The Case Against Overthinking

Your mind hits rewind and suddenly you’re back in a meeting from last week, a mistake from ten years ago, or a conversation you wish you could redo. We dig into why rumination feels so convincing, how it differs from real reflection, and what it costs when the replay becomes a nonstop soundtrack of regret, second-guessing, and anxiety.

We talk through two very different coping styles. One of us can process hard events intensely for a short stretch and then “put it on a shelf,” which sounds simple until you realize it can be a trauma response and not a one-size-fits-all fix. Another one of us leans into rumination as a memory bank: a way to store emotional nuance, learn patterns, and predict what’s likely to happen next in people and situations. That can be useful in high-stress work and decision making, but it can also turn everything into threat scanning.

Along the way, we get real about mental health, ADHD-like fast thinking, and why rumination becomes unhealthy when it shows up as exhaustion, physical stress, or lost sleep. We also land on a surprisingly hopeful takeaway: different brains bring different strengths, and teams work better when we stop expecting one person to do every kind of thinking.

If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Is this processing or is this obsession?” you’ll feel seen here. Subscribe for more honest conversations, share this with someone who lives in their head, and leave a review with the one thought-loop you’re ready to break.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff's personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Featuring Mike Todd, producer, audio engineer, and the Disembodied Voice of Wisdom & Reason.

Produced by Mike Todd and Kassie Slugić.

New episodes every Wednesday.

The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast is where trial law meets real life. Trial stories, hard lessons, unexpected laughs, and honest conversations about life inside and outside the courtroom.

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Karen Koehler
https://karenkoehler.com
https://www.instagram.com/k3thevelvethammer/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-koehler-thevelvethammer/

Mo Hamoudi
https://www.instagram.com/mo.hamoudi/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mo-hamoudi-77a38733/

Stritmatter Law
https://www.stritmatter.com

Transcript

Cold Open And AI Search Rant

Karen Koehler 0:05

Your phone down.

Mo Hamoudi 0:06

Well, no, this will be a good hooking.

Karen Koehler 0:07

No.

Mo Hamoudi 0:08

No, no, this will be a good hooking.

Karen Koehler 0:09

We're not doing this.

Mo Hamoudi 0:09

No, but watch, watch. This will good hook. And then you can do just wait. Okay. Wait. No, no.

Mike Todd 0:15

Okay. Okay. I'm going to go to the house. We've been arguing about. Stop. Karen, what's what are you? What were you going to say?

Karen Koehler 0:20

We have been we have been trying to come up with the topic for 10 minutes because we're trying to be more mindful. Whereas we just shouldn't be mindful. We should just talk about what we want to talk about, like we always have. We're getting, you know, this new plan and this new group that's trying to help us. And they have this all this rigmarole they were supposed to follow.

Mo Hamoudi 0:38

So we're like, and then I'm doing a I'm doing a googly. I'm doing a googly search, and then I'm thinking it's just googly. And then Mike's like, no, it's AI. And then he comes in. I'm surprised.

Mike Todd 0:50

I'm surprised that you don't know right now that pretty much every search is in they're gonna have AI results. So my Google search is now AI. Well, it's a good it's not your search anymore. You're you're throwing it in their AI and they're giving the AI's results. Then you see the search results below.

Mo Hamoudi 1:08

Well, okay. All right, what's your topic? I guess my Google E is not is not a good one. I mean Google.

Karen Koehler 1:14

What did you just drop? Um earbuds. All right, well, this was a very organized way to get into our next topic topic of conversation. Which

What Rumination Really Means

Karen Koehler 1:25

is how to stop ruminating. That's it's a self-help topic.

Mo Hamoudi 1:35

It is.

Karen Koehler 1:36

Okay, I'm gonna tell you because I don't.

Mo Hamoudi 1:38

What, you don't ruminate? No, I'm gonna tell you how I do it. Oh, okay, tell us. You're saying this technique stop how you're able to.

Karen Koehler 1:44

Okay, first is we all know I'm really not an empathetic or person because I I am I I What is the opposite of not being empathetic, Garen? Well, you told me I'm not empathetic.

Mo Hamoudi 1:56

You told me you're not empathetic. You have no empathy.

Karen Koehler 2:00

You tell me I have none. Um well, so rumination. Yes, I believe is one of the biggest inhibitors of human existence. Well, for working in a group, for attending meetings, for just having peace and not being anxious, I think that unchecked rumination is very negative. I think that there are some positive aspects to being a ruminator, right? Some fine thinkers come out of that.

