When you hear the words 'postpartum depression', what comes to mind?
In a heartfelt conversation with Megan Johnson, we immerse ourselves in the profound and complex world of maternal mental health.
Megan bravely shares the story of her sister Emily, whose life was tragically cut short by postpartum anxiety. Emily's legacy lives on through the Emily Effect foundation, a force that's challenging stigma and sparking significant change in how we perceive and support perinatal mood disorders.
Motherhood is a journey like no other, full of joy, love, and at times, immense hardship. As we navigate the labyrinth of emotions that come with being mothers, it's crucial that we create space to express our feelings and struggles. We reflect on the humorous, loving and dedicated mother Emily was, and explore how her courage continues to inspire Megan and countless others. This episode is a reminder that postpartum mood disorders are treatable, that seeking help is not a sign of weakness, but of strength and resilience.
To get resources for your own struggle or to help others by sharing your story, CLICK HERE and learn more about "The Emily Effect"
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
When you hear the words 'postpartum depression', what comes to mind?
In a heartfelt conversation with Megan Johnson, we immerse ourselves in the profound and complex world of maternal mental health.
Megan bravely shares the story of her sister Emily, whose life was tragically cut short by postpartum anxiety. Emily's legacy lives on through the Emily Effect foundation, a force that's challenging stigma and sparking significant change in how we perceive and support perinatal mood disorders.
Motherhood is a journey like no other, full of joy, love, and at times, immense hardship. As we navigate the labyrinth of emotions that come with being mothers, it's crucial that we create space to express our feelings and struggles. We reflect on the humorous, loving and dedicated mother Emily was, and explore how her courage continues to inspire Megan and countless others. This episode is a reminder that postpartum mood disorders are treatable, that seeking help is not a sign of weakness, but of strength and resilience.
To get resources for your own struggle or to help others by sharing your story, CLICK HERE and learn more about "The Emily Effect"
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
Hi, I'm Emily with the Limitless Female podcast. You are listening to episode 119,. You Are Not Alone, navigating postpartum depression with guests. Woman, welcome. If you're a mama who is feeling all the feels of motherhood the ups and downs of hormones and maybe even depression then you are in the right place. Limitless Female is your confident inner voice, helping you master your mood and create the epic life that calls you. My goal is to show you just how enough you are so you can show up limitless in your own life. Let's get started.
Speaker 1:Hello, sweet friends, I am so happy to be here with you guys today. I am so excited for you guys to hear this podcast. What a treat. It is a beautiful podcast, but I just wanna give a little trigger warning that we do talk a little bit about, I guess, losing a family member and we talk about postpartum depression, obviously, and it's a little bit on the heavier side. So just giving you guys a fair warning. But I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Megan Cook is a beautiful person who talks so elegantly and speaks so well about her sweet sister, emily, and Emily passed away and after that Megan created a foundation called the Emily Effect because of the effect that Emily had on other people and this foundation is meant to spread awareness as well as help people drop the shame around perinatal mood disorders so women who are getting postpartum depression, psychosis, anxiety, all those things and helping them understand more the tools they have to feel better, helping change the healthcare system. She's just really making an impact on tiny and very big levels, personal and systemic levels. So I'm really, really impressed with her and I just felt like the chills the whole conversation. It's just a beautiful conversation and I think you guys are really gonna love it. There is a really fun kind of call to action that you guys can do to help her foundation. So stay tuned till the end.
Speaker 1:Also, I have to mention that Megan and I went to travel study at Nauvoo. You know there's study abroad programs, while Nauvoo is not quite abroad, it's just in the US, right across the Missouri River, across from Keel Cook. But it was a really magnificent experience and you'll hear us talk about it. But it was so unique and it was just 100 of us, so you really get to know people in a different way. But also, people were very invested in themselves and what they're doing and we had a lot of homework and we had many, many church sites to go visit and yeah, it was just a really interesting experience. But that's where I met Megan. So, without further ado, here is my conversation about postpartum depression with Megan Cook, so excited to have you here. I told you that earlier. We met in Nauvoo and it was a really like. I think it was such a strange and beautiful experience for so many people because everybody went there for a different reason, did you? Was that your experience too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. You know, I feel like we met such a variety of people and we all had, I think, had similar and different experiences, which was awesome.
Speaker 1:Yes, totally yeah, I talked to some people and it's just like a completely unique experience. I had a roommate. I had some roommates who wanted to like really focus on themselves and like pull away from toxic relationships or just distractions in their lives. There were people in there who wanted to strengthen testimonies. There were really young guys who their parents wanted them to strengthen their testimonies before maybe they chose to go on a mission, and for me, mike now husband had just left on his mission and so I kind of just wanted to like get away from BYU and like submerse myself somewhere where I could just study the gospel and focus, and it really was. So I mean just the most. It's an experience I draw on all the time, where I know just enough to sound dumb, like I'll start a story and be like, but I don't remember the rest of the facts of that story. Same here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like I actually know a lot about Joseph Smith, but just this is all I can tell you right now. Yeah, let me go check my notes.
