Keeping Up with Karen

Episode 34: Keeping Up with Karen 

Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi debate the power of thinking on your feet versus slowing down to choose your words. Karen owns her “borderline manic” speed and explains how fast processing helps her pivot in court and keep juries engaged. Mo pushes back with the benefits of pausing for clarity. Mike Todd weighs in on how different brains process input during live questioning and why both styles can win with a jury.

This one is fast, short, and sweet. 

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Transcript

Finding a Topic to Discuss

Karen Koehler 0:07

Okay, wait, if you want to give me a topic to talk about, it's got to be a decent topic. Okay, you're just pulling them out of the air and they're all lame.

Mo Hamoudi 0:14

I'm not. I'm just saying I will submit my topics to the Politburo and then, when the Politburo, when the Ming Dynasty, decides that my topic meets the Empress's standards, then we shall do it.

Karen Koehler 0:32

Well, so far.

Mo Hamoudi 0:34

All of mine get shut down.

Karen Koehler 0:35

I haven't. I can't even remember when you last had a topic that we talked about. Well, okay, no look it, he's trying to come up with one. His wheels are spinning too slow.

Mo Hamoudi 0:45

Mike, what do you think we should talk about?

Karen Koehler 0:47

No, I already know what we're going to talk about.

Mo Hamoudi 0:48

What are we going to talk about?

Karen Koehler 0:50

We're going to talk about when your wheels spin too slow. We're going to talk about my wheels. We're going to talk about being fast, a fast person.

Mo Hamoudi 0:57

Wait, what do you mean? My wheels turn slow.

Karen Koehler 0:59

Well, they are turning slow. All right, we're going to talk about being fast.

Mo Hamoudi 1:03

Okay, what do you mean by fast? You're fast, I'm fast, I'm faster, not as fast as me.

Karen Koehler 1:10

I'm fastest, I'm fastest. No, let's talk about being fast. Okay, in what?

Mo Hamoudi 1:20

respect. Well, first of all, how important it is when you do what we do. Well, what we do, what you and I do right now, being fast is incredibly important because we have a lot of work we're doing.

Karen Koehler 1:30

See, that was that. See, did you hear what he just said?

Mike Todd 1:33

Oh yeah.

The Value of Fast Processing

Karen Koehler 1:33

First of all, he repeated the question to buy himself more time to think about how he was going to answer that, and then he really said nothing. He repeated it and said nothing because your wheels are turning too slow. You know, my wheels turn faster than yours all right well okay, let me tell you about turning wheels, turning fast. All right, okay. First of all, I am not exactly diagnosable. However, I'm borderline manic. Duh Right, I am. I have borderline and I've known this for a long time.

Karen Koehler 2:20

It runs in my family. My mother certainly was, but it's one of the reasons why. Look at how it listens. When I talk to a jury, I talk slower, but here I'm just letting myself talk. Normally I can talk so fast and normally when you're just having regular speaking talk, you're talking as fast as you're thinking or a little bit slower. There's like a little delay on how fast you talk when you're thinking.

Karen Koehler 2:46

People that talk slower are taking more time to process, which could be wise. Of course it's wise Because you want your brain to be correct and you're double-checking it. However, when you're just a fast processor, you're just expecting your brain to be correct and sometimes you make a word mistake, like I'll say something completely wrong, a word wrong. But I don't care, because you know what I'm saying, because I've said a thousand other words at the same time and you know the context. But as a person that thinks fast, talks fast, reads fast, processes fast, it is one of the things that have made me, for the defense, a formidable opponent, because I can react so quickly. And when you're a trial lawyer, being able to react quickly, immediately, that is a power that you want to have when you're a trial lawyer. I agree.

Karen Koehler 3:48

Okay, but talk about it.

Fast Thinking in Trial Law

Mo Hamoudi 3:50

Okay, well, I can tell you right now that I can think fast when I'm on my feet and I'm like doing something that is like got to happen.

Karen Koehler 3:57

He's trying to talk faster now. No, I'm not trying to talk faster, he expresses me. Mike is just cracking up over here, wait. Okay, part of what Karen does is that she Wait wait, mike, you've worked with me way longer than Mo Mo's worked with me for a year and a half. You've worked with me for 21 years, yeah, okay, how fast am I?

