The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

Preparing for Trial

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 6 • Episode 1

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0:00 | 35:40

Episode 1: Preparing for Trial 

Season six opens with Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd discussing the emotional and physical shift that happens when a trial is coming. The sleep changes. The aggression sharpens. The energy spikes. 

Karen talks candidly about how her body knows a trial is coming before her brain catches up, why she sleeps less, gets spicier, and becomes laser-focused weeks in advance. Mo breaks down how he prepares without overpreparing, why living inside the story matters more than scripts, and how artistic instincts shape trial work. Mike brings the jury perspective, including how lawyer dynamics and confidence land in the room.

They dig into overpreparing versus trusting your instincts, why some lawyers isolate, and others stay fully engaged in life, how antagonistic defense counsel can fuel preparation, and why juries need time to earn the fight. 

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Mo Hamoudi :

All right.

Karen Koehler :

Season six.

Mo Hamoudi :

Elvis is out of the bag. I mean, Elvis has left the building. The cat's out of the bag.

Karen Koehler :

Is this is this is this number one?

Mo Hamoudi :

This is season six, episode one. We have successfully uh completed an entire season.

Karen Koehler :

Well, I've completed five entire seasons, but that's beside the point.

Mo Hamoudi :

Of course, she wants to be the winner, the number one, the conqueror, the champion.

Karen Koehler :

But most importantly, you survived an entire season.

Mike Todd:

Yeah. And Mike did too.

Karen Koehler :

Mike had no problem.

Mike Todd:

Well, I've been here since the beginning.

Mo Hamoudi :

I just haven't spoken until the topic for our first episode of season six.

Karen Koehler :

Preparing for trial.

Mo Hamoudi :

Preparing for trial.

Karen Koehler :

Emotionally.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, how do you do that? Because I know you're preparing right now.

Karen Koehler :

Well, the question is: do you actually prepare emotionally or do your emotions take care of themselves?

Mo Hamoudi :

I don't sleep when I'm preparing for trial.

Karen Koehler :

So very interesting. Okay. So about a week ago, I typically sleep six, seven hours a day or night. I went down a good hour. So I uh I'm at about five and a half to six, five to five and a half, somewhere in there. Okay. And I am awake and ready to go. And that is just a body thing. Like your body. If I didn't believe in body emotional health before, as I've gotten older, I have seen these relationships. My biological clock. Is that biological clock? No. Okay. Whatever the biology of my internal clock.

Mo Hamoudi :

Your sleep clock. Your circadian rhythm.

Mike Todd:

Wait, wait, what was that thing you called it? Circadian rhythm.

Karen Koehler :

It changes, and I'm not even in trial. But it's the anticipation of the trial, and it's already changed.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay, so like, is that like an animal instinct? You're but going into the hunt mode?

Karen Koehler :

I don't know, but it is. It's it's it's so wait, do you sleep more now or less now?

Mike Todd:

Oh no, I sleep less.

Mo Hamoudi :

You sleep less. Okay.

Karen Koehler :

I will go to bed somewhere around one-ish, and I will wake up before six.

Mo Hamoudi :

And then are you, as you're laying down, what is happening in your mind?

Karen Koehler :

I'm not thinking about the trial that I'm aware of.

Mo Hamoudi :

I'm What the hell are you thinking about?

Karen Koehler :

Well, I don't this isn't that kind of a podcast.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, you are you said about it.

Karen Koehler :

So the answer is is that I don't know why I do this. It obviously is related to the the expectation that I'm going to trial and I'm changing. And when you're in trial, you do sleep less because you have so much to do. But I'm not in trial. I'm way ahead. I'm way ahead of this case. I've done everything, everything's on track. There's no procrastination involved. Kristen and I are like a well-oiled machine just getting this thing done. So I'm not sitting there thinking, oh no, I didn't do this, or oh no, I didn't do that. It's just my body is ready. Yeah. It's ready. And so that's number one. However, there's even a precursor to that, and you have experienced it, and Mike, you've experienced it. Both of you experienced this. It started about a month to a month and a half ago, maybe two. What did you notice about me?

Mike Todd:

Starting to get spicy.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, you're very spicy, very aggressive, very peppery. Like it just it's all starts and it's excitement.

