Youth Ministry Success Means Maturity w/ Dr. Jason Engle

What if we've been measuring youth ministry by the wrong scoreboard?

Attendance matters. Camp decisions matter. Great programming matters. But Jesus didn't commission us to create busy ministries—He commissioned us to make disciples.

Recorded live at SBC 2026, Zac Workun sits down with Dr. Jason Engle to explore one of the most important conversations every youth pastor needs to have: What does spiritual maturity actually look like?

Drawing from the Great Commission and Colossians 1:28, Jason argues that the true aim of youth ministry isn't simply activity, engagement, or even decisions—it's helping students become mature in Christ.

Together we unpack:

• Why spiritual maturity should become the primary metric for youth ministry
• How Paul's prayers reveal a biblical vision for discipleship
• The difference between alignment and attunement in spiritual formation
• Why students often open up more side-by-side than face-to-face
• How teaching extends far beyond a sermon
• Why fun and theological depth are never enemies
• How to disciple teenagers in an age dominated by distraction
• Practical ways to cultivate margin, abiding, and spiritual disciplines
• Why students shouldn't graduate dependent on youth ministry—but equipped to pursue Jesus on their own

One of the most memorable moments comes when Jason shares the story of a student he believed wasn't listening, only to discover years later that God had been working beneath the surface all along.

If you've ever wondered whether your ministry is making a lasting difference, this conversation offers both biblical clarity and tremendous encouragement.

Key Scriptures

• Matthew 28:18–20
• Colossians 1:28–29
• Ephesians 1:15–23
• John 15
• Hebrews 12:1–2

Memorable Quotes

"The goal isn't students who depend on the ministry. It's students who know how to pursue Christ when the ministry is gone."

"You can't microwave spiritual formation."

"Spiritual maturity isn't a destination—it's a trajectory."

"Students don't just need to hear about abiding. They need to practice abiding."

Transcript

Live At SBC And Golf Talk

Zac Workun 0:06

Hey, we're back with another episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast hanging out live at SBC 2026 with all of our friends. I'm a special guest today. I mean this this is always fun because we blur the lines, right? Like this is one of those, so uh Dr. Jason Engle, thank you for joining us today. Or Jason to the rest of the people. I just told you we're an SBC, so it's Jason. I get it, I get it, but but not everybody named Jason grades my papers. So thank you so much for being both professor and friend hanging out today, man. Yeah, a little seminary summer today and a booster. We're good, we're good. Uh Dr. Ingle, we're we're talking about a lot of things this summer related to some like big reflections on youth ministry, and we're gonna have a conversation about maturity in a little bit. Um, but I I got we gotta talk proud dad moments or whatever because because your your son slinging some golf gloves. We shoot him well, yeah.

Jason Engle 0:53

Yeah, so we played baseball uh all the way up until high school and uh kind of broke my heart a little bit when he had said uh I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna you know throw up the cleats. So uh you know he's competitive. I knew he would do something, and he bounced around from idea to idea, and he just mentioned one day, he said, Hey, uh, what if I play golf? I was like, that's the best idea you've ever had. That's the forever game. That's exactly right. I said we can do that the rest of our lives together.

Zac Workun 1:16

Did you immediately have like that forward snapshot of like just seeing yourself at 70 and him at your life? I still do. Yeah, okay, good, good, good, good. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 1:23

So I, you know, I started playing with my grandfather when I was really young and have those memories. And um, you know, for him, um, I knew that that was something that we could do together because he and I are a lot alike that way.

Zac Workun 1:33

That fishing golf a generational game, like like the the memories that I have most vivid of my grandfather are like golfing with him and my dad, and fishing with him and my dad. Like those are the things that like from one generation to the next, they just went to the city.

Jason Engle 1:48

That is captive audiences. That's right. Either you are in a boat together, or golf cart. You are in a golf cart for 18 holes.

Zac Workun 1:55

Legitimately just got done having a floor conversation with a guy that was asking about like how do we do better by young men. Yep. And I looked him in the eye and I said, we leave the classroom and get on a golf cart. That's exactly right. And you could tell he was like, Yep. Because that because we we need that, like ironically, more time, more focused, not less. That the 40-minute small group with 11 of us sitting in a circle. Well, yeah, man, like 14, 14-year-old guys and 41-year-old guys don't like our knees touching while we're talking. That's right. But I'll go golf with you. We can go right now.

