Power: Who Holds It And Who Doesn’t

Season 6, Episode 3: Power: Who Holds It And Who Doesn’t

In this episode, Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi go head-to-head on whether power is real or an illusion, and why that question matters when your client has none. From courtroom dynamics and judicial authority to insurance companies, employers, and institutions that quietly run the show, this conversation pulls apart how power actually works when the stakes are real.

Karen brings decades of trial experience and zero patience for theoretical thinking that ignores reality. Mo pushes back with a survivor’s mindset shaped by resistance, meaning, and refusal to submit. Mike Todd jumps in to ground the debate in everyday life, systems, and consequences.

If this conversation resonates, follow The Velvet Hammer™, share it with someone who fights uphill battles, and leave a review telling us how you deal with power when it shows up in your life.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Transcript

Opening Debate: Is Power Real?

Mo Hamoudi 0:06

Power. Power. Power. Power. I want power. Who has it? Who wants it? Who gets it? Who gets it? Who needs it? Who needs it? Power.

Karen Koehler 0:18

Who will never have it?

Mo Hamoudi 0:19

It's all about power. I really think power is an illusion. I don't think it's real. I don't think people actually have power. I think people have resources and they can make choices, but the idea that people are really powerful, I think it's something that's bestowed on them.

Karen Koehler 0:39

You are so wrong.

Mo Hamoudi 0:41

I know. Always. Always wrong.

Mike Todd 0:45

Yeah. I I mean, I think the illusion that an individual holds all the power at all times is incorrect, but power is a real thing. Like that. I mean, it's the ability to gather all of us little people together and use that as a uh influence tool. Isn't it because we let people do that? Do we?

Mo Hamoudi 1:09

I mean, you say let the little people, but like I mean, that's what I'm saying.

Defining Power Through Legal Lenses

Mike Todd 1:13

One would say that most of the little people are manipulated into doing what they're doing. So we don't really have choice in that matter.

Karen Koehler 1:19

I don't know if that's that's that's manipulation. Having just invaded Venezuela and plucked out their president, um, we aren't gonna go down that direction. This is a legal podcast in particular, and we're gonna talk about um from from in the legal arena.

Mike Todd 1:35

Isn't he being tried right now though? I mean, technically it's a legal issue. Well, I mean if you really believe. Okay, anyway. Sorry, you're right.

The Mistrial Story And Court Authority

Resources, Status, And Signaling In Court

Karen Koehler 1:47

Where I f where I run up against power all the time, indisputable power, is in trial. In that microcosm of an environment, in a court, where I know everything and I know what's best, yeah, and it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what the judge or the jury decides. That's power. And I'll and I'll I have many stories about getting thrown out of my butt because I had no power. So many years ago in the 90s, I had tried a case. The judge was Linda Lau, who um she's still a Court of Appeals judge now, but she was my trial judge, and I was trying a case against David Wick. And they had both been in the prosecutor's office, I believe, together, it was a civil trial. And I had an opening statement, told the jury that because this was in the height of tort reform where they hated lawyers. It was a car crash case, and so they had all these assumptions like you file a lawsuit, you know, you bring us all in and make us sit here. And I'm I said, Well, you know, the defendant is the one that filed the jury demand. He moved for mistrial, said it was a violation of due process. I said, This is not a criminal case, this is a civil case. She granted the mistrial. I was arguing with her because she was completely wrong, as the jury was filing out. Like it didn't matter. It didn't matter if I was right. All that mattered was who had the power. That's a lesson that you learn when you're in the trial arena. Who has the power? And now you can fight against some of it. Like the defendant is constantly gonna try to assert their power over you. You see it especially in government cases where all those they get up there, there's one trial, this one attorney general. Every time she got up with a witness, she said, My name is Assistant Attorney General So-and-so. Every time, right? You don't need to announce yourself, but there was a reason, right? I'm here on behalf of the state of Washington. I am the state of Washington. I am a good person. You pay tax money for me. Follow me, right? So, or the defense lawyers who can have SCADS of resources. They'll have piles and piles of defense lawyers, they'll have appellate lawyers lawyers in there bringing motions every day to set, you know, it up for appeal. They'll have all these way more expensive expert witnesses than you. They'll have just they'll have the um prolumina, you know, setting up the beautiful audio visual while you're running it your on your own, just dominate you that way. But that's a power structure that you can fight. Because even if you are smaller, even if you have less resources, you're in this level playing field of a courtroom where you have the opportunity to get in there and take the power that you need to win the case from that person, from the from your opponents. But you still have no power over the jury or the judge. Like it's absolute. So yes, if you look at the bigger construct construct of humanity, you can get really esoteric, like Mo was getting. But if you're looking at what we're doing in an arena that has very clear rules on who can do what and who has authority to do what, the only power that we have to bow to is the court and the jury to a certain extent. We do not ever have to bow to the opposing counsel. Ever.