Mo Hamoudi 2:34

Contemplative, not necessarily ruminative.

Karen Koehler 2:37

So, yes, there's a difference between contemplative and ruminating. Ruminating is thinking of so it's like having a trial and then thinking every 15 minutes for that afterwards, and then every day, and never being able to get off the thought of if I had only done this, then this wouldn't have happened. It's very, it's a it's rumination when I define it in terms of negative, is is wanting to undo, wanting to replay, having regrets, not being able to turn it off.

Mo Hamoudi 3:21

What are you laughing at? Because this is like a ruse. This is an indirect attack on me. Okay, because you know, this is this is bollocks. This is horse poop. This is insane.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

This is like complete, this is a UR attack the way you set this up. Wait a minute. Okay, wait.

Karen Koehler 3:43

You haven't even let me finish yet. Okay, let's finish. So I am not talking about contemplating, I am not talking about you know, being rigorous in your analysis. I'm thinking about the involuntary act of replaying something that's negative over and over again until it becomes a symphony in your mind. Okay, sure, it is part of part of Mo. However, let me let me have my peace. Okay. Here's the issue about it, all right? A lot of people cannot control it. That would be ie you. Cannot can seem to control it. I'm digging it. I might dig it.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

You are going further and further down. No, it's just like it's not like you know, deep thinking. It's not philosophical. It's not, it's like impulsive and untethered. She's literally suggesting that I'm just a manie.

Karen Koehler 4:50

All right, well, I started it. Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 4:54

Okay, that's good.

Karen Koehler 4:56

What okay? Well, here's my strategy for it.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Okay, what's your strategy for me?

Karen Koehler 5:02

First of all, because I am

Karen’s Shelf Method For Letting Go

Karen Koehler 5:06

Oh, you're this is the best. Okay, because I am apparently not a deep enough personal of a thinker.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

This is precisely what I say to her when she criticizes me.

Karen Koehler 5:21

I'm slightly defective in that regard. No, but so I have a whole lot of it's okay.

Mike Todd 5:26

This is a work therapy session.

Karen Koehler 5:28

I have a whole lot of mechanisms that let me get through life the way I want it to go. I'm very self-directive in that regard. And one of them is that I don't ruminate hardly at all. I really just don't. I feel it, I will let it go, and then boom, I I um I cut it off and I stick it up on the shelf. Now, I know through therapy that that is my trauma response that I did. I am segregated. I have that's how I deal with a lot of stuff. And uh when you don't have control over something, then you have to come up with strategies, right? Well, my strategy where something cut it off, put it up on the shelf, and stick it over there. So as a result, when people ruminate, I'm not gonna say it drives me crazy, but I just keep saying you're ruminating. We'll tell them, yeah, I've heard that before. I've heard that 15 times before. You're ruminating. If you could just get past that, then maybe we can get down to business. So you've now heard my strategy for rumination and how to deal with it. Ignore it, put it up on the shelf, and all will be well. Okay. So we are now done.

Mike Todd 6:41

Mike helped me. Mike helped me. Let me ask you a couple questions, Karen. When you're talking about stuff like this, are you talking about like conversations that you're ruminating on or situations, or is it just the way that someone may have reacted to something?

Karen Koehler 6:58

Oh, all of the above. All of the above.

Mike Todd 7:00

Okay. So I would ask then this do you think about that kind of stuff before those situations happen? Or you're just or you're just reacting to stuff in the moment and then never re accessing it again.

Karen Koehler 7:14

Wait a minute. What what

When Processing Becomes Obsession

Karen Koehler 7:15

do you mean?

Mike Todd 7:16

Well, you just said that you don't ruminate about things. So you're not thinking about anything after it's happened. You're just automatically taking any situation, putting it in a box, and not thinking about it. So if that's the case, you're not ruminating on it ever again.

Karen Koehler 7:28

Not exactly. What I do is for example. So you do ruminate that. If I don't for a period of time and stop it. So for example, let's say I lose a rum.

Mike Todd 7:38

How is that any you're saying unchecked rumination is where you're saying it's a problem.

Karen Koehler 7:43

Correct.

unknown 7:43

Okay.

Karen Koehler 7:44

So for example, let's say I lose a trial. Like we lost Summer Taylor trial, right? Well, we we win it against the bad guy, who we all knew was gonna get it, but the the state, they did not rule against the state, which they should have. But they didn't. Okay. I'm gonna think about that and be upset about that intensely, typically. This is not the first time it's happened, right? Typically, when something bad happens, I will think about it and and just be upset about it three, four, maybe five days, right? And get it, let it all hang out. I will write about it, I will process it, I really will. I have learned, like, I'm not gonna pretend it didn't happen. I am gonna look at that.