Jason Engle 2:27

Hey, uh, to add on to that, I mean, I've found with my son, and I bet other fathers would say this too, that they are more open and vulnerable if they're not facing you and looking at you. So if you're in the car together or together and you're asking deep questions, they're more prone to open up if they don't have to look at each other.

Zac Workun 2:42

I actually think middle school boys small groups should not look at each other. I think middle school boys small groups, if they sat back to back, it might actually go better. I I don't know. I just as eye contact can come later. 100% as the father of a middle school boy, uh, like when we game together side by side playing Switch, he talks way deeper than when I'm like, tell me about your day. Right. Tell me about your day to him, is like, nope. I'll tell mom. And I'm like, all right. But when we sit next to each other and play like Smash Brothers on Switch, he'd be like, Yeah, and this one kid on the bus said this, and I'm like, all right, man, cool. Hey, if they're distracted on something, they lost it. That's right, it's whatever. You know, to get frequency knobs, right?

Jason Engle 3:22

That's

Rethinking The Aim Of Youth Ministry

Jason Engle 3:23

right.

Zac Workun 3:23

Oh man, well, today's episode, uh, I know that you have been a youth minister for many years, and you're currently working with graduate and doctoral students in youth ministry. Yes, even youth pastors can be doctors too. That's right. My mom's so proud. I don't work at the hospital though, but that's fine. It's fine. But I wanted to have a conversation with you that we've had through classes and personal conversations to bring it to the fore because I think for a lot of youth ministry folks, this is the missing piece. I think for so many youth ministry leaders, especially in the throes of summertime, yeah, where kids are showing up, there's big events and big activities, things feel deep. And I think there can be a little of this tension of like, oh, things feel deep because we had camp. But I think the secret isn't that it was just camp, it's that there was a level of growth, or to use your word, a concern for maturity that drove us to a new level of knowing or intimacy that is both biblical and necessary for youth ministry. So I want to start with what do you think should be the reconsidered aim of youth ministry? For a lot of youth pastors that are feeling like frazzled and maybe even just trying to make stuff happen without knowing how it's going, what what what give us the target to aim at? What's the tell us, professor?

Jason Engle 4:38

You know that you are uh singing my song. That's right, that's right, that's right. So I, you know, I'm reminded often of what uh Dr. Danny Aiken from Southeastern says. He writes um that last words are lasting words. And if we think about the last words of Jesus, they are the the Great Commission. Yeah, that that is our marching orders from our King to the church.

Zac Workun 4:58

Yeah.

Jason Engle 4:59

And so, you know, whereas we can be sort of creative in the way that we articulate that as our vision and our mission, um, however we articulate it, it should be a re-articulation of what the mission that Jesus gave us is.

Zac Workun 5:12

Okay.

Jason Engle 5:12

And so, you know, I just I remember working this out as a student pastor. Like, what am I supposed to be accomplishing?

Zac Workun 5:19

Right.

Jason Engle 5:19

And that's one of the benefits of being in, you know, being a long-term old guy student pastor is you're around enough where you start to ask these questions. Well, you start to ask those questions, you start getting through a few cycles.

Zac Workun 5:30

When you only have the group of students you have, yeah, your first group, that that first two to five, two to six years. You're starting to hang on. You're just trying to get through that group. The scary part is sometimes that group can be really uh uh informing for what the other groups ought to be instead of appreciating what the process is. That's right. Uh, and that's where I think having that second-order reflection of like what is the process of ministry that moves a thank goodness a 13-year-old isn't who they're gonna always be. Exactly.

Jason Engle 5:56

Like the appreciation for same thing for a 47-year-old. Well, I mean, that's too.

