Youth Ministry is still Awe-some w/ Joseph Kellogg

Well well look who just sledded into town! Hi Joseph Kellogg! 

"Presence rises above parties every time."

Joseph traces how one ordinary moment in a youth ministry service became a lifetime of discipling teenagers—with humility, consistency, and deep trust in what God does when leaders simply show up.

We talk about Pre-iPhone youth ministry to the post-Christian reality: what’s actually changed (and what hasn’t)
We explore the changes in student ministry: from lock-ins and flyers to algorithms and anxiety, and why presence still beats parties every time: 

• Creating sustainable youth ministry rhythms  prevent burnout.
• Learning calendar competency (not just busyness)
• Real Sabbath, not “ministry-adjacent rest”
• Faithful presence in the in-between moments—ball games, car rides, late-night queso conversations
• Partnering with parents who grew up in youth group starts by asking them what they remember and what they imagine.
• How to honor what parents loved about their own youth ministry experiences
• Acts 2 as a youth ministry framework
• Start with the essentials. Build a balanced discipleship calendar. Design ministry that feeds students a full plate—not just sugar highs.
• For new and seasoned youth pastors alike
• New leaders: a playbook for pace, purpose, and longevity
• Veteran leaders: language for what your gut already knows—students are hungry

🎧 If you’re longing to lead youth ministry that produces fruit that remains, this conversation will steady you, challenge you, and remind you why you said yes in the first place.

Make sure to check the links below to sign up for either an essentials event coming to you in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Virginia, North Carolina, or for our preaching conference, The Experience, back in Nashville again this May.

Lifeway.com/essentials

Lifeway.com/experience

Chapters

• 0:14 Snow Day
• 3:31 Joseph’s Calling Story At Eleven
• 7:18 Camp Furnace And Call To A Generation
• 12:46 Pre iPhone Youth Ministry And Change
• 18:55 Why He’s Still Passionate After 25 Years
• 27:34 Parents, Post Christian Culture, And Memory
• 33:20 Creative Trends, Nostalgia, And What Still Works
• 39:22 Early Years Advice: Pace And Parents

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:14

Hey, and welcome back to another episode of the Youth Belletry Booster Podcast, hanging out in the garage with okay. Listen, sometimes, sometimes we bring in people for the freshness of our experience. Sometimes we bring in the sages from the lands far off from three blocks over. Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Joseph Kellogg, everybody. Yes, come on, brother. What up? Hey, man, how are you, sir? I'm doing great. Dude, it is so good to have you on the show. It's so good to have you with us. Thanks for making the long drive across 71st Street. 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01: 0:47

15 minutes.

SPEAKER_04: 0:48

You got us here, man. Yeah. Well, that's and that's not fair. There's a whole journey behind actually getting you here to Tulsa. And so we're gonna do a little, we're gonna do a little bit of prologue before we do podcasts. So so Joseph is here with us today. Uh finally got him in the garage. Uh, we've been friends online for a long time. We've been swimming in youth ministry circles for 15 years in different directions. We were trying to count the other day over breakfast, uh, just like we've all we've had touch points in Oklahoma and other places, uh, but we're now both back here. That's right. In Tulsa doing the thing. So uh Joseph, lead youth pastor for Victory Church, sir, founder of HYM, uh friend of the podcast, friend to youth ministers everywhere. We love it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:35

So thanks for being here, bud. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37

Dude, it's an honor, man. And I don't know when this is gonna drop, but like we we are a part of like Snowbaguedon. We know so I actually slid over here. I was like just a little boot skin sled. Yeah, I was whipping, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:51

Dude, you literally rolled up on your sled. No, that was good. That was good. It was uh no it so uh for those uh that's still enduring the winter storms here in January of 2026. Uh may all your power be restored and all your water be tepid and not frozen.

SPEAKER_05: 2:06

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04: 2:07

Uh because I know that some of our for Oklahoma, so for Oklahoma, we typically we we are Ice Mageddon. That is that is our claim to fame. Everybody else has snow, we have ice. Um, but it seems like this time we were the benefactor of many inches of dry powder. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21

Still, still powder outside.

SPEAKER_04: 2:23

Still powder, still doing it, still sledding doing it. If you hear kids thumping around, it's because they refuse to go back to school. That's right. Did you come over here today just to get away from the kids?

SPEAKER_01: 2:32

I you know, my kids are actually in school today, but yes. Oh, lucky dog. But uh, but yeah, our house, it was I'm like, it was ready, you know, just kids going in inside, outside, inside, outside. So we had to get the vacuum going out last night because you know, it it was like, all right, we're done.

SPEAKER_04: 2:49

You know, tracking gray water into the house.

SPEAKER_01: 2:52

Look like a warehouse, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 2:54

These tile floors, why are they so dirty? For sure. Love it, man. Love it. Well, man, we're glad to have you here. We're gonna be talking about a lot of things in youth ministry general, but one of the things that seems to be so shared across a lot of youth ministry leaders is some kind of sense or discernment of call. Now, that may be for something that happened at an early age or later in life, um, but to end up in youth ministry is a kind of particular function or role, or to use your word, assignment uh that doesn't just um happen because it seemed like the most lucrative or even sometimes the most exciting. Now, it may become exciting, uh, but my friend has been doing ministry for now counting on the decades side of things. Yeah. What, what, how did you end up in it? What keeps you in it? What what about the thing that is the thing that we share? That's so good.

SPEAKER_01: 3:44

First off, Zach, thank you for for uh letting me hang out in your garage. And uh on a on an amazing day here in Oklahoma, and thank you for all your years of uh creating conversations for youth pastors that we know are driving down the road, uh listening to this or or watching online and getting healthy in the gym. Come on, January crowd, come on now. That's right. Uh yeah, but my my kind of story would be you know, like connected a little bit to my parents. You know my parents got radically saved when I was a little kid, and that changed the direction of my life. And you know, we serve a generational God, He's the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And so I'm a benefactor of of my parents going first and committing their life to Jesus, which meant what? I was in spaces to encounter God. And so at 11 years old at a youth convention, uh in a morning session at that.