Mike Todd:

Yeah. Well, it's just your body amping up in preparation, you know.

Karen Koehler :

Yes.

Mike Todd:

I think you've done it so many times, it's like it automatically switches into that sort of fight mode, probably.

Karen Koehler :

But also if you're like if you were an actor or you know, someone doing use when you're getting ready for that thing, like a method actor, right? They start taking on. Well, for whatever reason, and this is not very self-explored. I just noticed these things and we're having a podcast. I thought talk about it. I start getting aggressive. More so than normal. Um, and it's not just a little aggressive, it's like constant. I mean, you should see Mo is rolling his eyes, but Mo, how can you tell?

Mo Hamoudi :

Because you're like you just you're you're you're you're quick, and then you you get pissed off real fast, and then you're you just like, and then you attack, and then like you, you throw jabs. You're just like and then I'm laughing like I don't mind it, but I think it's just like a different side of you.

Karen Koehler :

It's also not a negative energy, it's a very positive, aggressive.

Mike Todd:

No, it's been playful. Yeah, that's what I would say. I mean, it was like I was thinking about to yesterday when we were recording it. And I mean, that was just it. She was just incorrigible.

Karen Koehler :

Incorrigible. And then I talked to him, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm super mean, and I'm also really nice all at the same time. He's like, you drive me nuts.

Mo Hamoudi :

She does, you know, because like because like you you're like you're like getting overwhelmed by the spice, and then and then she just like softens it and then takes you up and then softens it.

Mike Todd:

And it just like I was like you were saying, it kind of riles us up. Oh, I know, it gets you. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I know.

Karen Koehler :

So the so there's this like anticipation of a trial. And the other thing is like we had another case um where that would be tried after this case. We can't get excited about that case because it may settle. And that's the thing about a case, is I used to get excited about all cases. Like, oh, I'm so excited, we're gonna try this case, and then they settle, which is so disappointing. And so now I don't really I spare myself the sadness of not being able to go to trial by not allowing myself to get into this mode until I know we're gonna go to trial. We've known that we're gonna go to trial on this case for a couple months, which is when this all started. We know for sure. Yeah, and so we're just getting ready to do that. And that all your senses have to be alert, everything is gonna be, you know, magnified. We've already talked about that. You have a super really nasty defense lawyer, which I love having a terrible protagonist, like that nasty defense lawyer antagonist. My favorite, yeah, favorite archetype to go against is a really nasty defense lawyer. Yeah, you don't want the really nice ones.

Mike Todd:

No, no, no. You want a villain?

Karen Koehler :

Really bad ones. They just get you even more riled up. So they sent me something yesterday. Oh, they added more exhibits, and I'm like, stop wasting my time. You know, you should have done that like two weeks ago. You know, you're just like, you're just brutal and and funny and delighted all at the same time. Kristen and I just are we go, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It's you're on and you're doing all this stuff.

Mo Hamoudi :

And then you're going through these swings, and then what do you do? How do you how do you come off? Are you in the swing the entire day, entire night?

Karen Koehler :

I don't even feel like like to me, I'm just noticing it and I'm paying attention to it, and that's why we're having this podcast, because normally I disregard that stuff and I just act out.

Mo Hamoudi :

Does your does your immediate environment like give you feedback other than me and Mike, like tell you, like, hey, you know, wow, okay, she's in trial mode, distance, you know, like the experience.

Karen Koehler :

You could pull my children and you can say, like, the people around here, but the the hallmarks for me are often I get really quiet the busier I am. Like I get really quiet, believe it or not, yeah, because I'm so intensely in it.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

But then, like, just before this, I was prepping some trial witnesses, and you're doing all this different stuff. Yeah, you're doing all this paperwork because I'm trying this case, sorry, Mo, by myself. So I'm doing a lot of paperwork. I am doing all the witness prep. I'm gonna be, I know every single thing about the case, which I normally don't do. I normally try case with the team.

Mike Todd:

I know.

