Youth Ministry Booster
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Youth Ministry Booster
Write It Down | Faith & Fear In Youth Ministry Leadership w/ Kate Downing
Kate Downing joins us to discuss her new Bible study "Fighting With Fear" and shares profound insights about the theological significance of fear in ministry leadership and decision-making.
• Fear itself isn't bad—we were designed to fear, but the object of our fear matters
• Ministry decisions often trigger fears about consequences and others' opinions
• The "brain dump" technique helps sort problems into what you can and cannot control
• Decision fatigue plagues ministry leaders who try to reinvent the wheel annually
• Document everything to avoid recreating the same work year after year
• Christian leadership requires balancing fear-fueled paralysis with reckless fearlessness
• Scripture mentions the fear of God over 200 times as our proper orientation
• Leaders should filter decisions through the question: "Does this honor and obey God?"
• Student anxiety often reveals deeper theological misconceptions about God's character
• Ministry in 2025 should focus on equipping students as ministers, not just recipients
Check out "Fighting With Fear: Becoming Fearfully Unafraid" by Kate Downing, available now wherever books are sold. The six-session Bible study for teens includes video access and additional resources.
Let's do it Snap.
Speaker 2:Hey, we're back with another episode of the Youth Nourishing Booster podcast, hanging out in the summer garage with our good friend Kay Dowdy. What a party this garage is.
Speaker 1:It is a wonderland in here, oh my gosh, very impressive.
Speaker 2:It's air conditioned this year, though, for the first summer in a minute, praise God. Yeah, it actually is very temperate out here in the garage. We are not sweating to death like we had in so many other years. And, chad, you're welcome. Chad, you're welcome All future episodes that Chad will be broadcasting in the garage.
Speaker 1:He suffered, so we could all run.
Speaker 2:He did that's right. He sweat, so you all could savor. Oh my gosh Now we're preaching. Now we're preaching, okay, by the way, speaking of preaching, kate, my friend, we're going to get into the whole thing and there's like a whole book attached to it and all this stuff, whatever. But I want to talk to you because we have to address a few things. Number one do you want to talk about pop culture or do you want to make your apology first? What would you rather do?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not necessarily feeling a sense or a need from the spirit to apologize for anything. We'll see. So we can go pop culture first if we need to. Okay, great yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, Pop culture question Kate, have you seen the latest Mission Impossible movie and two? What did you think of it?
Speaker 1:I indeed have seen it. And let me tell you, not only have I seen it, but I saw it with all the other grandmothers at 10.30 am.
Speaker 2:Did you bring the fleecy blanket and the teacup and then you were ready.
Speaker 1:You know you better believe I did and I did a little recliner chair.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Like a pro.
Speaker 2:Like a pro a pro. Okay, so you did not see it in imax then I did not okay. So, uh, I have to share a little story with you. I went, saw it, I'm actually karen. It was my reward for getting my paper done for seminary. So applause everybody. Yeah, yeah, we're so good. So yeah, um, but there's a little pre-roll where tom, handsome tom, comes out.
Speaker 1:He did he do it for years?
Speaker 2:okay but he comes out and he's like thanks for making movies possible. We made this movie for you, yeah, and the grandma's behind me, so the boomer lady sitting behind me literally swooned at 6 pm on a Saturday where they were like, oh, they were. It was like, oh, they went full like Leigh-Anne Morgan with it, like, oh gosh, y'all, he made it for us so sweet, so sweet. And so it was too, karen and I couldn't. And every time that he was like shirtless or like action pose or whatever the rest of the movie, there was like little, like murmurs and giggles, and I was like what is happening? Wow, yeah, it was a lot. It was not the viewing party I thought it was with.
Speaker 2:So I want to hear 1030 when you saw it. Opening day. Yes, how'd that go. What did you think?
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, okay. Well, in general I do recommend a 1030 in the morning movie.
Speaker 2:I love it. A great time, a brunch fest. A brunch fest Did.
