The ACLU Lawsuit Challenging ICE’s Operation Metro Surge

Season 6, Episode 5: The ACLU Lawsuit Challenging ICE’s Operation Metro Surge

A young Somali American U.S. citizen is tackled and detained by ICE in Minnesota, then later pepper-sprayed while filming a protest. That moment becomes the flashpoint for a federal class action brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, challenging ICE’s Operation Metro Surge.

Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd unpack how visual cues, surnames, and assumptions turn into a pretext for stops, and how fast “show me your papers” spirals when most citizens don’t carry proof of citizenship. 

They walk through the lawsuit’s core claims, including Fourth Amendment protections against unlawful seizures and equal protection challenges to racially targeted enforcement, and clarify what ICE can and cannot do under federal law.

The conversation widens to lived experience, family histories shaped by Nazi Germany and Jim Crow, and the unease that sets in when communities start bracing for enforcement instead of living freely. 

From Seattle school alerts to what happens next in court, this episode stays focused on the real question. Where does federal authority stop, and who draws the line?

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

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Transcript

The Case And First Plaintiff

Karen Koehler 0:05

Of the first one.

Mo Hamoudi 0:06

No.

Karen Koehler 0:06

Tell us the first story.

Mo Hamoudi 0:08

Stop. Stop. Stop.

Karen Koehler 0:10

Do it.

Mo Hamoudi 0:11

Come on. Okay. All right. The ACLU has filed a class action and they have identified representative plaintiffs. And the first story is about a gentleman by the name of Mubashir Khalif Hussein. And he is a 20-year-old Somali American U.S. citizen who works in mental health services in Minneapolis. What happened to him is that he was tackled, put in a headlock, dragged into an SUV, and taken to an ICE field office despite repeatedly telling the ICE agents that he's a citizen, has proof, and then was pepper sprayed at a protest while filming from a sidewalk at a later time.

Who’s Suing And Why Minnesota

Karen Koehler 1:04

Okay. And this class action is focused on Minnesota.

Mo Hamoudi 1:11

Yes, it's brought in federal court in Minnesota by Somali and Latino U.S. citizens and immigrants.

Karen Koehler 1:18

And I didn't know this, but Minnesota has the largest population of Somali um people from Somalia or people that are from Somali, Somalia in the United States.

Mo Hamoudi 1:31

That's right.

Karen Koehler 1:31

It's about almost 70,000. 78,000, something like that. And the Latino population is about 388,000.

Mike Todd 1:38

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 1:39

And all of the people that they brought this on behalf of are US citizens, either born here or um, the the complaint involves not only U.S.

Mo Hamoudi 1:51

citizens but also immigrants.

Karen Koehler 1:53

Okay. And the reason for the complaint is because how are these how are the ICE agents interacting with these people to begin with?

Mo Hamoudi 2:01

Well, the challenge is a mass racially targeted uh ICE operation called the Operation Metro Surge.

Karen Koehler 2:09

Okay, so a pause.

Mo Hamoudi 2:11

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 2:12

Racial profiling.

Mo Hamoudi 2:13

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 2:14

Good thing? Bad thing.

Mo Hamoudi 2:16

That was a bad thing.

Karen Koehler 2:17

And why is that?

Mo Hamoudi 2:18

Because it is prohibited under the Equal Protection Clause.

Karen Koehler 2:21

And why are we doing it?

Mo Hamoudi 2:24

Um why are we doing it? I don't know. I mean, I mean, like, I mean, you want me to say the obvious?

Karen Koehler 2:32

I mean, uh excuse me, but is our tax money going to pay for ICE agents?

Mo Hamoudi 2:36

Yes.

Karen Koehler 2:37

Okay, so our money is funding this operation that is engaged in racial profiling.

Mo Hamoudi 2:44

Yeah. Yes. These are funded uh tax paid uh uh agents of the federal government that are racially profiling people to effectuate operation Metro Surge.

What Racial Profiling Looks Like

Karen Koehler 3:01

So racial profiling works like this. That person looks like they could be an illegal alien, because that's the language that they're gonna use. They look like they could be an illegal alien, and therefore we should go talk to them or stop them or search them or throw them in jail. That's how it works. Just by pure visual visual cues.

Mo Hamoudi 3:27

By visual. Or, in my case, which has happened before, you walk up and you hand your uh passport and they're smiling and they look down, they go, Muhammad, and then they go, oh. And I've seen that one. That one's a good one. Yeah. Where they go like, huh? And then they look down and they go, oh, and they go, huh? And then there's this moment, like Okay.