Karen Koehler :

So I'm feeling even more so than normal, jazzed up about this case.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, what I've kind of been impressed by is that your energy level has been consistent. You've not been like crashing tired at all. No. And then the other thing is is your your your stamina is is pretty darn impressive because you're still managing a law firm and we're still working all the other cases. So it's not been like you're unavailable, I can't get a hold of you. Um but I think how do you get to a place where you can uh so uh focused, prepare for a trial while managing all these other responsibilities?

Karen Koehler :

Well, Mike knows that this is how I've always been.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

I have like a new paralegal um Jamie who started working with me, and Patty started working with me, and they're like, well, when we work with our other attorneys, like we know never to have anything booked for you for you know the month before, the month after. For me, that's like, no. You can book me on Fridays, you can book me. I've done been doing week weekend meetings, I have an arbitration that I'm gonna do on a weekend. Um for me, it just all keeps going.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah. Okay. It's impressive.

Karen Koehler :

Well, or or not.

Mo Hamoudi :

You know, what do you mean overdo it?

Karen Koehler :

Well, you can overdo it. Just because you feel good doesn't mean that that is good.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, I mean, I think that, you know, as long as you have your reps, your ritual, health, um, some sleep, eat well, like for me, not drink, you know. Um, you just gotta get your body to a place where you're just like getting ready to go like into, I mean, battle, but playing a sport. You know what I mean? It's just you're you're getting ready for a fight. It's an intellectual fight, but in reality, it's just a fight. So you you gotta, it's like Rocky, you gotta go train.

Karen Koehler :

You have to Yeah, for me, for me, whether I'm in a team or not, there's some survival skills involved.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And again, part of your inherentness as a human being affects your ability to do it without you know, crash and burning. One number one is your speed. Yeah, we've talked about this before. Who's faster?

Mo Hamoudi :

I am.

Karen Koehler :

I'm faster. I am faster. I just answered you faster. No, no, no, no, no.

Mo Hamoudi :

I am so much faster.

Karen Koehler :

But and then you have people closer. But quickness is an inherent skill, yes, um, and uh and a blessing when you're a trial lawyer. Number two is organized. Number three is comes with age or practice is knowing how much to prepare.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Um, because you can over-prepare.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Um now, some people say you can never over-prepare, but but you can. Um, you can over-prepare. And when you over-prepare, for example, when I used to do closing arguments, I would stay up all night and then present my because I can I can do that, which is very I I do not recommend it. I used to do it when I was younger way more. Um, but where I just don't didn't go to sleep. And I would pull my own all-nighters, maybe sleep 45 minutes, take a cat nap, and then go do it. And what I realized, and I stopped doing that about 15 years ago, even though I could do it, I don't feel like I was as fresh as I needed to be. I needed the space. I wasn't, it wasn't that I was fatigued personally enough, although I was more. I needed to have let it percolate. I needed to have trusted myself to tell that story without having spent all night having to do it. So um the way that you plan things, the way that you work on your cross-examinations or your examinations, the way that you plan for an opening or a closing, you have to, for me, I'm gonna prepare and I'm gonna prepare a lot, but I'm not gonna overprepare and I'm not gonna stop my life to only do this because I feel like if you do that you overload your psyche, your brain, and you just don't function at peak optimal. So I like, I like to have enough space, and it may not be time space, but uh to step away. I will go. I I watch so many movies during trial. I can't tell you how many movies I've watched during a trial. Many trials. I don't think I've ever gone in a trial and not watched a movie on a night of one of the nights of the trial because that two hours, I needed that two hours to get away from it.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah. It's pretty good. This is it's gonna be interesting to see how this uh unfolds.

Karen Koehler :

But many people are not like that. No, a lot of people. They are immersed and they do not want to talk about anything else. They don't I know people that have children that would go stay in a hotel.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, that's nuts. I don't like doing it. But a lot of people it's really not nuts, though.

Karen Koehler :

I mean, I can understand it as a single mother of three children. Yeah, I get it, but I didn't have that luxury.

Mike Todd:

I think those kind of become like the rituals that you guys do too, because I I remember some of the other attorneys that aren't here anymore, like they would take over a conference room for months and months of a time on their like just them, nobody else. And uh and stuff like that. Like, you know, just the stuff that you guys do to prepare for trial is definitely uh individual.

Karen Koehler :

It is different. People do it different ways. My way is like, can you tell that I'm getting ready for trial in the office? Yeah, how?