Speaker 1:I eat popcorn for breakfast. Maybe I did All right. There needs to be no judgment. It was very empty.
Speaker 2:You know, no one bothering me at 1030 in the morning.
Speaker 1:But I would say movie overall.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:We've not talked about this.
Speaker 2:Mission Impossible 8. We haven't talked yet. Final Reckoning 2. Final the Reckoning Whatever, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. Final Reckoning.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I had prepared my heart ahead of time.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because I feel deep emotions in movies and I love the Mission Impossible series. I was prepared that either, and there's no spoilers here, but I was prepared that Tom would die.
Speaker 2:Some would say that he probably should have Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Well, in many, many, in every movie yes, physically he should have definitely died or that there would be like a let me say this without a spoiler a passing on of the torch in some way.
Speaker 2:Which, if we want to do Mission Impossible history. We kind of all thought that was coming with Jeremy Renner and movie four I think it was four, but that really never came to pass, because who else can be Mission Impossible except for our guy Tom Cruise?
Speaker 1:Only Ethan Hunt can have the weight of the world. I kept thinking how is it possible that the weight of the world is on this man's shoulders so consistently? Can you imagine?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean not to spoil it, but they actually have a little monologue about that for him in this film.
Speaker 1:So if there was ever any delusion before.
Speaker 2:it's full delusion now, If there was ever any delusion before it's full delusion.
Speaker 1:Now it's the most clear. Yeah, the weight of the world is on this one man's shoulders.
Speaker 2:So much.
Speaker 1:Which there's some great tie-ins to studio ministry on that. I will just say ministry in general. Yes, Anyway, but I was very surprised by the ending. Oh, that it didn't feel like either of the things I expected it to be I felt like there was a door left open for there to be more than a final reckoning.
Speaker 2:Well, so many folks in our theater stuck around hoping for that post-credit scene.
Speaker 1:Oh for clarity. For clarity In some way, nope nope.
Speaker 2:So I will say this there is no post-credit scene. Save yourself a few minutes.
Speaker 1:Go ahead and get your refill of popcorn. Yeah, get your bathroom break on early.
Speaker 2:It's not coming like I, because again you feel it like there's a little moment, you're like you know what, like who? Who wins? After eight films, why not nine, why not?
Speaker 1:they done, they done.
Speaker 2:Let's fast and furious yeah yeah, oh gosh oh no okay, um, we need to talk about something else. Okay, you're welcome to apologize or not. You were recently on a webinar for our lifeway team about the new book that we'll talk about a little bit.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for doing it. We'll post the webinar replay in the notes below. But you made a comment. It wasn't about the content of the book. We love it. We're here for it. You said that Oklahoma is the Midwest. Do you still stand by your contention that Oklahoma is the Midwest, being mindful that we have many Oklahoman, ohioan, illinoisan, indianan and other actual— I don't know the Illinois—the Illinoised? I don't know, but they're listening. They might be, but they, they're listening, they're listening. We have folks that are from the real Midwest. Yeah, how do you fare?
Speaker 1:Well, zach, here's the thing I try to pray before I say anything, especially into a microphone, that, much like David says in the Psalms, god put a guard over my mouth, because who knows what stupid things may come out. Let me tell you what I did not have to go back and really, you know, ask the Lord for wisdom on. Was that statement?
Speaker 1:I felt very confident and still today feel very confident that what I communicated was in fact the truth. Given the fact that and I wish, how incredible would it be if there was just like a, like a map- that all of a sudden fell down and pointed yeah, yes, and we like green screen the situation. Anyway, if you can imagine with me a map of the United States, yeah. All right, when is Oklahoma? But exactly the very middle of the country.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It is neither South yeah Nor yeah, Nor anywhere except the mid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some would say mid South even. But go ahead. Ah, we love it, fred. No, it's good. The mid-south, midwest is not wrong, because the things that y'all talked about were correct. The tea isn't automatically sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is one of the qualifiers for being southern.
Speaker 1:That is very true.
