Karen Koehler on Leadership Challenges in Managing a Law Firm

Episode 20: Karen Koehler on Leadership Challenges in Managing a Law Firm

Can being too humble hold you back?

Karen opens up about her leadership style, one that prioritizes team praise over personal recognition, and the unintended downside of deflecting credit. Mo and Mike delve into how humility, when taken to an extreme, can blur the lines between authority and respect.

Together, they explore the tension between wanting respect but rejecting praise, how gender shapes perceptions of leadership, and why decisiveness is often mistaken for arrogance.

Mo shares a powerful take on Karen’s legal mastery, especially her ability to pace a case like a symphony, and reminds us why great leaders must sometimes own their power.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

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Transcript

Leadership Deficiencies and Philosophy

Karen Koehler 0:08

Okay, so I have an interesting thought.

Mo Hamoudi 0:12

What is the thought?

Karen Koehler 0:13

It's about leadership and, as you know, I am the leader of the law firm.

Mo Hamoudi 0:18

You are. I didn't know that In certain ways. Well, why don't you illuminate us, oh great leader?

Karen Koehler 0:25

But I want to talk about some of my deficiencies with respect, in a different way than we have before, Because, I mean, I'm open to talking about deficiencies as a leader. Okay, so my philosophy started in being a leader, obviously a very long time ago, when I used to take care of my brothers and sisters. Right, that was involuntary leadership, but my first experience of having to be a leader was when I was president of trial lawyers, and what I learned and the way that I learned isn't by people telling me, it's by observation and kind of seeing what works and doesn't work. You know, that kind of thing. And what I started to see and it actually, though I think at the time so the executive director was Gerhard Letzing and what I started to see was that what didn't work with leadership was someone that just told people what to do or that threatened people. If you don't do this, then this is going to happen.

Mo Hamoudi 1:35

Yeah, that's dictatorship.

The Challenge of Accepting Compliments

Karen Koehler 1:36

And what I learned was that the best way to be a leader was to be very positive and to encourage people and also to acknowledge people and et cetera. However, and I still believe that, however and this is where I this is one of those it's not exactly a therapy session, but I do need your input. As a result of that philosophy, which I've brought over to the office, I think that there have been some unintended consequences that are negative. What I think? There's two of them.

Mo Hamoudi 2:11

What are they?

Karen Koehler 2:12

Well, the one of them is, for example, when I share a good result, I make sure to make sure that everybody that was working on it, from me on down, feels equally important. Okay, me on down feels equally important.

Karen Koehler 2:34

Okay, and I did that recently and was criticized for doing that by two of my partners because they said you need to be able to accept that the other team members, without you, would have been able to do this. Team members without you would have been able to do this, but it's your additional presence, your work, your input that made something extraordinary.

Karen Koehler 3:04

And I had to get back and be comfortable even thinking that that was true. So that's issue. Number one is, and I've always been very bad at being able to accept compliment, and part of this is because my parents were super critical my mother in particular, like I used to play piano and she never said anything nice about it, other than when I was doing a concert and then everyone. She would tell everyone oh how great, great, great, great. It was Same. She never could give a compliment to my face. It was other people, and I was always embarrassed by that. I just didn't like it and so I carried that into. I've always had that way. Like you can't compliment me. Although I will evade, I will change a subject. I will not accept it can I ask him really?

Mike Todd 3:44

quick yeah did she also compliment other people for their accomplishments.

Karen Koehler 3:52

No.

Mike Todd 3:53

Okay.

Karen Koehler 3:54

Other than herself. Yeah, Well, I figured that very, you know, and and so that that was issue number one and then issue number two is because of that. I don't know if people realize how self-effacing I am. I am very self-effacing, I think. I don't know if people just take it for granted.

Mo Hamoudi 4:17

What do you mean?

Karen Koehler 4:18

That's what I mean. I cannot accept a compliment I won't. As a result of that. There has been times when I've thought that you know. One thing for me that's a big deal is respect. I need people to respect, Respect me. I've always needed that. Like I want to be respected but not complimented. Is that a weird thing? Like in my jobs, I want to be acknowledged for what I've done. I don't want to hear some platitude of you. Know, you're so wonderful. That means nothing to me. I want this. It's a very strained relationship between the two of them that exists and most people don't know this. You just see it as you know, and I think, also because I'm so willing to just thank everybody and be very self-effacing, that it could backfire upon me and undermine people's understanding of what I'm bringing to the equation, because I'm so quick to thank others and not take credit for myself.