Karen Koehler 3:53

So we're talking about the mass racial profiling of in this case, people in Minnesota, and then and then so they racial profile, and then what what's the next is that it? Is that the end of the lawsuit?

Mo Hamoudi 4:07

No, that what they're asking, well what they're saying is that the core allegation is that there was statements made by the executive in 2025, like late 2025, that called Somali's quote unquote garbage.

Mike Todd 4:22

Wait, they that is by the executive, what do you mean? Go ahead and say it.

Karen Koehler 4:27

Would that be our elected the the the president that most of the people that voted for voted for who we also are paying with taxpayer money?

Mo Hamoudi 4:36

Sorry, that one? Yes.

Karen Koehler 4:38

Um wait, but but going back to so number one is racial profiling.

Mo Hamoudi 4:42

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 4:43

But number two is what? Uh I mean, because you can racial profile, like, right? Is that illegal if you're not it's not accompanied by action?

Mike Todd 4:53

No, I don't know if it is by federal law. Um it isn't it is in some states.

Karen Koehler 4:58

Well, what I'm saying is people can look at you, I mean, it's the whole prototypical thing if you're walking down the street late at night and there's someone else walking towards you who is of a different race and you move to the other side of the street because right? Well, but that's that could be anything.

Mike Todd 5:15

If somebody feels afraid when they're out at night, that doesn't necessarily mean it's racial profiling.

Claims: Fourth Amendment And Equal Protection

Karen Koehler 5:20

Okay, but number one is if you don't go to the other side of the street and you just make that judgment, that's one thing. If you go to the other side of the street, that's action. So what I'm saying is, doesn't there need to be action with the racial profiling for there to be an issue? And what is that action that we are looking at?

Mo Hamoudi 5:35

Okay, so the well, which is the claims, is there's an unreasonable seizure under the Fourth Amendment. That's one claim. There's violation of federal immigration arrest statute, that's another claim. Is that the USC one? Yeah, and then there is an equal protection claim, that's just racial discrimination. And then there's just an administration claim that this is just animus.

Karen Koehler 5:55

Okay, why do you do these involve do these people have warrants?

Mo Hamoudi 5:59

No, they don't have warrants.

Karen Koehler 6:01

And and what is a warrant?

Mo Hamoudi 6:02

A warrant is permission signed by a judge to take somebody into custody or to search somebody's property.

Karen Koehler 6:10

And do is there an exception that for ICE agents they do not need to have warrants?

Mo Hamoudi 6:16

There is well, they have there's a statute which allow allows so to be clear, there are administrative warrants sometimes. An administrative warrant is a warrant not signed by a judge, but signed by an administrative official, and ICE does have authority to execute administrative warrants uh to arrest people who they know are subject to a removal order, meaning they have to be removed from the country, but they're still here, they have authority under that statute to go find that person, put them into custody, and then remove them from the country.

Mike Todd 6:54

And they also have authority if like if they saw somebody walking down the street and they had reasonable suspicion that they were an immigrant, uh, you know, an illegal immigrant, they have the right to stop them and ask for identification.

Mo Hamoudi 7:10

That's right. And that was because the Supreme Court just said, hey, look, I mean, most of the undocumented people from this country are brown. Therefore, it follows that you can stop and ask brown people for their identification. And that kind of uh racism is tolerable. It's okay because they got to do their jobs. How else are they gonna do their jobs? So that was a court ruling that just came out where iCE agents were walking up to parking lots where people gather to look for day labor work and just mass stopping people.

Karen Koehler 7:54

Well, so the complaint also talked about but that's another case. That's not this the complaint also talked about um the targeting of Asians, so also there's some yellow in there too. Brown and yellow folk.

Mo Hamoudi 8:09

Oh yeah.

Karen Koehler 8:11

Especially when you look at you know, Seattle area, Pacific Northwest, huge amount of Asian, Southeast Asian.

Mike Todd 8:20

The thing I was gonna ask to get it back onto this case. Yeah. What about I mean, this was a U.S. citizen, so don't we have the right to privacy? Absolutely. Well and and then let me go once further. He identified himself and had paper or a license or some some sort of identification that he could identify himself as a U.S. citizen. Why did he get taken at all?

Mo Hamoudi 8:47

Okay, here you go. I'm gonna put my legal hat on real quick. You don't have a federal right to privacy. So the the Bill of Rights does not grant you privacy rights necessarily. Okay. Okay, what it gives you the right to is the right not to be seized without suspicion or cause. Which is what they did. Which is what they did. Now, what they're saying is that wait a minute, I don't know if you're a citizen. All I see is that you look like the type of people who are not citizens.