Mike Todd 8:37

So you ruminate on it for a while, but then you put it away and you don't allow it. Then it goes up. You don't obsess about it, is what you're saying.

Karen Koehler 8:43

Correct. Then it then it goes up there. Yes, I do not obsess about it.

Mike Todd 8:47

So I'm gonna ask then, other people.

Karen Koehler 8:50

Yes.

Mike Todd 8:51

Would you say that other people tend to ruminate more than five to ten days? I'll say, I'll make it a little longer than you said, five to ten days. They could ruminate years. That's what you're saying. Okay. And you don't think that having that rumination of how I may have uh how someone, or I'll use myself, how I I may have reacted to something in the past, that it's negative if I continue to think about it and and maybe utilize it in other situations.

Karen Koehler 9:28

I'm not gonna judge you for it. I'm just gonna tell you for me.

Mike Todd 9:31

That you put it in a box and and leave it there.

Karen Koehler 9:33

For me, having to listen to it multiple times, it will irritate me.

Mike Todd 9:39

That's it. Okay, so you don't want you don't mind if he's doing it in his head. Oh, I'm sorry. It wasn't it. It could be he or she, it could be anybody.

Karen Koehler 9:44

It could be anybody. Yes. Yes. And it isn't just directed towards you, Mo. I mean, you're not the only ruminator on I had a I had a there was a person I I knew who who ruminated terribly and knew it and couldn't stop. And I said, Oh, well, just put a little um I'd say you try to do diversion therapy or whatever. Yeah, just put a rubber band around and just snap yourself every time you do it until you snap yourself out of it. Did it work?

Mike Todd 10:15

Did it work? No, of course not. Well, I was gonna say that that's the part of this is uh, you know, we could there's lots of different reasons for this, but part of this is uh mental health related because I do it. I I ruminate I'm I'm ruminating about right now. Yeah, I'm ruminating about stuff that happened 20 years ago just on purpose for this situation.

Karen Koehler 10:36

But because did I trigger that?

Mike Todd 10:38

No, no, I I brought it up purposefully

Mental Health And Social Cue Replays

Mike Todd 10:40

for this, but there's other stuff that's going on.

Karen Koehler 10:42

And I know people do that, right? I know that I know that people are wired differently and they cook differently. Yeah, and so I just can't help but but be affected by other people's ruminations, and I just kind of Some people can't some people have to remember that stuff for social cues type stuff.

Mike Todd 10:57

Like I have conversations in my head so that I can remember how to do it the right way if I did something wrong in the past. And that literally has to do with me not being able to tell what somebody was trying to do and kind of making a boneheaded comment that I wouldn't have made if I was paying attention or or noticed that kind of stuff, which I don't, so I have to remind myself.

Karen Koehler 11:20

I think that you're more normal. I think I'm more abnormal, truly. But I'm just telling you from my perspective, I want we want to talk about rumination, and then he started laughing. I can't imagine why.

Mike Todd 11:31

Well, let me ask, let me ask down, I'll flip this to Mo. Yeah, what do you think? How do you deal with rumination?

Mo Hamoudi 11:37

Well, it well there are well, first I gotta acknowledge there are some elite human beings. There are they're elite humans, super human? Superhuman who are special.

Karen Koehler 11:48

Super ruminated?

Mo Hamoudi 11:49

No, no, they're special. They're so disciplined in mind, body, and soul. They're able to The power of dominance within five days. Stop they control themselves, so clearly. Stop thought patterns and take emotions, okay? Take their spirit and soul and and compartmentalize. Compartmentalize into little amputated and put it at will, at will, into cubicles, right? Into cubicles, nice with little expiration labels on them and and a little note organized with a like a library with an index card where they can go in, and then in their homes, they have cards, actual cards. Okay, okay, that like right, and they and the card is like alphabetical, and it says, and it says love, the emotion love. And then they go pull out love, and then there's a list of check marks, and then they go, and then there's empathy. Oh, e, let's go to E. Pull out E empathy.

Mike Todd 12:53

Are you sure they have that draw?

Mo Hamoudi 12:55

I mean, Mike. And like these are elite human beings, superhuman powers. And I have I am actually in awe of

Rumination As Memory And Pattern Sense

Mo Hamoudi 13:06

you are not in awe. Okay.