SPEAKER_04: 4:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:39

You know, you know this was a holy moment if it was a morning session.

SPEAKER_04: 4:42

When the Lord's awake, but you are not.

SPEAKER_01: 4:44

That's right, that's right. And so uh, so I had this very much, I couldn't articulate it then, but very much like an Isaiah 6 moment. Whom shall I send? I'm this 11-year-old kid at the time with these massive glasses, which weren't cool when I was growing up. Now they're all trendy. You're a hipster. But coke bottles are back, man. That's right. Yeah. When I was a kid, we were getting beat up for wearing those glasses. That's right, that's right. Um this is what we could afford. That's right. Um, so I have this moment with God that very much where I say yes to uh the call of ministry, didn't know what that meant, but it was full-time vocational ministry because all of us are called, all of us have an assignment. Uh, but for me, it was I'm gonna give my life to the local church. Now that was at 11. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 5:26

So teenage years start coming in and I'm the fullness of what that meant, 11 was yet to be discovered. But blessing is those that discern. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01: 5:34

And then I then I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit when I was 14, and I feel like my calling was commissioned, and and then I'm one of those kids that always say every youth pastor wish they had, like carrying their Bible to school. You want the good ones? Come on. Oh man, I'm talking raising money for missions, yeah, inviting friends. Like I was that, I I I just became, you know, that student and um fell in love with Jesus in a deeper way, preached my first sermon at 14. Come on. But still, I I was serving in kids' ministry, so I thought maybe I, you know, this is fun. I'm a little older than them. Yeah, I was teaching Sunday school with the felt board. I'm old enough to like rock the felt board.

SPEAKER_02: 6:12

It's like, hey boys, and girls in high school. And we're gonna put these three gentlemen up. This is a shattering about it to go, put a great fire befell them. Yeah, that's right. And here's the fourth man in the fire. Who is the fourth man in the fire?

SPEAKER_01: 6:26

Turn to your Bibles to know. Samson's like swole, you know. You're pushing the pillars over, just like bing, bing. Yep, yeah, come on, come on. So uh son of a kids minister.

SPEAKER_04: 6:35

So, dude, I am I am with you all the way.

SPEAKER_01: 6:38

So I I felt like, well, I'm I'm I I'm naturally connected to you know, kids. I'm a little older than them. I've a servant at a high level as a high school student, but at 18 years old, I go and intern at a summer camp, a youth camp. Six weeks.

SPEAKER_04: 6:52

Shout out to camps, by the way, because that is that is the the speaking of four men in the fire.

SPEAKER_01: 6:58

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04: 7:00

Camp is the furnace of church leadership.

SPEAKER_01: 7:03

Oh man. Uh you you'll you'll you'll be in the fire, but you probably won't have any, you know, there's not a lot of showering going on. It's a lot of showering, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:12

You know, you're looking for the force man. You're like, where are you, Lord?

SPEAKER_01: 7:15

Oh man. So yeah, intern at camp, six weeks of camp, yeah, and um outdoor tabernacle. I'm talking, you know, sweating for Jesus. Yeah. Uh and had a BO for the Blessed Ordinance. Come on, shout it out now. Always thought a great fundraiser. We had like the wooden pews. Like again, I'm dating myself. This is the this is in the 1900s. Yeah, come on, yeah. And so uh tell it, Uncle, tell it. Um everybody's like, he looks so cool. There's gray hair. Oh, there it is. Oh, yeah, there it is. Come on, Ankh, yeah. And so I have this moment, I'm watching students worship and I just begin to weep. And again, I'm just out of high school serving at this camp, six weeks in. So part of it's like, am I exhausted? Yeah, what and uh and just felt like the Lord prompting and speaking to me that you're called to this generation. Now, again, that that was over 25 years ago. So I generation, it's like I've gone through the millennials, I've gone through Gen Z and now I'm on Gen Alpha. You're like, wait a second, Lord. But yeah, there was um something happened, and I actually, you know, kind of have a conversation with the Lord, like, hey, I I think I'm supposed to do this, and and I'm I'm only 18. How am I called to to students? And then the Lord just reminded me how I had a passion to reach my friends, like like that calling. I I just think a lot of people think, well, I have to go off and I have to do this, this, and this, and then I can step into my calling, but then you rewind the tape and watch through scripture. Yeah, it's no, you're called now, you step into it now. Now there is training, there is some of that that you're doing to study, you know, study, and and um, you know, we also study ourselves to to know more of God and more about Him and theology. And but for me, 18 years old is when it when it hit. And then a year and a half later, two weeks before my 20th birthday, I became a youth pastor in Southside of Oklahoma City. And so I can say I was 19, but I I'm talking, I was I was knocking on 20's door. Come on. But there I was, but became a youth pastor south side of Oklahoma City, walking in my my calling, and that was um August 2001. So this August will be 25 years, you know. A lot of pizza.

SPEAKER_04: 9:21

A lot of pizza. Dude, uh congrats. Not everybody makes the silver anniversary. That's right. I'm gonna get you, we're gonna get you ringed up. We're gonna get you that's right. Not everybody makes not everybody not everybody makes a 25. Well, silver anniversary is the hey, uh ladies and gentlemen, if if your hair is turning a few shades of gray and silver, that's just salt and pepper, and that's just seasoning. Come on, come on. That's right. Uh you know, the Lord anoints and the Lord seasons. The Lord, the Lord calls it wisdom, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:48

Just crazy enough to stick in it. So, yeah, that that's a little bit of the Genesis story, if you could say.