Speaker 2:So yeah, fact check.
Speaker 1:But I am so excited about the work you're doing and your foundation, the Emily Effect. I came upon it maybe a couple of years ago, I'm not sure. Tell me about, let's tell everybody about what you've been doing and how long it's been going about. Okay, what are the goals of this foundation that you've created?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the Emily Effect. It honors my sister, emily Cook-Dykes. She passed away in February of 2016. She experienced complications from having her fifth baby. She experienced some severe postpartum anxiety and this was her fifth baby. She'd experienced baby blues, kind of similar, like some ups and downs with other babies, but just never on this level her last time around, and so she experienced this anxiety that kind of took her and all of us off guard for about a year and again on February of 2016, she passed away.
Speaker 2:And so we as a family, soon after she passed away, felt very strongly that we needed to share her story with others. We knew that many other moms were suffering. We had had both of our ups and downs with getting her the right care and resources during that time and knew that we could use her story to also spark change in the world of maternal mental health and resources and care there. But we wanted to be very open about her story. When she passed away, it was very public and came out in the news and we just didn't want what people knew of her to be the day that she passed away in that story, because my favorite part in talking about Emily is her life and who she was and the person that she was, and her death just impacted so many people, especially because she was experiencing a mental health complication. And you look at Emily and her family and her life before that and you would never guess that she could experience something like that. So I think it hit home for a lot of people, because many out there are struggling, and so we wanted to share her story, to shed light on this topic, for people to know who she is, who she truly was, and to really just end the shame behind these mood disorders that moms can experience, both pregnancy and postpartum, and to improve resources and come together as a community.
Speaker 2:And so, a few months after she passed away, we did start that movement and we called it the Emily effect because of the effect that she had on people's lives, because of the person that she was. She was kind, she was genuine, she was one of those people that, when you met her, she did leave an impact on you and she affected you in a way that left you changed, and we also wanted to affect change in terms of, again, what we had been through and using her story to fuel change. And so since then, we've just been using the power of social media and events to raise awareness and bring women together. We've had other women share their stories, which we share, and then we've also been able to work with local providers and leaders to create change in the medical space, with care, and also just politically to create change in movement, to get more funding and create awareness that way too.
Speaker 2:So it's been cool to kind of see it happen on just really personal level with women, one-on-one reach out to us and who have been impacted by Emily's story, and also to say, hey, here's some policy changes and funding and here's what we're doing in hospitals and clinics now, to kind of just see it come full circle on all different levels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the beautiful part is how you've been able to reach people at such a personal level with the stories that you have, that that you've you people have written in, that you've curated into videos, and when I listen to what the work that you do, I get this like fire in me, like I literally feel like you know that fire, like you have to get to work. You got to do something I think people would describe as like passion, but like what you're doing is so important and it is just it's not talked about even a fraction of a little bit enough about how prominent it is to experience a mood disorder for women in any point of their life, but especially moms, and then, even more so, people who are pregnant or have just had a baby.
Speaker 1:And that should be. You know, I wish that that was a really huge part of our maybe our pre pregnancy education, or before we give birth or after we have the baby, that there was maybe a mental health care you know provider that was instantaneously connected to us, kind of like if you were to have like a lactation specialist, right, I wish that was like higher on the list and we can do that like we don't have to be at the effect of our, of our situations. I love that you're just like we're going to make change, we're going to do this just like phenomenal work, and I would love to hear some stories about you and your sister that just linger with you, just some sweet stories that kind of demonstrate who she was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate that because every time I share her story, it's really important to me to be able to I think people are so taken back by her story that we're initially sharing but to realize that she was this amazing person that lived a full, yes, beautiful life and it's so important for me to people, for people to understand who she truly was. So Emily is seven years older than me and growing up I just idolized her. It was so fun to you know, I actually have there's. I have three sisters, so Emily is the oldest of all of us. I had two other sisters in between us, but they were all closer in age and did things like drill team and softball. Emily did pageants. She was just really. She was just really involved.
Speaker 1:I saw her playing the piano. I mean I have never seen anybody play the piano like that. Yeah, incredible.
Speaker 2:She was amazing and she's one of those, like you know, she had all of these things going for her, but she was very genuine, she was very down to earth she was, she was kind that that anytime I talked to anybody about Emily, that's always their first response is she was kind, she was genuine, and she was even that way, you know, growing up, and so it was so fun for me to be able to.
Speaker 2:Just I was kind of like this little run that just tagged along and went to all the softball games and went to all the drill team competitions and pageants and I just got to watch her and that was really like, especially as an adult. Now I realize how impactful that was for me growing up, because I just got to see her lead by example, not just in terms of like accomplishing things, but just those important things like what it meant to work hard, how we treat people, how to like set goals and go after things. You know, those things that are just so, so important. And I feel like, as I grew up, that those things became a part of me and who I was and I wanted to be, because I just saw and that's what I knew, and so Emily was one of my, my best friends. I feel like we as sisters just always had that friendship and I actually got to live with her one of my first semesters at BYU.