Mike Todd 9:15

Now, did that's their position. Did he have identical like the from what I understood, he had an identical.

ICE Authority And Administrative Warrants

Mo Hamoudi 9:19

Well, he was proclaiming to them. Like, who I don't carry my passport with me. I'm a citizen, but the only way you can establish I'm a citizen is by my passport. Yeah, but if he had a state ID, that's a stepping stone to proving that he's No, because Minnesota and Washington allow people who are not citizens to get driver's licenses because you want them to be licensed so you know uh so that you they can go through some vetting process to use your roads. So people have driver's licenses. You don't there's no citizenship card.

Mike Todd 9:53

No, I know. The only thing is is a passport. And nobody cares about it.

Mo Hamoudi 9:57

Company who carries their passport. And and so I so I it so then the ICE is saying, like, well, I don't know if the guy is a citizen, so I'm gonna stop him. And the guy says, Well, I'm a citizen. And then and then I says, Well, I'm gonna take you into custody for a couple of hours, you can prove it to me.

Karen Koehler 10:17

So so I was talking about it.

Mike Todd 10:19

So now so let me make this clear. Yeah. What you're telling me is right now the federal government has the right to take any individual off the street for any amount of time to prove that you're a citizen if they believe that you're not.

Mo Hamoudi 10:36

For any amount of time, I would say no. But I would say under the law.

Mike Todd 10:40

How long have some of those people been in custody?

Mo Hamoudi 10:43

I think that I think under the law they can keep them up to 24 hours to 48 hours before they have to produce them to a judge. Okay. Okay, so so I I okay.

Mike Todd 10:53

And they can do that with any person here without any reason, disrupt our lives and our privacy and our rights based entirely.

Mo Hamoudi 11:04

Based on my read of what they're doing.

Karen Koehler 11:06

Mike's about to blow his top.

Mo Hamoudi 11:07

I know. Not yet. I'm on the way there, but I'm not yet. But based on my read of what they're doing, that's the justification they're advancing. And no one, no one can do anything about it other than judges, for example. That's why ACLU's brought this class action.

Mike Todd 11:20

Yeah, ACL, you brought this in Minnesota because of the stuff that they're doing.

Mo Hamoudi 11:24

And they're not asking for money. They're not saying this is $1,000 or a million dollars. They're saying, judge, issue orders telling them to stop. I don't think they'll even follow the court's orders.

Mike Todd 11:36

No, I know.

Karen Koehler 11:36

Well, that's we haven't gotten all the way there. But so I was at my dad's um and mom's house over the weekend, and they had listened to our first podcast, and we're pointing out you know, all the errors that Mo made on the facts.

Mike Todd 11:52

We all made facts.

Citizenship, IDs, And Detention Windows

Karen Koehler 11:54

I read I was reading sequence of facts based on the way anyway. Um, you know, let me just say this. First of all, my dad is 92, my stepmom is 85. Um, my dad um survived Nazi Germany and immigrated when he was seven. My stepmom is black from the south. We were just talking, she was reading the Maurice White book I gave her, and she had was telling me about when she had to go pick cotton as a little kid. And uh so to say that they're upset about this is an understatement. Um my dad used the words Gestapo several times. Um they feel hunted, they feel like the country is just evolving, they feel hopeless, they they are having a hard time looking at the news, they are just absolutely devastated because you know, especially my dad, well, both of them, they lived through persecution and thought that that was in the rearview mirror. And here it is in full bloom. I I want to just take a public service announcement and tell people if you do not belong to the ACLU, why not? Um, sign up and support them because this is the most critical work for us. These these this they're I mean, when my dad said Gestapo, and I grew up having to watch every single World War II movie in the world, you know, with him, because you know, Survivor's Guilt. I've read every you know, that's what that when we went to the movie theater, it was either an art house movie or World War II. I saw every single one. All I can think of is what are we gonna, you know, are we gonna now start tattooing people? Are they gonna have to wear badges to say I'm a US citizen or I am not, I am an undocumented. Um, are we gonna, is that what's gonna have to happen? Because I guarantee you there are people that are US citizens that are Somalian of descent or Latino that are now having to carry their passports around because they're gonna be worried that they're gonna be stopped and asked to explain who they are to the satisfaction of this tyrant's monkey soldiers.