Zac Workun 6:00

But but in the confines of from for the 11, 12-year-old guys that are in my J High group, like, thank goodness Asher isn't always who he's gonna be. Asher, if you're listening, I love you. But the deodorant sniffing, my man, yeah. I'm so proud of the day you stopped doing that. If you're still doing that at 30, they don't know. That's right, that's right. Right, because that that's but but that also is like it's the tax, yeah, but it's also the goodness of like watching the grow up in it. That's right. And that's why I think when we limit ourselves to like growth is how many we reached, we miss the depth part. But so many of us are scared to invest in like what deep is. And that's why when you shared about it being a maturity, that almost feels like something that has like an overlay or sense to it. So would you share a little bit with the other thing?

Jason Engle 6:44

And then that's where that comes from, right? Is is is if if our marching orders from our king is the Great Commission, that we are too, that the core of that is to make disciples. Yep, right. I just want to think downstream from that. Yeah, if we make disciples, what ought to be the outcome of that flows from it, yeah. Right. And so as I'm trying to think about this, I turn to the end of Colossians 1, Colossians 1, 27, 28, right there at the end of the first chapter, and I see the apostle Paul give his vision, right? His aim, his personal aim and ministry. Yeah, and I don't know about you, but if Paul shares what his aim and ministry is, yeah, yeah, yeah. I sort of feel like ought to be my aim too, right? And what does he say there at the end of the chapter? He says, the reason why I toil and struggle, and if you think about all that Paul faced, all that Paul went through, um, and he's saying that he's willing to press into this, he's willing to continue to walk in this. Why? So that he may present everyone as mature, everyone as mature. Why did Paul sit down and pin these letters to these churches? Yeah. Because he wanted them to grow into maturity.

Zac Workun 7:45

This is this is the baseline for all of us. Like it's not just good Timothy or Titus advice. This is not a pastoral epistle, this is this is the call for everyone. That's right.

Jason Engle 7:53

And you know, very early on as a student pastor, I wanted to take students seriously. Yeah. And, you know, I I tell students that if I'm speaking to students, one of the first things I'll often say, if it's not my students, if I'm speaking somewhere else, is I want them to know like this is a stewardship for me. I want to take you seriously.

Zac Workun 8:09

I'm not here to babysitter interest. That's exactly right.

Jason Engle 8:11

I want to teach this is big work, right? If I've been tasked to teach the word, we can still have a good time in that. But I I want to teach you something from this because this is the most important thing, right? Um, I'm not the most important thing here. Uh the word is the most important thing. And you will forget my name, you'll forget I was here. But if you can remember something from this, right? So I want to I want to see their capacity for depth, and I think that there's been good discussion, even in that, that students can handle some depth. We need to be careful with that, and we need to balance that course. But you know, that leads me to think, okay, in student ministry, I think that the aim ought to be right in line with what Paul's aim is, with what the New Testament seems to be pointing to, with the marching orders that our King has given us. Yeah. And so if we're thinking downstream, yeah, you know, if if we are doing what Jesus has commanded us to do, to make disciples of all nations, which includes the students in front of me, if that's my primary stewardship, yeah, then my great desire should be to see disciples being made. Yep. And how do we measure that by spiritual maturity as we grow in Christ?

Zac Workun 9:14

Well, and that's so different because I think for a lot of us, the the call for disciples who make disciples almost feels like a mechanical function, right? Where it's like, well, once this happens, then this. It's like it's almost like if A, then B. Right. But to check boxes or stuff, it's just like this orderly process, but it's far messier than that. And maturity gives it this broader scope of like, man, in these ways you're mature, these ways you're immature, and so it feels like a fuller picture. And I guess maybe that's some of the things I wanted to ask you about is what are some of those, because we're hungry to help imagine what maybe we haven't imagined. What are some of the elements or nodes of maturity that we should be considering as youth pastors?

Maturity As Alignment And Attunement

Zac Workun 9:55

Like, what should we be on the lookout for to praise rightly in youth ministry?