Speaker 1:I was even though you're seven years apart. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was awesome. So you know she was married and had her kids and so I I got to live with them for a semester and that was really fun for me because I got to. You know her kids were little at that time and I got to see who she was as a mom and how she was very hands on, she got down on their level and she was very intentional and they were her world and I could. You know there's just so many, so many memories. But we know Emily had a great. She was.
Speaker 2:She had just like a fun sense of humor in that she could be like pretty serious and straight lace and stuff, but then she could just get really just silly and funny at times and we just had a lot of good laughs. And I again I it's so interesting and especially with her passing, just realizing how many little ways that she's impact me and things I do like that she did. And so it was really again special for me to see her not only as a kid growing up but then to see that transition into our adult lives as who she was as a wife and as a mom and again how that's impacted me and my motherhood and just various aspects of my life and so a lot of sweet memories. Growing up, we were a close family, did different things together and and just even as adults, just grateful for the friendship that we continued to have.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I have a sister who's four years older than me and that felt like a big gap. But when I was in eighth grade and she was maybe sixth grade and she was just starting high school we got to share room and it was a add on room like kind of like. We had reconstructed the house so it was like a bathroom for my parents bedroom and it was like part of their old bedroom. So we had like three doors and Lindsay's favorite thing was to roll and she'd stay up really late. She went to a college prep school so she'd be reading and studying and I'd be trying to sleep and she'd roll out of her bed and crawl out one door and crawl in the other or next to my bed and just like grab me and jump scare me like literally every night.
Speaker 1:And it went from me being like what's in her room and like what does she do? Like you know, just like it's like a treasure in the door shut and you can't go in not knowing anything about her, to, yes, being my best friend and so.
Speaker 1:I can absolutely relate and I'm going through a headache of name changes right now because when she was in high school and I was in sixth grade she changed the spelling of her name officially on her birth certificate so I changed spelling in my name but like on all my papers at school so I've like many, many drafts of my name out there. You might remember, in Navu everybody call me Emily or like Emmy. It's just like stuck. So like I know when people went to Navu with me because they'll call me Emmy and.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh, you must be from Navu anyways.
Speaker 2:But I totally.
Speaker 1:I mean, yes, same thing, like I idolized her. And yeah, emily just looks like this amazing, beautiful spirit and I. I totally agree that talking about the kind of person she was, is is so important, because I've had depression since I was 18 and I talk about it for living, I mean, and also just that's what I do day in and day out, right, but I don't feel like that's who I am. And even if that was who I am, it doesn't feel shameful to me. It just feels like I kind of. Now that I coach so many women who go through it, it does feel very common to me. So the shame has dissipated. But many women don't get that experience because we're so quiet about the way we feel generally. We don't walk up to people and say like how are you feeling today? You know we're like how are you? And we're not ready to hear a long response, you know.
Speaker 1:So, like sharing our feelings, you know, and having the space and the time to do that with others is not like super common, and so there is a lot of you know, whether it's intentional or not, it feels like feelings are a little bit too much for people and that as women, we are too much and we shouldn't take up to a space or time or energy, and so we kind of keep all the extra stuff to ourselves. Yeah, what's been your experience with I guess? What I'd like to ask is because I feel like depression looks different on everybody. Mm-hmm, could Emily still have like awesome days and awesome like? She looked like herself a lot when she was struggling, because I know for me, when I told people that I was on medication for depression, I mean, they laughed and they were like, yeah, right, that was joking and I thought, okay, I'll never bring that up again because I'm a bubbly person, right. So it looks different on anybody. What was it? What was your experience with that?
Speaker 2:So with Emily especially you know that year that she experienced the postpartum anxiety. She went through periods that were more severe to where you knew she was struggling and what was going on. I could tell it in my conversations with her. It was she wasn't functioning at the same level that she used to. You know all of those things. And then there were times where I was like, okay, we're like, we're good and she's out of us, oh, and we didn't really talk about it and it was really.
Speaker 2:It was because a lot of times it can be so cyclical too.
Speaker 2:I know it is for me, with my own depression anxiety so that's something to keep in mind too is that it can be cyclical, and so we just have to have that awareness of how it works for us.