SPEAKER_04: 9:54

Well, we're gonna have to do a deeper dive at another time because I do think there's some really interesting like chronicling of youth ministry history in those 20 years. Yeah. As somebody that started in 2007, 2008, uh, there is something that has moved through in a pre-cell phone age into a cell phone age, into a social media age, into a COVID age. Uh so Joseph, tell us a little bit. 25 years in, what keeps you still excited? Like, what's like, I mean, I I think there's a there's a there's a level of competency and proficiency that comes at 25 years, yeah. But ministry without competency is loose, but ministry without passion is doomed for burnout. Yeah. So, like, what keeps you passionate or excited about youth ministry as a project, at the church, at what you get to do, any of those levels?

SPEAKER_01: 10:41

I I think um and yes, I agree. I I've seen the the the time changing. You know, I I can you look back and watch some of these movies, you know, it's like uh you're like, wait, I was there in that time. Yeah, you know, and that pre uh that pre-iPhone, right? You know, um that that year that I started using.

SPEAKER_04: 11:03

Stranger Things only works because they have no phones.

SPEAKER_01: 11:06

That's right, that's right. That's right. There's a new documentary on Netflix now about this guy that like him and his buddies, um, it it's really great. I I don't know if I'm I'm uh recommending it or not, but I have recommended it. But uh him and his buddies uh go and like find like a an abandoned part of this mall, and they live in this mall for like four years. But it was pre-smartphone. Okay. And you see there were these these these artists, and you can see this freedom and this, you know, anyway. Yeah. So pre like the year I started youth ministry, um, the iPod came out that I think to me 10,000 smart. Not even, not even like that, you know. So I'm still rocking big CD cases, you know. Oh, dude, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 11:48

And so uh have you heard of a mini disc? Because the rich kids got them and I never did. Oh man. Mini CDs looking up.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

Yeah, yeah. But but also, uh, you know, yeah, we're rocking disposable cameras, which are now cool again.

SPEAKER_04: 12:02

Right, right. Sorry, that's sorry. That was my photography team. We'll we'll come, we'll come back to this later because that has got to be the blessing of 25 years, is like you're like, oh, I've seen this. Like I said, I know what to do again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:14

You have to think too, it was years before YouTube. Yeah. So I I I always say this to young youth pastors. I had to like get a word from the Bible. I couldn't like go YouTube someone's sermon. Right. And we were we were years away from something called Chat GPT. Yeah. Uh it was just, you know, oh man. So I how am I like to me? I I I was asked that question one time. A guy was like, hey, why you know you're still in youth ministry? And this was probably like year 19, 20 or so. And he's like, why? And I said, I you know what? I still love the moment that students get it, like that light bulb clip. And we know the thing about stats are interesting. Um they've gone up and down over the years, and I'm sure Lifewite can help us with this. Uh, or or someone, you know, but it's back in the day, it was like 85% or so of people that give their life to Jesus do so under the age of 18. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 13:04

That I don't know what the exact number is now, but the recent study still held that threshold somewhere between 60 something and 70%. Like it's a it's a big deal. Like can conversion of a belief system or a life trajectory happens well before 18, 19 years old. It's a huge, it's huge.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

And so that stat's gone up and down, but I've always seen that as like, man, what an advantage. We're yeah in youth ministry, we're at the epicenter. Yeah. And I do think if a church if a kid's raised in church in kids' ministry, they get to start learning foundations, they get to start learning biblical narratives and stories. But youth ministry to me is the place where they encounter. Yeah. And so I think I still love having those moments. I would say the older version of me, I I, you know, I still will, I'll I'll sneak up there for a fast song every once in a while and we'll, you know, and the the songs off a little bit. The songs have changed over the years. You know, we're saying goodbye to yesterday. Yeah, yeah. And uh, when I was it we we used to be turning our morning into dancing. Yeah. And so, um, but it's and and seeing yes. Either way. Sweet bass lips. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, the great. So it's like the songs have changed, but there's always that moment. But I would say the older version of me does find myself sometimes um as I still travel and speak at camps, kind of stepping back and and just being it all and to see that passion and and go, this it's it's beautiful when they get it. And you and I both know they're gonna they're gonna face some hard times. Yep, but I also know, you know, I always use Johnny. Poor Johnny. It's my illustration. He's the guy, Johnny's out there.

SPEAKER_04: 14:35

There's a John use pastor somewhere using Joey. That's right. In your defense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:40

And so always, I remember one time our our our staff that I was working, he was like, man, Johnny's been through it, ups and downs. So I just to me his parents got divorced eight times. And so I'm like, you know, that moment that Johnny receives Christ, yeah, and and he's the first Christian in his family, and and which is that is way more normal now because we're in a post-Christian culture. Johnny receives Christ and he begins to walk into the word and finds biblical community. And next thing you know, that the way the way he looks for his spouse is different. Yeah, the way he raises his kids is different. His kids won't even know some of the pain that Johnny went through. Yeah. So to me, to be a part of that part of it, um, I I've even had moments kind of getting back in the trench the way I am now that are like, man, I don't know, I'm getting older. And then I think I told you this when we were we were having breakfast. Like Nick Saban became the head coach at Alabama at 55 years old. And no one's like, oh man, he's getting old. Yeah. I think he rattles off with like six national championships. And so I just when it comes to coaches, teachers, and somehow in youth ministry, we're like, oh, you know, yeah, um, it it's you're getting a little old. I think passion, yeah, um, man, I I haven't lost that because I think I still see those moments where students get it.

SPEAKER_04: 15:56

Come on.

SPEAKER_01: 15:57

And I'm excited to see that. And now I've been in it long enough to I can go, I know it works.

SPEAKER_04: 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:02

If you lean in, yeah, if you go on this trip, if you if you spend the money and go to camp, if it's almost like a formula, if you do these things and you truly lean in, I've now got to see the students that are now, you know, in ministry or in uh a success in life and their kids are faithfully serving Jesus. So now, you know, I think what Steve Jobs says, it's hard to connect the dots, um, you know, looking forward, yeah, yeah. But it's when you look back. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04: 16:30

And so now the trail of breadcrumbs is there, man. The breadcrumbs are there.