Speaker 2:I would agree, if you have to label sweet tea, it's not quite southern.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:But the hospitality is strong, and so that is the conflicting.
Speaker 1:Well, I like to say it's Midwest, with great hospitality.
Speaker 2:There you go. Well, some of us are still fighting that Arkansas, oklahoma and Kansas are maybe the Missouri. Missouri is more than one Like grafted in Well, because Southwest is like New Mexico, Arizona, parts of Texas, but it's just I don't know. I don't know Geography debates continue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Southwest, but Midwest.
Speaker 2:We're going to go the mid, but it's more than mid because we live here and we love it.
Speaker 1:That's right. We do love it. It is a great place. I will say.
Speaker 2:Well, my friend, we are talking about fear today. So you have written a wonderful Bible study for our team over at Lifeway Students about fighting with fear for teenagers to walk through with adults. But for our listener base of youth ministry folks, we deal with fear in both related and unrelated ways, and so I wanted you to share a little bit, maybe even in a summer, fall season, where big choices are being made. Kay Downing, have you ever second guessed yourself as a ministry leader made? Kay Downing, have you ever second-guessed yourself as a ministry leader? Say more about it, if you're willing, and give us some encouragement, because I feel like second-guessing as a leader. For those that don't know or haven't felt it's like well, obviously never. I mean, it's the old referee thing, right? Referees can't believe they make bad calls or else they wouldn't have made them. But what about? What about leading in ministry stuff?
Speaker 1:Fran, what do you give us advice and wisdom? Yeah, I would say, sometimes I actually think about this. When I watch football, which I love, I think, does that ref go home and like, lay in their bed and second guess everything they've ever done in their whole life? As much as I do.
Speaker 2:Well, so our friend, our friend producer Nathan, for the podcast purposes he referees on the side and I asked him about it once. He's like you can't. You have to just know that whatever call you made is a call to stance and you just kind of have to live with it and I'm like buddy, how do you? He's like no, you just go home. You take the uniform off and just go home and live.
Speaker 1:Wow, I was like I know, I know, yeah, but what does that look like as a minister? That's what I want to know.
Speaker 2:I'm not wearing the white hat and the zebra shirt right now. I want to know what do you do when you're wearing the Birkenstocks and the camp t-shirt? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:So I would say a million times have I second guessed or questioned leadership decisions. I remember there was one moment in particular where we had a eighth grade girls I think it was eighth grade girls community group or small group that was booming, which is awesome, Praise God. What a great problem to have. But we needed to multiply it. We all know we use the terminology multiply. It's not dividing, we're multiplying.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right. What a gift. Soft math that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Casting vision.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, all the leadership words for you.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we knew that was healthy. There were girls that were sent to that group that couldn't you know, couldn't share, couldn't talk, all the things. But the leaders didn't love that idea. They loved their, you know, First Baptist Church, eighth grade.
Speaker 2:Well, they had accomplished the goal. They grew a group so large that it was now creating problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, exactly, and yes, exactly. And I remember just wrestling over is this the right decision? Should we do this? Should we, like you know, break up this thing? Is it going to die if we, if we do, multiply it? What do we? You know, what do we do in this moment? I just wrestled for so long and I got stuck in the desire for perfection over just living out my purpose and walking in obedience. Anyway, there's a million of those stories. But what is so wild to me is that, as soon as we finally honestly, anyway, there's a million of those stories.
Speaker 2:But what is so wild to me is that, as soon as we finally honestly, as soon as I finally just kind of like, sucked it up and did the hard thing, there was so much growth and so much peace and joy and all the things, and I was like, oh, I slept good yeah, because I just stopped worrying about it and finally made a decision do you feel like that's sometimes some of what the anxiety is is actually making of the decision, or what do you think for in working with the folks that are on your team or ministry friends throughout the years, Like what do you think creates that anxiety most? Is it about the trepidation of the decision or the consequences?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good, that's a great question, and I think honestly that's what I've been learning a lot about fear lately is that fear is actually a really good thing for us. Fear is the thing that we're designed to do, to feel it's an emotion that God has created, so it's not innately evil. The object of our fear is where we struggle.
