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Get on the list for our monthly open office hours where you can ask emylee your questions through zoom! Did I mention it's free!
Ever wondered how to talk to your kids about sex without feeling awkward or invoking fear? Join me as I team up with Carly Webb-Palmer, The Christian Sex Educator, to unravel the ins and outs of discussing bodies, consent, sex & modesty with our children. This candid conversation promises to leave you with a fresh perspective on sex education, rooted in faith and open dialogue, shifting away from the dread of the 'big talk' and towards ongoing, shame-free conversations.
For a step by step guide for what and how to talk to your kids when it comes to sexuality, Here is a great resource from Carlie!
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
Need more help?
Get on the list for our monthly open office hours where you can ask emylee your questions through zoom! Did I mention it's free!
Ever wondered how to talk to your kids about sex without feeling awkward or invoking fear? Join me as I team up with Carly Webb-Palmer, The Christian Sex Educator, to unravel the ins and outs of discussing bodies, consent, sex & modesty with our children. This candid conversation promises to leave you with a fresh perspective on sex education, rooted in faith and open dialogue, shifting away from the dread of the 'big talk' and towards ongoing, shame-free conversations.
For a step by step guide for what and how to talk to your kids when it comes to sexuality, Here is a great resource from Carlie!
interested in SHIFT? Want a free call with EMYLEE? Grab a spot for a free call here
Find more information and Free resources HERE:
https://hernextstep.limitlessfemalecoaching.com/landing-page-her-next-step
Have a question about the program or something you want answered on the podcast? Come chat with me on instagram!
@Limitlessfemale
Our kids need to be hearing about bodies and consent and sex from a young age from us, and it needs to be consistent, informal communication. It's not sit down serious conversations, it's just day to day. We've got to be talking about these things more often.
Speaker 2:Woman, welcome. If you're a mama who is feeling all the feels of motherhood the ups and downs of hormones and maybe even depression then you are in the right place. Limitless female is your confident inner voice, helping you master your mood and create the epic life that calls you. My goal is to show you just how enough you are so you can show up limitless in your own life. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, emily here with the Limitless Female Podcast, you guys are listening to episode 125, how to Talk to your Kids About Sex with Christian Sex Educator Carly Webb Palmer. I'm so excited to introduce you guys to our guest today, but first I have to encourage you guys to subscribe to the podcast. I don't think I've asked you to do that very often, but it's really important because I will be dropping coaching sessions. These are sessions I've recorded in the past with clients who have allowed me to share them with you, so you can get basically free coaching. You can put yourself in my client's shoes. I promise you will hear your story and their story and you'll be able to use the tools I'm offering to them to help you. So don't forget to subscribe so that your podcast app will push my podcast to you when they are available. Okay, let's get into the podcast today.
Speaker 2:Recently I had Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fifehahn, who is so smart and has so much background in sex education studies and works primarily with husbands and wives, and she brought so much information about what to do when you have a higher desire partner and a lower desire partner, which is something that happens a lot when you struggle with any kind of mental health or situational depression, because whose libido is up when you're sad not mine and then we have medication in the mix which lowers many of our libidos. It is totally a sexual drive killer. And so one thing I love about Carly Palmer, who we have on today, is that she is really good at educating people in all different walks of life and she calls herself the Christian sex educator and she is fantastic. And one of the things I'm really excited she's going to be doing today is teaching you about how to teach your kids about sex, because I don't know about you, but I don't even remember getting the sex talk y'all. I don't. I remember asking my mom questions about things I heard at school and then just kind of like putting it all together and mashing it up into like this word salad about what sex was, and that's all I got. Needless to say, I needed more sex education because after I got married, I was really confused about how high should my sex drive be, and I've heard questions from friends about what their wedding night should be like and about pain and all these different things that they never talked about with their fiancé. But the part I know you guys are really interested in because I know you're primarily mothers or just women my age is teaching your kids.
Speaker 2:Also, today's world is so different than when we were young. It's such a different world to talk about sex and I really like the way Carly comes about it. Her approach is so different than the way many of us grew up. I think we took such an approach of hiding everything and maybe using fear to scare people away from things that might lead them down the wrong path, and I feel like that's kind of an old way and we got to step into the new way, which is leading through faith, not fear, and so I love that Carly does that. She really teaches you how to own your body, to teach your sons to honor the female body rather than be afraid of it, and I just don't think fear is our best motivator. I think it's a okay motivator, but not our best motivator.
Speaker 2:Okay, so Carly Palmer Webb is a gender sexuality researcher, a proclaimed data nerd, enthusiastic Jesus lover, a new mama which is so cool and the Christian sex educator, and she's made her life mission to provide shame free sex education for Christians. Like I said, in every stage of life, shame free is the coolest part because, like I said, have we not used fear for years and years to keep us on the straight and narrow? I don't think it's the highest law we could live. I don't think it's the best way and I really like the way Carly teaches us and teaches us to teach our kids. So, without further ado and no more chit chatting, here is Carly Just like super stoked to have you here. When I came across your Instagram and I didn't want to start my Instagram message like that, because you know people are like I was just cruising Insta and fell down the rabbit hole to yours and wanted to you know they're always trying to sell you something.