Mo Hamoudi 14:25

What somebody said to me was like when I was saying that this the these metropolitan cities are effectively operating like pseudo-police states. And and that these are police states where you have armed police roaming the streets and stopping people at random. And their pushback was hey look, you know, um uh you know, this is you know, you know, you're this is a you're making this political, and you're this is about politics. And this is where I really push back. And I was like, I was like, no, bollocks, I push back because the rights that they're violating defy politics.

Karen Koehler 15:07

We don't care who's in, we don't care who's in power that's doing this.

Mo Hamoudi 15:10

Because what's gonna stop the next guy who says, you know what? I want the list of every federal law enforcement agent who was involved in these things. And I'm now the popular guy, I am gonna go raid all their homes because they were violating the rights of citizens, and I'm gonna go ahead and violate their rights.

Karen Koehler 15:30

Well, I like I kind of like that.

Why Courts And ACLU Step In

Mo Hamoudi 15:32

No, no, no, no, no, no. This is the problem. The problem is that when you let, when you let, when you let law enforcement run around and not respect the Bill of Rights, you just you don't have to look too far in history to realize that people are targets of oppression, depending who the political majority is. And sometimes there's swings, man. And like, you know what? They're not occupying, law enforcement is not occupying like Bismarck, Dakota, or like uh Sioux City, Iowa. They're not occupying those little towns or or or or Beaumont, Texas. They're occupying uh left progressive towns like Minneapolis and Los Angeles, and it's just a matter of swinging politics, and then you go, well, the Bill of Rights don't matter. That's why the S ACLU is so important. Because they come in and say, put your political horseshit aside, and and you got to stand up for the Bill of Rights. It's you know, so so I'm just saying, be careful, be careful what you wish for, what you're allowing to happen.

Mike Todd 16:41

Yeah, but you end up in this situation when you be careful like that, because that's what the Democrats have done for years now. And where are we? Right here in a police state, being treated like people were in Germany after the war, in South America, in China. Yeah, there's plenty of examples that we can go out through history of an oppressive government being formed and then taking over and causing even more problems. I mean, I will I now I'm gonna get a lot of I'm gonna get a lot of stuff. I don't get a lot of. I mean, I'm gonna say, I don't you keep you keep trying to ride this line of saying we gotta be in the middle. Well, it doesn't work in the battle that you're in right now.

Mo Hamoudi 17:26

The fact of the matter is is like it we have we're we are a country of citizens and there are people who are on the other side of the uh view that that that say we think this is right, right?

Mike Todd 17:40

I understand that.

Mo Hamoudi 17:41

Okay, so at the end of the day, that's what most battles are are fought over. But there, but they're still our RP, this is well, yeah. I mean I mean to me it's that it's that if you start to say us versus them, because I'm gonna get I'm gonna get so much heat for this. Um but I'm gonna say it. Go ahead. Look.

Karen Koehler 18:00

You know why he keeps saying that? Because he's so much buddies with a bunch of conservative people.

Mo Hamoudi 18:04

No, it's not that I'm buddies with a bunch of conservative people, it's that uh I'm buddies with people who say, hey, during the pandemic, I I felt oppressed. Like I couldn't do anything because the government put so much restrictions on movement, on activity, and I was subjected to it, and people were like, well, that was necessary. And now we know a lot of the stuff that was a lot of the fear, a lot of the concerns were not necessarily as precise as was predicted.

Karen Koehler 18:38

Okay, we can't go into the pandemic. No, but it's staying in the world.

Mo Hamoudi 18:42

But I'm saying but what I'm saying is that there are there are I'm trying to speak. There are people who actually listen to this podcast who who also represent other viewpoints.

Karen Koehler 18:52

Well, here's the thing that I think is. Okay? Maybe I don't believe in that end, maybe you don't believe it in that end, maybe you don't believe it in that end, and maybe other people do, or maybe you do believe in that end. It's the means. The means is in direct conflict with our constitution. And what what you see here are people that are touting the Constitution on one hand and then completely re you know, just ignoring it on the other hand. Constantly, it it puts the judges in a tremendously difficult place because they're trying to uphold the law and the constitution, and then they're being basically ignored or overridden or threatened or and assaulted. So that's the repercussion.

Mike Todd 19:47

And not just threatened, they're threatened by the U.S. presidency.

Karen Koehler 19:51

Yeah.

Mike Todd 19:51

Often.