Speaker 2:So it can get tricky, because I think oftentimes especially when it comes to things like postpartum mood disorders is we have this stereotype in our minds of what this looks like and what especially depression looks like. It looks like someone who can't get out of bed and who can function, or someone who wants to hurt their kids, you know, kind of these more extreme things, and what we are finding more and more is that they can be. You know, many of us, as women, are experiencing these symptoms, especially like on a clinical level, but we're still able to function. It's just that it's taking everything out of us to function, that it's most women who are struggling are actually able to function, and so it kind of goes against the stereotype that we've had in our minds, and that's why people often get overlooked, or why people often overlook themselves, because it's like, oh, I'm still doing the things, but not realizing, like how much it's costing them and how much it's taking out of them just to be able to function.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I watched your story about Emily I got emotional because I'm often thinking about other people and coaching Sorry I'm going to go but when I listened to her story I could relate so much with all the things you said that she was feeling and I think I forget that, like you know, it's cyclical. I still have depression. Right, I have really good tools, I have medication, I have a great support system. But, like, sometimes I think it's really good to recognize like I'm still going through something hard, like I am not at 100% functioning right, and the biggest roadblock I hear from people is they feel like I'm a stay at home mom, I have nothing else to do, so I should be able to do all of these things, like I should be able to get up, I should be able to shower, I should be able to, you know, help with all my kids stuff, because, like I'm a stay at home mom, and so then they don't prioritize all the things that might improve their mental health first.
Speaker 1:From an outpires side perspective, like we don't really adjust our circumstances for us, very often the impact and this is new for me too, because you know, we're always too busy and we don't think it matters that much to change Kind of like our life. It all feels like well, that's just normal, but it's new to me to like add a walk in the sunlight every day and like connect with someone every day, and like connect with God every day and like all the things that improve my mental health, which I know are important because mental health disorders are becoming more and more prevalent. And I can't help but think if, of course, it's related to our lifestyle too. You know just as well as you know chemically in our body, but also our lifestyle and what we expectations of us. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And if anyone out there is struggling with, well, I'm just a mom and like those things you were saying that I should be known, that's not that hard. Like motherhood is hard. I cannot think of another job or responsibility on the planet that is along with fatherhood, right, just parenthood in general, but especially. There's just some specifics and it's not to take away from all the roles that come with motherhood. There is no other role that is hard or demanding, taxing and that where the stakes aren't higher, right.
Speaker 2:So I don't think so true, we have to give more credit and validity to the value of motherhood and what it truly is, yeah, and as a society, and culturally right, and so, and just knowing to like, I think it's so important for women to understand, like when you, if we just were even to look at it from a biological perspective, looking at the process of what happens in our bodies neurologically, hormonally, chemically, all these things, and just literally physically in our bodies, there's no other time that a human experience is such drastic changes in such a short amount of time.
Speaker 2:And if we look at that alone, we're not even talking about, like, the social aspect and all the other adjustments and changes that come with motherhood. And it doesn't even mean that it's only valid just postpartum, that first year, right, like so many of those changes, even physically, can carry on into other aspects. But we, I think we have to step back and realize like this isn't just a thing that like, like that is in our head and that we're weak in it's like our bodies change, we're sleep deprived, you know, and it's also drastic, that we need to give some validity and step back and have some recognition of what we go through Pregnancy and postpartum and I think that that can shed light on what happens, so that we're not taking so much responsibility on ourselves and that we can see it from a perspective of? You know, we do the same thing with like medical disorders, right, that it's like someone's diabetic or someone has like. There's things that happen in our bodies physically that affect our functioning, and pregnancy and postpartum period is no exception.
Speaker 1:No, it isn't. And that was my next thought was when I, when I had my babies, I already had been diagnosed with depression, I mean for years, seven years. So for me it was like I already knew how to identify it. I knew what it looked like. I knew medications that worked for me that actually during my pregnancy I usually would go I would accidentally miss medication more and more and then realize like, oh, I don't like need it, like something about my hormones leveled out during pregnancy not that I wasn't like very emotional, but but I wasn't depressed. And then, after I had my babies, it probably would have been postpartum depression, except for the I knew I had like this whole treatment plan. Like the second I was done having my baby. It was like, especially by my like third and fourth baby, it was like I'm not going to bottle feed. I mean, sorry, breastfeed. I'm definitely going to bottle feed Because it was so challenging for me, it was so emotionally taxing and to get up in the middle of the night and be alone was so intense for me.
Speaker 1:It was like I knew exactly what to do to feel better so quickly.
Speaker 1:And so I can't imagine so many mothers go into having a baby and they have never experienced, you know, anxiety or depression, and now all of a sudden they have these emotions that they can't identify and have to kind of start that like whack a mole with medication, if that's the route they choose, finding a doctor.
Speaker 1:I've had many mothers I mean before I was doing coaching but many mothers that would come to me who were friends and they just be like because it's very open about my depression. I feel like that's just a gift Heavenly Father gave me, that I just and I had really neat people in my life who from the very beginning were like this isn't shameful, like this isn't, it's like a broken arm, let's just take care of it, let's figure out. But who came to me and would say I'm feeling this way and this way, like is like should I be? Could I feel better? Right, and so that's what your work is also doing. Such a good job at doing is normalizing it and also helping people identify. Did Emily identify it pretty soon, or did she like have to suffer or kind of confused for a little while.