Speaker 2:The object of our fear is where we get into trouble.
Speaker 1:We were designed to be controlled by fear, the fear of God, but we end up getting controlled by the fear of people pleasing, or the fear of what my leader is going to say when I multiply her group, or what my boss is going to say when I let him know that I've made this decision. You know so we fear the object of the consequence very often, like you were saying, when in reality that's the thing that's holding us captive then. And so I think sometimes for me it is the consequence of, but more so what people's perspective on my decision Like. That's what I fear more than, maybe more than anything else.
Speaker 2:The fear of what they will think of what I did, rather than what I actually did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, say a little more. For some folks maybe that are newer in their ministry journey, that feel like they're now in a world of choices. I mean, I think that's one of the things that I would characterize as ministry leadership, pastorate, directorship, whatever versus like a small group. Most small group leaders are existing in volunteer leaders are existing in the spaces that were handed to them. Some of the leadership things are what will you do with what's been given of you?
Speaker 2:It's a little bit for your small group leaders that were like, maybe fearful of your choice to multiply their group is, but we were doing a good job, why would you change it? And so for those that maybe have been put into the role of, especially for some of our folks that used to be volunteer leaders or only responsible for a small group and now they're responsible for a larger ministry area, what's some wisdom or insight you would give when it's like now we're making choices that would have more consequences, now we're trying to make changes? I think that's one of the words, at least for a lot of ministers. Fear and change are often wrapped up together. So how would you counsel and advise that way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think so often. We think that change is bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we start there Right, and so we're like, oh gosh, change is something to overcome.
Speaker 1:Yes, and oftentimes that's because that's the perspective of the people that we're trying to lead that change is bad.
Speaker 1:So there's, you know, the domino effect of well, my leaders can be mad at this If I make this decision, all the things, and with all the more decisions we have, the more people that are affected. So maybe the first thing I would say in this is what a gift that you understand the weight of the responsibility that you have as a leader, because at the end of the day, we are given the mantle, the responsibility of leading, shepherding people to know Christ, to walk with Christ. And so even the simple decisions I mean I say simple, but sometimes they're big decisions what color is the carpet gonna be? You know, what bus company are we using to get us to camp? What are we stopping at Chick-fil-A or are we not stopping at Chick-fil-A? Like? Some of these, like really simple things become really overwhelming to us. But it should be a reminder of the importance of what we get to do. What we do is helping to lead people to Christ. So, no matter if it's a small decision or a big one, it all leads into a goal of fulfilling the calling that God's placed on our lives.
Speaker 1:But I think what can trip us up is that decision fatigue. There's so many decisions to be made. There's so many things. It affects everybody. Everybody has an opinion, everyone wants to share their opinion, and it's always negative. It never seems to be positive, but at the end of the day, sometimes I have to go back to have I prayed more about this or have I worried more about this? Have I sought counsel to the point where I'm getting too much counsel and too many opinions and perspectives are swimming around in there. Do I need to just say, god, you've called me into this position, you've called me into this place? And, much like Nathan was saying as a ref, you know what, god, you've given me this mantle of authority. I'm going to make this decision.
Speaker 1:And God, at the end of the day, my worth and value was not found in people's perspective on this decision I made. It's not found on how it's received. My worth and value is found in who you are and, to the best of my ability, god, I'm going to make a decision that honors you, that honors the ministry that you've given me, and I'm going to move forward.