Mo Hamoudi 5:32

Wow, okay One. I do know that about you. I do know that you do not know how to take compliments, because when I've tried to give you affirmations, what you will do is use what I call segue words and shift the conversation to something else.

Karen Koehler 5:48

Correct.

Mo Hamoudi 5:48

And you've done that to me repeatedly Now, now that's, that's something a little bit different than what you're talking about is leadership, and what it means to be a leader.

The Difference Between Respect and Fear

Karen Koehler 5:57

I think it affects my leadership.

Mo Hamoudi 5:59

I give you that.

Karen Koehler 6:00

And the good thing, right, the good thing is that you have a leader that doesn't hog all. I mean people would be surprised I do not hog all the attention. Those people that think I hog all the attention I don't.

Mo Hamoudi 6:18

But somehow I don't think it's always a good thing. I don't know about if it's a good thing or a bad thing, karen, but I think that actions speak louder than words. Sometimes you don't need to say anything, and I'm a big believer in this. If you don't know my value, I am not going to tell you my value. If you are not curious to know my value, then I am not interested in having you in my sphere, in my sphere of what I believe to be people that are important to me.

Karen Koehler 6:44

But how are you at taking compliments?

Mo Hamoudi 6:47

I'm not, you know. Affirmations from the people who are in my sphere mean a great deal to me. Yeah, you like them, I like them. You're the opposite to me. Yeah, you like them, I like them. You're the opposite of me.

Karen Koehler 6:55

Yeah, I like them, like if I give you an affirmation, you are like glowy puppy.

Mo Hamoudi 6:59

Yes, he's like glowy puppy.

Karen Koehler 7:02

Yes, he's like so happy.

Mo Hamoudi 7:04

Yes, yes, yeah.

Karen Koehler 7:06

Versus me. I'm like kick the dog. I'm like don't.

Mo Hamoudi 7:16

Get away like that. Don't get away. But if you're not accepting the affirmation, is it impacting your ability to lead?

Karen Koehler 7:20

Is that what you're saying? I don't know, and it's not that I just don't accept it. I also want to hear it, but I don't accept it. It's a very complicated. I want to hear it Like you should give me an affirmation, but I may outwardly reject it. Does this make sense, mike?

Mike Todd 7:35

Oh yeah, well, I'm exactly like that. I don't like to take compliments at all.

Karen Koehler 7:39

But you want them.

Mike Todd 7:40

Well, of course, I think everybody wants them, no matter what they say but you want them, but you don't take them. Well, no because I feel like it's the same for me. I had a father who didn't compliment me, but he also would spend a lot of time talking about other you know, like his other. Oh, so-and-so's son, they did this, or?

Mike Todd 8:03

that comparison which made me feel even smaller. But the other part for me is I always like to be part of a team, which is interesting, because I don't like to be around people that much either. So, just in the same way that you said that you want the compliments but you don't want them, I want to be part of a team but I don't want to be around any of the team.

Mike Todd 8:31

People are complicated many of the team people are complicated, but it's for me, it's. Being part of a team means that you don't take the compliment that you, that you don't need the compliment because everyone needs the compliment together yeah I see this is where the leadership part comes in.

Karen Koehler 8:51

So I believe that, but I think that sometimes even in my own firm, that I'm not respected enough.

Mike Todd 9:03

Well, I think that that's where some of the needing the compliments come in yeah. Because you recognize when you don't get it as less worth Recognize, when you don't get it as less worth.

Karen Koehler 9:14

And because maybe not everybody is in the inner circle of people, that I know exactly where they are and I have a very strong relationship with them. This is a big firm. I have acquaintances in the law firm and I have closer people to me in the law firm.

Mo Hamoudi 9:32

So interesting of people to me in the law firm so interesting. Well, I think that the question of respect and acknowledging your worth and complimenting you, and leadership are all tied together.

Karen Koehler 9:46

I know. This is why I raised it In a weird way.

Mo Hamoudi 9:50

Well, I think that you can. As a leader, sometimes you have to demand respect, and there are ways in which you can demand respect as a leader.