Speaker 2:She identified it really quickly when she had Trey. There were some complications during his birth that we especially know, even more so now. That, I think, really triggered this level of anxiety that she had. But both she and her husband Eric recognized it. We could all see it in her. She struggled a lot with. Nursing was one thing. She had done it four times before and it wasn't working. This time she wasn't sleeping and she just became more fixated and anxious and just a much more intense level than it had been before. They were pretty quick to go in and talk to their OB and look at getting medication.
Speaker 2:I think the thing that just got tricky is that things would help but to a certain level or it would cycle, and when the cycle would return it was more intense than last time. Just playing whack-a-mole each time it would happen of like what do we do now and what's going to help? Because this time it's more intense, but then it's okay for a little bit and so I guess we're good. The best way to describe it is like this roller coaster you and I talked before about. I think it's just really important for people who are out there listening today that I wouldn't want anyone who hasn't had a baby yet or was concerned, who has been through something in a first pregnancy and now do I dare do it again. The reason we talk about it isn't to say this is something really scary that you should avoid only if you feel like you can have not at all that way.
Speaker 2:We're talking about this because knowledge and talking about it is empowering and then we're over here saying these disorders are treatable, there is support, there is help available.
Speaker 2:And we're talking about it because, even though it's the number one complication of childbirth and these issues are not normal but common when we arm ourselves with knowledge, we put ourselves in a position to, like you're saying, you knew about yourself and your history and what helps you, what doesn't, so that you don't have to be scared or miss out on this opportunity.
Speaker 2:Because we both know too and I know we can both say motherhood is wonderful and it's beautiful and all of the hard that I've gone through with it has certainly been worth it. And so we don't want anybody to miss out on that opportunity or fear because of what we're talking about, but to use this knowledge to empower them so that when it happens, if it does happen, you can recognize and get help. And it doesn't have to be this oh my gosh, I'm now playing this guessing game and I'm grasping for straws and I'm feeling shame and all of this, but that it's oh. I've heard this talked about before and, oh, I know that these types of things are usually helpful and I can talk to my partner, I can talk to my friend or whoever about it, because there isn't anything wrong with me. I'm just someone who needs support right now, and so I just want to like say that loud and that's why we're having this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, like a huge part of and sometimes it's an unpopular opinion, but a huge part of at least my experience with suppression is that there is a huge section of this unnecessary suffering that I create, my brain creates by offering me thoughts like that are out there everywhere, like that this is something that can never be treated, that I will always feel this way, thoughts that my brain offers me that feel so heavy and intense and that has minimized my, that has kept me so much more steady to understand that that, oh, I will come out of this like to look at past cycles and be like, oh, this will end right. And to know how to like process emotion and feel that emotion and describe it and sit with it, and not because there was so much more emotion put on top of special anxiety, being afraid it would come back or you know, and so we get to manage our mind until something might happen and we can worry about it then and then, when it comes, we can.
Speaker 1:If we've heard, conversations like this or the work that you're doing will help arm women to be like oh, I know what this is, there's nothing wrong with me there's. I have something it might be called depression or postpartum depression. I am fine, but this is hard, right, like I have an illness, I have a something's broken. Let's go fix it. Let's take it.
Speaker 2:There's reasons, like I explained before right. Hormones pattern change, all these things.
Speaker 1:Yep, yes, so to be able to identify, I mean because we can make our mood mean so many big things about us, like when I had a newborn, making it mean like I'm not connected to my baby. I'm not a good mom. But if we understand what it looks like, instead we might choose a thought like it's okay not to feel connected to my baby. There's a lot of things happening in my body. Let's give it time. Let's heal my mood. Let's work on it's okay to have somebody.
Speaker 1:My sister in law had offered to take my baby at night and feed her because I wasn't going to be breastfeeding and I, of course, I'm so connected and so worried about not being connected that I was like no, absolutely not. You know, and and I get it, I don't know that I would have changed my mind in that moment because you're just surging with hormones, but it is so. Also, it was so different Second, third, fourth babies to be like I'm not even going to try to breastfeed and that's totally okay, whereas my first baby it was like I'm explaining to the woman at the checkout why I'm buying formula and that it's okay to look on her face is like I don't care.
Speaker 1:She's like 16 or something, you know, and I'm like I tried so hard and I'm so tired and you know, and it wasn't until I I needed permission. You know it was a doctor that was like you know, you can just stop trying and you know, then you might have more sleep, you might be able to be on a different medication. That would be better for you. Like it's okay, like babies do really well in formula nowadays, it's going to be okay and that was really useful for me.
