Did you know that your brain is the biggest sex organ?
I didn't say it, Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife did…this week… on
the LIMITLESS FEMALE PODCAST!
The truth is, the way you think has a greater impact on your sexual desire
than anything else you or your spouse may (or may not) do,
leading up to sex.
Here's another fun fact… Sex does not always = intimacy.
You probably have experienced this if you are the lower desire
partner in your relationship.
There isn't a lot of room for authenticity or connection when
we are making the grocery list in our head as we kiss our
sweetheart!
So yeah, your thoughts play a huge role when it comes to
getting in the mood, and using sex to actually grow
connection.
I know I'm not alone when I say, desire has not always been
my strong suit. And feeling desirable is also really challenging
after a long day of taking care of everyone else's needs.
So I know you are going to LOOOOOOVE today's brand
new podcast with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife.
I asked her all the good stuff! Go check it out!
.
.
.
.
Check out Jennifer's Room For Two Podcast HERE
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
Did you know that your brain is the biggest sex organ?
I didn't say it, Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife did…this week… on
the LIMITLESS FEMALE PODCAST!
The truth is, the way you think has a greater impact on your sexual desire
than anything else you or your spouse may (or may not) do,
leading up to sex.
Here's another fun fact… Sex does not always = intimacy.
You probably have experienced this if you are the lower desire
partner in your relationship.
There isn't a lot of room for authenticity or connection when
we are making the grocery list in our head as we kiss our
sweetheart!
So yeah, your thoughts play a huge role when it comes to
getting in the mood, and using sex to actually grow
connection.
I know I'm not alone when I say, desire has not always been
my strong suit. And feeling desirable is also really challenging
after a long day of taking care of everyone else's needs.
So I know you are going to LOOOOOOVE today's brand
new podcast with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife.
I asked her all the good stuff! Go check it out!
.
.
.
.
Check out Jennifer's Room For Two Podcast HERE
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
Hi, I'm Emily with the Limitless Female podcast. You are listening to episode 122, Keeping the Pilot Light Burning Amidst the day-to-day of marriage and depression With Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife Woman. Welcome. If you're a mama who is feeling all the feels of motherhood the ups and downs of hormones and maybe even depression then you are in the right place. Limitless Female is your confident inner voice, helping you master your mood and create the epic life that calls you. My goal is to show you just how enough you are so you can show up limitless in your own life. Let's get started. What's up, my limitless people?
Speaker 1:I'm so excited to be speaking with you today and, oh my gosh, so pumped that you guys get to hear from Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife. This weekend I heard her referred to as JFF. I was like who they're like Jennifer Finlayson-Fife? Duh, I didn't know that we call her JFF, but I asked her and she told me that I could call her Jennifer. But Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is seriously such a sweetheart, Even though she knows so much more on this subject than I do. She treated me like a very intelligent human being. I don't know why I always expect somebody to be like you, dummy, but so far not too many people have said that. So it's going well. But you guys are going to love this conversation.
Speaker 1:I asked her the questions that I think you guys would want to ask her, and my main purpose on having her on was how do we not just go on dates with our spouse but date our spouse on a daily basis? How do we integrate that romance but further than that right Like our sexuality, our intimacy into our day-to-day of our lives, while balancing kind of that very ritualistic habitualness of the day-to-day, All the things that we have to stay on top of the co-parenting? And then you throw in you know, just the day-to-day of our up and down moods and if we have depression, that too. How do we keep that romance alive when maybe our libido is lower than our spouse's and that could be for either your husband or the wife, right? How do we keep that love life alive when sometimes you have to turn down the other person? Or when should we say you know what? I'm game, I'm game, let's be together, let's connect.
Speaker 1:And how do we make actual sexual intercourse intimate? Because it's not always intimate, it doesn't always create connection. And my favorite thing she said in here is that your brain is your biggest sex organ and I could not agree more. You can be physically present and completely miss the intimacy and connection part, or you cannot expect the night to end in sex and still feel completely connected, and that's what we spend time on in shift doing. We coach all the time on topics that have to do with intimacy, navigating the communication part of it, how to bring your whole self to that experience instead of just being a reactive person in this intimate experience. But how to actually bring yourself to the experience, and Dr Jennifer does such a good job at teaching what that means and what sexuality really means.
Speaker 1:Because that was my first question Can you define sexuality for us, Because I hear it all the time, but I want to know what does it mean for me to own my sexuality? What does that even mean? So you guys are going to love this episode. I can't wait to hear it and while I have, you go ahead and hit subscribe so you guys don't miss episodes. As you can tell, just as recent it's been a little bit hit or miss and a little bit erratic as far as when I've been posting I've had some IT issues, but I have some just really consistent amazing podcasts coming out and amazing podcast guests I don't want you guys to miss, and some announcements that you won't want to miss either. That will be on the podcast. So make sure you hit that subscribe button and, if you love it, if you guys are enjoying it and you have not yet left a review, please go ahead and do that below. I would so appreciate it. All right, you guys.
Speaker 1:Here is my conversation with Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife. I'm so excited we're here today with Dr Finlayson-Fife and you are a LDS relationship and sexuality coach with a PhD in counseling and psychology. Wow, Like that's a good list of credentials. It's long and I am part of your room for two community and I am in love. Every day I send my husband another episode and like we can get on the same page. Listen to this one on the way home. It's so good.