Speaker 2:So I was like how can I let her know I'm not like a salesy weirdo.
Speaker 1:But that is how I found you.
Speaker 2:I literally like never I'm on Instagram except for my own business. So people will mention different creators or educators and I'm like no, I don't know anyone. So recently I'm like trying to be connected in the world of other women doing great things and I came across your page and you just have like the best energy and you're so smiley and I very rarely see people talk about this. I haven't come across any other accounts or other educators that are doing this, especially for parents to teach their kids, and that's the realm.
Speaker 1:So you can find others, but you definitely have to be searching for it, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes. So tell everybody a little bit about what got you interested in this, and then also like your background, your education.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I kind of got into this accidentally. Maybe sounds bad, but but it was. It started just as my own journey trying to educate myself. I grew up in an incredible family. We tease my parents about they should win every parenting award except oh they really are fabulous.
Speaker 2:I would so take that. That'd be a win.
Speaker 1:They're so awesome, but sex ed was just not a part of our upbringing.
Speaker 1:We didn't talk about bodies, we didn't talk about consent, we didn't talk ever about sex.
Speaker 1:You know, we didn't say the word sex so it just wasn't a part of my upbringing.
Speaker 1:So as I became an adult, started dating more seriously, I was like I should probably know more than I do and on my path to educate myself, I realized how little content there is out there specifically for someone like me who grew up Christian and had some moral and religious convictions about sex, but didn't have the education to really support any of that or to help me navigate desire and things like that while I was single. So I was just working to educate myself, couldn't find a lot of the resources that I wanted and eventually decided to pursue an education to become the sex educator that I wished I had had. So, to answer your background question, I have a bachelor's degree in human development and a master's degree in marriage, family and human development, with an emphasis in healthy sexuality. So all of my research in graduate school was focused on healthy sexual development and sexual relationships, and that is now my full time gig is trying to provide the kind of sex education that I felt like I so desperately needed but couldn't find.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that. That is so amazing. And you know, like the best teachers are always born out of, and the best, like inventions, out of lack right, like I don't have something that makes my grilled cheese, without me doing it like I need, you know, an instant grilled cheese maker.
Speaker 2:That's so awesome, I love that. So when you talk about, like better sex education, what do you mean? Like, what are we missing currently? And I mean I can think of a lot, but also not super specific. I think for myself, I just know it's not there only because I started to have conversations with my kids and realize, like, oh, I need to watch a video on this.
Speaker 2:Or like well like realize I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, so my experience with I mean that isn't that the way the entire, you know, parenting journey. But I also have, like I think I read. The night before I got married I read a book by a pastor.
Speaker 1:That was my sex education before I got married, I mean other than you were not alone.
Speaker 2:my friends and I work with moms who struggle with their mood or depression or anxiety, and that plays a big role into emotions and hormones which affect our desire and our drive as well. And so like understanding, like what healthy sexuality is and kind of the mind frame that you can come into even intimacy with was a process because I had to kind of figure it out on my own. No one told me yeah.
Speaker 1:So many of us are, have and continue to figure this out on our own because we don't know where else to turn. And I think, especially for people in our generation, there just wasn't much happening in the home and maybe a little bit in school. But I think most of us, especially those of us who grew up in religious homes, really just didn't get anything. Yeah, got maybe one talk from our parents, you know, a serious sit down, and and that just wasn't sufficient to help us understand our desires and our own sexuality, not to mention trying to transition later on in our lives into a sexual relationship and figuring out how to do that. You know, the one talk when we were 12 really wasn't going to cut it for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally see you're saying yeah, it's like the talks have. Do you have to have more than one? Because what we're changing and getting older and the things we need to be talking about, you then need to get deeper or different. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 1:Definitely, and that's actually one of the main principles. When you ask what better sex ed looks like, one of the main things that we need to shift is the amount of times we're willing to have these conversations, so the day of the talk that's. That's over. We don't have the luxury now. Even I mean it probably wasn't ideal 20, 50 years ago either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was something.
Speaker 1:But now that our children are being exposed to so much more, so much younger, that just isn't an option. Our kids need to be hearing about bodies and consent and sex from a young age from us, and it needs to be consistent, informal communication. It's not sit down serious conversations, it's just day to day. We've got to be talking about these things more often.