Mo Hamoudi 6:04

That's my speech. That's your speech. That's good. Okay. So I super agree with you that in the microcosm of a courtroom, the judge's decision and the jury's decision has an impact as a consequence that you have no control over. Now, I don't go in my mind as far as like assigning the word power to that. And here's why. I think that in my mind, the larger construct we talked about where I think power is an illusion, is I can't in my mind say that I have submitted something to you. I will not concede this in my mind. I will not let you take that power over me. And so in that moment, when I have had a jury do something that is completely adverse to my position, or a judge do that, I go, okay. This was your moment, but I'm gonna come back and get my moment back for my client. I'm gonna figure out a way, I'm gonna go back to the blueprint. You'll never take my power away. Um, because I just think that like this concept of power is something that's used to He's a little delusional.

Karen Koehler 7:11

I don't want to, I I wanna, I I kind of want him to be able to just keep thinking this because it's kind of cute. But I'm not in reality, it's pretty delusional.

Mo Hamoudi 7:21

I mean, if it it it it helps me go get along and go along. I I just I go I won't submit. Like in my mind, I won't submit.

Karen Koehler 7:31

You have to sometimes, especially with a court, because if you don't, so let's go to this way a judge that hates me, right, in trial, of which we've already talked about Judge Rogers, who hated me in court. For me to be defiant to that judge, for me to be anything other than submit to their authority and accept it and move on, would be disastrous for my client. Now, it didn't help that I was like that and I still got repeatedly whipped by that judge. Yeah. And you will by other judges, but our clients have to come first. Our egos don't get to come first.

Mo Hamoudi 8:10

It's not about ego. I would not by any means like d defy the judge's decision.

Karen Koehler 8:18

How many of your criminal clients, what was the percentage of you winning trials in when you're a public defender? Just answer the question.

Mo Hamoudi 8:26

It's like you lose 90% of the cases.

Karen Koehler 8:29

In those 90% of cases that you lose, how many of those, how many of those uh got reversed?

Power You Can Fight Versus Absolute Power

Mo Hamoudi 8:37

Like a very, very small percentage, like less than a percentage.

Karen Koehler 8:40

Case closed.

Mo Hamoudi 8:41

Nope. Case wide open.

Karen Koehler 8:43

Case closed. This is this was your strategy of how to survive in a no-win situation is to How many of those cases were ones that you actually had to come to where the judge made the decision?

Mike Todd 8:56

Or was it uh plea bargains most of the time.

Mo Hamoudi 9:00

I mean, uh most of them were plea bargains, but judges make decisions on sentencing, on on motions, on you were still at the mercy of the judges. You were still at the mercy of the court.

Karen Koehler 9:09

But wait, did you just say that?

Mo Hamoudi 9:11

Yeah, you're still at the mercy of the court, but he does not or she does not have power over me, nor did they have a power over my clients. What my my it's just this is my this is my approach. Like this is my philosophical approach to things. This is that the process is very revealing, the court process.

Karen Koehler 9:33

I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you on all of this as BS, and here's why.

Mo Hamoudi 9:37

Okay.

Karen Koehler 9:37

Use BS. Go ahead. Go ahead. And you know that this is that that I have basis to do this.

Mo Hamoudi 9:43

I know you. Okay, let's go. Okay.