Mike Todd 13:08

This is taking too long. Okay, so what's the question? What's the power of what what is what how does how does rumination work as a positive for you, Mo? It is a memory bank.

Mo Hamoudi 13:20

Yes, I agree. It is a memory bank. My memory of what I think, at least what I've observed, as being the most important events are like filed in my head. And the nuances, the emotional nuances of why things happen and what happened and when it happened are so important. I ruminate on those and they inform who I am in the future. And yeah, there is a freaking downside to it because you do ruminate. And when you get involved in like the emotional aspects of it, but I don't see life as like a compartment. I think like emotion fuels everything.

Karen Koehler 13:57

And I think like Do you feel that you ruminate about more positive things or about more negative things?

Mo Hamoudi 14:03

I think that I well, I think that I ruminate uh about consequences that leave you feeling not positively. Like I I and I look at the process of what happened and I go, like, what happened?

Karen Koehler 14:22

It's really interesting because there's people, like even just in this firm, who or especially for lawyers, right? They're the positive ruminators. Those are the ones that are gonna tell that great story about that great case and that great result at every social occasion, at for every new person they meet, because it's so wonderful, it's still vivid in their mind. You know, a lot of people complained about old lawyers telling war stories, but how can you complain about it when they were it? It was that was the thing that they were most joyous about, right? And then there are the ruminators that are the negative ruminators that despite wanting to ruminate about positive stuff, just tend to be fed by a lot more of the negative. So the negative energy is always kind of front and center, in my opinion, when you do that. It's you're constantly trying to bring yourself up because you're ruminating about stuff that's negative. From me, the superior human being's perspective.

Mo Hamoudi 15:17

But I never said you were the superior human being.

Karen Koehler 15:20

I know you didn't.

Mo Hamoudi 15:21

That's not what I was saying. I was describing these elite human beings.

Karen Koehler 15:26

Rumination is a weird subject.

Mo Hamoudi 15:28

It is.

Karen Koehler 15:29

I mean, there's positives, there's negatives.

Mo Hamoudi 15:32

I don't like rumination. I am a philosophical, philosophically contemplative person. It is rumination. I contemplate on life. And I contemplate on the life that I see, the life I experience, the life people experience around me, and I absorb all of it.

Karen Koehler 15:48

Mo, let's be honest and real here. You're a freaking ruminator.

Mo Hamoudi 15:55

I didn't I don't even think that's a word.

Karen Koehler 15:57

It is a word.

Mike Todd 15:58

Ruminator is a word. Mike, is that a word? I'm not gonna look it up because it is a word.

Karen Koehler 16:01

It's totally a word. How could it not be? Of course it is.

Mike Todd 16:04

Ruminator.

Karen Koehler 16:05

And you know how much I re To ruminate. I have looked it up to make sure that I use it right because I use it all the time in my mind. Like, oh, they're ruminating. You're

Predicting Plots And Staying Present

Karen Koehler 16:15

ruminating! They're ruminating again. And because I'm a person that consciously doesn't do that, it it it does, it does cause me some irritation. And and I and I without blame, like I don't want to that person, you know, I don't need to feel bad that you irritate me, but I will be honest and say you're ruminating.

Mo Hamoudi 16:38

I I will tell you this, and Kath, Kathy, my wife, will attest to this. She will say that I think about things a long time. You ruminate? I I you know reflect.

Karen Koehler 16:51

Why won't you say it?

Mo Hamoudi 16:53

Okay, I ruminate, but I have a superpower.

Karen Koehler 16:56

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 16:56

I am very good at predicting what's going to happen.

Karen Koehler 17:01

Through your ruminations?

Mo Hamoudi 17:02

Yes. Like I see situations and I'm very good. I go, Because you got a catalog. Yeah, I gotta I go, like, this is what's gonna likely happen. This is where I think this is going, and these are the risks, and this is what's gonna happen. And I'm fairly good. She'll say, Oh my, every time we have this situation, stuff comes up, we talk, and then she goes, You were absolutely right about that person, you're absolutely right about that situation. And she's like, How the hell do you do it? And I think maybe because I freaking room.

Mike Todd 17:32

No, it's because you remember all the things you ruminate about. I don't want to admit, but I just don't want to admit, Mike. But I'll tell you, I that's I do the same thing, and it drives Debbie crazy because we can't watch any TV shows without me knowing what's already happened. Oh, like movies, TV shows, I almost always can predict what's gonna happen. That's what that's what See, and and here I am because it's patterns, yeah, and it's easy to remember patterns when you're when you're remembering this kind of stuff. Yes.