Speaker 2:I love that you said that, because I was like, oh no, I've only did like one talk. But when you say consistent, informal, I definitely feel like that is something that we do in our house, because and I love you said to, because I think I was worried like, do I talk about like too many things? I love talking to my kids about what's going on in the world. We listen to podcasts together, we discuss, like you know, because I love learning, you know and so they're in the car with me and sometimes I'm like, is this okay, is this not okay? But I do feel like you know, talking about bodies, talking about I kind of am glad that I gained weight over the last three years because I feel like not only has it made me like come to a new level of like letting go of body image and some silly constructs I had, but also letting my kids see that like, oh, your body, because their body will change.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And not to just like fixate on a one type of body in one way. And yeah, so I love that informal, consistent, like just constant in everyday life. So how do you recommend bringing up sex to your kids If somebody's never done this before? But they don't want to have the talk, but like they got to start somewhere. Where would you start?
Speaker 1:Right. If you haven't had any of these kinds of conversations with your kids. What I would recommend kind of depends on age a little bit, but if you still have young kids and haven't been having these conversations, the first thing that I would start with is body parts, and they're correct names. So I encourage parents to use correct animal animal, all like the word comes out, animal instead of anatomical, but sometimes I trip over my words. I encourage parents to use correct anatomical terms for body parts with their kids from birth. Now if you're thinking, yeah, well, my kids are grown already or they're- a little older than I have been doing that.
Speaker 1:That's okay. You just tell your kids hey, I've actually learned that this is really important. So I want you to know now the correct terms for your body parts and we're going to start calling them that instead of whatever you've been calling them the little nicknames or just avoiding them in general.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's a really good place to start, and it's not talking about sex, it's just talking about bodies, but it does a couple really important things using the correct terms. One is it communicates to children that those body parts are normal and they're not shameful. They're as normal and as healthy and as okay to talk about with parents as your elbow or your forehead or your foot, you know. We say penis, we say vulva, we say vagina. Those kinds of things can be really helpful. The other reason that it's helpful is it's a preventative measure against abuse.
Speaker 1:The more our children understand about their own bodies, the more they know that it's okay to talk about, the less likely it is that they will be the victim of child sexual assault. Unfortunately, nothing we can do will be the perfect protection right, you can do everything right and your children can still experience that, and that is awful and heartbreaking and I know none of us want to think about it. But things like knowing they're correct, the names for their body parts can serve as a protection, both to show to people who might be perpetrators that they know their body and that they're not afraid to talk about it, that they will go tell an adult if something happens and if something does happen, they'll know how to explain it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, like yes, if something happens, then they can explain it. I can see that.
Speaker 1:But now.
Speaker 2:I get it. The preventative part is that I feel like predators use shame, like well, now you can't tell anybody what we did, so how does it prevent it from happening at all? Like, do you think that a predator would start talking about the body parts or I don't know? Start maybe with a conversation like grooming them or something?
Speaker 1:There's always some grooming. There's always some grooming typically and well, I shouldn't say always Most often there is. And people will look. Those who might want to sexually assault will look for victims who they think won't talk about it, who they think will be easy to manipulate. They might look for children with personalities who are a lot more shy or timid or worried about things. I don't want those of you with shy children to freak out about that. You know there are things we can do. But children who research has shown that children who know their body really well, that that's when a perpetrator knows like, oh, this child knows their body, they know safe and unsafe touch, for example, they know it's more likely that that child's going to talk, so they're less likely to victimize that child.
Speaker 2:Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:A child who doesn't know those things. These kinds of conversations always feel like ugh, so heavy and so hard, I know, but it's so important to know. So, yeah, it is protective in that a perpetrator will look for certain things in a child and a knowledge of their body, a knowledge of safe and unsafe touch. Those are not things that they want their victims to know.
Speaker 2:Okay, that makes so much sense. Knowledge of safe and unsafe touch that makes so much sense. Okay, so for me I think you know the first conversation I had somebody had told me, like you know, and the car is such a good place because you don't have to be eye to eye, but they're stuck there with you.
Speaker 1:This is how advanced my sex education is.
Speaker 2:This is not like. This is formal. This is like someone told me like they're stuck, you know you don't have to have eye contact. This is where I go with this, and I do remember feeling like and here's the thing I am such a prude like I don't use the real words which I'm like I need to start using that, but in those conversations I did, and it would have made it so much more comfortable if we had already been using the anatomical terms it does.
Speaker 1:It does. But I think a lot of parents listening to this are like oh, if I'm not the only one who doesn't use the real words.
Speaker 2:That's why I thought I would like to say it, because I'm like, and I'm also like such a silly, goofy person that, like, I'm always using random, weird words and I can see the benefit, especially when it comes to sexual assault, and that makes total sense, that if they're confident about their body and what's unsafe and safe, someone's probably won't target them, right, that's really.
Speaker 1:That makes it less likely and and I grew up in a home we didn't even say bum in my home, like we said, bottom yes it was a very like we don't say words home.