Speaker 1:And I think the point of this conversation too is like, when you can put a name to something, it just takes away all of that shame because you're not broken right. It's this separate thing from you. And I relate that to, like when you realized you were been on your period or your period starts and you're like, oh, that's why things have been really tough, and it kind of takes away some of that. I'm broken part and that's a lot of what. Even when you're in the thick of it and if it is chemical or your hormones have changed, there is this part of you that can kind of be intentional with your thoughts that like it's okay to experience darkness where you thought there'd be light For moments like for motherhood and different things like it's okay, but there is help. So I'm so glad you brought that up. That is super important. It's not. It's not the end of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's valid, you know, I think to like, validate in those feelings and have people who can, but also just to like it's like you're saying create space for things and pause and things and and and. That's just so important yeah create space for it.
Speaker 1:I love that, yeah, creates. I feel like feeding your kids cereal for dinner can be like creating space for that. That's a very practical application. You know I mean like not doing all the things perfectly. Is me creating space Like I'm gonna have to miss my daughter's game tonight because I just need a minute. That's me creating space for my feelings and my emotions right and putting myself first when it comes to a Appointments and you know all that jazz, because it can take a little bit of time sometimes.
Speaker 1:So, where do you see, at least in her journey? Did you see some room for improvements or things that maybe you're advocating for right now? And You've seen changes already in Utah. What were some of those changes that you were looking for, that, or at least that you've even seen?
Speaker 2:Well, I think number one to have you know you think about Pregnancy, and how often a woman's going in for her appointments, things like that, and how many different providers they sometimes have contact with.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's something that we should be talking about throughout that process, not just that. Your six week follow-up as a at the end oh, by the way, how are you feeling? Kind of a thing. Yes, so I've been, you know, advocated for more, for more screening and for it to be a more common topic of conversation During that process, which it is now many places now, whether it's, you know, obese or even Pediatricians after you know it's because they're seeing moms a lot following, you know, at the birth and we're seeing more providers Giving screenings to mom, which is huge because it's a it's kind of normalizes it number one and it's also creating a reason to have a conversation about it. Yeah, I, it's just been awesome to see that change right there yet. But Just, I think it's so important for women to understand that, like they, they need to advocate for themselves in this process, right, and I think one of our biggest frustrations was Sometimes what gets tricky when a mental health struggle is introduced into the picture is that you know you have all these different people who can help.
Speaker 2:You have, like, your medical doctor, but then there can be a therapist and then there's someone who's providing Medication and you can essentially be seeing different and working with different people, but what I would like to see more we're not quite there yet is better collaborative care amongst professionals, because everybody kind of brings something you know to the table and so what this might look like for a mom who needs to advocate for herself, as you know, if it's well, I'm doing medication, but I also feel like I just need to go and talk to somebody like can you refer me? Who are some of your referrals? Or if you know a mom's starting a medication, what's, what's the game plan for? Like, if I don't react well to these, what? What should we do? Or if I'm really struggling in a crisis comes up Like help me to know what to do in that situation and to ask to say, hey, can you you know? As to your therapist, can you talk to my, my doctor who's prescribing me medicine and get their feedback on what they think is happening and and those kind of things that we need to have better Collaborative care and people need to be able to speak up and if something doesn't feel right or you have Questions or something doesn't sit well with you, like like ask those questions and ask for that help and like they're there to Treat and to help you, and it's okay for you to ask for what you need, and so I think we've.
Speaker 2:I know I've seen some improvements as far as that goes.
Speaker 2:Like I know more OB offices are having in-house providers that specialize in mental health. That's become propagation, that are more train up. As you know, obs are more like they can't do all the things right and they can do some of it well in certain situations as far as mental health goes, but when it gets to a deeper level where we're a higher level of cares needed, then they need to like hand it off, and so I'm seeing some changes as far as that goes in terms of comprehensive care and collaboration. But we're not there yet and I think what will help with that is Women, families speaking up and it gets hard because I think maybe sometimes, as a mom, when you're going through this, maybe you don't know what you need or what questions to ask, and so it's important to have your loved ones there and support system they're to advocate for you as well, that if you know that there Can ask those kind of questions for you as well and you're communicating with them your needs.
Speaker 2:If, if it's harder for you to communicate with professionals, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I definitely have my head. Some come to lots appointments with me also because the bedside manner of of doctors isn't always maybe something that matches my. You know the way that I would communicate, so that's really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that bothered me a little bit was that I felt like I had to almost Apologize for being emotional and that bothered me. I felt like being emotional should be like a symptom when they should be really caring and gentle with it, kind of like you would be gentle with a broken arm because it's painful, but also validate it. Like I Felt like I was always like having to maintain Composure, even like when I'm doing great and my medications working. I had to maintain composure so that my doctor would understand that Things are going pretty well. Like I had to just be almost better than regular. Okay, I couldn't talk about like what was really having like, but this is kind of this is when it kind of flares up and I'm kind of struggling with just this area of my life in general. I felt like I couldn't do that because I I still felt like among, if you're with a general practitioner or maybe an OBGYN, that is not their specialty or they might not have been trained in and I totally agree like collaborative care and like a kind of a global approach To mental health and to health in general or, you know, perinatal health. I feel like that would really close the gaps on some of these things, because I've had a doctor.