Karen Koehler 9:48

First of all, you have been very frank in telling us about all of the dynamics of power that you have succumbed to throughout your life, including coming to this country and being mocked for having English as a second language. Yes. And trying to simulate.

Mo Hamoudi 10:03

Yes.

Karen Koehler 10:04

Okay, you try to simulate because the power dynamics were completely whacked off and you were at the very bottom, and you wanted to follow whatever needed to happen so that you wouldn't be picked on. You had no power. Power was from everyone else. Admit it.

Mo Hamoudi 10:24

At that stage in my life, I do admit it, but not now.

Karen Koehler 10:27

Well, but you are that same person.

Mo Hamoudi 10:30

No.

Karen Koehler 10:30

Yep, you are.

Mo Hamoudi 10:31

I'm an evolved person.

Mindset Resistance And Submission

Karen Koehler 10:33

What you come up with is a def is you've come up with a persona that you can put on to give yourself the satisfaction of believing that you haven't succumbed to power even when you have. All of us have to succumb out to power every single day. I have to, I we we just we just got our last bonus checks. We all had to succumb to the IRS. Um it's we succumb every single day.

Mike Todd 11:01

It's a patriarchal society. It's built on that leveled system. Okay. Thank you. That's the way it is. All right. That's the world. I totally since religion was invented and created, that's the stuff.

Mo Hamoudi 11:11

I totally hear you guys.

Karen Koehler 11:13

But like It's okay.

Mo Hamoudi 11:15

It's it's it's to me, it's about mindset.

Karen Koehler 11:18

Like the mindset being What's the difference between mindset and reality? Let's start with that. Let's go with the di let's go back to start with.

Mo Hamoudi 11:24

This isn't a psych psych exam.

Karen Koehler 11:26

No, no, no, no, no. But for anybody, oh I mean What's the difference between a mindset? Because I first of all, I completely agree with your mindset. Just because you lose once doesn't mean you don't keep trying, right? Yeah. But you did lose.

Mo Hamoudi 11:39

I did lose, and I got I've I've lost, I guess I I have lost, but I will not succumb to the situation um by accepting the the precept that your power over me has beat me. I that just my mindset will not allow me to do that. Like it will just won't do it, it won't register. At some point in my development, and yes, I was getting my butt kicked all the time, I decided I will no longer succumb to this concept of power because when power is exercised over you over a long period of time, I just don't bring that to any situation. But I hear you, I hear you that like it, you know, it it doesn't it doesn't experientially seem real.

Karen Koehler 12:23

Okay when you're not when you're not being a ruthless person, when you're not you know when you're not being an aggressive, ruthless lawyer, and when you're maybe being somebody else.

Mo Hamoudi 12:34

Okay.

Karen Koehler 12:35

You acknowledge that there's power?

Mo Hamoudi 12:37

There is, but then the process is I won't succumb to it. Even if like personally I'll sit.

Mike Todd 12:42

I'm confused. What do you define as not succumbing to power? Like, do you pay property taxes? That's the government putting power over. Do you uh obey laws like speed laws, stuff like that?

Mo Hamoudi 12:53

That's the government putting power over.

Karen Koehler 12:54

Stop a sign. Stop signing.

Mo Hamoudi 12:56

Okay, yeah, but these are like relationships that are governed by like rules that we've got to do.

Mike Todd 13:00

But that's called power over you.

Mo Hamoudi 13:01

It's just I have a participate in the power process. No, but I've consented to this process. I don't have to go live in this property. I don't have to go do these things, but I choose to do it. But they don't have power over me. It's about respecting the process, respecting the authority that that that is asked of me to do something. Maybe it's because maybe it's because of my past. Maybe it's not maybe it is something.

Mike Todd 13:25

Yeah, but look at look at I mean, I hate to bring politics into it again, but look at our president. He's breaking all of those rules. You can't tell me that he's not pushing power onto everyone else. And you are being affected by that just like Karen and I.

Mo Hamoudi 13:44

I just don't like to buy into this term of power.

Mike Todd 13:47

I understand what you're saying. You want to create the illusion that you're resisting, but that's all it is.

Karen Koehler 13:55

Oh killer. Okay, well, let's get it out of the courtroom and let's just put it into the office. Um I have power over you in case you haven't noticed.