Speaker 1:I never grew up saying the real words for my body parts and so even still sometimes it's a little uncomfortable for me. I already practice with my five month old. He doesn't obviously understand anything that I'm saying, but when he's in the bath I'll be like okay, I'm going to wash your belly and I'm going to wash your legs and I'm going to wash your penis and I'm going to wash your scrotum. You know, I just practice, yeah, so that as he gets older it will feel more natural. But like I'm a sex educator for a living and it's still a little bit uncomfortable, yeah, that's totally normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it saying the real words takes the shame away.
Speaker 2:Yes, I loved that it's so important, it's so important. Whatever the adversary is in your mind or someone's mind, shame is like the greatest tool of whatever the opposite is that you're trying to do and just you wanting to like hide and stop and run away. And I totally see that in marriage. I mean shame about the fact that I first got married. We were like being intimate like two times a day and then shame over. Is this weird that I don't want to keep doing that all the time?
Speaker 1:Right and how often.
Speaker 2:You know, like should I tell them that? And luckily, me and my spouse are like besties so we have like that kind of like. You know, just talk about whatever. But it was also news to my spouse, right, that like I didn't have the same drive that he had, but that would have been really nice if he went into marriage knowing that. How different our drives would be. You know, I think I said something to the effect of like you could get cancer and I would be fine, like I just want to be with you, like hanging out with you, and he was like heartbroken, like what? And I get that now, like how? From his perspective, it's like what are you talking about? Yeah, in the moment, you know, I'm like just trying to help him understand. You know, and I remember going on a run with a girlfriend and she also was on medication for depression and I was like, like how, what do you do?
Speaker 2:Like, how do you get interested? Or do you just ignore how you're feeling? And you know, start being intimate with your husband and she's like we watch the bachelor. You know, I'm like that's such a good idea, but it's not the greatest of ideas and I realized that that's my. I don't have any resources right and so I was like parents can really use what you are teaching for sure, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:It is our lack of education as kids and then as adults too. It really does impact our lives so much. But knowing where to go to find helpful resources is a huge, huge help in those situations, like if you and your husband would have been able to find some education before you got married. And then like, as you're navigating differences in desire and things like that, if you had resources that you were learning from for example, that discrepancy and desire is not only normal but prevalent in almost every single long term sexual relationship Like that would have mitigated a lot of the hurt feelings and heartbreak and come with that, just because when you don't know if something's normal, it feels like something's wrong with you right, that should be like on a t-shirt.
Speaker 2:Love that phrase.
Speaker 1:We don't want to feel like that and we also don't want our children to feel like that. So, helping our children learn these things from a young age, helping them learn as they grow into their teenage years, as they navigate puberty, helping them to navigate sexual desire and know that that's normal, and explain to them what arousal looks like and when they might experience it and how to navigate. They need to know that those things are normal, that they're experiencing, so that they don't have a lot of shame attached to them as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because when we're not specific and I was going to ask you this next like how do you feel like you know you're a Christian sex educator how do you feel like that plays a role?
Speaker 2:And I'm thinking like from my point of view, it seems like when we're so non-specific because we are uncomfortable or we're not sure if it falls into our values to be specific, maybe is how it used to be I feel like then it becomes it must be shameful because we don't speak of it right, and so like then we start to think like are these thoughts sins? Is arousal a sin, all of these things? And I feel like then we swung kind of the other direction where we tried to be more specific in church classes about what specifically was a sin, which is kind of useful, and also it's very personal and personal revelations like that. So it's good to get it somewhere outside of the gospel, I think I mean you know what I mean there's great education that we need to get that separate from our religious beliefs. So I'm excited to hear about how your own religious background has played into the way that you teach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think we need to make a really important distinction when it comes to sex ed with our kids. There's a difference between comprehension of healthy sexual development and healthy sexual relationships and sexual morality. Those are two important things but they're separate. So Typically and traditionally in Christian settings and I assume that in any conservative religion it's similar there's a strong emphasis on sexual morality.
Speaker 1:So we talk a lot about what is and isn't a sin. We talk a lot about things like waiting until marriage to have sex. We talk about avoiding pornography. We talk about the kind of rules or guidelines we have around sex and where it belongs. We don't talk a lot about sexual development and healthy sexual relationships from a comprehension standpoint. So we say don't have sex until marriage, but we don't explain what sex is and what it can look like in a really healthy, happy relationship. So we have the morality without the comprehension, and that's a pretty dangerous place to be because there's a lot of shame. There can be a lot of shame and without the comprehension there's a ton of shame for things that don't warrant it, like experiencing sexual desire as a single person, which almost everyone will experience, and we may have some moral convictions about what to do with that desire and how to navigate it, which is totally great, but we also need to understand the normalcy of it. So I think that parents, christian or otherwise, need to focus more on the comprehension in addition to the sexual morals.