Speaker 1:The reason I brought that up I had a doctor on a phone. I had a baby crying in the background and she wasn't available and I've heard this many times from people that they have a hard time getting in with certain doctors like six months to find a therapist or something like that and she was booked out for like six months and I was out of my medication and I was like, well, you know, what are we gonna do about that? Because I need a refill and my baby's crying in the background. But I'm you know, I'm not a new mom, I'm all right, my baby's crying, it's fine. And she kept saying like, ma'am, you need to calm down and get off the phone and calm your baby and Do you need a minute? And I'm like I actually don't need a minute, like my baby's. Fine, I got this. I would like to talk to you.
Speaker 1:So you know, it would be nice if people were well versed in mental health, even from, just like your perspective and my perspective, not even more medical training, so that they kind of understand, like, like you said, what it looks like, what people feel like, and or even just the simple screening process, what that is. And another experience I told you was that I had a thyroid condition, but that thyroid specialist did not look into my history of depression. So, like you know, another experience where my depression was worsened because of my thyroid, but that was not something that that particular specialist is focusing on. So, without that like kind of collaborative approach my doctor who referred me to the thyroid specialist, they weren't like talking and like or even talking to me, like while you're working on this, you're gonna need to do this To help you, or even just to tell me your depression will worsen because it's connected to your thyroid. I was not a conversation that I had.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's like I feel like those are two really powerful but kind of simpler steps, especially screening, just screening, yeah, for yeah, yeah, yeah, because I really just always got the question like how you feel in and I'm just like balling after, you know, baby, at the doctor's appointments and and all my appointments thereafter right. I would be like they like well, you have four kids, so that sounds about right, like life is pretty stressful. And so, because it's so common, I feel like sometimes health professionals feel like it's normal. Yes, you know I mean so then they're not treating it and so I feel like it's common and it's not normal. We don't have to feel that way. There are tools common. It doesn't have to take away that you're struggling and still need that support.
Speaker 2:Just because everybody experiences it on some level Doesn't mean that you, each individual person, doesn't need that support and the resources they need to help them through that time right, yeah, again advocating for yourself, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So, is there any, I guess. What was the? What do you think was the catalyst or Kind of like the linchpin, what was missing? That kind of ended, I guess, took Emily's life. That kind of propelled you guys into this amazing work that you're doing, and I know she is absolutely guiding, I'm sure. What was that for you guys? What was the catalyst to do the Emily fit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the catalyst for Emily, like that kind of, was the last straw, do you feel like?
Speaker 1:or what was hardest for her. Yeah, I mean you mentioned it was anxiety, maybe more than depression. Is that the case for her?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, and.
Speaker 1:I think just having you know the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. And I think, just having gone through those ups and downs for what felt it was a long time, but probably for what felt like an even longer time for her. And I think you know, having tried several things and you know I want to be careful to you know want to say that there were pockets of good help and things that were helpful, things and experiences that weren't so helpful, you know, experiences that were either dismissive or just wasn't connected with the people who were trained in what she really needed, specifically with maternal mental health. And I want to do, you know, I do want to say that we are getting more and more professionals who are trained so keep an eye out for that when you are, you know, when you are looking for someone.
Speaker 2:But I do feel like that, that lack of the collaborative care to have because, especially as it got worse, and then this person saying this thing and this, and that they kind of were all on the same page, kind of made it really tricky. And so I'm just kind of you know, to be honest, kind of thinking in my mind the specific answer to your question, but I feel like a combination of all of those things are and the anxiety just reaching a point to where it was just unbearable. And I feel like you know people listening, I I'm very open about her story and what happened. You know I I didn't necessarily share earlier exactly what happened and I want people to understand so that they don't have to wonder or feel like we're hiding something, because we're very, we're very open about it.
Speaker 2:But Emily, you know she went through those ups and downs for that that year and couple about a about a month before she passed away, it just finally reached a level where, for the first time, she was hospitalized, just meaning that the anxiety was unbearable and it wasn't, it wasn't getting any better, and that was a really hard step. I remember that she was, you know, of course, scared. She didn't want people to know. Again, that speaks to like how people feel about you know these, and that we sometimes don't want other people to know, and there's a tricky balance there between, I think, having privacy but also not feeling shame, right. And so she did spend 10 days in the hospital and that was, that was a tricky, I'll just say tricky experience not always a healing experience wasn't in this case, and I am yeah, and I'm careful about when I share that and how, because that's not the same for everybody.
Speaker 2:Sure, these are better, and it's always better to get there and be safe and be monitored and all of those things.