Speaker 2:I want to come back to the theological center of fear in a little bit, but there's some things that you said, some phrases, that made it sound like that maybe you had worked through some of this in your own leadership as a growing skill set. When I hear phrases like decision fatigue, do you chart out like some of the choices that you make the same every day to lessen things like that? Do you keep receipts of things Like how do you, if, if leadership has its own economy of of receipts and work and effort and time, uh, how are the things that you have learned, tried or done that other folks maybe could learn from? And not feeling like because I think you said it very correctly sometimes there's just so many decisions that there's either too many to make or they all feel that they weigh the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, and so legitimately like where are we going to get lunch before camp? And you're like literally like I gotta take a day to think about it. No, you don't, you just do the thing you're going to do. So what are some of those? Maybe like skillful practices or rhythms or things that maybe you've implemented to help lessen some of that leadership pressure pressure as it comes to to change decision choice leadership casting vision stuff, yeah, yeah, all the all the words, all the words, yeah.
Speaker 1:I would say that I am. I wish I was better at some of those things of like. You know this great, great structure of creating, you know decision trees and all the things. One of the things I love to do when I get overwhelmed is to practice this thing called a brain dump.
Speaker 1:So I love when my brain is overwhelmed and a counselor friend of mine taught me this, so by golly do I do it. But I write out okay, here are all the things that I'm trying to figure out or solve problems of, and then I divide those things out. What are the things that are in my control, what are the things that are not Okay?
Speaker 2:God. Step number one write everything out that's in your head that you feel you've got to decide about Yep. Step two is sort them by what can you actually decide and not decide?
Speaker 1:Yeah, lights and darks, you're doing laundry here, all right.
Speaker 2:However, you got to think about it, these get bleached. Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. So what are the things I have control over? What?
Speaker 1:are the things I don't the Okay. I now say, god, I have no control over how this parent responds to my email back to them. God, I have no control over how my senior pastor feels about how this event went. What I do have control over is the wording that I write in the parent email back. What I do have control over is how much I've communicated with my senior pastor on what's going to happen at this event. So, okay, god, these are things I have control over. What's the next right step in what I need to do? What's the next right decision? I don't have to make 20. I just need to make the next right decision. So that's one thing that's helpful. The other piece of this and my team, if they listen to this, will laugh very hard because this has been the theme of 2025 for us.
Speaker 1:But it is write everything, document everything.
Speaker 2:I am a person who I do not want to write that parent email every year for the same event.
Speaker 1:If we're going to go to camp every year, I'm going to take the parent email I wrote last year and sent in February, and I'm going to edit it to apply to this year and I'm going to resend that same parent email.
Speaker 2:Turn those fives into sixes.
Speaker 1:That's right I don't want to have to remake decisions on how I word this and how I explain it and what I'm asking of them. So if I can write everything down and save it, I can pull it back up the next year, edit it the way I need to, and I'm able to reuse and recycle some things that I've already put work into or somebody else has already put work into, so that helps me a lot in in some of that decision.
Speaker 1:Fatigue is, if I've already made that decision last year, okay, let me edit it change year.
Speaker 2:Okay, let me edit it, change it, you know, re-decide what I need to, but I don't have to reinvent the wheel on it. That's good, okay? Uh, well, take note, friends. Uh, if you're not writing down what you're doing this summer and fall for stuff in case you didn't know it, next summer's coming and you're probably gonna be always come every. It happens every year. Um, back to school happens every fall and summer comes all but once. But every year and every time people are surprised about how busy they are during camp season, especially 10, 15 years into it. I'm like you knew that. This was a lot right. Like I mean this come, come on. I mean, like you, you knew it was, you knew it was coming. Like people, people that aren't like getting camp fit, camp ready routine that you enter into post Easter.
Speaker 1:That's a great statement, zach. I'm telling you I do. There's a, there's a workout like standard I have for myself. I need to be physically.
Speaker 2:Camp cardio. It's real. I need to be able to handle what is about to come to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're stopping lifting and we're doing stair masters.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, we were climbing the flights, yep, truly as I'm eating a piece of cake yesterday at a wedding I was like this is not. You're fine, but it's all right.
Speaker 2:I do, I do. I need to tell on you a little bit. It was really funny. I was like, hey, do you want any sugar in your coffee? Like no, I brought my own. But then I was like, do you want a cookie? And you're like, well, yeah sure I know it's mom to me the things.