Speaker 1:And I write these like really good nuggets on my mirror. You know I'm just like like wherever we can squeeze it in, but I just love the way that you work with couples. I love the way you approach sexuality, which I feel like that portion is not really addressed as often.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:As it probably needs to be. I honestly would love it if you would just define sexuality for us, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's kind of one of the hardest things for couples, I think, to address, and so it gets easier to talk about the day-to-day conflicts. But yes. Well, the way I think about sexuality is that we just are sexual beings, you know, and we often want to relate to sexuality like it's this contained part of our lives. It's something that's, you know, for belongs to the bedroom at night. You know, we don't think of ourselves as embodied sexual beings in the day-to-day very much.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of reasons like like well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, just to think of our, of attraction and embodiment and sexual desire as just normal, regular parts of being alive, wow. And so I think we're afraid of sexuality because it reveals a lot about us. I think we have to, in a way, be pretty deeply at peace with ourselves to really be at peace with sexuality, and a lot of us just don't have that, and so we are trying to kind of contain it. You know, even if someone's obsessed with sex, it's often in this kind of I don't know, like a buffer, like a height from something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not really integrated into their lives. It's more something they do in secret or they do compulsively or you know, or they just you know they're not really at peace. So I think it's kind of a challenge to accept this part of ourselves and it's a challenge to then create something intimate and honest with a partner, because we're already many of us in a somewhat ambivalent relationship to sexuality in the first place. But, to kind of answer your question a little bit better, I think of eros as a really powerful way to live joyfully, and sexuality is one important expression of eros and eros, and so I think that it's learning how to express this sort of alive, passionate, soulful part of ourselves, our sexuality being one expression of that I love that you said at peace with yourself, like being alone with yourself, knowing yourself well, I was even talking to my daughter the other day about like being in your body rather than thinking about your body, and she's like kids don't do that.
Speaker 1:We don't get in our body and feel where something is, and I said by no, that's. The thing is like we don't really spend a lot of quiet time where we would actually have the opportunity to feel what it feels like to be us.
Speaker 1:Yes that's what we perceive. We should think about ourselves, and a lot of the time I spend coaching women it is on what? On pointing out that what they think about themselves is really the problem. But it feels like a problem with their marriage and a problem with their kids, and because they're not comfortable and confident and I could see that being magnified Absolutely. Intimacy with your spouse yes. That's the gross version of that 100%.
Speaker 2:So I mean, while we often do a kind of mind body split in the way we think about, you know, there's me and then there's my body that in reality we are so much our bodies, and then how we think our bodies come across often then deeply shapes how we feel about ourselves.
Speaker 2:And we live in a culture that's quite rejecting of the body, or I should say that has very narrow standards of what constitutes beauty and how women should look, for example. And so girls are often at peace in their bodies when they're seven and eight years old, but then, as they go towards adolescence, start tracking all these ideas about how they should look, what makes them attractive, what makes them the right kind of female, and so they learn this kind of self-objectification. So I think that what you're saying to your daughter is very important and on point, and I'm sure she's exactly right that nobody's doing that but this knowing how to anchor into your own experience and your own feelings, and because the body is what Sakrati's called an instrument of perception, and the body is telling us a lot about ourselves, about our emotions, about who we are, and so to disconnect from that important source of information is a real loss and really does undermine our confidence. To go back to this sense of feeling at peace in our own skin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's no. There's no layers, there's nothing to hide behind when it comes to intimacy with our spouse. One of the things that you say when you were coaching a couple was our spouse has more impact on our sense of self than anything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Can you explain that?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean what I mean by that and that's maybe too big of a statement to say. I know that they're always the most important, but what I would say as a spouse is a very important self-reference point. So the people that you really let matter to you a spouse, a parent, a sibling what they think about you really, really matters, because they know you well and because you've built a life.
Speaker 1:You feel like they know you best.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you've built a life with them. So it's one thing if some stranger thinks you drive badly or whatever. I mean nobody likes that, but it's like it doesn't really affect your life, where if you have a partner who thinks ill things of you, that can be much harder to manage because they're so core to your life and they know you so well.
Speaker 1:How do we reconcile that If our spouse has an opinion of us maybe not necessarily mean, but opinion of us that doesn't make us feel more confident?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Or that we don't like to believe about ourselves. How do we reconcile that with this person that we believe knows us, maybe better than we know ourselves? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, what I'm going to say is easier said than done, but I think what it really is is to think about okay, what is my spouse saying and what do I think about that? Do I agree with them or don't I agree with them? And if I don't agree with them, is it because I just don't want to deal with what they see and what they know? And if I'm being honest with myself, I know it's true. Or am I partnered with someone who is looking at me through a critical lens, who's invested in critique or disparagement, who doesn't have my best interest at heart, and even though it's painful that they're not a trustworthy source around this, because they have their own challenge or their own issue? So it's not an easy process because you're trying to figure out. Am I lying to myself, Right?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When I can't see it the same way, or is there something that my spouse is doing that's not fair or kind or decent? And so that's a process to figure out which is which.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. One of the things I wrote in my mirror was is anything they're saying about me true? Is any part of it true? Exactly, I love that and seek to understand.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I don't need to feel all like you said what do you think about it? What do you make me mean about you? But maybe just even before that figuring out, do you want to? Even I've heard people say like I don't accept that that phrase. Someone says something to them it's like I'm not going to take that on and it's like is any part of that part that you're like I'm not even going to accept that, but that part right?