Mike Todd:

Oh, well, I mean, like I said yesterday, I mean, just because we've been doing these stuff.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, but if you did if you weren't talking to me.

Mike Todd:

If I wasn't talking, if I wasn't talking directly to you, I wouldn't know right now. Yeah. No, you've just been operating as normal. You you were away, you returned from being away, and you were suddenly back in the office again.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

And the edit was just like normal.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah. But it is it is interesting, you know, everybody's very different. And what I also then, so this is a kind of the pre-trial phase. And I thought we would, you know, talk about that. Like, what do you do? We can talk about it later, about what it's like actually in trial, but in the pretrial phase, what what are you going through? And and especially with the other attorneys, right? And the judge. So we had a a meeting yesterday with our judge who we're gonna lose because she's gonna do a murder trial, and that defense attorney, and another defense attorney, and Kristen and I. And you know, we're doing these status conferences every week because the judge wants to keep us on track. I can't hardly even look at him without just wanting to roll my eyes or gnash my teeth. Now, that's not true for all defense lawyers, but a good number of them. So I guess that's my next question is do we have to villainize the our opponent in order to really feel like we're operating at peak level as trial lawyers? That's a good one.

Mike Todd:

I believe that you have to villainize your opponent to some degree, but I also think that just like any battles, soldiers have to have some sort of respect for their enemy.

Karen Koehler :

What do you so when you were when you were a juror watching it, what were the dynamics that you saw between the two sides? Okay. And did they make any impact on you?

Mike Todd:

Did they what? Make an impact on it.

Karen Koehler :

Did it make an impact on me? Watching how they how they interrelated.

Mike Todd:

Uh yeah, it very much did. Uh first off, the uh prosecutor, it was his first trial. Um, and he was to me visibly scared the entire time. I don't know, I I feel like he was covering it pretty well, but I really was like, oh god.

Karen Koehler :

And how did you know, how did you know it was their first trial?

Mike Todd:

Um I did not know until afterwards. They told us afterwards when they were doing the um jury questions. Uh well actually, maybe it was uh they came back to the jury room, just the just the attorneys, and that was when it was, I think. Um but yeah, I mean he just didn't look sure of himself, and the the uh defense attorney was extremely sure of herself, and uh I thought did a very good job while he the the prosecution very much seemed like they were pushing this whole idea, um all of the evidence that they put and the order that they put it in very much seemed like they were setting up a narrative of what had happened. And uh when we went in, that was what most of the people agreed with, too. Like they had just walked in and were like, oh yeah, prosecution's right, boom. And uh it was the way that he presented the evidence and the way that the defense attorney reacted, kind of is the way that I would say it. Like she seemed to have she seemed to be a little bit more sure of herself than I thought she should have.

Karen Koehler :

Did you notice any kind of antagonism between them?

Mike Todd:

When you describe that, uh it seemed like she was baiting him a lot. Yeah, it sounds like somebody shocker, shocker, technique, yeah. So I mean it seemed like Did you enjoy that?

Karen Koehler :

Oh, yeah, I did. So what so what was so when you saw her baiting him? Not that I know anybody that would ever do that. How did that make you feel as a jury?

Mike Todd:

Uh well, because I kind of agree. I I was on the opposite side. I agreed with the defense, and uh I I liked that she was sort of jabbing a little bit because I felt, like I said, I felt that the prosecution had this story that they were like, that's it, this is the way it was, and you've got to believe it because here, look, there's two police officers that are telling you that's the way it is, and that's the way it is. And uh I just I believed her more in her opening. And as the evidence came out, I tried to look at it both ways, but you know, like I I really felt that she convinced me by the time it was over.

Karen Koehler :

Well, I mean, this could be a good topic for future use too. Um maybe we should like do a part two on the dynamics during the trial. Like, how much does the presentation impact the facts? We should hold that and do that, you know, as another one. Um, but but it is interesting just the dynamics between the lawyers, and what I'll tell you what doesn't work. What doesn't work every there's exceptions for everything. Jurors don't often like to see the lawyers fighting with. Each other.