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

And so I look back and you're like, yes, yes, absolutely. Yes, yes. And so that I think gets me more fired up because I know what's possible. Now it's frustrating too. It's like when you have multiple kids, you kind of become impatient with the younger ones where you're like, why aren't you getting this? That's right. And then you have moments you're like, they're gonna get it. You can talk whatever you want, you know, it's gonna happen. That's right. So, anyway, that was a long dissertation to be like, I think I'm still passionate because I I love it when students have that moment where they truly know who they are in Christ and they live that life out.

SPEAKER_04: 17:03

But I think it's important to hear, man, I'm just taken with I mean, there's been in some of the conversations we've had with some other youth ministry encouragers, coaches, teachers, professors about how do we instill awe, not how do we instill wonder into our teenagers. But what I heard you say that I think is so important for others to hear is that there's still awe left in you. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things the youth ministry is is a dangerous proposition when we see what we do as trying to like inject or mold or or project what this next generation needs instead of being participant enough to stand in awe of what God is doing. And that's powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 17:46

Well, I think too, it's like we know all, and again, everyone listening, there are so many ministries, some some like organizations, their whole you know, ideas about data and research, and I'm thankful for all that.

SPEAKER_05: 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

But again, like I said, I've walked through multiple generations now when it comes to like, you know, I say generations like millennials and you know, um, Gen Z. And even I remember a buddy of mine, uh, Terry Partman, who's I think a brilliant mind in youth ministry, us talking about when we were wrestling through the conversations about Gen Z, they were like, we're already too late. Like by the time that research comes, we're like, oh, this is how we reach them. Like, there's still stuff being released, but most youth ministries right now, like maybe your juniors and seniors are Gen Z. The rest of them are Gen Alpha. Yeah. I I all that research, all that stuff, great, good. I'm I'm a student of it. I want to learn, I want to be a student of youth ministry. But at the same time, when you walk in proximity with students, yeah, the same pains are the same. Yeah, yeah. The same thing. And so I think that's you know, when you're walking with them in the pain and and also the gains, you actually do have a passion and appreciation and know that every Wednesday matters or every Sunday night or Monday, whenever you gather, you're like, this matters, you know. Johnny's life can be changed forever, you know. Uh, and one day he's gonna have a moment and sweep his leg, Johnny. And so, but but then you know, sorry.

SPEAKER_04: 19:12

Again, it was relevant the first time, and then it's come back around because it's relevant again. Yes, come on, yeah. I I knew that we had made full circle a couple years ago when again, Netflix karate kid show had made its way back, has made his way back into camp themes again. Amazing, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_01: 19:29

Yeah, the theme, yeah, it's so funny. I I think that's what's what's hard too is when you're in creative meetings, yeah, and there's things that you know works, yeah, and then you have people say, Oh, I don't know about that. And you're like, ah, no, this works. And the opposite is true.

SPEAKER_04: 19:41

Where it's middle school kids, ninjas are a hit. Oh, that's right. Sorry guys, I I know, I know that this is cooler, but I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_01: 19:49

Well, the other is true too. There's moments I think where I'm in meetings where I'm talking and they're like, Yeah, this great idea. And you're like, Yeah, it sounds really like I'm just letting you know, that's a train wreck. We tried, you know, and Now again, I'm not I'm not want to be that guy that's like always like oh back in the day. Yeah. But I it's more of like, let me teach some of the things we learn. Hey, try it on maybe a different way. But um but students are the same. That they and to be honest with you, there's actually a more desperate need today than ever for that community. And there's a group of parents that the ones that actually went to youth group, they want their kid to experience what they experience. Yeah. And I'm like, well, first off, there weren't a lot of cameras when I'm like rant, you know, ramping the church van off huge speed bumps.

SPEAKER_03: 20:34

And kids are like, the reliability policies have uh changed.

SPEAKER_01: 20:38

Yeah, I wish there were cameras back. Like there's a couple of moments that I'm like, if we would have had this, it would have gone viral. Yeah. But you're like, it only lives in our minds. We have disposed the disposables. That's right.

SPEAKER_04: 20:48

That's right. They never got developed. Yeah. But but uh but again, uh, so but the language of youth ministry becoming particularly important um for a generation of folks whose whose parents may have known church through the lens of youth group. I think that is something. I mean, youth ministry as a thing, call it the late 70s and 80s, the the youth young uh the young life, youth for Christ boom of stuff. But there is something about that late 90s, again, the one through 2010, 2015, youth ministry, youth ministry pre-social media, cell phone, but youth ministry pre-social media that a lot of millennial and xennial parents grew up in. Yeah, and they may have come back to church for kids in youth ministry. And so they are looking or they have eyes on a particular uh like image. Like there's an imagination for what youth ministry is because of what they experienced. And so I think some of the wrestling with what do we do, how do we make it important, how do we make it significant, we're not just wrestling with like connecting it with to the teenager, but giving some understanding to the parents that were like, no, this was like a fun thing that we did. No, we actually, your student and we want to engage even more deeply in ways and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 22:05

And I would say, too, because I you might be a young youth pastor listening, you're like, Cool, bro, I didn't live that life. I I was a toddler.

SPEAKER_04: 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:12

And um I would say go connect to some of your parents that that were a part of Vibrate Youth Ministries.

SPEAKER_04: 22:20

What's that image they're holding on to? There's something about it. Oh, there is, there is.

SPEAKER_01: 22:24

And it's funny because it's like they want their kid to like go rough it in that church van. You're like, yeah, we didn't know if that church van was gonna be able to make it. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 22:31

But they actually are cool with you going on a mission trip where the living conditions were safe, but sketch. Like it was like a cot and a peanut butter sandwich. They're actually like, no, I wanted that for them.