Speaker 1:there that's true. Let me talk to you about that part, right, exactly. I'm going to talk about some of the things. When you said like a trusted source, it made me think about like clothes and like style. My husband will tell me like those shoes are way too pointy. And I am absolutely not offended because I'm like you don't know style, like I know style, yeah, yeah, right, it's like, are they a trusted source, like of that particular thing? Right? Do they understand what it's like? Maybe to keep a house clean 24 seven?
Speaker 1:or right it's okay if they don't understand, maybe yes, exactly, and so you know, right, exactly so I go.
Speaker 2:Or even if they have a different point of view, you're okay with it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I love. So that's something that I talk about in one of my online courses. That is a Terry real idea. Terry real is a therapist who was written a lot on marriage, but he talks about this. I likes this idea of you know, looking for what is true in what's being said, and so you know, even if ABC and D are completely, potently false, but there is truth in E, then you talk about E and you deal with E and the opposite.
Speaker 1:We look for what's wrong and we never address the part.
Speaker 2:they said that, absolutely I mean it's such a setup when a spouse is like. A lot of times, when you're upset at your spouse or someone, you exaggerate things because you're trying to. You know you never unload the dishwasher and so then that's easy for the spouse to be like what do you mean? I just unload the dishwasher yesterday, but it's getting away from the larger issue that I don't feel like we're sharing in household tasks equally.
Speaker 2:And so it's like very much an invitation, when we speak in that way, for our spouse to just fight on the points that are exaggerated. But when you're really fighting fair, as the listener, you're looking for what is the point of this and what's actually true and what do you know is true, because it can be so tempting, rather than dealing with where you're not being fair, for example, instead to talk about how your spouse is an exaggerator and doesn't appreciate you and doesn't see all the good you do, rather than what you maybe know way, way down inside, as you're taking advantage in some way. So it's you know, if you're really going to be happy in marriage, you have to have a lot of courage to go in and deal with what's true, even when you want to defend your ego, you want to defend your view of yourself, and when you can bring that honest humility to those conversations, those are the couples that move their marriage forward.
Speaker 1:I never knew what it meant to fight fair. Thank you for explaining that. That really resonates for me and makes sense that when you're, instead of pointing out the way they said it or the exaggeration, like getting to the point or the heart of what they're saying and responding to that point, which is challenging.
Speaker 1:But, like I love that you explained that. And that brings me to one of the things that I really wanted you to share with our listeners is because we're like the CEO of our homes together. We're like these really, you know, really co-workers, and the stakes are really high. Right, we have these children that we're trying to raise and we want them to be good humans in the world, and we don't want to get it wrong and we have no manual, so we're kind of making up together and guessing what's right or wrong. So how do you you talked about, like, sexuality is not something we compartmentalize, and I imagine that has something to do with being able to work together. And you've used the phrase like keep the pilot light burning.
Speaker 2:How do you?
Speaker 1:do that in a marriage when you're constantly having to talk, schedules etc.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I do think it has to do with this idea of sexuality, right, rather than the compartmental notion of sexuality, and we often, again, want to compartmentalize. It's something that scares us. Okay, it's something we do on Tuesday and Friday nights, you know we don't live like sexual beings in the day to day.
Speaker 2:And so, even though marriages the great majority of marriages have people listening here that are married start out with a romantic attraction as the primary driver of the union, that it is sexual in its foundational design, but then we lose that, we don't keep that alive, we don't keep it a romance and we let the jobs of day to day life and raising kids become more important than this is foundationally a romance. This is foundationally. I choose you and you choose me, and so, yes, we're doing these things that are not particularly sexy paying bills and getting up in the middle of the night with kids and so on. That's it. We're not going to forget who we are because we're a couple, first and foremost, when all these kids are gone and the bills are paid. That's who we are. We chose to be together as a partnership.
Speaker 2:Now, some people don't get married to be in a partnership. They get married to have children. They get married to fulfill roles. They're not that interested in a romance, ultimately, and they're playing it out in the way that they prioritize kids and job and duties because they're trying to get away from the intimacy of an actual partnership and actual romance. Of course people get to make their choices, but a lot of times we say we want the romance but then we act to keep ourselves sort of underexposed and undereinvested in that romance.
