupid, Because otherwise, when I'm in this arena, I'm not going to say something without having thought it through. I just think it through quick and what I want to know is I mean, I'm going to have identified your weaknesses and I'm normally going to just go right at it.

Mo Hamoudi 27:38

Yes, yes.

Karen Koehler 27:40

Kind of like you, but in a totally different way. Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 27:43

The other thing is your divine archetype. You are incredibly, have divine wisdom, you have a higher consciousness, wisdom that I mean, is that three?

Origins of Our Different Selves

Mo Hamoudi 27:57

You know, that's three, you know, and so I think that that I've seen you bring to bear and calm a situation, and quick, you'll walk into a conference room and there'll be tension and you'll just speak a couple of words and it calms everything down and then you just start talking and everybody just starts listening and they trust what you're saying and you, you like, lead people towards the water. You know you go.

Mo Hamoudi 28:30

this is the way come on, let's go and you don't use any of the other two archetypes to get us there. But that's an incredible leadership quality. You have the last one. I'm going to hold back a little bit.

Karen Koehler 28:43

All right.

Mo Hamoudi 28:44

I don't want to tell you.

Karen Koehler 28:45

Uh-oh.

Mo Hamoudi 28:47

I'm not going to tell you the last one because I'm still watching it, figuring it out out.

Mike Todd 28:50

I'm still figuring it out well, I'll bring that one come on what I think is the fourth one is is private karen that you don't see very often, that likes to go to movies and likes to go running to get peace and, you know, be with her family, stuff like that, which is a totally different Karen that most people don't see you know, even people at work probably don't see it very often, if they do ever.

Mike Todd 29:22

But what I was going to say, too, about the, about the scary part, the one of the scariest things that I think that this is the reason that other attorneys are afraid sometimes is that you make a decision and you stick with it.

Karen Koehler 29:36

You know that you're right when you've made the choice.

Mike Todd 29:40

And then you don't back off, which some people will make that choice and then be like, oh, waffling back and forth, did I do the right one? I don't think you do that, at least not that I've seen.

Karen Koehler 29:54

Well, when we're talking about the decision, that needs to be stuck with, because I will change my mind.

Mike Todd 29:59

But that's different.

Karen Koehler 30:00

Yeah, so what I feel like is I don't ever make a threat. I don't like threats. I think that they're punk moves.

Karen Koehler 30:10

I think threats are just silly, and a lot of lawyers make a lot of threats. I just believe, like this is the way it's going to be and if you do this, then this is what's going to happen, and I think I've done it enough that people understand that that's true. So then it helps them make an informed decision about what they want to do next, because I am not. I'm not just making a threat that I may or may not follow through.

Mike Todd 30:37

No, you're going to follow through yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 30:40

I mean. Okay, so the fourth one, Mike kind of sort of touched on it, so I think I can talk about it. What it is is that it's because, like over the past year and some months, that we've gotten to know each other, I've gotten to know you as a friend and there is like this private aspect to karen, but there's a playfulness that is my favorite archetype, because when you are in what I call in the sandbox with karen and you know, when we call in the sandbox with Karen and we're in the sandbox and we're just playing with our toys and playing in our sandbox, I got to tell you my time almost stands still for me and it's just such a pleasurable place to be in and sometimes when we're working we're in that space and I could care about nothing else and I just want to be there and just keep going, isn't it just?

Karen Koehler 31:40

true for all of us that one of the most fun things that we can do is have fun. Yeah.

Mike Todd 31:48

Yes.

Karen Koehler 31:48

I mean, that's why we like doing this.

Identifying Each Other's Archetypes

Mo Hamoudi 31:50

You even like it yeah.

Karen Koehler 31:52

It's very fun. I mean, first of all, we get to know each other really well, but it's also pretty fun and funny and you know, I'm not motivated by a lot of things that other people are motivated by. I'm motivated to work because I like it, and I like it because, of course, you know you can talk about all the higher principles. You help people get justice and all that. But I also like it because it brings me a lot of joy. That's right, that's right.

Karen Koehler 32:22

And yeah, I mean especially when we're kicking someone's ass Again. The reason why it feels so good is because they deserve it. Yeah, the reason why it feels so good is because they deserve it. Yeah, and when you're just watching them like choking and you're just thinking you're not being gloaty because you want that lawyer to suffer, but you're looking at what that lawyer is doing, which is trying to destroy your client.