Speaker 2:But she, she came out of that experience, I think, having gotten some things that were helpful and also being I remember her saying like I do want to share my story, like people need to know about how, which is so ironic. But a couple weeks later she just just started struggling again and felt that intense anxiety and at this point we had just we weren't sure what to do again, because we'd already been to the hospital, we'd already done all these other things, and so she, she spent some time, just kind of needed to get away and take a break. And so she went with my parents and they were gonna go on a trip and she was riding in the car with my dad to go back in and get her things. But she'd just been really, really struggling that day, the anxiety just being so intense, just being like I can't do this anymore, all those kind of thoughts. And while they were riding in the car on the freeway she had a panic attack and I was like to explain to people what that means.
Speaker 2:If you haven't had a panic attack and I believe that this was kind of like a panic attack, but to just kind of a whole, you know, there can even be levels of panic attacks where it was also just kind of a sometimes call it like a break, like there's a phrase that psychotic break, and that I feel like this is what happened in that she when you have a panic attack, it's your brain telling you that you're not safe, that you have to go into fight or flight mode, that you have to flee, that you're not safe and you're not in that part of your brain that has logic and reason and can make decisions, but you're going on. Pure emotion, pure instinct to and the. The emotion is so overwhelming and flooding that you're not making decisions and you're not necessarily in your conscious part of your brain. And so this is what she experienced and, because she was in this state, she tried to get out of the car as my dad was driving and he was trying to pull over as she was getting out. He got over and then she was able to to get out of the car and she was in this disoriented panic state and just began running up the freeway and, unfortunately, at that time is when a semi-trick came along and was unable to avoid hitting her.
Speaker 2:And again, I think, I think it's just so important to to share that and to share that she was struggling at a level where she was not sure if she could go on anymore and do this anymore.
Speaker 2:Because I just I know that there's people out there who have felt this way and who are probably feeling this way right now, and I don't want Emily's I never would want sharing Emily's story to be disheartening or discouraging to anybody.
Speaker 2:The point of sharing her story is to share that you are not alone and that there's multiple reasons why you're experiencing this, and the main point is that it's not your fault and that you're not beyond help and that there is, there is good help out there, and that that's especially you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2:Like Emily, I know she has wanted us to share her story in hopes that it would help somebody to not experience the same, the same thing that she's experienced, and I have definitely felt her in this work and have known from many people that they have felt of her help as well, and so I don't even remember now what the specific question was, but all of that to say like that's that's where the anxiety got and my things got to the level that they did, but again, knowing that because of what she went through, that's why that was the catalyst to us sharing her stories because we knew that she wasn't, and still isn't, alone, and many moms out there need to hear this story so that they can they can get help and that wasn't the end of her story, because she just continues and continues to like bless people's lives, yeah, in such a beautiful way.
Speaker 1:And and yeah, thank you for leading us with that that there's hope out there and that it's not your fault, like, yes, if we can get rid of some of that shame and allow people to just be, like, aware, and and thank you for sharing that part of the story because it just shows how real it is. It's not just something happening in your mind that you can just overcome by yourself, or that you even should like that you need to, that it's something that is that simple. It's like you said, it's complicated and it takes time and you need space, and making space for that might be finding a medication that works or getting support from your family or, like you said, going to the hospital. That creates space for you to heal, where, if we don't have those measures, we don't have that space and time to heal. And so thank you for leaving us with that that there's hope and there's nothing wrong with you. That right, powerful message. Well, thank you, emily so much. And if you guys want to learn more about the work, that I'm sorry you're not.
Speaker 1:Emily. Okay, thank you so much for coming on here and tell people where they can learn more about the Emily effect yes, you can go to our website, the Emily effect org.
Speaker 2:I'll just say really quickly that you know, one important thing that has happened as a result of a sharing Emily story is many other moms are now sharing their stories and we felt it was important to give them a place to do that.
Speaker 2:We have what are called letters of light on our website and we actually have partnered with a video production company called story to, where we are creating these beautiful video stories of other moms and their stories and you can. There's such a great thing to share, to create conversation and connection with other people, because we need to be asking new moms and we're all you know, we're all going to be connected to somebody who's going to struggle at somewhere on the spectrum at some point and so ask those questions, be open about your own struggles, share these beautiful stories with them, just get the conversation going. We're also on Instagram and Facebook and we just really just are aiming to be a resource. We, you know I am a therapist, so I aim to just share information and create connection among women, so that's where you can follow us, so that you can not only continue to educate yourself, but please share with others and connect them to us as well thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, friends, shame hides in the darkness, so by sharing your story, it will help release some of that shame too. And if you're not there yet, go watch these stories so you can feel supported and understood. And then, yeah, look at all those amazing resources that I saw on your website. Just fantastic, fantastic resources. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you have questions about anything you've learned here on the podcast or want help with something going on in your own life, hop on a free coaching call with me. In just 30 minutes you'll have real tools for your unique situation. Go to limitlessfemalecoachingcom. Forward slash work with me, or you can find a link in the show notes below. Spots are limited, so grab one before you miss it.