Speaker 2:It's not an easy 10 tips to just shift it back. I don't know if I can give you that per se, but it's recognizing. How do I actually make room for this, for me to feel like the romance of the two of us, to feel the sexuality of the two of us, to take time for it, to belong to my own womanhood, my own personhood, in the face of being a mother? What are the things that allow me to feel attractive, allow me to feel like a woman, right, first, partner. Second, a mother, third, perhaps. Those are all important roles, but a lot of times what we do is we make mother first and then we sort of see the partnership as a threat to our autonomy, because we feel overwhelmed with the duties and therefore the marriage becomes sort of this impediment to your happiness and really interferes with creating something that's a source of strength while you parent, while you live your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think if we look at what we do on the daily and we take that and make our priorities from that, we would see a really weird priority list.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know and for some people it might actually be a priority list that they're like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, like you said, motherhood first, yes, but when we look at what it takes to be a happy mom or a happy woman first or those things are foundational. Like you said, your marriage, that's where you're the most raw, that's where you probably build the most confidence, and character is if you can do that with your spouse.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And when my me and my husband were first married, I mean, actually every time I had a child he'd be like you love me more than the kids, right? I'm like, why do you have me say this? But I read baby wise and it told me that, like, the security of the parents is the most important thing for my kids to see. So it was always like I always really took pride in them coming to talk to me and being like I'm finishing my conversation with daddy. It wasn't like drop everything for the kids. Yes, Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's helped me. Just hearing that once was like, okay, this is okay to do and yeah, you know, it's even more than okay.
Speaker 2:Even more than okay, because a lot of times we try to make it as like oh, is the kids going to get priority? Well, the way you actually give kids priority is by showing them how to be a woman who's at peace in her own skin, a woman who's definitely partnered with their dad and loves them. You can do all three to parent well, and I think what we sometimes do and, of course, it's true, like when you have young children. I was not going out on dates, I was just trying to stay alive. It's an intensive period, there's so much going on, but you can still like hold, like how to say it? Like I knew my husband cared about what I was doing. I knew it mattered to him that I was in the thick of it and that his job was, in fact, easier. I knew when he came home at the end of the day, he cared how my day had been. So it's like it doesn't require dates, it's more like are we partners? Do you love me?
Speaker 1:Are we?
Speaker 2:friends. That's really what's critical in it. And of course, dates are wonderful. I have nothing against that. Of course Time alone is wonderful. But it's like, how are you orienting to these relationships, including, and very importantly, the relationship to yourself and all of that? We often lose ourselves in mothering and again, it's intensive work and I understand that you sacrifice things when kids are small. But am. I sort of throwing my sense of self away into something where I'm kind of losing my anchor into me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's kind of like the act of dating instead of going on a date.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We had like this little weird plastic baby that we would hide like in the flower or like under a shirt we would fold Right and it was like when you found it was kind of exciting, like oh, he put this there.
Speaker 2:Right, and then we would go hide it Right.
Speaker 1:So for a couple of years we were pretty good at that, yeah, but like I feel like that's kind of like a dating thing, right. They're like on your mind, you know. Yeah, absolutely. It just kind of keeps them present. It's kind of like in the background of our busy life. Me and him are our besties, right, we're there. I know like I can tell him the whole list of things I've done when he gets home, because it doesn't look like I did anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like just sit for a second, he's like wow, good job because it doesn't look clean anymore. You know, yeah, exactly, but you trust that ultimate friendship there and that's really the key, yeah.
Speaker 1:Can you explain what it means to belong or have, let's see, belong to womanhood and I want to kind of transition that into how to keep? Like you know, we want to keep the passion alive when we've been married for 20 years and we're co-parenting. So what about when there's it can be mental health, but also just like struggles when one spouse is feeling down or feeling maybe like their skills aren't being used or they're not effective in the family in their role. Like how do you keep the passion and that friendship alive in that space and does that?
Speaker 2:have to be a little bit better. So how do we belong to ourselves?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do we belong to ourselves, and is that important when another spouse is feeling a certain way? Uh-huh, maybe they're not related. Let me just see if.
Speaker 2:I can. I just want to make sure I really have your question. So are you saying how do you belong to your sense of self when there's stresses and depression or difficult things going on, or how do you belong to feeling attractive and appealing when there's stresses or your spouse is struggling? I'm not sure if I quite follow.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think, maybe because I don't understand. Can you explain what it means to belong to womanhood?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think what that is is like do I feel good about myself, do I feel good about who I am in the world? Can I look in the mirror and think I like me? And, yes, I feel desirable as a person? That's really, really important. Like Esther Perrell says, no woman wants a man to make love to her if she wouldn't also make love to herself, and what she means by that is that women are very. Their sexual template is often about feeling desirable, and they have to see and believe themselves as a desirable being. Now, I don't mean in some narrow version of femininity or beauty or anything like that, but like, I know I'm a good human, I know I'm a good person, I do good in the world, I like who I am.
Speaker 1:We desire to be around ourselves. We desire to be around ourselves. I think it's kind of good.
Speaker 2:Exactly, we desire to be around ourselves and others desire to be around us, because we're sort of going back to this aerosenergy.
Speaker 2:That aerosenergy is emanating from us, that life force, that sense of happiness in the world, and it doesn't mean we think we're perfect or that we don't have discouragement and all those things, but there is a kind of ease with yourself and it shows in the way you live right and it shows to your kids and it shows to your partner.
Speaker 2:I remember my spouse saying to me once you know that because I was I had just gotten married I used to do long distance running and my knees were giving me trouble and so I couldn't and I worried that I was going to put on weight and I just kind of fretting about it because I was now in a sexual relationship and he just said you can put on 40 pounds, I would still be perfectly attracted to you. He said the only thing that would be hard for me is if you started to dislike yourself. That would be hard to be attracted to. And I think that was really like a mind shift for me. That that's really what it's about is are you at peace and are you joyful? That's attractive.