Mike Todd 4:16

Oh, you're very fast, but I was going to interject, I was letting you guys go in. Do you think that people that process fast, already have answers that they've thought about or have opinions that they have backed up? Because that's what I think for me is I've, or the conversation that's going on, you're listening to it and processing, which I guess is fast, while Mo's saying, you're processing what he's saying and then you're able to answer right when he finishes, which is different from if somebody asks you a specific question that you have to reference, and I just think that's the way that people think differently. It's not necessarily slow or fast, it's some people think about it after and some people think about it before.

Karen Koehler 5:10

Is the way that I would say it for example, writing is a really good exercise and I write a lot. I write very fast. People will say well, how can you write these trial diaries after every day?

Mo Hamoudi 5:22

well, because I just sit down and write it out and it's done versus if another person was going to do it.

Karen Koehler 5:30

You're looking at an hour, hour and a half and then you're going to revise it, and that's not how my brain works. My brain works fast. I don't, and I think that what you said is really interesting about have people already made up their minds or they've already thought things through, probably on some things, but on other things, I think the benefit of having at least one of the benefits of my mind to me is that I can take in a lot of information and I'm turning it through and trying to make sense of it all the time. That's how it works. I think it's important for everyone to know how your brain and mind works. I still don't really know how it works, other than it goes fast and it doesn't like to turn itself off, and it can be very difficult to interface with me because of that.

Mike Todd 6:23

What I was saying is kind of how I process things. Like I'm always listening to what you just said and then Coming up with my. I mean, I've always got an internal monologue going on in my head, so I'm having a conversation with myself while I'm having a conversation with you guys. Okay, that's a good point and I can see pictures, so all when people ask me stuff like a direct question. I can shoot into my brain and if it's something that I have in there, I can see it.

Mo Hamoudi 6:52

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 6:53

So you, your visual. Well, from my perspective and listening to you as we were doing the podcast, everything you say is so well thought out, everything I say is not as well thought out. And we just heard Mo just say nothing at the very beginning of this when I told him it because it was a filler. He was just trying to get time. But he can also go fast. Wait a minute.

Mike Todd 7:16

I'm going to change the podcast name to Karen Hammers Moe.

Mo Hamoudi 7:20

It's not the Velvet Hammer, it's the Karen Hammers Moe podcast.

Karen Koehler 7:24

And the other thing, in addition to being fast, is look at Moe's face. If you're not watching video, you've got to watch this. But I get bored easily because I go fast to watch this. But I get bored easily because I go fast. And so then I like to, I like to like pick a little bit so that I can get a reaction out of someone. There is no one that's funner to get a reaction out of than mo she gets so many reactions out of me, she'll say crazy things.

Mo Hamoudi 7:52

I mean, what's a good example? I don don't know.

Karen Koehler 7:53

And he'll do that. He'll start stuttering or he'll start dying of laughter.

Mo Hamoudi 7:58

I will start laughing, though he's like you're being spicy, karen.

Karen Koehler 8:02

I'm like, yeah, I'm like a little bored, or he'll be telling me something and I'm going to be like, yeah, this is a little boring, I need more. I need more.

Mo Hamoudi 8:11

Yeah, you do that a lot. You will just say something I'll be like what? And I was like what did you just say I'll be like you. Don't mean that You're just doing it to pick. I'm trying. What's a good example? You did it yesterday when we were walking.

Karen Koehler 8:24

Well, you're never going to remember it.

Mo Hamoudi 8:25

I don't remember because there's so many, they're prol pepper.

Karen Koehler 8:30

There are bad things about being a fast thinker. You can say things that you regret or that come out wrong.

Mike Todd 8:37

It can make you rash and do things too fast.

Karen Koehler 8:41

Those are words that have never been applied to me before.

Mike Todd 8:43

Nobody's ever said that about you, right.

Mo Hamoudi 8:46

Now can we talk about the virtues of not talking fast? No, Of course not. This is only about fast.

Mike Todd 8:54

This is our fast episode today. No, I think I would say myself, if you're talking about an attorney talking in front of a jury. I think both of those approaches can have positives Seeing somebody who, like Mo, did stop take a short pause while they mentally figure out what they're going to say and then say it, and if it sounds clear and makes sense and sounds well thought out then it's going to have a big impact.

Karen Koehler 9:29

Big impact.

Mike Todd 9:29

Agree Totally agree with you.

Drawbacks of Fast Processing

Mo Hamoudi 9:31

But if you're going to pause and then just say nothing, you got to have that's way's way bad yeah that is bad, but also when you're untethered and just babbling that's bad and nothing makes sense and people go is this person unwell? That's also a problem because, let me just tell you, you could sit there and say and yet when you start to speak and it's like, okay, so I think it cuts both ways.