Trauma, Coping, And Personal Power

Mike Todd 14:08

Yeah, I wasn't even this this was the initial one I thought of, and then I went with the government angle.

Mo Hamoudi 14:12

Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, um Do have power.

Karen Koehler 14:16

Do I have power over you?

Mo Hamoudi 14:18

Uh no. You don't.

Karen Koehler 14:23

I do too. No. I do.

Mo Hamoudi 14:26

No, you don't.

Karen Koehler 14:27

Yes, I do.

Mo Hamoudi 14:28

Nobody's illusion. It's going back to nobody has power over me. Nobody has power. People can do things to me. People can can can can harm me. People can say things to me. I just don't, I don't buy into this. And maybe it's because of my childhood. Maybe it's because of my past. Like at some point, I rewired the structure in my mind.

Karen Koehler 14:51

No, you didn't.

Mo Hamoudi 14:51

I did.

Karen Koehler 14:52

I'm gonna challenge you on that.

Mo Hamoudi 14:53

Okay.

Karen Koehler 14:53

Because you loved that book, Unbound, A Woman's Guide to Power. Absolutely.

Mo Hamoudi 14:57

I did like the book.

Karen Koehler 14:58

I know you read it and you loved it. It was all about power, power dynamics.

Mo Hamoudi 15:02

It was. Yes, but that that doesn't mean because I like the book that I buy into this concept.

Karen Koehler 15:10

You did. In fact, we can pull it up.

Mike Todd 15:12

Yeah, I was gonna say we might have to go back to that episode and get the uh transcript. Did I did I Oh, we talked about it. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 15:18

I don't think I said people have power over me. I don't think I said that.

Mike Todd 15:22

We'll go back and I'd have to go back to get the exact quotes, but I think that that was the discussion.

Mo Hamoudi 15:30

All right, let's go back to the courtroom, please. Okay. All right.

Karen Koehler 15:33

No, let's no, let's go to the stay in the office now. We're gonna stay in the office. Okay, because that's that's more relatable to a lot of people that don't go to the courtroom. Like the courtroom is obviously this environment governed by strict rules, with everybody with an assigned role, and there's like inherent, as Mike would say, patriarchal, or I would say Yeah, the judge is the final voice on any decisions being made. I'm gonna disagree with the judge, which I have, or I want to go after the judge, which I have. I know that it's gonna take another court to do it. Well, that's what I was gonna say.

Mike Todd 16:08

Then it goes, then it goes to another top judge, then it goes to another top judge.

Karen Koehler 16:12

So I'm gonna be preparing my appellate record for that judge, right? That's all I'm gonna be doing. I'm not gonna be going through straight through that judge. That that is not an option. So get out of the courtroom.

Mo Hamoudi 16:24

I'll get out of the courtroom.

Karen Koehler 16:25

And now we're gonna go.

Mo Hamoudi 16:27

Where do you want to go?

Karen Koehler 16:28

Well, let's just start with the workplace.

Mo Hamoudi 16:29

The workplace.

Karen Koehler 16:31

Employer, employee. I respect it. Is there power or no? No power.

Mike Todd 16:35

Well, there's absolute power. I mean, in the state, you have the choice to at any time tell me that I don't work here anymore without any decision. Thanks. Or without any excuse.

Karen Koehler 16:45

And in fact, that's what you want. You want, if you want, I know you do, Mo. If someone is not meeting our standards, you want them gone.

Mo Hamoudi 16:54

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I just I think that I think Who's gonna do that?

Karen Koehler 16:58

Well, the person that has power. Are you gonna fire someone in this office? You're gonna go, oh, that person just did not do it right. I'm gonna fire them.

Mo Hamoudi 17:06

Okay, but when people come and work at a firm or an office, they consent to the fact that they're an Adwill employee, and if they don't meet certain standards, that they're gonna be a choice in the state.

Courtroom Vs Workplace: Who Can Fire Whom

Mike Todd 17:16

He's trying to There is uh there's not a single choice that I could make on that. Mo, I just think controlled by the government on that choice. Absolutely. If we unless I move somewhere else, I do have that choice. You're correct. But that's not power, that's submitting to the power that's put onto you.