Speaker 2:And so I think you know, a lot of times when we're going around trying to be what everyone else wants, we feel frazzled, we feel never enough, we feel that everybody's desires are kind of sucking the life out of us and so that aerosenergy that belonging to ourselves is kind of dissipating. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So many of my listeners are on medication for depression or maybe on any medication. Maybe this is a common thing, but their libido is really low and I feel like that's not something that's talked about enough that it's pretty common, and among women isn't it more common that they are the lower desire partner in a marriage Not always, yeah, I think it is statistically slightly more true.
Speaker 2:I mean it's interesting because the research tends to focus that not that women don't have sexual feeling as much as men do is that women are pickier about where they're sexual and that means that they're lower desire because they care more about the emotional context of being sexual, but it's not that they aren't responsive sexually as much as men are and it just isn't translating into I want to be sexual. So women are pickier and probably lower desire is a group in general because of that. But yes, depression, even without medication, works against sexual desire and then often medication SSRIs will suppress sexual desire. So I think that I'm trying to remember well butron. There is a class of antidepressant, anti-anxieties that have less effect on libido, but those definitely can, and it's a tricky balance. I don't know always if someone has mild depression and they don't need antidepressants, like there's some research that shows people that are exercising every day. It's similar to a low dose of an antidepressant in terms of its effect.
Speaker 2:Of course, for sexual desire, that's going to be a much better trade-off. To do the exercising every day because you're in your body, you're feeling good. But if you really struggle with depression and that's not an option, I mean I think it's recognizing that may have downward effect, but what does enliven us? Two things I would say about it is if we're taking antidepressants and it's allowing us to go out and live our lives and to do difficult things that otherwise we would feel too crippled by anxiety or fear or self-doubt to do, then when we're out living and engaging in the world, that's again claiming that energy. It's claiming that energy that creates desire within us. And so if your antidepressant's allowing you to live and to thrive, it may be exactly the right trade-off.
Speaker 1:I feel like that when we're living our lives, it's easier for us to believe we're desirable, exactly. I did this, I did that.
Speaker 2:I'm productive yeah and exactly if it's bringing well-being and feeling good to ourselves. And taking the antidepressant is an act of strength that you're saying. I care about myself and my life and I don't want to be depressed and therefore, even though it's maybe not what might be my first choice if I had an alternative, it's the right thing to do so I can work with this. It's like putting yourself in an agentic position and that leads to.
Speaker 2:The second idea is that I had menopause a few years ago and it totally scared me, like I thought, oh my gosh, I'm not going to have sexual desire anymore because I don't know. I just had all this fear. And then it became sort of self-fulfilling Because I was anxious about it and I think, maybe feeling some sense of grief around hitting menopause and all that, like my body just seemed less responsive, and then it was making my fear about that being true go up and therefore my responsiveness go down. It's once I finally you know my husband said to me we're going to be fine, no matter what happens. That is like we'll be okay, don't worry about it, and it just allowed me to stop worrying about it and then it all was there for me to work with again. Now. It's not the same as when I was 25 or whatever, you know, when I was younger, but it's like if we give it too much weight, it can actually weigh us down more Do?
Speaker 1:you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean it can make it feel like, oh, I have no possibility because I'm on antidepressants rather than. Okay, yeah, this is going to put some damper, but I, as an alive, able woman who wants to have good sexuality in her life, I can work with myself. I can work with my body. I can do what I need to do, think the thoughts I need to think, do the things I need to do. That encourage this part of me. So, if you desire it and you desire to cultivate it, just I think it's helpful to not think of it as a deterministic reality, even if it has an impact.
Speaker 1:And like. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you're saying is that chemicals are a part of it, like our physiology, with libido, and then maybe because of a medication we're taking, but there's a huge part of desire that comes from the way we think about what might create pressure, or might create excitement or desire.
Speaker 2:Exactly, the mind is the biggest sex organ, right? And so how we're thinking is everything. And, generally speaking, when we think in terms of obligation or failure, or I'm a disappointment because I'm on antidepressants and therefore I can't feel desire, that's all going to undermine arousal, right? We feel arousal when we feel free, when we feel good about ourselves, when we're in this expansive energy, and so it has to be about I choose this, I want a good sexual relationship. Yes, I'm on antidepressants but, yes, I had a busy day with the kids, but I want to go and be in this playful energy with my partner. But if we turn it into oh, I have to, because it's what a good wife does, and it's been five days I mean forget it. I'm not going to be through the act of sex, but it's not a place of freedom and ease and replenishment that I think and it's not going to increase desirability.
Speaker 1:You're not going to finish and be like I'm so desirable and then want to do it again next time right, Right, exactly Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when I first got married, that was when I had just started medication and it was all new to me and also marriage was new to me and having a sexual relationship was new to me. And I remember explaining to my spouse like I could never have sex with you again and be fine, because like I just want to be with you, like this won't be. You know, I just didn't have any loveato, it was all like a choice. Always I felt like, and that was hurtful. I mean, he was. That was the first time he had ever heard that right, and to him he was like that's would never cross my mind, right, I guess. How do we show love? I might not receive it, but how do we show love to our spouse when we're not interested, because that's a hard pill to swallow, when you're always the you know, advanced, or and the other person's yeah, yeah, uninterested.