Mo Hamoudi 32:48

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 32:49

For what For an insurance company Like gross?

Mo Hamoudi 32:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For what? For an insurance company? Like gross, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're also playful and fun and kind of. I thank you, you know. So that's just. I think that's, I guess, my favorite archetype.

Karen Koehler 33:06

Yeah, even though I like the other ones, that's my favorite one. So, how do we? How, how? Okay, mike, what's your favorite one?

Mike Todd 33:17

Of you.

Karen Koehler 33:18

Of you.

Finding Joy in Our Favorite Selves

Mike Todd 33:19

Of me. Yeah, yeah, Mike. What are your archetypes? My favorite one is artistic, Mike Ah. Musical Because that's when, when everything's clicking. When I'm playing music, whether it's alone or with other people and it's usually more when it's with other people that's when everything melts away, except for the music and the interaction between you and the audience and the other musicians, and the weight of the world is gone and you fly. That's that's why I like making music so much and I think people get that with all.

Mike Todd 34:05

I'm sure that you Mo get that with poetry. Yes, I think that you get that with work. Um, when, when that stuff happens happens, that's the favorite. And I mean I think that becoming more of who we are, realizing our archetypes, for me it's a constant conversation in my head. You know everybody, or?

Karen Koehler 34:30

most of the people I know have a monologue that's running in their head.

Mike Todd 34:34

But I got a team and they argue and some of them try to be the be in charge and some of them don't want to be in charge because like little mo might not want to you know, might sort of be timid to the other savage Moe.

Mo Hamoudi 34:53

Yeah, ruthless Moe yeah.

Mike Todd 34:57

But you can't let Ruthless Moe run the whole thing because then you'd be a psychopath.

Mo Hamoudi 35:03

I know yes.

Mike Todd 35:06

But I think finding the balance in between all the archetypes and having them work together at once is when you become a person, and it takes a long time. Some people maybe that happens earlier, but most of the people that I know still aren't there yet and you know, I'm at least a couple, three quarters of the way through my life. I think so, but it takes a long time and I think a lot of people don't ever get there because they don't even realize the archetypes or don't want to admit them yeah, yeah what about you?

Mo Hamoudi 35:38

my favorite one is that's hard, I think, wisemore, you know he is maturing more as I get older and I'm realizing that he is going to be the next step in my personal and professional evolution, that he leading the charge of the other Mo's. That's the one I'm focused on right now. What about you?

Karen Koehler 36:13

Well, first of all, I really love being a grandma, but that's not, you know, I mean, and that's you know, that's granny personality. But but for me, when everything is clicking for me and and it can be a variety it could be when I'm, when I'm in, when I'm in the zone writing like when I write a, like a settlement demand, or when I write a, you know, when I'm in the zone writing like when I write a settlement demand, or when I'm just writing, when I'm certainly in trial, and I just love it so much. There's something about and it's the way that I process, which is I prepare, obviously I prepare a lot, but then I don't orchestrate how it's the way that I process, which is I prepare, obviously I prepare a lot, but then I don't orchestrate how it's released.

Karen Koehler 36:59

I really trust myself. I trust my brain to know it, I trust myself, and when I'm in the zone like that, it feels like other world. When it comes out, it's very much similar to music. Yeah, it's just coming out and it's just the way it's meant to be, and there might be a couple little boo-boos, but you don't even care, but it feels so good, it doesn't matter it and it's coming out and it's just it's everything combining.

Karen Koehler 37:28

it's not just creativity, it's everything combining. It's not just creativity, it's everything that combines and then comes out and it's just like a flower.

Mo Hamoudi 37:38

By the way, I think that's Michael Cairn.

Karen Koehler 37:43

I mean when I read your writing.

Mo Hamoudi 37:45

It is almost like playful and musical.

Mike Todd 37:49

Especially when you're writing like after or during trials, when you write what's happened every day, I mean that's so fun sometimes. Even when it's mad, or even when it's frustrated, you still approach it with a lightheartedness that makes it really fun to read.

Karen Koehler 38:06

Thanks, guys. Well, that was an interesting conversation about all of our stuff. I agree, thank you.