Karen Koehler 10:02

But you see, like that's also an anathema, right, like that's just like saying that you don't want to have someone give you a compliment if you have to ask for it.

Mo Hamoudi 10:12

Respect and asking for a compliment, I think, are distinct things.

Karen Koehler 10:15

Okay, good, because I really I ugh.

Mike Todd 10:19

Yeah, respect is bigger than a compliment. Yes, respect is the compliment realized always. Yes, so that, and that's what I want too. I mean, that's where I would say I am. I don't need people to compliment me for things. I need to know that they know that I'm going to do that every time, that that's what's going to happen, so that they want me there because they know that that's going to happen.

Karen Koehler 10:50

That's a good point.

Mo Hamoudi 10:51

And the other thing is communicating that out, karen is, I think.

Karen Koehler 11:01

But I think that there's also a line between in law firms and in many corporate structures, between respect and fear, because my position, like I think that there are probably some people, especially like newer lawyers, that would fear me versus meeting me, versus respecting me.

Mo Hamoudi 11:17

But that's your responsibility.

Self-Governance vs. Necessary Structure

Mo Hamoudi 11:18

I know and how you develop relationship as a leader with the people you lead. I think leadership is actually not that difficult If you buy into the principle of the buck stops with me, I am accountable. If I'm the leader, I am accountable. If the culture there's something going on, I take responsibility for that and I will lead and then if somebody is not respecting my leadership then they can't be part of the culture. I think it's kind of very straightforward and I think that the other stuff, like for me, when I'm in leadership positions in sports or in other settings, that I'm in leadership in organizations that's the mindset I bring in.

Karen Koehler 12:01

You're a dude.

Mo Hamoudi 12:03

I thought we're not supposed to use the word anymore.

Karen Koehler 12:06

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Mo Hamoudi 12:08

I didn't use the word.

Karen Koehler 12:11

Mike, I did not say it's on film, it's on film. Oh, my goodness, you're a guy and I'm not, and it's different.

Mike Todd 12:19

Okay, it's only a little different, because I would say that a certain amount of fear from subordinates is needed, because that's acknowledging the power that the leader has. But what I would consider a good leader is someone who has that but doesn't utilize it except in the situations where it's needed, and never uses it against a subordinate.

Karen Koehler 12:47

I don't even like the word subordinate.

Mike Todd 12:49

Yeah, I know but I was struggling with the language.

Mo Hamoudi 12:52

Okay, it's the difference between a leader and those that are led. There is a difference. There are people that are being led and there is a reason why they're not leaders because they are not either ready or want to or fit to be leaders, and that's just the way the world is organized. And so you have to respect hierarchy, you have to respect it, you have to acknowledge it from the bottom up, and I just think that if there is no respect within hierarchy, then to me it's like that's a weak team. That's a weak team. You are not going to win, that culture is not going to compete right, and and so to me, that is critical, critical and and and. So you know, I'm not going to tell you how to lead, karen, you know exactly how to lead, and I disagree with the dude thing, because I think, like you transcend dude, you know, or whatever thing that you just brought up, you transcend that, and I think there's something else that is hedging, decisiveness.

Gender Dynamics in Leadership Recognition

Karen Koehler 14:10

What, what you know, say what's on your mind. Say it. I can't Say it, spit it out.

Mo Hamoudi 14:24

I think that there's a part of you that wants not to be feared, and being decisive is ultimately going to result in people not only respecting you but fearing you. And it's about like really growing into that type of leadership where you're like I'm making a decision and I am doing X, and people will. It'll shake a little bit the hierarchy, It'll shake the structure, and then people will be like but no, but that's what leaders do, and then they go. I take responsibility for that.

Karen Koehler 15:03

I mean there's different things that I've led where I don't care. I mean I don't care, mean you're I don't care, I, people better fear me. I'm going to be the leader, I'm the one, and you and we're going to all, we're all in this together and you know. But if you're talking about the law firm, I really don't you're, it's true. Um, I don't. I don't like to wield power for the sake of wielding power. I don't like to wield power for the sake of wielding power. I don't like structures. I've already been counseled on this by our coaches. We're already going through a lot of change here because, according to them, I was as far left over in terms of lenient as you could possibly be, because I believe in the power of self-governance.

Mo Hamoudi 15:47

But that's an illusion.