Mike Todd:

Oh, yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Until they do. Um, so I've I've been in cases I learned early, like they don't really want to see you fighting with each other, but then sometimes they do. And I've also learned as a female trial lawyer, um, they don't like to see me fighting until they do. And when they do, I call it when they give me permission. I can sense it. I have you know, the a big example was the case I have with John Henry Brown.

Mike Todd:

That's where I was gonna go with this because I I remember watching this and seeing this happen.

Karen Koehler :

And you wanted to you wanted me to hit back, didn't you?

Mike Todd:

Oh, yeah. No, well, I think it's a it's almost like a thing where they get I won't say sympathy, but like they want you to fight back.

Karen Koehler :

Correct.

Mike Todd:

You know, they're in your corner.

Karen Koehler :

So it's like what you have to do in that situation is you have to let yourself be beat on a little bit. And then you will then you will know when that you will know when the time is right for you to defend yourself, or in my case, attack. Well, that is that is defending yourself at that point. Yes, it is. It is. And so I don't believe that there's any like definitive rule in that regard. What do you think, Mo?

Mo Hamoudi :

About which aspect of it? Pre-trial, preparing one?

Karen Koehler :

You know, really talking about inner, you know, the inner relationship with the other attorney.

Mike Todd:

In a relationship.

Karen Koehler :

And how does that affect you going into trial? We touched on it a little bit in trial, but I you know, this was supposed to be about really you're getting ready for trial. You really like the person that you're going against versus you really don't like the person you're going with. And how does that change up?

Mo Hamoudi :

To me, I just when I look at the other lawyer, I just see them as like an obstacle in the way of the case, a lot of the times. Because what they're there to do uh is to obstruct. They're just obstructionists. So I always try to figure out what's the best way to get that other lawyer to keep the case moving along. Like whatever I need to do to allow that to happen, whatever persona or temperament is needed, that's that's what that's what I do. I may need to be nice because nice works. I may need to be not nice because not nice works, you know. Um but I don't think about the lawyers as much.

Karen Koehler :

Give me an example of being not nice.

Mo Hamoudi :

Uh being not nice. Quick. Uh I mean uh just you know, getting getting on a getting on a call and just being like, just just looking at them, you know. Like that.

Karen Koehler :

No one can see you that's not watching.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah. Well, looking at them like that, I'm and asking them, what are you doing? You know, what are you doing? Do you know what you're doing? Do you even have any idea what you're doing? Do you know what the rules are? I'm going to read this rule to you slowly. And then I'll bring the rule up and I'll slowly read it. I want to make sure that you and I have an understanding of this rule. Do we? Do we? Okay. All right, let's apply this rule to these facts, and then I'm going to ask you a question. I mean, so sometimes, because I feel that, I mean, that's a little bit condescending. That is condescending. Some people need to be condescended to because they're just bullies. Um, but that's that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is that I am thinking about the case. I'm thinking about the story, what it's gonna look like. I don't sit there and like plan out detailed scripts. I just keep absorbing the story. I keep exposing myself to the story, either through the witnesses, through the documents that I'm reading, and then I just start to see the movie. I see the film. I can literally see it, and I run different uh cuts. I go, okay, this is gonna come out like this. And then I look for there's a there's a moment there, there's a moment, an opportunity for that part of the case to come to life in a way that's like super magical. And you just start to see it, and then and then you I don't commit to it, I just see it, and then and that's it. So even when I'm even when I'm preparing, I don't overly prepare. I like to go play basketball, I like to hang out. I totally agree with her. If you're too deep into the stuff before you go into trial, actually is not productive.

Mike Todd:

So I I even say, don't you think that that's where you you if you've over-prepared, even if you have prepared just enough, everything can start to go wrong when you're at trial and you have to totally change what you were planning on doing anyway, right?