Personal Histories And Fear Of A Police State

Karen Koehler 19:52

It is the the rule of law. If you if what are they what are some of the quotes about civilization and the rule of law? When you are eroding the rule of law, which is happening here and has been happening at a significant pace. Of escalation, then the whole system is in danger. Then you result in chaos. Then you result in brute force winning. Then you result in true Gestapo.

Mike Todd 20:16

And in response to what you were saying about conservative views, all of those people, if they voted for Donald Trump once or twice, I will fault them for the first time as well. They are accepting that laws don't mean don't matter anymore. Because that government is doing that. That government is blatantly taking away our rights.

Karen Koehler 20:40

Okay, he's he's now gone over the edge. No, but I hear what Mike is saying.

Mo Hamoudi 20:47

What Mike is saying is you reap what you sow. You you know, you let your bet you know you you know.

Mike Todd 20:52

And you could argue, I mean, this has been perpetuated forever. You could go back to when I first was aware of politics and and say that it was whatever administration, whatever side was in control at that time, is the one at fault. But that's not what matters. At some point, the people that are causing the problem have to capitulate a little bit to the people who are being affected by the problem. Now, I believe so now I believe in elections.

Mo Hamoudi 21:17

So I think in November we're gonna we're gonna see. It'll be interesting. I think I believe in elections. I think elections will tell us what the people want. But I want to I I think it's they're gonna change.

Karen Koehler 21:28

Can I just say we this shouldn't be a political podcast? It's what it's not a political podcast. And can I just tell you I have no faith in the people at this point?

Mike Todd 21:36

Yeah, exactly.

Karen Koehler 21:37

I really don't. I have no faith in the people because because look at the society we live in and how information comes in.

Mike Todd 21:43

Yeah, we're controlled by a a massive massive information matrix.

Karen Koehler 21:48

Have you guys watched that show Plurribus on Apple?

Mike Todd 21:51

No.

Mo Hamoudi 21:52

Yes, I have.

Karen Koehler 21:53

The aliens come in and everybody they take over everybody everybody's soul and mind, and everybody's just a we and they just they're just they just do what what the collective wants. I mean, that's the problem. The collective, what is the basis of the collective? At least we have a concrete document. We have the constitution, we have laws that we have put into place, not currently, but we are not following them. And we're paying, we, the tax, all of us in this room, and everybody listening that pays taxes is funding this mechanism. We live in a country where we are authorizing these basically buffoon terrorist police officers or whatever to go in and harass and attack people based upon their skin color. I think that's gross.

Mo Hamoudi 22:47

I and I'm sorry both of you don't have that much faith. I am literally a child of the revolution. I am.

Karen Koehler 22:53

And look at where your country is.

Mo Hamoudi 22:55

I know.

Mike Todd 22:56

I know, but and our country is currently being led by an Islamophobe who would want you deported. I know that. I know that. I know that.

Karen Koehler 23:04

You can't even go see, you can't even go visit your family because you could probably not get back to the room.

Mo Hamoudi 23:08

What would happen if you went to Iran right now? Would you be able to get back? I would have problems in Iran, and I'd probably have problems coming back.

Karen Koehler 23:15

What's your progress been?

Mo Hamoudi 23:16

Well, I think there's been a let's give him a chance again. I know you guys are just we're just hammering you both on.

Karen Koehler 23:23

You were a child of war and there's still war.

Mo Hamoudi 23:27

Okay.

Karen Koehler 23:28

Because then you're how old? 70? Like, how old are you again?

Mo Hamoudi 23:32

70? I'm 70 years old.

Karen Koehler 23:34

Many decades.

Mo Hamoudi 23:35

I'm in my 40s. He's the youngest of us.

Karen Koehler 23:38

Are you on this side of 40?

Mo Hamoudi 23:40

I'm young 40s. Okay, all right. I'm just kidding. Okay, all I know is that I've grown up in war. Yeah. I've grown up in poverty. Yeah. And what I and and what what I what I have faith in is that like I just look at history and I go, health, lifespans have significantly improved. Poverty levels have risen over the decades. We have a safety net, even though it we're struggling to keep it and we're fighting for it. People live better lives today than they did decades ago. And and and I know that like what this administration is doing. Some people say not all people. But I know that, but I know that I came from poverty, and I know that like that the idea that like that like that that I can I was able to lift myself up it had had a great measure to do, not just with my own abilities, but the kindness and grace of my community that is incredibly diverse, of a and and of a diverse religious and political background. And people who give me and giving me little nudges, little lifts, you know.