Karen Koehler 15:49

I know this now. Okay, now you know this. That was three years ago.

Mo Hamoudi 15:52

It's an illusion, because the image we are projecting out to the community is that my watch just went down, is that? The image that we project to the community is that we are an organization whose ethos is real justice, real people. Okay, that is our ethos and we have a hierarchy. Just look at our website.

Karen Koehler 16:16

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 16:16

You are the managing partner.

Karen Koehler 16:18

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 16:19

And then, so to me, what is our mission? Who's our leader? Lead and then we follow, and it's like everything structures down from that there is no, I've gotten used to it.

Karen Koehler 16:30

Okay, all right, but it's something you know. What is interesting about it is that most leaders of law firms do not have my struggles. They're like, they're going to be like Ruthless Mo. I am the leader and you're going to all follow me and I'm going to lead my.

Mike Todd 16:45

Well, and that's I mean, I could say, from when I started here. That was more what it was like when I first started. But I would say, to go back to respect of a leader, because I think that that's important, very important. When you have true respect for someone who you are working underneath, when you have true respect for someone who you are working underneath, you're willing to go to them when you're at your most vulnerable and ask for help or ask for guidance, and a good leader will do that without utilizing the fear that they can wield, they become compassionate and helpful.

Mo Hamoudi 17:32

Some of the ones that we had before you weren't like that Okay, and that's not necessarily a bad leader, but not a respected leader, but it's a double-edged sword, and the double-edged sword, mike, is that I think that the gender dynamic plays a big role in this.

Mike Todd 17:49

Oh, I agree.

Mo Hamoudi 17:50

I don't think that part of the respect that Karen doesn't get is because of her gender.

Karen Koehler 17:56

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 17:56

And sometimes it's from women of her own gender. Oh yeah, and so I think that.

Karen Koehler 18:02

Women of my own gender. Wait did I say that? Right, you did. Gender wait, did I say that? Right he did. He said I don't know that that's right. Women of my own gender. Well, you know what I mean, you know exactly what I mean.

Mo Hamoudi 18:13

Okay, I'm just trying to stay away from dude individuals of your own trying to stay away from terms that are you know, what I'm saying is is that and so like, like I mean I'll give you a nononspecific example you know of.

Masterful Case Management and Value

Mo Hamoudi 18:31

I mean, karen is. I've worked with some of the greatest lawyers in this country and she does not get the credit that she deserves as being masterful in how she practices law. Masterful, masterful in how she practices law, masterful and you know the fact that I've shared this with her and sometimes she doesn't know how to manage a compliment like that, and I've had to be very specific and targeted in describing what I mean by masterful. I said the way in which you pace a case just pace a case, pacing cases and you pace cases from beginning to end is masterful. It's like symphony. You know how to move a case from one direction to the next and create this sense of unpredictability for people who need to manage risk, and you do it so well that you never lose control of a case and that dictates settlements and that dictates verdicts, and I was like that takes a very masterful ability to do that and I have never seen any other lawyer pace a case as well as she does, and that is why this firm right now is so frickin' successful and that is why this firm right now is so freaking successful and the fact that people don't understand the value. This is what I mean.

Mo Hamoudi 19:55

I go back to what I said earlier. I was like if you don't know my value, I am not going to come and beg you to find it out. If you're not curious about who I am and why I'm good at what I do, then I'm not interested in having you in my sphere. Now, that's not from the context of a leader, karen. A leader has to understand why they choose to have people in their spheres and why they don't. You're responsible. You're the leader.

Mike Todd 20:25

This is you. You've created it.

Mo Hamoudi 20:28

Yes, okay, so you can't be upset about it I'm not upset about okay, all right, just want to make sure, yeah, you know okay but it is.

Karen Koehler 20:35

You know, nothing is ever straightforward, because we're humans and there's just all these weird dichotomies and different things that motivate us or unmotivate us, or that we like or don't like, and they're. It's not just people like black and white, like people like things that are simple and straightforward, but when you look at who we are, we're never no we're not no, no, no, but I just gave you a compliment and you took it well, I thought you received it pretty well. I didn't, I, I didn't how was that compliment?

Mo Hamoudi 21:08

it was accurate, it was genuine, it was very accurate, and I got a lot more. But she doesn't want to hear it. I'll see her do stuff, mike and I go, okay, okay woof woof.