Karen Koehler :

Well, we've talked about that, you know, when you over-prepare, it's good to prepare, and it's good to be very prepared. Don't get me wrong. But I feel like you're over-prepared when you have a script for everybody. Like for me, like I'm talking to some trial witnesses who I know are gonna try. I did it right before we came down to the podcast. I'm like, yeah, you're not gonna get a script for me. I'm not gonna tell you the questions I'm gonna ask. This is what I'm like you to do. I'd like you to think about this. You can get me back, call me back and give me an example. Um, because I want you to think in terms of this way, and this is what you can expect from this is how the procedure, and this is you know how how you're gonna get called, and the defense is gonna, you know, maybe say this, and but there's no script. Um, and for opening argument in this case, the last case I tried against this guy, he wouldn't he objected to every single visual. So I did it without visuals. I'm known for using visuals. I don't need to use visuals.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

So it when you over-prepare, you rely too much on the fact that you've over-prepared. It makes you, it gives you a false sense that you're ready. Whereas you're ready because you've been working on this case for a year and a half, and you know the facts and the law better than anyone else. And for me, I want you to, for me, what I need to do is that my my brain, my whole processing needs to work. And it doesn't work if all I do is live, breathe, and diet, because that that's obnoxious to me. That's not fun. That is soul sucking. That is, it's it's it's crushing to me. It would crush me, it would, it would bog me down. I want that creative energy thing that gets when you don't do that, when you don't overdo it. It's a fine line.

Mo Hamoudi :

It is a fine line. It is a fine line. Ultimately, I mean, I'm thinking about what's gonna make make the story compelling for the jury. I really like I'm constantly thinking, like, what are they gonna like? Are they gonna like this character? Or how if I'm hard on this character, um, you know, the witnesses, is it gonna look bad on me? Can I push a little bit? And sometimes I'll test this things out. What's the wonderful part about civil work? The deposition. We never had depositions in criminal, you just went to trial. So in civil work, you get depositions. So I get to test the emotional capacity of a witness during a deposition. I will push a little bit, see how they respond, be more subtle, and then I realize, okay, I see who this person is. And then I think, like, okay, this is how this would play out in front of a jury. So a lot of the times, if I'm very aggressive with a witness in deposition, I'll be entirely different in front of the jury because I know that that's not going to resonate.

Mike Todd:

Do you think that that's something that you developed after being in criminal law and having to do it on the fly all the time?

Mo Hamoudi :

No, I think that's from being an artist, like being a poet and an actor in New York City and a writer.

Karen Koehler :

And what we would do is a person that who studies human nature.

Mo Hamoudi :

Human nature. So, like it was we did a lot of improvisational work, and what we would do is we would be in the moment and just sort of build stories. Um and it's just that.

Karen Koehler :

I mean let's pause there. You cannot be in the moment when you are focusing on the next question because you wrote it down on a script.

Mike Todd:

Yes. Oh, yeah. To be in the moment, you're not going to be able to do that You have to be thinking about what you're doing at that time.

Karen Koehler :

You have to be listening, you have to be right there. To be in the moment means to be actually in the moment, not ahead of it, not behind it. And to be in that moment means you have to give up control.

Mo Hamoudi :

So, like she did this, uh she's she does this really well, actually. When she's dealing with a person who's been harmed uh or lost somebody. And and what she does is that she has like three or four photos, and she knows exactly where she's gonna go with the witness. She has no questions written down, she just has the four photos, and then she'll walk up and she'll just start having a conversation with them. And as she's having a conversation with them, she brings up a photo and has a conversation about the photo, and it has a conversation about the person and what they lost, and just keeps kind of talking. And then, sort of like three or four photos in, and the conversation's over. And what the photo and what that does is that rather than her sitting there and asking a list of questions, because she's got to get the facts out for the evidence to make the argument, what she's done is connected uh the witness to the jury through conversation. And you're like kind of watching a movie.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, but we're off the top off the topic. Oh, we are preparing for trail. Yeah, we we got way far away.

Mo Hamoudi :

Oh, we got way far away.

Karen Koehler :

However, there's there's another thing that's happening while you're getting wrapped up.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And that is that you are sharing your joy with the defense lawyer.

Mike Todd:

Oh, yeah.

Karen Koehler :

The jabs come fast. Yes. The jabs are everywhere, and they have been, you know, they've been they've been coming on in the depositions and the meetings and the motions, but as you're getting closer to trial, yeah, now you're engaged. And with a defenser who I don't like, it's so fun. It's like I can't describe how do you describe what I'm even trying to describe to someone that doesn't get to be mean for a living against someone that they detest because they're trying to wreck their client's life.