Karen Koehler 17:32

So Mike is being very insubordinate right now. Mo, do you have the power to fire Mike?

Mo Hamoudi 17:40

No.

Karen Koehler 17:41

Thank you. Do I?

Mo Hamoudi 17:43

Yes.

Karen Koehler 17:44

Yes.

Mo Hamoudi 17:45

Okay.

Karen Koehler 17:45

Case closed.

Mo Hamoudi 17:47

Okay. Does the c do I am I denying that the concept of power exists?

Mike Todd 17:52

No.

Mo Hamoudi 17:52

Oh, yes, you did.

Mike Todd 17:53

No, I said I No, you're just saying that he doesn't submit to it, which once again I call an illusion.

Mo Hamoudi 17:58

Have you read the book by Victor Frankel? Survived survived in a concentration camp. Um I don't remember. Um Okay. Okay. So it's a it's a it's it's a it's a mindset thing.

Karen Koehler 18:17

Um so let me say, first of all, I do want to get the let me just say, now that you've invoked Victor Frankel, that we do we are not denigrating nor taking anything away from people that have lived through trauma and have developed coping mechanisms because trauma, they were they were powerless within that trauma and were abused. We are not that is not this discussion.

Mo Hamoudi 18:49

I know, I know, I know, I know.

Karen Koehler 18:50

So no, but you don't know because the coping strategy that results from that, which is often no one has power over my mind. They might have power over my body, but they don't have power over my mind, and other similar things, right? I mean, that's it's a mantra that you will tell yourself to survive the abuse or the unfair abuse.

Consent, Laws, And The Illusion Of Choice

Mike Todd 19:16

Yeah, but some of those people have been broken during that process. And I mean, they have, uh then I would say that their mind has been taken.

Karen Koehler 19:22

But but but still, like there it's a coping mechanism thing, right?

Mike Todd 19:25

I agree.

Karen Koehler 19:26

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that is a that is something that's often necessary.

Mike Todd 19:32

Um and I would say that's personal power.

Karen Koehler 19:35

Correct. And it's also a mindset.

Mike Todd 19:38

Yes.

Karen Koehler 19:39

Okay. That's not what we're talking about.

Mo Hamoudi 19:41

Well, you're asking that's what you're talking about. But what I'm talking about for me is is that it's it's man's search for power is the not man's search, it's um forget the book's name. Um man's search for meaning. Uh the book you wrote that he survived the concentration camp is that he did not look for power, he looked for Meaning in the things that was that was happening to him in his life. And so whenever I am engaged in a situation, my mindset is what meaning I'm deriving from it. But that's a mindset that I developed a long time ago.

Karen Koehler 20:19

Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 20:19

But I mean, I acknowledge that, like, yeah, people can fire you, you got to pay your taxes and stuff. And so, but all of that also has a deeper meaning. All those relationships have a deeper meaning, separate and a part of how they govern your day-to-day life. I don't, I have a I don't maybe you're much better at this than I am. When I walk into a courtroom, I don't compartmentalize these things, and it's all functioning from that space of my total experience and how and that mindset that I bring into it. So I know that's maybe not practical for most people, but that's just since you asked, that's how I'm worried.

Karen Koehler 20:59

I'm just trying to think of a scenario that would work within the well, keep thinking about that because let me just say that the number one reason that people come to see us is because they don't have power.

Mike Todd 21:10

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 21:11

They've been wronged and they have no power. Um, and so they come to us to even the score. So I feel that to not recognize power is it will prevent you from be able from being able to fulfill your goals in life.