Speaker 1:The other day I was at like a bakery or something. I don't coffee shop, yeah and I order like I don't even know what it was like a cinnamon roll, we'll say, but then I asked for sugar-free syrup in my coffee right and I'm like I'm not really sure where my brain is on that, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's. It's the folks that get decaf coffees and then have like so much milk and I'm like your body is wrecked either way, it's, yeah, yeah you gotta, you gotta crying out for help. You got a venti. You got a caramel frat venti. I don't think the sugar-free syrup was the difference maker. Yeah, that was that was it. That was protected. That was it, friend. Just enjoy, live like. Yeah, live and let live amen.
Speaker 1:Enjoy that, enjoy your full sugar coffee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you spent nine dollars, friend, it's fine. Yeah, don't hold back now, okay, okay, but do you drink water? Oh, two cups of water for every cup of coffee. That's it. That's it, you're good? Yeah, have as much coffee as you want, just have twice as much water as coffee, yeah amen, and if you're good, you're good. Yeah, this is wisdom.
Speaker 1:This has been life wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, write this down you Write this down. Write this down, that's it, perfect. Okay, I do want to talk theologically, though, because you had mentioned some things in the webinar. Yesterday was reading through the book, and you said something earlier today that I want to dive into, and so, on the theological side of things, the idea that the fear of the Lord is the one true fear we should have, full stop, I agree.
Speaker 2:And yet sometimes for some people and that's where I want to hear some of your thoughts, because you have like sat with this, worked with this, marinated with this written, revised, recorded stuff, with this, it can also be a little bit of a gateway. I don't want to throw up a flare of a fancy word or a popular word of like narcissism, yeah, but there is a little bit like the phrase and that's popular, is that? Nobody but God can judge me. So how do we hedge with the right kind of humility, with also the right fear of the Lord and maybe I'm just being over anxious, maybe my fear of the right.
Speaker 2:Fear has kept me fearful instead of fearless. But I'd love to hear from you, especially in a culture where there are a lot of pastoral leaders that are like, well, I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do because the Lord told me to, especially in a town like Tulsa, where we've got a lot of people that are starting churches because they're like, well, nobody else but me and God can do it this way. So how, how would you encourage and do, cause I don't want the opposite side of people being so fraught with fear that they freeze.
Speaker 1:Then we have some people that are so fearless that they're almost borderline unfaithful because they're just wildly off the hinges. That is a that is a true word so.
Speaker 1:I think what you said there is so interesting is that it's usually this opposite of either I'm I'm so fearful of what's going to happen that I freeze, or I'm so fearless and what's funny is, when I set out to to write this study, my my thought process was like how can I help people be fearless, because that's my hope, like I want to be the person that's I want to be tom cruise I want to be ethan hunt, oh yeah I'm telling you, I think that's why I like that franchise. It's because I'm like I do indeed want to jump out of that airplane.
Speaker 2:I've chosen this mission. It's impossible, but I do accept it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do it and I'm going to— I might self-destruct in five seconds, I'm going to fist fight someone on a plane in the sky that I have somehow gotten from one plane to another playing to it.
Speaker 2:Anyway. That's who I want to be. Apparently that was all real. I have no idea it was like pulleys and whatever.
Speaker 1:Okay, go ahead. You know what? If anyone can do it, it's tom gross anyway, way to the world the weight of the world, so that's who I want to be right like, but truthfully that's, that's my selfishness well, because fearless is free, right, like that's.
Speaker 2:I mean, isn't that how we spin it pop in a popular culture way? If, if I am fearless, then I'm truly free.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can do all the things I want to do.
Speaker 2:Through Christ, who sets me free. Yeah, there's a lot of.