Speaker 2:One way that I think about it is maybe maybe two variables here that matter in this is that I think couples generally get way more focused on whether or not intercourse happens and whether or not there's sort of an alive energy and a sense of playfulness and affection that's in the marriage. That sometimes might just be, you know, affection at touch on one night and other nights. You know intercourse right. That there's a kind of how to say it. There's just an energy that's in the marriage that is about desire and respect and cherishing the marriage itself. So that's just a part of the interactions, that energy. When a marriage is going well, what happens when it gets down to like, are we going to do it? So the second idea is that if you're going to be able to create that kind of marriage, you have to tolerate if, as the higher-desire person, that it may not always go where you want it to go, meaning there's a flexibility to be in response to where you can both be together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like maybe the end goal, like I think we're so conditioned, maybe by like media and everything. Like I think when I was first married it was like I had heard on Meet the Smiths. That movie, like you know, that one time a week was just like pitiful. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and so I think that stuck with me like, oh, no like or compared to when you're first married, like you said, when that desire is so high and you know, then you're always comparing it to that.
Speaker 1:But what if the goal of intimacy it's not like intercourse is the act of being intimate with your spouse? But there's so many different ways to do it Right, at least the pressure off.
Speaker 2:I quote once and I I know it was an older woman and I don't remember who she was, but she said something like my husband and I made love every single night of our marriage. Sometimes we had intercourse. So what she was saying is that there was that energy of love and affection and attraction and cherishing that was in the marriage regularly, and sometimes that was full sexuality, other times less, but it was all the same quality and that requires, you know, a collaborative alliance in a couple.
Speaker 2:And what I mean by that is that couples often get into sort of managing their own egos in a marriage. The lower desire they're managing their egos and they're like I don't want to, like how I'm so tired to kiss them and touching me all day and I don't want to do it again. And I mean they have a point Like there's nothing erotic about the way it's happening between them. And the higher desire person is like yeah, but like do you desire me? I want to be close to you. Do you love me? Like I don't feel.
Speaker 1:And so they're trying to manage their ego, Right, they don't want the other to make them feel a certain way.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:And so the low desire person wants to feel good by not having sex.
Speaker 2:The high desire person wants to feel good by having it, and so what's often happening is that managing the self is being given to the other person as a job managing the spouse's sense of self and so it kind of gets into a bit of a power struggle, like how do I make him feel loved without having to do this because I don't want to, right, and he's maybe thinking the higher desire person thinking oh, how do I have the sex I want without imposing on this person or feeling like I'm taking something they don't want to give?
Speaker 2:Right? And so we kind of get into this struggle because we're not working with ourselves enough as the higher desire person to calm down more and to be more settled and not make your spouse take away your disturbance, your anxiety, your discomfort about yourself. Now, that doesn't mean you can't be clear about wanting to have sex or anything like that, but you're not sort of trying to get your spouse to manage your feelings about you. And the lower desire person may be like I don't feel any desire, my medication or my menopause or whatever. Like you know, it's not coming over me. But on the other hand, I love this person and it matters to me that they want to because they matter to me.
Speaker 1:I'm playing that in your decision, not just taking your heels in.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly Like, and so I can choose it because I love this person and I think I can get there with them, like I think we can be together and enjoy each other. So it's still coming from your agentic self, like, from a sense of your choosing, you living up to the person you want to be in your marriage, and it takes it out of this power struggle.
Speaker 1:I think I heard you say something to the effect of it's like I don't love that restaurant, but I'll go try the food.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, Sometimes it can just be like you're not making me, but I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1:I wanna be with you, Right.
Speaker 2:I've told this story before and listeners are probably like I've heard this one, but I'll, just because I think it's a good non-sexual example.
Speaker 2:but like when I first got married and in our family growing up, we always said what we loved about the person whose birthday it was. It was just our family tradition. So two months after we got married, it was my birthday, we drove up to my parents' house and so my husband's like wait, what we're going around to say you know, like publicly, right in front of your parent, my husband's introverted and he comes from a family of sort of cerebral introverts.
Speaker 2:Okay, so like that is not their style at all. And so my response to that, because it felt like wait, do you love me or not love me?
Speaker 1:Like why can't you say what you love about me Right why is that hard? And so I'm handling like what's your problem?
Speaker 2:Cause that's the way I'm trying to put my punctured self back together. And you know, I did that for a few years and then I started to kind of grow up and think like, I know this person loves me, I can tell he loves me in all these ways and stop trying to make him into what reinforces me, like, just grow up and care about him as he is. Well, I don't know, it was maybe six years into the marriage or something, and his parents were in town and it was my birthday and I had zero idea of anybody saying what they loved about me, because it was his family and it wasn't their style and so I had zero expectation. I forgot about it.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about it, but I remember the dinner ended and my husband said hey, mom and dad, everybody, can we come in and let's say what we love about Jennifer? And it was so touching for me because that's not his thing, it's not his parents' thing either. He was doing it 100% because he knew that it mattered to me, and so he's. It's not coming out of his desire, right, it's coming out of I love her, I value her, and so we. You know, I wasn't, we weren't in the power struggle, but it was a choice and it meant a lot to me because I knew it was absolutely just an act of loving me.