Insurance Companies And Life‑Or‑Death Decisions

Mo Hamoudi 21:38

Or the other way it says is that because power is illusory, you can have as much power as the other person as long as you can get them your mind into a space saying you will step into your power and own this situation. At the end of the day, reality is everybody dies, and in 50 years, no one's really going to remember us. Really, even a hundred years, much less. And to me, I just get the sense that sometimes when we're in the present moment, and maybe this is a survivor's mindset, and you're feeling overwhelmed by things that are happening to you, so much of that is about you just submitting to the power structure. And as soon as you start to change your mindset and say, no, wait a minute, you don't really have any power over me. I am allowing you, it's you, I'm allowing you to make me feel that way. This is a choice I make in my mind. Once you start to tweak that mindset and exercise the brain, get enough reps and and condition yourself to not see it that way, you start to see things a little bit differently. So I chose a long time ago and say, power is an illusion. Everybody's gonna die. You know, I mean, and so no one really has power. And so, yeah, over this particular moment, you're doing something to me, and you're doing something to me in order to make me feel like I am powerless. But I it's what I feel, I choose to feel that way. If I say, My God, the power of your excess, you're so powerful. That's my mindset. And so I when I started to change that, I just started to realize, I start to see things differently, at least my perspective. I go, you're not really, you have no power. I understand what you're doing right now, the practical realities of what's happening, but you really have no power. And it just gives me a better way to deal with things. So it's very idiosyncratic.

Karen Koehler 23:31

Well, no, it's I do believe it stems from trauma as a trauma response and a trauma rationale. But again, when you are in a firm like this, it is our duty to combat the power structures that are repressing our client. And so to not acknowledge that, I think is I don't think it serves anybody any good. I think it's very important to know what you're up against. I think it's very important to understand what resources are going to come against you because that person has that power or authority. I think, I think to be good in war, you have to know your enemy.

Mike Todd 24:13

Yeah, I would agree. Uh do you think that insurance companies have power?

Mo Hamoudi 24:17

I think that insurance companies um control so much over our day-to-day lives, whether or not they have power over people, yes. They have power over money and and how risk is assessed and they have power over like a recovery.

Mike Todd 24:36

You can't tell me that there's not life decisions that are made by insurance companies on a daily basis, yes, maybe hourly basis.

Equal Worth, Unequal Influence

Mo Hamoudi 24:43

Yes, but I just don't view it in that sense. When when I when I look at them, when I look at the insurance company, I go, one day you will cease to exist too. You, company, you people, all of you will be gone. And coming into an interaction from my sense, it gives me a different type of edge. Okay? It just gives me a different type of edge where I go, we're all the same. You are no different than me. I don't care how much you have or what you're doing, whatever you're saying, you're no different than me. Well, that's the difference. And so to me, it's like then the whole power structure thing that I see just dissipates. It just kind of dissipates for me. I understand.

Mike Todd 25:28

You you I mean, I don't want to say it in a harsh way, but you that's your that's your view on it. But I disagree in the fact that if a company can make decisions that affect life and death, then they have power over those people that are participating in that. So anyone that has insurance in the entire world, those companies have power over them. At least that's what I believe. And I I think if you I I believe what you said that all people are equal, doesn't matter how much money or power you have. As people, we are equal. But that does not mean that the power influence that those companies as a collective have over other people is not real power. It is real power.

Mo Hamoudi 26:20

I don't deny that, Mike. I I don't deny that. I just say that I don't buy into it when I walk into an interaction. Like I don't buy into that nomenclature, I don't buy into that language. And so it gives it makes me a different person. It just makes you a different friend, a different human, different lawyer. I think differently about the cases, I think differently about how to approach things. It just makes me different. But I mean, this is this is just like you're right. I mean, probably is a survivor's mechanism that I developed uh at some point, and it's worked for me, and I enjoy it.

Fighting Back And Shifting Fear

Karen Koehler 26:55

I I think it's a semantical issue because because it's yes, it's delusional. Um, here's what I like. Here's what I like. Yeah, I like irreverence. I like going up against them, and who cares? I like the guts of it. I completely agree with that. We're in line in that regard, right? But that can coexist with understanding that, yeah, they have a lot of power. And and and it's not just in in this in the cycle of, I mean, look at where the power is. Look at Jeff Bezos' power, look at Elon Musk's power, look at they have they are dominating the satellite business, the robots that are coming, and the rules that used to apply are being thrown away like they never existed before. Our whole power structure of society has been upended and will continue to be upended by what's going on.