Jason Engle 9:59

Well, let's let's start broadly. So, for me, a word that I have fallen in love with is alignment. Um, so much so that I would say that I think discipleship, we can cast it like this. This is not the only thing that you can say about discipleship, but I've begun to speak about discipleship in terms of alignment. I think it's an alignment project by the spirit, right? What has sin done? Yeah, sin has distorted and twisted all of God's good creative purposes in me as a sinner. Yeah. And so I come to faith in Christ. Uh, he gives me a new heart through this miracle we call regeneration. He puts his spirit within me. And then what is the spirit up to within me? He is growing me up into this new reality that I have in Christ. Like that's salvation. That's it. Yeah. And so I think spiritual maturity looks like us walking in alignment with that. Yeah. I want to be up to in student ministry the same thing I see from the New Testament that the Spirit is up to and growing us up into maturity into Christ. Yeah. But I want to speak to something that you brought up because I think this is this is so important. The older I get, the less I am wanting to be in big debates about whether student ministry should be deep or whether it should be fun. Yeah. That's the part of it that I hate. Why do we pit those things against each other? Oh, colorful. As if we have to make it. We're talking to the right people. This is it, yeah. Or the other, right? Yeah. So here is what I believe with all of my heart. I believe that we can still um desire and aim to see students have a really good experience in student ministry and have fun together and enjoy fellowship. In fact, here's a here's a little secret. Yeah, man. Come on, come on. I think that in Christ, we ought to have more fun than anybody else on the planet.

Zac Workun 11:34

I think we gotta take that joy seriously. We are marked by joy.

Jason Engle 11:37

So I want students to enjoy that, yeah, right? But who's to say that we have to choose one or the other? I think that they can enjoy it and have a great experience, but we can take teaching seriously and we take spiritual maturity seriously. And at the end of the day, the the thing that I want students to do the most during their time in student ministry is behold the beauty and majesty of Christ. Yeah. Yeah if they don't come to do that, yeah, then what's it all for? I want them to know and treasure Jesus. And you know, we've talked about this in class. Um, I think one of the things that makes us really uncomfortable when we talk about maturity is that that is really hard to measure. Yeah. That's it. It's really hard to measure.

Zac Workun 12:18

It sort of feels like a category that just belongs with age. Like, well, maturity means older. That's right. But it's not necessarily a natural category. Just because you're getting older doesn't mean you're maturing. That's exactly right. And I love that careful distinction. That's exactly right. So give us some things that maybe we could either imagine or measure. Yeah.

Jason Engle 12:33

Yeah. So from scripture, I love uh I love the prayers of Paul. Yeah. And so here is sort of my working.

Zac Workun 12:38

You had me hooked to this in class because I had another professor from uh another institution back in the day. Yeah, he said, if you want to know someone's heart, hear how they pray. That's exactly right. And so because you were like, hey, we're gonna get into maturity by way of Paul's prayers, I was like, I'm in. So so here, so I would I would put it like this.

Jason Engle 12:55

This is how I put it.

Zac Workun 12:56

Yeah.

Jason Engle 12:56

Um, that if Paul states in Colossians 1 that his overall aim is to see them presented as mature, then I believe that when we hear Paul pray, he's given us insights into what that means. Yeah, he's given the game away. That's exactly right.

Zac Workun 13:10

The prayer gives the game away. That's right.

Jason Engle 13:11

So that that actually is is the focus of my dissertation. Yeah. I wanted to ask that question. What does it mean to know biblically and how can we investigate Paul's prayers and can we identify their objectives for spiritual maturity? Because I'm a firm believer in we cannot pursue something if we can't see it.

Zac Workun 13:28

Yeah.

Jason Engle 13:29

And so, you know, I I want to spend the rest of my life, Lord willing, helping student ministry leaders think more deeply about what does that look like.

Zac Workun 13:38

Yeah.

Jason Engle 13:39

If we can get a vision for that, then we can begin to pursue it and we begin to measure it. And so I believe that when Paul prays, we get a vision for that. So when he prays in Ephesians for the church in Ephesians, and he prays that um that the spirit uh would work in wisdom and revelation to uh to enlighten the eyes of our hearts, to be able to see something. And what is it that he prays that we would see? It's these spiritual realities, yeah, right? The hope to which he has called us, the mighty power that's at work in those who are believers and who we are as his great inheritance. Yeah, right? Those are the three that he throws out, but I don't think we have to stop there. Yeah. So the word I like to use with that is attunement.

Zac Workun 14:16

Okay.

Jason Engle 14:16

I think that as we grow into attunement, we're in attunement with what is really real, yeah, and we need God to reveal that to us because sin has kind of eclipsed that for us. And so one of the works that the Spirit does within us is he illuminates the eyes of our hearts to be able to see what we used to not be able to see.