Speaker 2:And that meant a lot to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you said I know he loves me, you can take that and then choose to think differently about the decisions he makes, because you know that's true. Instead of guessing, and one of the things that really helped me in my marriage to change my the way that I reacted to things like that, was that love feels the same, whether I'm feeling it for him or I feel it because I think he loves me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if that makes sense so when I love him for who he authentically is. Like he's so cute, he's too shy to get the waiter, like I'll do it for him. Like he's so cute and shy, that feels like love and that feels the same as if I think, oh my gosh, he loves me so much. Look at that, it's just an emotion I get to feel in my body, and where it comes from is kind of irrelevant. And so if it's, if I already know that he loves me, I'm not just making up some thought about somebody who treats me terrible. Right, then I could just go ahead and love him and feel all those feelings.
Speaker 2:Yes, Exactly and how we choose to love.
Speaker 2:So you know the story of a couple that I worked with where he initiated sex.
Speaker 2:She turned him down and his normal response to that would be to like kind of pout and be annoyed and be and kind of in the question in his head of what's the matter with my wife? Well, he was working with me around this and I was kind of challenging on how he would do that as a way to manage his own difficulty with feelings, his feelings, his difficulty accepting himself, but also his difficulty with actually loving Right. He wanted to be loved, but that's very different than whether or not he was actually loving his wife, right, who was too tired or who didn't want to. And so this was in his mind. And so when she turned down, he was like pushing himself and thinking, okay, like it's my job to soothe myself, she gets to make a decision, I'm not going to sit here and judge her. And then he just decided I'm just going to touch her just out of love for her. Like, I understand sex is not going to happen, but I'm just, I just want to love her.
Speaker 2:So he stepped into loving rather than am I loved?
Speaker 2:And as he was touching her with this kind of acknowledgement and appreciation and valuing of her, like she as a woman who struggled to orgasm, always feeling the kind of pressure from him, like her body just started responding because she could feel that he wasn't actually trying to manipulate her to get something to happen. He was just touching her because he loves her and touching her as a man who loves her. And she found herself responding to it and saying I want more of this in our sexual relationship. Because she was low desire, in part because she wasn't feeling loved in the way that they had sex, even though he was telling himself he was doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause it kind of puts us in the driver's seat. Like you said, when he decided I'm going to love her even though it sounds like it's about that she's going to feel all of it he gets to be in control, and now he gets to feel love.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, it's not about making her feel loved, we talk in that way a lot. I'm not. It's about loving he is loving her and she could feel it. But, like you're saying, he's the one in control, he's the one who's choosing, he's the one who's acting and she can feel what he's creating and doing in that action.
Speaker 1:I love that and I kind of speak to this like last kind of section that I wanted to ask you about, which was not just responding to him. Oh, I think the woman you were coaching said this. She said I wasn't just responding to him but bringing my whole self to the experience that was new oh yeah. And I thought that's so beautiful, because often we almost come like as an outsider to the sexual experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like we're responding to maybe what they need or what we think we should want. But how do you do that better, like bring your whole self to the experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that's what intimate sex is. Now a lot of us who've grown up in religious cultures or just different ideas about how to earn love can approach it. Men and women can both do this. But like who should I be so that you find me acceptable? And in the intimacy of sex we can do that. It's supposedly the most intimate thing we can do. But we're often trying to mask and manage what shows up because we are insecure. And to let this other important other, really really know us, really see us, really experience us is daunting, but that's also where all that life energy is. That's where the arous energy is, is in daring to be more vulnerable, be more exposed in sex and so it is a decision.
Speaker 1:In a practical sense, then would that look like maybe not presenting yourself in a way you think he might like, but presenting yourself in a way that you like? Yes, exactly, and then maybe telling them what you like Like. Is that because some practical ways that you can bring ourselves to it?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's great because you are showing up right. So I think lingerie for women is primarily about the woman tapping into her desirability, her showing up, feeling sexy and bringing herself to that we sort of say we wanna fulfill men's needs and everything. But how boring.
Speaker 2:If you're just like they're trying to be what you think they want, whatever, as opposed to showing up as a woman who loves this man and wants to be sexual with him and is comfortable with her desirability and her sexuality, that's attractive. That's the energetic energy right Of something intimate and playful. So, yeah, showing up, daring to show your sexual desire, daring to show your sexiness, right. So many of us, as women, have been taught not to do that that we shouldn't think of ourselves that way.
Speaker 2:In some of my art of desire retreats. So it's a women's self and sexual development course. At the retreat thought we'll dance, we'll have an instructor come and teach us to move our bodies in these ways that we were always taught not to move them, throwing a hip circle right. Just body rolls and things like that and at first everybody's like so uncomfortable and kind of laughing nervously, and then by the end there's like so much joy.
Speaker 1:Oh, I need to be there. Everybody's just so full of life. It's the best.
Speaker 2:Because it's like a freedom to actually claim your beauty and your sexuality and your playfulness and to not apologize for how sexy we are. I love that.
Speaker 1:I think that sex happened way more often, or even like intimacy, when I started thinking like I can just like have him anytime I want. Like instead of thinking he wants me all the time. I remember thinking like he's doing the dishes and thinking like if I go over there I could just like take him now if I want, Like he loves me, you know, and like thinking it more, like maybe I would if I was dating somebody and intimate outside of marriage, that idea of like, just want.