Karen Koehler 24:52

Let me just let me let me just segue from the first time.

Mo Hamoudi 24:55

Can I just finish very quickly? But what I want to say is that what is happening right now is an attack on the rights that allowed a person like me to thrive and be an incredible contributing member of society. So, like, what what what is happening right now is that they don't understand that those rights are what make people come here and excel and make the country a better place. You make it a little bit better. That's my concern. It's not about politics, it's about like it really does provide an opportunity. And it's and and so when it gets into the political thing, I feel like I feel like I don't want to lose the people who like are, you know, I mean, some of my people I know. I agree, agree. I don't want to lose those people, you know, because they're supportive of these principles.

Principles Over Politics

Karen Koehler 25:47

Can I can I just say on the on the topic of hope and faith and goodness of human nature, which I actually believe in, despite all evidence to the contrary in what's going on here. Yesterday, the Seattle School District, um did you see what they did? They they c they um they basically called uh uh what's that uh uh hover in place uh keep inside the building because there was there was they they watch and they had seen some suspicious activity that ice was coming. You know, they they I mean how gross is that that ice goes to elementary schools to try to arrest parents who are gonna go pick up their kids or maybe arrest the kids themselves. So I can't remember the huddle in place or shelter in place. Shelter in place. They issued shelter in place orders in the Seattle School District. And so I just want to say that as appalled as I am by everything, I am so grateful that I live in Seattle. I am so grateful that we have a community here that that wants to protect uh people that come from other countries, many who are just fleeing for their lives and who we're we're supposed to provide a safe haven for. I do really respect and I am so sorry for Minnesota, Minneapolis, I mean, to be the you know, such a center of, I mean, first George Floyd, I mean, and now this. It's like I feel for that, for that community. I think our only hope is for communities to rise up and protect.

Mo Hamoudi 27:28

And that's what the ACLU is doing.

Karen Koehler 27:30

Yeah, I I really, really applaud them.

Mo Hamoudi 27:32

So so the ACLU's lawsuit is seeking to stop the behavior. What I'm interested to see is that the judge issue certifies the class, he's gonna issue a pr what's called a preliminary injunction. If reads and they because they've asked for immediate relief, he's gonna issue an order saying you cannot do X, Y, and Z. You have to do A, B, and C. And then what's going to happen is that they're gonna appeal that. And they're gonna appeal it to say, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are allowed under this, uh, under what we believe to be the executive's authority to behave this way.

Karen Koehler 28:07

Are they gonna can they remove it? They're gonna remove it.

Mo Hamoudi 28:09

No, it is in federal court. They're gonna appeal it to the Eighth Circuit. Okay. And then what happens? And then the Eighth Circuit will probably do an emergency oral argument and and uh decide whether to leave if the judge, if the district court judge issues an injunction, an injunction is is an order that directs and guides behavior, uh, they can say we want to leave that injunction in place, maintain the status quo, so that we can find out exactly what happened, whether rights were violated, and then you can ask for a more permanent injunction. The Eighth Circuit can say, no, we're gonna remove the stay. Because once the district judge issues a stay, what will happen is that then the ICE agents cannot act the way the lawsuit is saying they're not supposed to act without violating a federal court order. And if they uphold it, what happens? Uphold it, what do you mean?

Mike Todd 29:07

Uphold the Eighth Circuit says we agree with them. To leave to stop this. And what would the government do then? They'll take it up to the Supreme Court. Okay. Yeah. That's already happened a few times, right?

Mo Hamoudi 29:18

Yeah, they I mean the Los Angeles one, they lost. And it goes up, unfortunately, on these uh it may go up on a shadow docket, which is a docket that doesn't get a lot of visibility how how decisions are made, or it may ask them to come in and and fully argue it.

Mike Todd 29:36

And if that happens, do the ICE agents get to keep operating the way they are until a decision's made, or do they have to stop doing it until the decision's made?

Mo Hamoudi 29:44

That's always is is whether or not the judge's preliminary order is is stayed in place. Okay. Or it's vacated. Because sometimes they'll say you can still go ahead and proceed with your lawsuit, but ICE gets to do what it wants until you figure out the facts. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 30:00

All right. Well, let's ask another question, and then let's this has been a long one. You have one more question?

Mike Todd 30:08

One more question. One more question.

Karen Koehler 30:11

I don't well, um our hats are off to the ACLU, but go get 'em.

Mo Hamoudi 30:17

Yes. Yes, go get 'em. You got my support.

Karen Koehler 30:20

Mine too.