SPEAKER_01: 22:41

Well, because it formed them. Yeah, and I I really do think that there's something you've heard that's this kind of trend going around. There's different communities across America. They're like getting bringing landlines back.

SPEAKER_04: 22:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:53

And they're like, and a part of it is, hey, this is safe. Yeah, yeah. And and I lived in the landline era, I know. Um, but it's one of those things of it's it really is like parents. What are they trying to do? They're trying to go, wait, who am I today? Is there's so many things that are part of that, but let's let's go deep. Like, sounds like Jewish tradition, and going, hey, these are things we want to pass down to our kids. Yeah. And I think there are Christian parents that are going, hey, I want this for my kid. And then you have the youth pastor, it's like, oh, we're we're doing this trendy thing, and kids are like, ah, cool, but that's something we could have a whole nother dialogue about of, and I'm thankful for LED screens. I'm not, I'm thankful for lights. And I remember the early youth ministry days, we just wanted to be cool like that. But now there's this like kids were like, No, I actually just want church.

SPEAKER_04: 23:41

Well, the turn the lights on. We want we want the church to look like church. Yeah, and that that is something uh we are gonna pin this for a future conversation because there is some interesting, and I'll I'll share it when when Aaron comes to share um life way research about the move to church looking more like for better or for worse, yeah, church looks like church. Yeah. And so to say to say a hot take uh that seeker sensitive is dead and sacred's on the rise. And so like that's one of those, like I mean, we see it in like a young conservative family might be as likely to join the Catholic Church or or a Bible church. Yeah. Um, because for them, they they whatever place feeds the like again. I had an idea of a spiritual itch that I want my family to I I want them to inherit this kind of good faith or good religion or or good Christianity, it looks like a certain thing. And that's so anyway. No, it's right. Okay, I agree with you. But we have you though, for wisdom for this episode for our younger youth ministers. If you were in your first couple years now, and some of this you're you're coaching and working with folks on the regular, um what do you what do you what do you tell folks in their first uh two to four, three to five years of like what are what are some things you either have heard that you would want us to spread wider, or what are some things you want to like like point out for folks that are relatively new, maybe don't have the history of the legacy, and this is the first go-around they've had with Jinko jeans or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 25:09

Dude, it is all those trends are coming. Kids are walking around youth ministry, goth, and I'm like, whoa. Like I seriously skate park?

SPEAKER_04: 25:17

We have skate park again? Uh who's gonna babysit your Tamagotchi? Does that are we doing this? We're doing this.

SPEAKER_01: 25:23

I have moments that I'm like, did I just get out of DeLorean and I'm back? It's back because but there's a there's a there was something special about that season, too. That I was, you know, because there was an era of youth manager who's like, no more clicks. And I had the philosophy that was like, make the clicks larger. Yeah, if you if that's your friend group and that's your thing, man, you're welcome here. Make it bigger.

SPEAKER_03: 25:44

Have the whole marching band, 100%. Like have all of choir. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

Everyone, you know, dye your hair. It's cool. Um, but I was gonna say to me, you know, Doug Field's first two years, now I'm just kidding. It really is good.

SPEAKER_04: 25:56

I like but it's seminal, but Doug, if you're listening, we're still waiting on year three through five.

SPEAKER_01: 26:01

That's right. Yeah. Um, but I I would say, you know, my first few years, I was just at first, I was a single youth pastor when I first I first became a youth pastor, and I I documented um my first three months. I would I was doing these like I wish I would have played. Like video journals or like diaries? It was like it was like in my journal. Okay, but I but I was writing like a tweet. I would pay. I would pay. I was writing like a tweet before a tweet. It was just like today, yeah you know, I like today would be like, hey, Wednesday, the date, and like went and did podcasts with Zach, had you service. So it's it was literally like preach the lights out, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, but it was like seriously, two sentences, but I get to see kind of my like I'm at junior high basketball games, I'm at volleyball. Like, it is like you can see this. Yeah, I'm at someone's house, we're eating out. Dude, we ate a lot of chilies back then. Like, I I look back and go, how these kids, how could they afford it?

SPEAKER_04: 26:56

Hold on. This this is only for the podcast audience. Sorry, you were walking into something that you didn't know. Um, okay, so hard cut. Joseph Kellogg, what is your triple play at Chili's? Sorry, this has come up more than one time because there there is like there is a fandom for this. And so you're going to Chili's, me and you at the airport. I'm like, buddy, I'm buying triple dippers. What are you picking?

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

Oh man, I'm always gonna get wings, I'm always gonna get that queso, and then the sliders, you know. I'm saying the uh or the little uh what is the is it the egg girls?

SPEAKER_04: 27:31

Yeah, I was like, buddy, if you're not getting egg girls, we can't share. So dude, we ate so much chilies 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:38

But you know, this is what I would I would bring kids out um and just get chips and salsa and queso like four o'clock in the afternoon. I couldn't afford to buy you dinner. Right, right, right. Um, but we are doing discipleship over that queso.