Zac Workun 14:33

We were blind to see with to see with focus what we were blind to.

Jason Engle 14:36

Yes, see in focus, and as it comes into more and more focus, we grow into that. Yeah, we don't expect that students have it's not a switch, it's a dial. That's right, that's right, yeah, yeah. So we want to we want them to become increasingly attuned to the reality of God's will, to what God is up to in the world. Yeah. Um, you know, we can't always have the answers to the question why, but the more that we more the more that our hearts are centered on the hope that is ours and knowing that God, everything that happens, he's using it for our good and for his glory. Yeah. All of it is according to his plan. Yeah. All of it is working towards the completion of this great work of redemption, yeah. The more we are um, the more safe we are, yeah, the more confident we are in a God who's at work, even though it's chaos.

Zac Workun 15:21

The more joyful we are in in the midst of grief or despair. Like I mean, it it sets the realities against each other. And I think that's such an important piece of the maturity that for a student that feels like the culture that we live in is in chaos or their future feels uncertain, that that to bring into attunement what's not just true that I know in my head to think or believe, but what's true in a way in which I like align and attune my life, like that feels like a really significant happening in the crucible of being a teenager. Like that is because they are in that, you know, why don't I have the girlfriend? Why don't I have the success? Why don't I have what I feel like I'm owed? Like that, that's a maturing process instead of just like I'm looking for the answer of like a question to uh to uh is this true or not? Because the true is true, but in what ways can I understand it? Like I think that's some of that tension.

Jason Engle 16:17

So that's right. And you know, to build onto that, um, making the shift that we see so prevalent in our culture that my life is mine to command, it's mine to have to that's not attunement. Yeah, that's that's wanting Jesus to be attuned to me. Yeah, and that's so often how we hear it. Jesus is my copilot problem. Yeah, yeah. Instead, maturity, the more we we mature, the more we understand that we're becoming attuned to him. So I don't know, uh, maybe this resonates with you, but uh, I was in the band, I was a band geek. Same saxophone trumpet. Trumpet, okay.

Zac Workun 16:45

So uh so you get to my sixth grade son is uh we're we're doing trumpet this fall. We're excited, we're excited, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's better than saxophone. We're both it is, but when you're 40, Kenny G was really cool. That's true, that's it.

Jason Engle 16:59

That's that's fantastic. But those tunes, that was that's a combination. Bring back Michael Boltman. So if you'll if you'll go back to Friday nights before a football game, yeah, the band comes together, yeah, and what's the first thing you do? You get into a big semicircle, yeah, and one, usually it's a flute, something else, play a tone, yeah, and then what happens? Everybody else plays the same tone. Dialing it in. That's right. Everybody else is working towards attunement to that one tone. Yep. That's exactly what the spiritual walk is. That's this work of alignment that the spirit is doing within us. The more that we are attuned to what is true north, yeah, the more we are attuned to what is true, our lives become aligned with that.

Zac Workun 17:34

Well, and for folks asking what's next in their life, which is all of us, but teenagers especially, instead of just being like, Well, what's my next step? Yeah, you know, like a lot of things, sometimes it's finding our way back to the path instead of trying to figure out how you know God make this path straight.

Speaker 3 17:50

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Zac Workun 17:51

Like walk me back to where we're going instead of just what I'm trying to do in my own effort. And so let me make this really practical for student ministry. Hit them with it.

Jason Engle 17:59

Here is what we get to do in teaching.

Zac Workun 18:02

Yeah.

Jason Engle 18:02

We get to draw back the curtain of eternity and call our students to behold the beauty of God and the the the goodness of his will.

Zac Workun 18:12

Yeah.

Jason Engle 18:13

Like we want to bring students into alignment with what he has revealed in his word. And if we if we only think of the gospel in terms of concept, yeah, then it's just gonna be things that we memorize and we we we we we throw out and we can regurgitate. Yeah. What if we began to understand the gospel instead as a way? Jesus says, I am the way, yes, the truth, and the life. So we are unveiling the way, yeah, not because we are wise in ourselves, or we are, but because we know that Jesus is the way.