Speaker 1:Yes, but very often it is a me centered perspective. I want to do, I want the freedom, I want to feel peace, I want to have joy, I want to decide, I want to do all these things. That's kind of the mentality of that fearless version of things. But we were never created to be our own bosses. We were never designed to be the determining factor of our future or our actions or anything. We were designed we were knit together in our mother's wombs to be controlled by the power of the Holy Spirit, to be controlled by our creator, and in that, really, what that is is to be controlled by our creator, and in that, really what that is is is to be controlled by the fear of God. And so I don't think there has to be this juxtaposition of like I am so consumed by fear I'm, I'm useless, or or I'm free and I do whatever, and I never think about fear.
Speaker 1:That's where we end up in sin. Both sides of that is sin, because to be so consumed by the fear of people pleasing or what you know, am I going to be fulfilled, whatever, that's self-centered, to be so fearless that we don't care and we're just going to do what we want to do because it's what we think is right. Well, truthfully, what does that sound like? But the world and what the enemy tells us? Exactly what the lie that the serpent fed Eve in the garden? Hey, your plan for your life is better than God's plan for your life. You should just do what you want, girl, don't fear, don't worry, just go for it. And that's what we see in our students, that's what we see in our leaders, that's what we see in the world.
Speaker 1:So neither side we were designed for. What we were designed for was to be controlled, to be consumed, to be fully in awe of the character and person of who our God is. And that's why, more than 200 times in scripture, god commands us to fear, to fear him, that the object of our fear is always to be him. And I think, if that's the filter that we're making decisions through God, does this honor you God? Is this obedience to you, god? Am I doing this because I'm in awe of you? That's a great filter for decision-making. That's a great filter for making sure that I'm not doing that for my own gain and for getting you know. Put light and fire under my butt.
Speaker 2:So I actually start doing something. Yes, yes, well, cause, again I think that's the other. The fearful of the freeze is like, I mean all throughout scripture. It feels like there is this like calling to do something.
Speaker 2:And I think that is for, for, for everyone. That would would engage with scripture and read and see that the that the legacy of what it means to walk wise or to be um uh, in favor with God, is also tied to this right understanding of fear, and, and I don't I don't know if we have a good enough sense of that in the church today, and so I'm really thankful that you have written this and hopefully the others will pick it up as well. Help us a little bit as we kind of wind down some things. What are some of your thoughts on for folks that are hearing this, using this, how would you and we don't talk about this enough sometimes how would you want to see folks implement this? You're a youth minister writing for youth ministry people. Is this something you would take, like leadership students through? Would you encourage folks to make it the conversation point for their whole ministry for a season? How would you want to best utilize this?
Speaker 2:This concept of the fear of God, the fear of God in your study, in your study, Like you've written about it, worked about it. How would you want to help folks? Imagine take the decision tree away. Give us one less decision fatigue, Kate, yeah, how would you? We heard what you said. We like what you read. How would you want us to utilize it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean truly best principles. Yeah, truly, take the good stuff.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think so much of what I learned about the fear of God has just changed my perspective on God, so my viewpoint of the Lord, the way that I talk about the Lord, and so I think that has I mean just maybe personally, to explain how it's affected me that's changed how I have sermon prepped, you know it's. It's changed how I've talked about the Lord that it's not just about like love God, but it is also, but also, let's understand the, the reverence that we are to have before God, and how does that change our lives and our perspectives? Um, so I think it can affect the way that you sermon prep. I think it can affect the way that you think about, um, the curriculum that you're teaching. I think it can be utilized in small groups. I think it could be utilized as something that you're handing to parents and saying, hey, walk with your student through this idea. You walk through it.
Speaker 2:Walk with your student through it.
Speaker 1:So I think the fear of God is such an all-consuming as it is designed to be concept that should be the foundation for everything that we do, that I do think it can affect every aspect of what we do in ministry, from the way that we talk about God, the way that we talk about how we have a relationship with the Lord um, to how we're identifying some of the fears in our lives. We talk a lot about anxiety in student ministry, but saying not stopping there, but saying, okay, what's the root of that?