SPEAKER_04: 27:48

Dude, that's bottomless soda, bottomless chips. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

I'm walking out there like 12 bucks, you know, then turning in that receipt for that reimbursement. Stretching that, stretching that budget. Yeah, oh man, it was thin. But yeah, I I look back and I was like, I would say, um, if I could go back in time, you know, uh, as Cher would say, if I can turn back, um, if I could do that, I I would say slow down. And what I mean by that is I I think I had this, and and what's wild is I was a youth ministry pre-social media, but I still saw what other ministries were doing, and I had this passion to to build a strong, vibrant youth ministry, and and I didn't pace myself well. And so I was drinking Mountain Dews like crazy, uh, we're rocking this thing out. Uh, but I would say slow down. And then the other thing I would probably tell myself, even you know, to to go back is that um, you know, I figure this out later on, but just how important parent relationship was and and connecting them. I think I saw them as the enemy. Again, I'm 20 years old, 21 years old. I just want their student to encounter the presence of Jesus. And they'd be at the door going, come on. You know, and I wrap it up. That's right. But I'm over here going, I don't know. I I, you know, I'm there, you don't want their kid, but they're like, well, no, they have school, they have practice tomorrow, like tomorrow's gonna be a long day. So I think I would have engaged parents differently in my first for my first couple years. Um, maybe did like kind of what we said earlier, like sat down with more parents, like, hey, what are you what are you looking for? Like, what's your ideal youth ministry? We're not gonna meet everyone's needs. It's it's you know, it's not a buffet that you get to pick whatever, but it's your kids, you got something to do with that.

SPEAKER_04: 29:28

What are some of the what are some of the things that this is not goods and services sold? This is partnership.

SPEAKER_01: 29:32

Yeah, so I think I would have early on slowed down, had a better pace, and then I would say uh probably partner with parents, yeah, a little more unique. I I just sit in Sabbath well, I didn't rest well. Now I look back and I look at some of youth pastors, I'm like, y'all need to get with it. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, like there is word for quiet.

SPEAKER_04: 29:50

My wholesale advice. I mean, this is because I do I do think there is this unique like tension of like hear us say, like, you have to work hard. Ministry is hard work.

SPEAKER_01: 29:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:59

But ministry, ministry, sorry, let me say it this way ministry is heavy work, it's not hard work, but you got to do the work.

SPEAKER_01: 30:06

No, you're right.

SPEAKER_04: 30:07

And I think that's why like the emphasis on rest is so important because it is heavy. It's people and relationships and emotions, it's disappointments, it's it's expectations. Yeah. Um, but like we're not, we're not laying, we're not laying slab, we're not, we're not, we're not hiding siding. But but there is an equity to it, and you've got to put the energy into it if you're hoping to see like youth ministry is phone calls and copy conversations. It is it is chilies, chips, yeah. It's going to ball games, it's going to ball games, it's showing up, it's being around, and like that's what carries you Sunday to Sunday. Like it is not, it is the time in between is what carries over into the next week. And you have to put that time in and have enough rest that you can show up ready. Yeah. And that's I wish it was, I wish it wasn't a formula, but it kind of is at some level.

SPEAKER_01: 30:50

Well, I and I think it all goes together for me. It's like I I learned, I call it now calendar competency. I think me working my calendar, I I started figuring that out a few years in, going like, you know, Michael Hyatt says what gets on the calendar gets it done.

SPEAKER_04: 31:02

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

And so I I became a little more efficient in how I led myself, but but having that pace and that rhythm, and yes, there's a theology of the Sabbath, but there's also a theology of work.

SPEAKER_04: 31:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:11

Uh it's work and risk. And youth ministry, I I think this this was early on in youth ministry. I compared myself with other departments. And I'm like, we're the only ones working out here. Oh, yeah, yeah. And what it was was it looked that way. I'm also not the one that's doing all the funerals. I'm not doing all the uh but youth ministry, the the group that we are called to are very active. Yeah. So guess what? You're going to a basketball game on a Tuesday night. Guess what? You're going to a football game on a, you know, guess what? You're if you're going to a uh you know a choir concert or a or a play, because that's where the students are. Yeah. And I think for for youth pastors to think, well, I could just work my nine to five and get in the office. Then you're gonna ultimately get that result. Uh, you know, to me, if you want second mile results, you have to have second mile effort. Come on, yeah. But that rhythm of rest, I I just think I didn't I didn't have in my first year of marriage, my wife would have been like, Whoa, I didn't know I signed up for this. Uh and in in the sense of me finding that. And so it's taking time, uh, but also knowing that rest is different because some people's like, well, I you know, I didn't get a day off this week, right? And I always go, what'd you do with your what'd you do on Monday night from from six to ten? Oh, well, I binge watch this nefitch. Oh, I'm like, wait, you you blame the church, and we have all this stuff going on, or you're like, no, you're not managing your margins well. And I think that's something too. I'm talking when it comes to content, when it comes to dude, I'll pre-write post, you know. Um, my my 23rd wedding anniversary is coming up this week. Congrats. And uh, I already took the margin, already have the my Instagram post ready. I already wrote. Pre-rote my but I took advantage, like I know it's silly, but I'm like, that's managing my margins. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna do this now. Come on, you know, uh, it's that the whole statement I'd have mentored say to me, do today what others won't, so you can do tomorrow what others can't. And so if I see some guy playing golf, you're like, well, they had to do a lot of work to go out, like that hobby time to have that rest. Because the worst thing is when you decide, like, well, I need I need to have some recreation, but you didn't get your work done. Yeah, the recreation's not as fun because you're like, oh man, you know, all of us had a round of golf turn into like stress.

SPEAKER_04: 33:26

To turn Saturday night date night into finish sermon night is disingenuous for you and your significant other. Yes, yeah. Well, but I think that would be a good thing. So those will be a couple things. The language of pace is so important because, and again, some of this you'll have to adjust as you uh get better at some of what we do. I think we talked about this over breakfast. Like uh the guys that are still spending the same amount of time to write sermons now that they did the first two years, like some of it should take you less time. You should pick up margin as you get better at curriculum planning or sermon writing or equipping leaders. Like it shouldn't feel like in year four, seven, ten. Yeah. Like it's the first time you ever did it. And so there should be as your life changes and maybe kids are involved or other responsibilities, new hobbies. Yeah. Hopefully, you picked up some margin along the way through some competency and proficiency that you realize that, like, oh, I went to the game, but I didn't have to stay for the whole game because I was seen and I spent halftime where I was supposed to, and I did the third quarter dip, and that's where I got to be back home to tuck the kids in for bed. And I get some of those things, like they're just learned behaviors and you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01: 34:33

And learning, you know, because I I have four kids, you know, my wife and I, so I have two now in college, one in high school, and then and then I have a son in elementary school, so I have three daughters and a son. And it's funny, I I I was playing some really good golf till my oldest daughter got like five. Sure, sure, because we started doing other activities. And I think that's learning that every everything you say yes to, you're saying no to something. Come on. Yeah, and everything you're saying no to, you're saying yes to something. And so if you look at it high-level leaders, um, they do have hobbies, they do have some things, but like I I stopped playing fantasy football years ago. Yeah, nothing wrong with fantasy football, but that was just another decision of getting my starting lineup in that I just didn't want to make anymore. Yeah, and so it's as I I can no longer kick your butt in Halo.