Mike Todd 10:03

Now back to our previous fast discussion. See, I can be spicy too.

Karen Koehler 10:07

I know, but I'm just listening and thinking well, he's just not as fast as me. That's why he's coming up with anything he can say against fast people.

Mo Hamoudi 10:15

Or because you just want to be fast for fast's sake?

Karen Koehler 10:21

That's it. I can't help it Spicy. I have one processing speed.

Mo Hamoudi 10:25

It's fast, no you have other speeds. This is not accurate. I don't.

Mike Todd 10:30

Well, I would say Karen just has like one gear below. There's not that much speed difference, it's just a little bit slower.

Mo Hamoudi 10:41

Okay, going from seventh gear to sixth gear. Okay, let's try again. Give me, give it to me, give it to me, let me try again. Give me the test. What's the test? What's the test?

Karen Koehler 10:53

You're prepared now. Yeah, I can't, you're going to Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 10:57

Well, how are you supposed to do this?

Karen Koehler 11:00

Okay, so how do you keep up with me?

Mo Hamoudi 11:02

How do I keep up with you? Yeah, see, I did it again. Okay, all right, baby.

Mike Todd 11:12

You're answering a question with a question and the exact question for that matter.

Mo Hamoudi 11:16

I mean, okay, let's drink, let's drink. No, okay, I keep up with you. You already failed the test. I already screwed up. Yes, I can't win. There's no way. This is too much.

Karen Koehler 11:37

All right, but you're a person also that likes a lot of stimulation mentally.

Mo Hamoudi 11:42

Yes.

Karen Koehler 11:42

Right. Look at how fast he said yes, Am I a person that likes mental stimulation? Well, I guess I am. You skipped that whole part, so I'm proud of you. So when you're dealing with someone like me and I know that I can be very aggravating to some people, especially people that don't process like me, which is a lot of people Um, I'm not trying to do it because of anything other than this is how I am. This is just how I am, and I tend to work really well with people that can process faster. And there's some things that you have done that are really good. For example, we get a writing project in and you like spit it right back to me. Now I've told you what did I told you to put on the on the wall.

Mo Hamoudi 12:27

Something like like take a little more time to look at it.

Karen Koehler 12:31

I said I love the fact that you get it done quickly. A little more time to look at it. I said I love the fact that you get it done quickly and I want you to then pause and come back and correct it so that I don't have to correct like grammar and basic spelling issues. But I love the fact that you are prompt and fast.

Mo Hamoudi 12:45

Yeah, yeah, and, by the way, I do the same, you do the same too, like yeah you got it.

Karen Koehler 12:53

I didn't say I didn't. I don't use AI.

Mo Hamoudi 12:55

Right.

Karen Koehler 12:56

I don't use AI. You've learned how to use AI to Different people. Have you finish your draft and then you say correct the grammar.

Mo Hamoudi 13:06

Well, no With AI.

Karen Koehler 13:08

You say correct the tense.

Mo Hamoudi 13:09

I say correct the tense, make sure I'm not make my writing present tense and it'll just, you know, do that, but I write it. But I think that, like being fast, you just like you're okay with making small errors.

Karen Koehler 13:25

I am.

Mo Hamoudi 13:25

Do you see what I'm saying and like? So that's like the hard part of being fast You're going to make errors.

Karen Koehler 13:32

There's a compromise.

Mo Hamoudi 13:33

Yes.

Karen Koehler 13:34

It's not going to be 100% perfect. I am less than perfect. Okay, I don't try to be. Okay that's okay, I just want to do as good as I can you just get it faster? Yes.

Mo Hamoudi 13:43

Yeah. But the other thing is that being imperfect and getting something done really fast as long as you get to the same destination, who cares? You see what I'm saying. If the objective is to get X, and then you just go and get the X, great. And if somebody goes, yeah, oh, by the way, you got X, but you made error, error, error, error, small error, error. To me, that's a waste of time. So this is why I like working fast.

Retention: Reading vs. Listening

Karen Koehler 14:10

So when I listen to, I listen to a lot of books. I listen to them at one and a half speed.

Mo Hamoudi 14:18

So do I.

Karen Koehler 14:19

I would like to listen to them at two speed, but they sound like Chipmunks. Yeah, but did you know that you can change the speed?