Speaker 1:I think, regardless of your beliefs, sexual morality is an important part of development. Our children need to have a sense of morality around their sexuality and sexual behaviors. Even if it's just as simple as understanding and respecting other people's consent, that's a moral issue that I think every person needs to understand. Yes, but if you have religious views on top of that, awesome. I want you to teach your children your religious views. I want you to help them understand your moral beliefs about sexuality. I also want them to understand their body parts, what intercourse is. I want them to know, especially as they get older, safe and unsafe touch in relationships, what consent looks like in a relationship. They need to understand what pornography is and how to avoid it, and why pornography maybe doesn't teach us about healthy sexual relationships. They need to understand puberty. You know all these things. They need the comprehension to back up and support the sexual morality that we're teaching.
Speaker 2:That's a perfect example when you talk about pornography because we're just like, just don't, because it stirs your desire, and then we just leave it at that. I think there's so many even better reasons to avoid pornography that I think will land so much better when we talk about how it's fueled and who are these people in the pornography industry and how it feels like sex trafficking. There's just so many really good reasons to avoid something like pornography and we can be more specific about all of that.
Speaker 1:I thought growing up that pornography was bad. I knew that I was supposed to avoid pornography because I heard that in church, even though my parents didn't really talk about it. So I thought pornography was bad because pornography depicted sex and sex was bad. So that's why I assumed pornography was bad.
Speaker 1:Same here and yeah, without a deeper understanding, it was always in my mind sex is bad, Pornography is bad because sex is bad, and masturbation was something that I was taught not to do in church, which I didn't even know what that meant at the time. But when I did learn about masturbation what it actually was, I was like, okay, masturbation is bad because sexual feelings are bad and sex is bad. It just all felt like the end story was sex is bad and with that message transitioning into a sexual relationship, even one that aligns with your moral convictions like the total nightmare trying to be in a healthy sexual relationship with that belief.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker 1:So if someone had helped me understand, like pornography is not bad because sex is bad, and I realized that not everybody who's listening to this has moral convictions against pornography, and that's totally okay. This is just an example. But if parents do want their children to avoid pornography, and especially at young ages, I think that's important for all children. You're teaching sex is a really good thing and it's happy and it's pleasurable and it can bring you closer to this person. And like, if you want to teach that it belongs in marriage, awesome, do that.
Speaker 1:And there's something called pornography and it's not bad because it depicts sex. It's negative because it depicts sex in a really negative light. There's a lot of violence. It doesn't teach us to have healthy and kind and loving sexual relationships. You don't see people in pornography saying I love you and going on a walk at night with their kids or their dog and doing the dishes together. Pornography doesn't depict relationships. Pornography depicts sex and it's unrealistic and it's violent. There are things that we can help our children understand so that they see that, oh, my parents believe that sex is a really good thing and that it's a normal thing and that it's a happy thing, and they believe that pornography is unhealthy because of these reasons. It doesn't need to be. Pornography is bad because sex is bad.
Speaker 2:That's like the first time I've ever really identified that distinction. I think I still kind of thought like yeah, pornography is bad, Like without saying out loud. You know, when you have a dream, you don't realize it's a dream until you go to share with somebody and you're like, oh, that's not true, that was a dream.
Speaker 2:I just realized like yes, I think I still believed like that's why we don't watch pornography, because it's depicting sex and we don't want our kids to have sex yet and therefore I think my brain it's bad right. So I really appreciate you saying that that is so profound that it depicts an unhealthy sexual relationship and that's you know that's not going to be good, or help us move forward.
Speaker 1:I personally think for me. I think that there's a lot to. Also, I don't believe in using other people for sexual gratification, a sexual I want my sexual experience to be in the context of love and lifelong commitment, and so for me there's also an additional moral belief of I don't want to take advantage of someone else, even if I'm just watching a video, even if they did consent to that video, which there's no way for us to know that but even if they did, I don't want to use them for my own sexual gratification, because that doesn't align with my beliefs, right? So there can be additional things that you talk about. When it comes to pornography, yeah, I want to make sure, whatever those are, that our children and teens especially understand that it's not bad because sex is bad, because sex isn't Sex is awesome, and they should know that.
Speaker 2:I can really good. I used to call it S. I know you're going to like just laugh at me, but I've gotten really good at things that. I grew up too. It's so normal.
Speaker 2:My family all makes fun of me because they're actually way more relaxed. But I was, like you know, the second mother like being way more strict than my mom, like why are you doing that? And so I called it S even like up to like maybe a couple of years ago. But I've gotten really good at saying sex because I coach people on it, so I have to maintain a straight face, like I'm an adult. I promise you guys, I'm good at coaching you on it.
Speaker 1:Practice works. It does If there are parents who are feeling uncomfortable with this practice. Man, it helps yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of that comes from their generation that nobody talked to them about, even like talking about their period was taboo. Oh yeah, you know. So it makes sense that our education maybe wasn't very specific as far as the words are.