SPEAKER_04: 35:15

That's right. I used to, I dude, I used to do Sydney Pro, but no longer. I now play a lot of Switch games. That's right. Now, Mario Kart, call me.

SPEAKER_01: 35:22

Yeah, you still got it. Oh, that's you're right. Oh, yeah, my son and I we were trying to do uh on the Switch playing uh like 2K. Yeah, I'm horrible at it. I'm like, what happened?

SPEAKER_04: 35:31

You're like all thumbs. You're like, what's this? Is it Madden? What's going on?

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

Techmo Super Bowl. Right. Um but yeah, for me, it's it's I think learning that and seeing it as a as a blessing and having gratitude. Listen, my life is more full. Yeah, and I love even that statement. It's not that I'm more busy, my life's more full. Yeah, but for it for me to to be able to thrive in this, come on, my pace matters, yeah, my rest matters. You know, my wife and I are gonna go on a weekend getaway for anniversary, like those kind of things, you know they're coming. If you know on the calendar, like, hey, summer's crazy in youth ministry.

SPEAKER_04: 36:04

If your summer's not crazy in youth industry, no denying it, but you should you show you knew that. Like it wasn't like it shouldn't, it shouldn't surprise you. Like people, you know, it's it's summer. Well, what did you think was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01: 36:13

If I don't walk by your car and see like some fun noodles or something like you know, like some basketball shorts, like if your car doesn't look like summer, I don't know if your your youth ministry is. You were ready, yeah. You were ready. You were ready, yeah, yeah. But but summer's always like that crazy, awesome, so many memories, but but it's knowing like, hey, when's my vacation at the end of the summer? When's and it's like learning those rhythms and those paces, you know. I think when I early got in youth ministry, I didn't understand all those. And so now I'm telling my calendar, you know, what to do instead of my calendar telling me what to do. So yeah, that would be some of the things.

SPEAKER_04: 36:48

Okay, one more little bit. Uh, and I think this is just kind of some wisdom for those engaged in ministry now. It's a new year, uh, 2026. Um, we're we're talking about a lot of things uh as ministry is playing out for another calendar in front of us. If you were gonna give some wisdom, what do you feel like some people today in your work of coaching, working, leading, doing, what are some folks overemphasizing that they shouldn't? And what are they underemphasizing that they should bring up to bring up to level? Like where where if you were gonna help balance the scale, even the pace for folks, where where are you seeing the pockets of like, man, I think some of y'all are overcooking it. And then for other folks, it's like, I think you're neglecting the thing that actually might be the most important.

SPEAKER_01: 37:31

I I think, and it it's gonna kind of come full circle from a conversation we were having earlier, is I I think we still over-emphasize. We did it 20 years ago as well. I I still think we over-emphasize the event, the party.

SPEAKER_05: 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:45

Um, it's cool. Like kids, kids will come. Yeah, it's like we over-emphasize.

SPEAKER_04: 37:49

Kids plan them, kids show up to them. Oh, yeah. But that that does not, that's not the end goal.

SPEAKER_01: 37:54

But I think the the the I uh uh kind of a way to say it is like I think we overemphasize the party and we underemphasize the presence. And it goes back to what are students really craving. And we know this churches try their best to throw parties, yeah, but they're not as cool as the world's parties. Sure. Um, there's different substances in the world's parties that I think make some of them better. Sure. Um, we have we have energy drinks that's as close as we can get in youth ministry.

SPEAKER_04: 38:18

Like, you know, we call it Hulk Punch. It's when you put monster in Kool-Aid, it's Hulk Punch.

SPEAKER_01: 38:22

Oh man, you have some uh, you know, it's fit or seventh grade boy like hang up. I know I had a friend who was like, bro, junior high boys are with everything in youth ministry. It's like they they just will break stuff. It's but then I'm gonna wired for it. I was I was that too. Um, but I I was gonna say, I I think, and then I I would say too, is I think we overemphasize, I man, I love social media. It's it's a way to tell stories, yeah. Um and it's a way to platform the God story. But I just think maybe in a in a youth pastor's work week, they're like, oh man, I gotta make sure that this social, this social, this social. And if you're to do time like a time allotment and you're like, well, how many times how much did I spend time with students? And so how can I let give social maybe away to students?

SPEAKER_05: 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:08

And so even I I still think we're in the same dilemma that we've been in for years, even to the point of scripture of saying, hey, your responsibility is equip the saints to the work of the ministry. Yeah, I still think that we have hero mentality. Yeah, I think youth pastors want to be that like uh and like oh I can do it better and faster. Yeah. And I I think that we're under, you know, uh emphasizing uh having students at the table, having them be a part of shaping your youth ministry, yeah, and creating space. I I talk to youth pastors all the time. Hey, did you give an opportunity for students to respond to Jesus? Oh man, you know, I'm like, I don't care if you have 20 or or 200, you have to create space for them to say yes.