Zac Workun 18:42

Literally, we're just lighting a path. That's right. It's it's not our path. We're just lighting a path. Right. And that and that feels so much uh more feel feels less stressful than bearing the weight of being like, I know all the answers to the questions you may have. That's right. It's just reminding them back to the path. Yeah. Um I I sent some questions before we started, and and I think there's something in here I want to make sure we get to. And it's the pressure where we feel like some of our students get it, some of them don't. And your years of experience, like for the youth ministry leader, just feels like, man, like, why do some of my people just not get it? Yeah. Because like I I can sense it already. Like, we're gonna we're gonna peel back the curtain, we're gonna point to the path, and some kids are gonna be like, nah. And then we're gonna feel like, oh no, what do we do now? And so that tension of like, I, you know, I I I I can what's the old movie line? I uh there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. That's right. And so if if we if we've shown them the path, but they're not walking the path, give us an assurance or a confidence or a clarity. For it's like some kids just may not get it, and some some may absolutely do. Here it is, you ready?

Jason Engle 19:51

Yeah, this is gonna blow you away. Okay, you ready? You ready? This is gonna be super revealing. You ready? Yeah, yeah. That is the spirit's work. What a great gospel truth that is. And that's true for student ministry leaders or parents, right? You're a parent, I'm a parent. You know, one of the things that washes away the weight off of me is to understand that salvation is a work of the Lord.

Zac Workun 20:12

Yeah.

Jason Engle 20:12

And I do have a stewardship, I do have a responsibility. Don't get me wrong. There's a work, there's a work. Absolutely, yeah. But that's not my work. That's exactly right. Oh, yeah. All we can do is point, all we can do is shepherd, all we can do is teach, all we can do is reveal, all we can do is hold up. Yeah. And we trust that the Spirit does that.

What Teaches Beyond The Message

Jason Engle 20:28

Let me tell you a story.

Zac Workun 20:28

Tell me.

Jason Engle 20:29

Um, so there was a student in our student ministry when I first got to our church. I've been there for 20 years, and this kid was just hard. And there were times actually where I almost wished he was not there. Okay. Seriously, have you ever had students like that? I mean, just to be honest. There's some that maybe the week went better when they weren't there.

Zac Workun 20:49

Let's say, yeah, yeah. Let's just be, I'm only sorry, Ronnie. I hope you're doing good, Ronnie. Yeah.

Jason Engle 20:53

I still loved him, loved his family, but it was just, you know, why would why don't you get this? Yeah, you know? And it seemed like everybody around him was getting it, and he just wouldn't. And it was like, what's going on? He graduates, and he's a kid that I would have told you never gonna walk with Jesus. Let's just be, I mean, just out of my flesh. Just not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So fast forward a couple of years. You pray for him, but but but all signs point to nothing. That's exactly right. So, so, and this is the Lord's conviction of my heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I show up to Southeastern early in my M diff, and I sit down for class, I'm taking my stuff out, and I turn around, that kid's in the desk next to me at seminary. Amazing. And I was like, I seriously, what came out of my mouth? What are you doing? What are you doing? Am I being cranked? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the beauty of the story, though. He looks at me and he says, That's exactly what I would expect you to ask me.

Zac Workun 21:45

Okay.

Jason Engle 21:46

And that took me aback. And he looked at me and he said, This, Zach, this blew me away. One of the greatest encouragements I've ever got in my life. He said, I didn't think that I paid attention to anything in student ministry.

Zac Workun 21:57

Okay.

Jason Engle 21:57

But when the Lord got a hold of me, okay, all that. Stuff started coming back. Come on.

Zac Workun 22:04

And I was like, what? Okay, because that was one of the questions I was going to ask you because a lot of us get wrapped up on like the 27 to 40 minute teaching that we teach and your wisdom and experience. What is actually teaching beyond teaching? Right. Because I think this is where we got to get really comfortable with that uncomfortable notion that more of our teaching is not from a mic and is not on a platform. So what is your encouragement of like what actually teaches beyond teaching? Let me say two things.

Jason Engle 22:36

First, I want to say, I want I want to voice a frustration. Okay. I'm getting frustrated with this increased sort of notion that we need to diminish teaching so that we have more time to spend with students because relationships is the most important thing.