Karen Koehler 18:03

But when I'm gonna watch a TV show, I want to suspend my disbelief.

Mike Todd 18:08

Yeah, I can't do it anymore.

Karen Koehler 18:10

I will always do it. I can do it. I will I you know I watch a lot of cartoons because of my grandkids and stuff. Like, yes, I know all of you know, after some years, you know, like this is this, this is this is but I will go in there like a child and just I am gonna suspend my disbelief. So by not ruminating, I am more in the present.

Mike Todd 18:29

I used to be able to do that, but it's I've got too much information now. That's when you've been ruined, just just happens, it just happens automatically now.

Mo Hamoudi 18:37

Yeah. I mean, I was told it's a trauma

Trauma Roots And The Exhaustion Cost

Mo Hamoudi 18:40

response for me.

Karen Koehler 18:42

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 18:42

So that you know, it was a tool I developed as a kid to predict my my environment.

Karen Koehler 18:48

How do you how how does someone who ruminates excessively? I mean, where is the line? How where is the line between healthy rumination and rumination that should be curbed?

Mike Todd 19:03

I'll tell you how. Well, at least how I know the earliest time that I started doing this stuff was I was just I'm disaster. So when I was a kid, when they diagnosed it, it was because I would throw away my homework all the time. And uh the uh the uh person that that I had tutor me to work on it, she said, Oh yeah, that's because you already know the answers, but you're too bored and you won't do it. And like that was the thing. She said, You think really fast, yeah. Like you already know a lot of stuff, but because you do that, everyone else is slower and you don't like to be slow. So as I've gotten older, that's the rumination part where I'm always thinking about stuff and always, you know, like oh, how did I react to that situation in the past or whatever, and and how to do it better than I did the time before? Um that kind of stuff I think is is how those uh behaviors start. You know, yeah. It was me dealing with something when I was a kid, and then that was the way that I reacted to it, and that you continue to do that. And maybe you can try and you know, through therapy and stuff, try to recognize it and maybe make it more positive, but I don't think I I don't think I would ever be able to do that. Is that tiring? Oh yeah, extremely tiring. Yeah, drives me nuts.

Karen Koehler 20:34

Can you tell me about that?

Mike Todd 20:35

Like well, I've always got conversations going in my head, you know, like you said, rumination. It's like, okay, yeah, this happened, it'll be running, running, running, running where everything's happening for days, weeks. Yeah, it's not I'm not obsessing about it only, though. Yeah, there could be multiples running at the same time. Oh, I could have 10 running at the same time. And then you gotta remember you're still having conversations with people and going through life that's supposed to be normal. I'm thinking and all that's still going in your head. Yeah, you know, but it depends on what's obsessing me.

Mo Hamoudi 21:08

I I think when you know it's not healthy for me

Sleep, Warning Signs, And Why Teams Help

Mo Hamoudi 21:10

when it has physical like consequences, like not sleeping. Like, because then what happens is that you know, sleep is so important. Without sleep, then you're not thinking straight. No, it's it's worse, it's worse, you know, and so so that's when I know it's something that like I need to do something about confronting whatever it is I'm ruminating with, and then like plan appropriately and respond to it.

Mike Todd 21:37

Yeah. What do I do? I use it as a superpower. Yeah, it is a superpower.

Karen Koehler 21:42

I mean, when I listen to you guys, I I feel you know, really like quite a shallow human being, but but I am forward thinking, like, and it's even though I say I put it up on a shelf, it is still the part of my fabric.

Mo Hamoudi 21:55

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 21:55

And I am I am a very intuitive person, for example. And a lot of people here have problem, not just here, but like in our sphere, will have problems working with me because I am so intuitive, it comes out of me, it's not prepared. But everything that I experience goes into this massive Karen. And that's how I that's how I function. And the older I get, right, the richer that experience is. But I don't have that little remember back when this happened because you didn't do this, and now I don't have, I don't, I am spared that.

Mike Todd 22:31

That's why you have other people working for you.

Karen Koehler 22:33

That's true.

unknown 22:35

That's true.

Mike Todd 22:36

That's right.

Karen Koehler 22:36

That's a way of I am a I am what is that called? I am a privileged person.

Mike Todd 22:40

Well, it's not that. It's that's why teams work better than individuals most of the time. Because teams can be built out of people that have individual specialties, yeah, and then use those all together as a team. Whereas one person trying to do all that stuff has to be, what did you say, Mo? Superhuman?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

All right, okay.