SPEAKER_05: 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:47

So emphasize that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life in a world that is trying to give them other options. Yeah. And so I think, and then creating space for them to hear from the Lord. You know, tonight we're recording this on a Wednesday. So we have you. Ministry tonight, and uh you know, we're we're doing a a two-week uh a two-week series called Goodbye Yesterday. The first week was about um Elijah burning, uh Elijah calling Elisha and Elisha burning his plows. And and so we kind of said, like, what are the plows that you need to burn? And kids wrote them down, and it was like fear, um, you know, lust, all those things. We actually got to do kind of our own data, you know, research on our students. Like, and they're carrying a lot of stuff. And then this week is like, well, then you have this moment of double portion that what are you picking up? What are you? And so tonight we're creating space because there's a moment in that text where uh you know Elijah's like, what do you want from me? And he's like, Yeah, I want to double portion of what you got. And he says this statement, you've asked a difficult thing. And so tonight we're giving space for students to ask a difficult thing. What's the thing that you want God to do? That only He can do. But again, that's creating space for them to have a moment with the Lord that hopefully gives energy uh to their purpose and and and kind of this fuel for that. And I just think a lot of times we don't think with the end in mind in youth ministry. Think about it. The opener was killer. Yeah, and hey, have you planned what the response time? Oh man, we'll get there. We'll get there, yeah. And so I think I think it's still something that's happening.

SPEAKER_04: 41:16

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:16

Alter, and it's like blank. Oh, just and it's funny, we'll wing it. No, seriously, but and that's what we've done. And we've we've we that's why we don't have great pathways for students, and how are we helping them walk this Jesus thing out? So I think if you were to look at your work week, what are you putting your energy into? And then asking yourself, like, what where's you know, where's your ROI, your kingdom ROI on that? Yeah, again, I'm not saying it's it's it's both in. It's not, you know, no, I heard him, no more social media. No, I'm not saying that. Yeah, you so like, hey, do events, like there's something about that that gets students in, create invite moments. Yeah, but just when you look and you and you kind of look at your 2026, and I would even do this back in the day, I would color coordinate like sermon series. Like, are we just all kind of topical? Yeah, are we actually helping students know what it looks like to pray? Do they know why we worship? Yeah, and so what's that look like? How are you creating? I always think about like a uh cafeteria, the old school cat, you know, you had the the for the square pizza, which was the best, by the way. Yeah, um, and then you had like, you know, you got your your your corn over here, your spot for your chocolate milk. And I think out youth ministry is like a like, man, what what's the what's that plate look like? And is it all just stacked up on one thing, or is there kind of a balanced meal that you're presenting for students so that they can live a life that's that's a healthy, vibrant life for Jesus? So that was a little dissertation sermon kind of but yeah, I think there's a tension that we have to manage.

SPEAKER_04: 42:38

But it's a healthiness, and I think it's one of those, it it's the the role to shepherd, whether whether your title is pastor, minister, or director, the the role of shepherd, caretaker, leader is to be someone that sets that agenda, whether it's in content or community event, calendar, organization, to be mindful, not just of what we hope they get, but what we think they really need. And I think that is one of the things that I would share of 20 years of youth ministry history, that there is something happening right now where students are legitimately hungry.

SPEAKER_01: 43:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 43:13

They are legitimately, legitimately hungry, and you need to be mindful of what they're hungry for. And I think some of the tension that we feel is that we're feeding them maybe out of the image of what we had in ministry, yeah, instead of a deep understanding of where they're at, of what they're dropping and what they're needing and what they're picking up, what they're feasting on. Uh and that's gotta, it's gotta guide us. It's gotta guide us in the work that we're doing, it's gotta guide us in the rhythm of our week, and it's gotta guide us in the years that we serve together. So, amen.

SPEAKER_01: 43:43

It's interesting too. You've heard this a hundred times, so have I. If you were to ask, like, what do you remember about youth ministry? No one's ever gonna say, Man, my pastor's sermon. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_04: 43:56

With all with all due respect, with all respect because I had a good one too. Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01: 44:00

You're like, wait, that illustration was rad. It was cool.

SPEAKER_04: 44:03

Yeah, but what they do remember is something about like rocks and rivers, I forget.

unknown: 44:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 44:07

He was on a ladder, but it's like there were two, two ladders. That's right. That's so two, 20 to 25. Um, but I was gonna say, it's like they they don't remember, but they remember those moments.

SPEAKER_05: 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

And always say, to me, if you want like a well, well, all right, Joseph, where do I start? Acts 2, 42 through 47 to me is the the template, the archetype for church and youth ministry. What they do, they devote themselves to the word. Yeah, they worshiped, they shared everything they had, they ate some food, all right? So you can have some. Come on, you're welcome. Come on, yeah. And so it's like in a square if you can. That's right. And then at the end of that, it's in the Lord added to their number. And it's like, wait, uh, there's all these, you know, again, we're on a podcast. There's all these podcasts, there's all these conferences. You have a conference, I have a conference, yeah. Like all these things, um, books and and all these resources. But Acts 2, 42 through 47, if you're to look at that and make that your checklist on how to do youth ministry. I just think that, man, it's not just gonna please God, but you're gonna see fruit and fruit that remains.

SPEAKER_04: 45:02

It's good, man. Joseph, thanks for being with us. Uh, we're gonna see you back again soon because we love our time together. So thank you so much for the being with the folks. Uh or for everybody else listening. We'll see you back next week on the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast as we talk about what it's like to be new with some new rhythms for you.

SPEAKER_00: 45:16

Let's go. Snap.

SPEAKER_04: 45:28

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast. You can check it out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube. Make sure to check the links below to sign up for either an essentials event coming to you in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Virginia, North Carolina, or for our preaching conference, The Experience, back in Nashville again this May 4th, 5th, and 6th. If you want to teach and preach and grow in the craft and the task of doing so, check it out May 4th, 5th, 6th. It's experiential, it's fun, and it's only for exclusive few. All right, we'll see you back next week.