Mike Todd 14:27

Oh, I, know I used to know people that listened faster than that. I can't like.

Karen Koehler 14:32

I know a person that listened to them three times and I'm like what are you exactly getting out of this? To me, you're missing a lot.

Mike Todd 14:38

But I also think that people some people don't try to retain as much from books where I typically try to retain more.

Karen Koehler 14:50

Do you read fiction?

Mike Todd 14:52

I mostly read fiction. I read some non-fiction, but I would say the majority is fiction.

Karen Koehler 14:58

Why do you want to retain fiction Like I? Just want to live the experience.

Mike Todd 15:02

I don't always want to, I just like, if I read, I retain it, naturally pretty much. But what I was going to say is I started listening to books too, and I don't retain them as much.

Mike Todd 15:14

Because, I can do other things, like I'll be looking at the computer while I'm listening to the book or, you know, while I'm driving good point, doing something else at the same time, like it's. It doesn't. I don't. I mean I I think if I listened to it a few times I might retain it, but one time where I can read a book and be able to tell big portions of the story after I'm done, it's true.

Karen Koehler 15:41

I mean, I never thought about that, but what? Because I still read also, but mainly on planes. Um, when you read, when you read, you can't do anything else other than listen to music, yeah, or walking a treadmill. Yeah, you can't really do that, but yeah, so my father would read at the pace of a snail all his life.

Mike Todd 16:01

My wife reads that stuff.

Karen Koehler 16:03

He can still remember every character of practically every book he's ever read. His memory is fascinating to me. Everybody is different, and so the fact that I'm saying fast, fast is good for me, because I'm fast, I've made it work, but it's not necessarily good for everybody and I have to slow it down in trial. I can't talk like this in trial. I have to go slower Because people can't understand you.

Mike Todd 16:29

No, and they can't retain what you're saying either.

Karen Koehler 16:33

No, I've been very sloppy in the podcast. I just talk as fast as I would normally want to talk, but for public speaking always slower. You want to say something?

Mo Hamoudi 16:44

I don't have anything to say.

Karen Koehler 16:46

Look at how fast he said that.

Mo Hamoudi 16:49

That was pretty fast.

Mike Todd 16:52

I'm just listening.

Mo Hamoudi 16:54

I'm just taking it all in.

Karen Koehler 16:56

Well, that was fast, fast.

Mike Todd 16:57

yeah, that was a fast thought I was gonna say on your point about fiction versus non-fiction, I all the stuff that I listen to now is fiction and I don't retain it at all, really, I mean it's a little bit, but not nearly as much as I did when I read and I've been trying to get back into reading more, but I striving to work. Like my commute to work, I listen to books all the time now.

Karen Koehler 17:22

I listen to well, almost all murder mysteries because they're very entertaining, but I also listen to memoirs and autobiographies. I love those.

Mo Hamoudi 17:32

I'm listening to the Woman's Guide to Power Unbound, kasia Urbaniak. It's an outstanding book.

Karen Koehler 17:39

It's written by a dominatrix, I know. Oh my God.

Mo Hamoudi 17:42

It is, and a Taoist monk slash dominatrix.

Mike Todd 17:47

Fantastic.

Karen Koehler 17:48

She's talking about power.

Mo Hamoudi 17:49

Power, of course, but from a woman's perspective.

Mike Todd 17:53

Really good book. Why?

Karen Koehler 17:54

are you reading it From a domin?

Mike Todd 17:55

dominatrix perspective is a little bit different than the average woman, I would say.

Karen Koehler 17:59

Good point, Mike. Wait, what did Mike say?

Book Recommendations and Closing

Mike Todd 18:02

I said a dominatrix point of view would be slightly different than a normal woman's point of view Because, like Karen said, that's a power dynamic. Every relationship that she's having in her professional life is a master sub relationship.

Karen Koehler 18:20

Yeah, Okay, well, this is our next topic. We're going to go do a book review.

Mo Hamoudi 18:26

Okay.

Karen Koehler 18:26

Finish it up and you can lead it.

Mo Hamoudi 18:29

Oh, I love the book. Okay, we'll do that. There you go, I'm going to read it now too.

Mike Todd 18:33

I can't come and do a conversation like that.

Mo Hamoudi 18:35

Yes, Mike, you've got to read the book. She's read it. Why am I reading it? You told me it's a good book to read.

Karen Koehler 18:40

Oh, the truth has come out. Yes, bye, bye.