Speaker 1:That's how I imagine it, because I was always married when I had a sexual relationship, and so I think it's hard to remember what it was like, that desirability, when we were dating.
Speaker 2:No, it's a great point, because what we do when we get married is we kind of turn people into just parts of the furniture. You know, we just turn and we reduce our humanity, reduce the sexuality of our partner and then, as you say like, turn it into obligation that we then resent as opposed to no. I have a choice and this sexy man I can take anytime I want you know, that's how into me.
Speaker 2:he is, it's a very very different meaning than I have to, or you know, he always wants it and one way is the safer way to make it an obligation. I mean it sort of feels safer. The other takes a little more courage to actually cherish and show up more wholeheartedly. But that's where all the energy is, that's where all the good stuff is.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and once you're confident, like you said, in showing or maybe like becoming confident by telling them what you like or what you need or what matters to you, then you're actually enjoying the experience. So it's even easier next time I see them doing the dishes to be like I would like to feel good right now, like let's go make out, like why would I want to just have him take me if I am only responding to him?
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, exactly, yep. And again, we've been taught so much to just be responsive as opposed to agentic and like what do I desire? But when we do like, our bodies respond when they again. Aerosenergy comes with a sense of freedom and choice. So if you're in this, I have to, it's gone. If you're like, no, I want, I desire, I wanna create this that brings all of that sense of agency to your sexuality, that's very, very important in desire.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I love thinking about agency and desire together, because you don't I mean, agency feels very I'm like obsessed with agency. It feels very religious, though, and desire. Often we talk about it that it's kind of something that's well. We always talk about needing to be bridal, but in fact it doesn't always need to be bridal than it's. I mean, we have it on purpose. It's a really great emotion. I love thinking about those together. Like you, get to choose desire.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, exactly, exactly. And when we are bringing that choice and aeros to sexuality, sexuality becomes spiritual, even.
Speaker 1:Right and people are like what.
Speaker 2:I don't get it. But that is to say it starts to feel like a way to be in this space with your partner that feels connected and grounded and expanding right, and it's a rejuvenating place to be. I mean people that love sex, it's because they know the rejuvenation that's there. That's why they like it so much. So, yeah, it's late at night and yeah, you're tired, but I don't mean that you never decide not to, but it's just that it's a rejuvenating place to go as a place you wanna go, and so it's worth your time and your energy right, yeah, and when you're really in it, you are definitely in your body and not thinking about your body.
Speaker 1:That's right. The closest thing that's not like sexual to me is like yoga. They're always encouraging you not to think about your body. So when I'm actually in my body, especially during the end when you're meditating and you're laying down, it almost brings me to tears because I'm so grateful for my body in that moment. So I can imagine in a really good experience with your spouse you're so grateful for the two of you. You're grateful to connect, you're grateful for this ability, like that gratitude, that 100%. That's what you're saying about them.
Speaker 2:I think it's wonderful and I think what you're saying is just exactly right, and I think we can even practice making love to our own bodies. I know that sounds a little strange, but like even just lying in a state of meditation or just like you're saying, and just like to express gratitude and love to this body that's there for you, that lets you do all the things you do in the day to day, that supports your life, and that you're grateful for it and you cherish it. I think, some house cleaners are showing up.
Speaker 1:So I was just gonna share this quote. I was just gonna share this quote that I wish I knew the author, but she says I will only be this age once. Let me be with her.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I appreciate what my body is at 38. Like I'll never have her again. So can I just like love on her and be grateful because she'll be gone tomorrow.
Speaker 2:That's right, and so our mandatory is different tomorrow, but that's exactly right. It's a way of cherishing the now, cherishing who you are now, instead of falling always into what we don't have and what we're lacking, and rather than can I embrace the good that's here, right now, today.
Speaker 1:So good. Thank you so much. I love being in your presence. You're such a wealth of knowledge and I love I'm somebody too. I kind of geek out on learning and I teach. My kids are always like can we play now and stop teaching mom Like okay. But, will you tell everybody, maybe like a program or two, something that you feel like might be great to look into and where they can find it, cause I know you have several programs that you offer.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll just tell people more about Room for Two, since you brought it up. So Room for Two is just an online subscription podcast where you can listen into me coaching couples on relationship and sexuality issues, and so you can listen into a series of couples, and the thing that's so great about it is people can see themselves in the stories and they can learn what I'm through what I'm teaching. They don't have to be in the hot seat, they don't have to be the one, and so it makes it actually easier to learn because you can see what's happening, you can see my feedback and you can also say, like, okay, we do that. So that's called Room for Two and you can find it on my website, which is finnlaysandfifecom. And then I have online courses where you can sit down and do more intensive one on your relationship, on your sexuality. I have one for men, one for women, and then two couples courses and also one on how to talk to your kids about sex.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you've hit all the bases. Wow, thank you so much, jennifer. You're very welcome.
Speaker 2:Okay, we'll see you again soon. Thank you, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:If you have questions about anything you've learned here on the podcast or want to help with something going on in your own life, hop on a free coaching call with me. In just 30 minutes you'll have real tools for your unique situation. Go to limitlessfemalecoachingcom forward slash workwithme, or you can find a link in the show notes below. Spots are limited, so grab one before you miss it.