Mo Hamoudi :

That's hard because most people in life don't deal with this and feel uh powerless, uh, you know, when when they're in their own personal lives, you know, dealing with this. But I think it's a very unique discipline that we're in. Lawyers get to, in a controlled setting, engage an adversary that, in your case, is truly an antagonist. Not only because an antagonist because they represent a side that is contrary to your side, but they don't they personally try to make life uncomfortable for you. I mean, this person is just, you know, is a not a good person. And so it makes it uh, I think it gives you that dynamic where when they say that they're not a good person.

Karen Koehler :

Right. I think I I don't want to I don't well, I don't want to judge people because I only know them in the context of what they're doing. What they're doing is not nice.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay, well then it's not good.

Karen Koehler :

And I'm just trying to be generous here. You but going back, and I want to cut off the cut off the topic of you know how this kind of bleeds into the beginning of trial, is you have to be really cautious of that.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Because like you can't stand that other person, right? Because you have let that be building and building, and now you were here and you are antagonistic. Well, the jury hasn't had time to catch up to that. You don't get to start off just being unholy meaningful.

Mike Todd:

You can't be yelling at each other and expect them to have any idea what's going on.

Karen Koehler :

You can't. It has to the jury has to see for themselves, wow, that guy's horrible. I hope she beats him up, right? That process has to happen. And I've misread that process in the past. I I don't think I've misread it in a long time, but I can remember one time, a long time ago, where um the defense lawyer um wanted to wanted to use my um my screen and projector. And I said, no, right in front of the jury. And I remember them saying, like, why didn't you let him do it? Well, the answer was because like he can go get his own stuff and he's mean. And now I wouldn't do that unless, well, first of all, I would have made that clear at the beginning. But it happened with John Henry Brown, and the jury was kind of thought it was hilarious because he had had no tech, we had the tech, and several days or weeks had come, maybe a week had come come into the trial. And he asked for Had to start putting stuff up, and I said, Farhad, take everything down.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And the jury watched it, and they didn't get mad at me. But if I'd done that at the very beginning, they would have been like, What is going on here? Why does she is just awful?

Mike Todd:

Well, and it was doubly bad because then the rest of the trial, I can remember, he didn't know how to operate anything and just looked like he had no idea what was going on. It made him look horrible. I've never seen an attorney, and he knew it. He was just falling apart. Horrible.

Karen Koehler :

Horrible. Yeah. So you really, I guess the bottom line is things start happening. You are changing, you are gearing up to trial. Your body is taking on a life of its own. You're sleeping less, you're more aggressive, whatever you're doing, your mind's, you know, all over the place, um, with joy and happiness, and also just trying to figure out how you're gonna fit everything in. But at the same time, you have to be very strategic about what's going on. Yeah, you have to know that your disinterest or dislike of the other person cannot make itself known initially. You have to know that you have to, you know, behave this way or that way, or you have to be conscious of this with this expert or that expert or whatever's happening. So you can't just let your emotions go.

Mike Todd:

No.

Karen Koehler :

As strong as they are, the strategic part of you has to be engaged the whole time.

Mike Todd:

You have to take the higher road in in that kind of battle, in my opinion. Because if you don't, then you're you endanger yourself to looking back.

Karen Koehler :

And you know what? It's the client that comes first.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And I, as much as I would like to just let loose, I am never gonna put my client second. So my self-indulgence of my need to just like slap somebody is always gonna give way towards I'm gonna be professional and I'm gonna do exactly what I need to do with this other person in this courtroom. I don't want the judge mad at me, I want the judge to like me. And that's another issue right there is yeah, the judge, now, pot shots, the judges don't like it. But if I'm gonna say, Your Honor, I think this judge, this this attorney is using AI, and the judge says, I do too, that's not a pot shot.

Mike Todd:

No. Yeah. And that's what I was gonna say is you gotta make sure that you stay on the right side of the judge. Because if you don't, then like you've been on the receiving end of that, and it is brutal the entire trial, right? Correct. Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, this is good. Well, let's see. We we're gonna have to do it once uh you do the trial and see what how that goes. But um uh keep us posted. Okay. Okay.

Mike Todd:

Over.

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Karen Koehler

Co-host
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Mo Hamoudi

Co-host

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