Speaker 1:Is there a lie that you're believing about the Lord Um when you're talking to a student about the struggles or the wrestlings that they're having in their life to say, hey, what are you believing about God in the midst of this, in the midst of this loss, or in the midst of this breakup, or in the midst of this, whatever, what are you believing about God? And it is wild the things that I have learned as I've started to ask that question that I'm like, oh, this goes so much deeper than just sadness about a breakup. This is that you're believing that God is not good. You're believing the lie of scarcity, that God is literally withholding something from you. Well, let me take you to scripture and teach you, show you where God is a generous God, that he provides for those who fear him. Literally, psalms talks so much about God provides for those who fear him. So what does that look like in you? So, anyway, I think it's permeated every aspect of my life and I think it can permeate every aspect of our ministries.
Speaker 2:Well and amen for the ways in which it may be the connective tissue that helps us get from what we're feeling to what we know to be faithful but now are experiencing as faithful.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the things that is really resonating in a season of grief is just how much like what, what are so. Lewis writes about that grief often feels like fear, because you're walking around in a certain kind of like feeling, a way that you are identifying what might actually be true. And I wonder, for some folks that are so impervious to it because we're either so numb or distracted that we don't know how to feel the feelings or we don't know what to do with them or place them. And I think, hearing your heart and I hope the other folks hear it as well, for the students that you will speak in council with this summer at camp that may be feeling overcome or frustrated or betrayed or bitter that there is a theological moment happening underneath the thing that they're describing or naming or feeling, and being able to connect those. You talked about it with our friend Amanda about anxiety and how that word is very popular but the root of it is very old and very important for what we talk about.
Speaker 1:Amen. Yeah, and what a gift that we have a God who made a way from the very beginning, in the very moment of sin, when we believe the lie, that our plan for our life could be better than God's, and we welcomed brokenness into the world and, along with that, death and grief and fear and shame and all the things. What a gift that we have a God who, from that very moment, was creating and working a way for redemption, like I just think. In the midst of all this, it reminds me of the simplicity of the gospel and the good news that Christ did come so that we might have life, and life abundantly.
Speaker 1:Not a life defined by the fear of other things, but a life defined by the fear of God, which is an abundant life on this side of eternity and on that side.
Speaker 2:Well, friend, thank you so much for coming to share, on the way out, any thoughts, words. We always love a little grab back at the end. Youth ministry in 2025, what are some of the things that you're thinking about, working on or imagining? In youth ministry that maybe you would want others to dream with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think one of our prayers-.
Speaker 2:We'll write it down. Yes, write it down.
Speaker 1:I will tell you that is a goal of 2025 is that everything gets written down so that that way, next year we're pulling out from the files, we're pulling out from the notes app on our phones and we're saying how can we make it better, how can we build on what?
Speaker 2:has been created.
Speaker 1:We got to stop reinventing the wheel and start taking what has worked well and start making it better, instead of continuing to just recreate something that is not great every time. So that's one thing I think in 2025 that we can all work on I'll work on.
Speaker 1:And the other piece of this that is our prayer for our student ministry is that we would, as leaders and as a student ministry, that we would understand that our students are not a group or a clique, but we are a ministry of students and to students. We are all ministers of the gospel of reconciliation and so empowering and equipping our students to be the ministers in their homes, on their teams and their places and one cool way that we're doing that is through allowing our students and training our students to become the decision encouragers or decision counselors. When other students make decisions for Christ, they're the ones who are getting the chance to help encourage and counsel them through that. So a really practical, cool thing that we're starting to do that I think others could do too.
Speaker 2:Love it. Well, friend, always good time talking with you. Kate Downing will post the socials and the hangouts below, but check it out. Fighting With Fear. It's available now everywhere that books are sold. So thank you so much, friend. We love you, such a joy.
Speaker 1:Ah, snap.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Adventure Booster Podcast. Fighting with Fear Becoming Fearful Unafraid by Kate Downing is now available. Check the links in the show notes below where you can pick up your copy of this six-session Bible study for teens. Video access is included Kate's teaching videos and other resources available. Check it out. It's a conversation point for us and we love sharing new offers with you. Follow subscribe rate review and we'll see you back next week.