Speaker 1:Our parents did the best they knew how, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But now we can do better. We can do better for our kids. We can do better. I love that. I want to. I know that we're jumping around, but if you don't mind, I would love if you would talk a little bit about modesty.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I saw that you talk about that a little bit and that's been the topic of conversation with me and other women that I'm friends with and around, and I have a teenage daughter. So all of a sudden I have nowhere and I was like, if you remember of my church, you know that it was more specific as far as the standards and the recommendations and they've. It's not that the rules have changed, it's that they're encouraging us to rely more on the principles of the gospel and then to kind of create our own standards from that and also for our kids to have their own, come up with their own idea of what that looks like for them. And so it's really for me as a parent.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden my daughter was going to girls camp and usually at girls camp there's this dress code. So I'm like all right, I was super excited, like we're going to order her some longer shorts and even she is on the rest of the year, at least she can see that. Like she could be cute and long short, she could feel comfortable, you know. And she's like well, there's no dress code. And I had to like battle with myself. You know, I was just like struggling and I was like I asked my husband where are we willing to draw the line? Is there a certain clothing where we're going to say you're not leaving the house in that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we kind of decided there really wasn't Like I didn't want to draw a line in the sand for a piece of clothing, for multiple reasons, and our what we kind of came to was let's just teach her self worth, you know, and then all the rest is kind of silly. Let's teach her to love herself. And and I do feel like when we focus too much on, like what we wear and covering up certain areas of the body, we almost like hyper sexualize their body, because we don't talk about boys bodies, 24, seven, like we do girls, right, so what? How do you talk about modesty? What's your?
Speaker 1:Well, you've.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, I mean this is, I mean this is Sorry, like the last like year has been like my mind. Yeah, how do I do this? So tell me, as you are a professional, tell me what you would, how you would go about it.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, first let me say this conversation I know is uncomfortable for a lot of people and I get it because I grew up with a very, very traditional view of modesty and a very strict. I grew up in a very strict home regarding modesty, so my parents were very particular about us, you know, wearing knee length shorts, no tank tops, always, always covering up any like there's. No, we're not even close to cleavage, like, we're so high above cleavage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's nothing right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things that aren't too tight. It was. It was talked about quite a bit in my home and it was. The rules were very strict in my home and I think that's how a lot of us grew up and my parents also were really positive about it. I don't want to communicate the idea that my parents were like super harsh or controlling in this area of modesty, like it was very much a we respect our bodies and they're just so important, right, you know, my parents were very kind about it. It was mostly my mom talking to us about it and all my dad, but so that's how I grew up.
Speaker 1:So when I first started grappling with modesty as a professional, but also as an individual who grew up in that kind of home and had those kinds of beliefs, it was really uncomfortable for me. So if you're listening to this conversation and feeling like, oh my gosh, what are they, what are they talking about? This is not okay. I understand those feelings. Yes, here's what I will say. I think, emily, you touched on something really important that that in the church that you and I grew up in and in, really in religion in general well, not just religion in society in general modesty has always been focused on the parts of a woman's body that are covered.
Speaker 2:So in any society, whatever the modesty line is here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rarely do we hear conversations about modesty for men or boys. Yeah, maybe a little bit when it comes to, like, modest hairstyles or, you know, not having a lot of piercings or something. For men, yeah, but for the most part it's what parts of women's bodies are covered. It may have been, in most societies, an attempt to limit the sexualization of women, like, even if it had a good, even if there were good intentions behind it, like you mentioned, what it has led to is the hyper sexualization of the female body. What should be covered and shouldn't be covered. It always becomes like breasts are sexual. We should never see them. Upper thighs are sexual, you know stomachs are sexual and somehow only for women. Like men show their stomach in swimsuits and that's appropriate women, if they show their stomach in swimsuits, that is viewed as sexual right. So as a society, we've gotten to this place I shouldn't say got to this place. We've been in this place since the beginning of time where women's bodies are sexualized and modesty rules that are specific contribute to that, can contribute to that and have.
Speaker 1:Personally, I still think that modesty as a principle is really important. I just don't view it as what is covered. Modesty is in my mind and the way that we, the way that it's talked about in scripture, if that's important to you, it's humility, right? It's a focus outward, a focus on other people and not on ourselves, and it also there's a lot of teachings in scripture about avoiding vanity, which I think is a part of it as well. That is maybe what modesty is intended, in its best form, to be the way to develop those characteristics. I don't think the best way to develop those characteristics is to make specific rules.
Speaker 1:So, as far as teaching children goes, I would try to focus on helping your children dress in a way that will help them to avoid vanity and focus outward, and a certain level of coverage is required for that. It's just going to be different for different people. Like I can't be in public showing a lot of cleavage and be focused outward because that's not comfortable for me personally. But someone else who's more comfortable with that could totally focus outward dressed differently than me, right? So I'm not saying that what you wear doesn't contribute to those things, but there's a journey of figuring those things out for ourselves. What clothing helps me to focus on the experience that I'm having and the people around me instead of what I look like or what I'm wearing, and we can help our children to figure that out, but it may require some trial and error, right?