Mo Hamoudi 27:59

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 27:59

Okay. You can't, and I think that what my my issue is is that the difference I think the difference for someone like me that did not have significant trauma. Oh, I had trauma. We a lot of us, you know, most of us had some kind of trauma, but like abusive, overwhelming power is that I'm not afraid of acknowledging it. And I'm not saying you're afraid of it, but I feel that you feel that by acknowledging it, it lessens you. Whereas I'm like, yes, be irreverent, fight the power, you know, fight the power, you know, all that stuff. But it exists, it's a reality. So what?

Pragmatism, Outcomes, And The Long Game

Mike Todd 28:44

Well, and I would just say, I mean, I'll go back to the last fight that I was in. I walked out of a bar while I was drunk with a friend of mine, and I had gone to the bathroom before he went outside. When I came out, there were six people surrounding him and kicking him. I went in and fought. We both got our asses kicked. I walked away with black eye, bloody nose. You know, I I was, you know, I was in bad shape. Did I not go fight against that power? No. But I knew I was gonna get my ass kicked. I did it because my friend was getting his ass kicked, and I thought that I should try to help him, even though I knew I was probably gonna get beat up. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have power over us. They did. And because I fought against power, that's what you want to keep doing. And I think that that's your view on it is that you don't recognize it as power because you're always gonna keep fighting. But I'm a realist and I believe that they still have power over me, even though I'm willing to get my ass kicked. And I'm delusional. Those are Karen's words.

Mo Hamoudi 29:51

Yeah, you know, I mean, if it even if it is, I will even admit and agree that that I have created a delusional construct in my mind. And it may it just and that's fine. You know, I'll I'll I'll even take that. But you know, it just, you know, I think it's the reps. I think like when you get reps, you can you get reps. It's like shooting a basketball. If you go shoot a thousand shots, a thousand free throws, your percentage will just get better in how many free throws you make. And if you take the reps of start to see the relationships that society's created to create in my mind, how it impacts me, power structure, which is real for a lot of people, I'm not denying it, and and real for the world. If you start to rep in your mind a mindset that, like, no, I don't buy into that, it changes how you approach, how you speak, and how you relate, and how they feel about you.

Mike Todd 30:47

Well, yeah, I was gonna say, when you're willing to fight against people who either perceive they have power or actually do have power, it can take away some of their power and make them afraid. And that's what you guys do a lot.

Karen Koehler 31:03

That's right.

Mike Todd 31:07

Well you said it, Mike. That's precisely the reason why. But that doesn't mean that they still don't have power.

Mo Hamoudi 31:15

Yeah.

Mike Todd 31:15

It just means we're always willing to fight.

Mo Hamoudi 31:17

Yeah. But it's And if there's enough people willing to fight, then you can usually win. But when somebody who who thinks they have power over you realizes this person does not believe that at all in their soul. And they realize that the realization, when you see it in their eyes, is empowering. It shifts energy back into your body in a way in a situation. I've seen it and it's I like it. It's satisfying in so many ways. And I'm delusional, I'm willing to admit it.

Karen Koehler 32:06

And you not caring and still doing what Mike did.

Mo Hamoudi 32:10

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 32:10

That's the same, it doesn't elevate you any differently because you either in your mind want them to know that you don't recognize them having power, or in action you don't care if they have power. You know, that's it's the same result.

Mike Todd 32:28

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 32:29

It's exactly the same result. It doesn't, I don't believe that it changes fundamentally anything by having a different than having to make an assumption of why you're doing it.

Mike Todd 32:39

But I mean, come on, it's still like in the in the example of insurance companies, in the long run, I mean, that's their business is making sure that they lose they win more than they lose, essentially.

Karen Koehler 32:53

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 32:54

Yeah.

Mike Todd 32:55

So it's a game in the end to them. Yeah. You know, so they're just they're just sort of slopping that power around wherever they can and figuring out as long as they do it more than 50% of the time, they're in business. Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 33:10

All right. That's a okay. That's a good episode.

Closing: Agreeing To Disagree On Power

Karen Koehler 33:13

We are never gonna come to agreement on this issue. No, we're not.

Mo Hamoudi 33:16

That was a good debate. That's fine. All right. Okay, do we have