Speaker 1:It may require that you let your teenage daughter leave the house in something that kind of makes you like, ooh, I'm going to cry.
Speaker 2:Well, I realized that it's like all I mean. I like to weigh all of these like social constructs and things that I've come up with in my own mind, next to, of course, gospel principles or things that matter to me, right, my priorities, because I want to keep some of those social constructs right. Some of them are great, but it is really interesting to notice, like, even when you're like well, men show their stomachs, my mind immediately is like it's a guy, and then like wait, whoa, that's so nuts, right, brain is just so conditioned to be this is bad, this is good, this is OK, this is wrong and I don't know. I just think that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:My dad's side of the family is all French, so it's a very different. They just view the body really differently, like there's nude beaches and body is beautiful and functional, or normalized, more normalized. Exactly that's what I was looking for. So absolutely, and I do think that that really rings true that maybe it started, or we do it as a way to maybe like hold the woman up above. I feel like sometimes people will say that that's why they want to continue a way that they are dressing women or, in a different country, that women are above right, that they're special and they're, but it sometimes just puts these unrealistic or I don't know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1:It's what you're saying. Even good intentions, even if it's intended to be like a respect thing or whatever, it's still leading to the sexualization of the woman's body, of the female body in general. So, whatever the intentions, it's not working.
Speaker 2:So let's try something different. That's so true, yeah. Yeah, it really goes hand in hand with clothes, like you said I love. You said that clothes being more functional, like to really aid in our life rather than us trying to it just clothes really go hand in hand with body image and this like hyper focus on what we look like, which is exhausting and all consume. It really is, and I sometimes think about what life would be like if we could really just like get rid of all the time we spend thinking about that's not fun, you know, like the fun. Yes, it's fun to put on makeup I love all that stuff but the part that's not fun. Or we're like sitting in a chair and we can't be present because we're like what do my back rolls look like in this stance? You know, like such a bummer, because being present I feel like it's the happiest part of our lives.
Speaker 1:When we're almost viewing ourselves from the outside in, it's a step closer to depression, whereas when we're present to step away from it, where we can just be happy and feel our emotions, you know totally, and I think we can help our kids learn that from a young age so that they're not having to rewire their brains in adulthood like so many of us are having to do. And helping them dress for their own experience is a way that we can do that. So when you're working with your little kids any kids you have at home if your kids are teenagers already, great, let's start there. Help them to choose clothing based on their own experience in their clothing. Right, are you comfortable? Do you think that you can play and run and jump in those clothes the way that you want to Do? You feel like you'll be able to do what you want to do in those clothes? Are they appropriate for the weather currently, which you know?
Speaker 1:That's always a fight with young kids anyway. But helping them to, even not focusing on how they think they look in those clothes Like we all want to feel cute totally, that's not a bad thing. But not focusing on that with our kids can help them know that that's not the most important thing. So even not saying like, do you feel like you look super cute in this? You know that's not a bad message. I'm not saying if you do that, that's a bad thing, but not saying it might help them to learn that that's not super important.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree it's not a bad thing, but I was like, oh my gosh, when you said that, because I every time they have someone like, did anybody say you look so cute today? That's what I asked my kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were little.
Speaker 2:I really focused on like saying like you're so smart, you're so brilliant, like not saying you're just so pretty or you're so cute all the time. But as they've gotten older, you know, I'm just like, because they're just so freaking cute, like what am I going to say?
Speaker 1:You know so, but such a good point they are cute, so it's hard to focus on it, but it is.
Speaker 1:If we want our children to grow into adults who care so much more about how they're like, what they're experiencing in the world and what they contribute and their kindness and their intelligence, and if we want them to care more about those things, we have to model that for ourselves, but also in the way that we talk to them. And you guys, I know that, like I study this, it's so important to me, it's my career. I think about all day, every day, and still, like the other day, I saw my nieces and one of my nieces had bought new clothes with her birthday money and the first thing that I said when I saw her was like, oh my gosh, you look so cute and that made her so happy. I don't think that's a bad thing. But afterwards I was like, okay, how could I do that differently so that I can say like, oh my gosh, the clothes that you got for your birthday, that's so fun and I like that?
Speaker 2:How can?
Speaker 1:I say that right, while not making that the first thing that they hear from me or the most important thing that they hear from me. Like, can I turn the focus somewhere else first and still like, tell your kids they're cute? You do have cute kids, I'm sure. But, tell them other things more, maybe.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's such a good switch because I do the same thing ever since. I think I read a post that you talked about that and I do the same thing afterward. I'm like, okay, but what would I have said? Because on the spot, there's no way I could think right and I feel like my first step of getting outside myself is complimenting other people. So I'm pretty good that I see them like you're so amazing, like you're so beautiful, you look so lovely today or you look so good in that color, and I feel like you know it's just like another progression to be like you're so wonderful, like I just love listening to you, you're so brilliant, or it's maybe you feel so happy when I'm around you, it's so good to see you.
Speaker 2:We can just keep up leveling. You know, whatever level we're at, just like keep getting better. You know, and I love that you talk about the way that they experience themselves in the clothes, because it also gets away from this we have like such a strong tie that we create others' feelings and they create our feelings, which is everything. You know that I teach, trying to just like kind of break that idea. So when we do that, how they look and the clothes they choose is about how they feel and has nothing to do with trying to please another person or trying to help another person that has specific thoughts and feelings about the opposite. Two years yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's another huge piece of the modesty, the modesty idea and the shift that I think we need to make as a society is teaching girls that they need to dress a certain way so that boys and men don't have sexual thoughts is so detrimental. That's such a problematic idea for so many reasons, one of the most important of which being we cannot teach women that they are responsible for the sexual thoughts and behaviors of men. That is feeding rape culture. Yes, like over and over and over and over, we have to get away from any teaching that puts the responsibility for any behavior, especially sexual behavior, on anyone except for the person who is actually doing the behavior.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So how do you feel like you? What would be like a first step that you would tell a parent of a girl or a boy, so both situations, to help them in that specific situation, like break away from thinking that they create someone else's sexual feelings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's what I would recommend. Actually, this maybe isn't what you're expecting, but if you're just trying to navigate this space or trying to explore a little bit in modesty or the responsibility for sexual feelings, things like that, the first thing I would do is read the book More Than a Body by Dr Lexie and Dr Lindsay Kite.
Speaker 2:I read that and took the course that is the only reason. I know any of the things I said today.
Speaker 1:That was so good, good, it is phenomenal. It really is these two women. They're twins but they both have PhDs and they study body image specifically. They are absolutely brilliant. Their teachings about modesty, body image, things like that are so helpful. If you're new to this space, that's absolutely the first resource I would recommend.
Speaker 2:I love that. I would add go through the book for you or the course for you, because when you change in your dialogue about yourself, changes the way you speak about. I feel like that has a huge impact on your kids the way you speak about your own body or about your own ability to create someone else's actions or behaviors.
Speaker 2:That is probably the strongest effect on your kids, because you don't realize how often you're setting example versus just teaching them something. I would add that, too, just read it for you first. Yes, totally Excellent book. I've read that course 10 times because it's the same reason that I continue to love coaching because I cannot get my brain to switch. It's like a continual, like trying to reprogram yes, it's like we're reprogramming ourselves as wild.
Speaker 2:Okay, I loved everything you taught today. I know people are feeling maybe a little overwhelmed because there was so much good information, because I have a tendency to talk fast and ask a lot of questions, so do you have a resource for them where they can get more help from you?
Speaker 1:Definitely. I have several. If you're needing them, yeah, let's hear about them. If you go to thechristianssexeducatorcom, you can find all the resources that I have for healthy sexuality and for parents as well. So there's a tab on my website that says parents. Click on that, okay. The thing I would recommend for those who are starting trying to teach their kids is I have a guidebook for parents. It's called teaching your kids about sex. It has. This one is actually just for ages zero to nine. The one for ages 10 to 18 launches in December or January, so it's coming. We're close.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, that's really cool, yeah.
Speaker 1:So these guidebooks are very specific. They're not going to be generally like talk more to your kids. I outlined specific lessons that your children should learn at every age. So ages zero to three this is what I would recommend teaching your kids, based on academic research and best practices in the field. Ages you know. Four to six this is what I think your children should understand. Ages seven to nine this is what your children should understand, and then how to teach it exactly what to teach how to answer their questions. You know it's very specific. So if you're a parent looking for that kind of information, the teaching kids about sex guidebook that you can find on my website is where I would start.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Yes, I need like very specific, like tell me what to say, so that's going to be perfect.
Speaker 1:That's why I created this guide because I felt like there are a lot of books and resources out there that are like you should teach your kids about consent or, you know, teach your kids about pornography, but you don't know exactly what to say. So this is hopefully trying to fill that space of.
Speaker 2:okay, here's exactly what you can say Doing the work all we have to do is show up and say the real words and do it. We can do it, you guys. Thank you so much, and that will be listed in the show notes below, you guys, so you can click that link and you can find Carly the Christian sex educator. I'm so excited for everybody to have this podcast in their hands and that book in their hands is going to be an amazing resource. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. If you have questions about anything you've learned here on the podcast or want to help with something going on in your own life, hop on a free coaching call with me. In just 30 minutes you'll have real tools for your unique situation. Go to limitlessfemalecoachingcom. Forward slash, work with me, or you can find a link in the show notes below. Just eliminate it. So grab one before you miss it.