Zac Workun 22:48

Okay.

Jason Engle 22:48

Okay. That's not to diminish the importance of relationships. Yeah. But that is not what we need to be doing. Okay. We need balance. Okay. Okay. One of the ways in 20 years of ministry that I think one of the chief ways that I loved students the most is communing with the Lord in the scriptures. Yeah. And giving them the overflow of that.

Zac Workun 23:08

Yeah.

Jason Engle 23:09

That's how we love students.

Zac Workun 23:10

Yeah.

Jason Engle 23:11

Okay. Now we don't stop there. Yeah. And to anybody out there who is spending 40 hours a week preparing a message, I would say that's wrong. Yeah, 40 hours and 40 minutes is probably, yeah, right, right, right, right. So and you and you would say this like I'm not, I'm not a uh anti-curriculum guy, but even if you're using curriculum, you need to be communing with the Lord in that's right. Not just showing up and reading it. That's right. That's right. And you guys offer great material and even great guidance for the teacher in that. Like sit in that, make sure that the Lord's doing a work in your heart first before you take it to students. But you are absolutely right about how it needs to spill over. Because here's the truth. And I know this in parenting. Yeah. And you do too. Yeah, yeah. That we can preach all day long, but if they don't see it, like that's the believable aspect of it.

Zac Workun 23:56

Yeah. Right.

Jason Engle 23:57

That does away with the defeater belief sort of stuff.

Zac Workun 24:00

Well, it's it's it's how it gets translated. Right. And I think that's I think that's some of the tension that I always feel between the formal teaching and the received teaching is um man, the the eloquence of language, the cleverness of points, the the uh artistry of graphics, all helpful. Oh yeah. But those little moments of how you shared about the kid that you like from this moment already, the conversation of like the kid that I thought I had given up on was a seminary classmate, yeah. That that'll shake you, where you're like, I thought it was for this, and then it actually was for that. And for so many of us, like we prepare what we're gonna share when we were really sharing more than we realized the whole time.

Jason Engle 24:44

Um standing on the stage and I'm saying, walk the way of Christ, walk the way of Christ, walk the way of Christ. Like when it comes down to it and we have a fork in the road and we know that God's word calls us this way, but everything in me is calling me this way because the flesh is still within me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to trust God's word. Yeah. If they don't see that in me, yeah, like if they don't see me coming to those points, and if they're coming to me for wisdom and advice, and I'm just giving them logic out of my own heart, or I'm careful to point them to God's word, it's just those things. Like our our walk with them, our relationship with them, the way that we love them, yeah, um, is it has to demonstrate, and you know, if if I truly want Jesus to be your supreme desire, then every time you come to me, I want to point you to Him. Yeah. That doesn't mean that every conversation has to be super spiritual. We just, you know, we we love them. But at the end of the day, I want them, I want to model that for them. Yeah. That I want you mostly to set your eyes on Jesus. He's the author and perfecter of our faith.

Zac Workun 25:41

Yeah.

Jason Engle 25:41

And he's gonna give us endurance to run this race before us if we keep our eyes fixed on him. Keep your eyes fixed on him.

Zac Workun 25:46

And I think that's some of the secret blessing of longevity is the longer you're there, the more you run out of youth stories. Yeah. And it has to be true stories.

Speaker 3 25:53

That's right, that's right, that's right.

Zac Workun 25:55

Like I've like, God has showed up in your life, and these were not just like anecdotes for a message, yeah, but it is the man, for uh for folks that you know have walked through like a difficult season of infertility with them and their wife, and the youth group got to love them through it. Absolutely, or the youth pastor lost a parent, yeah, or it was a difficult, like like when they get to see how real faith is exactly right when life happens to you. And then it's still true for then it puts a question to them of like, okay, this was not just you know, him delivering, you know, church history or theological content, but this was true all the way down.

Jason Engle 26:36

Bro, you know this is true. Students will see through you it's their superpower. It's their superpower. If you are inauthentic, if you're just teaching it, but you're not living it, you really believe it, they'll see through you from the beginning and they will tune you out. Yeah, or they'll come to believe that that's what Christianity looks like, they'll box it out, right?

Zac Workun 26:54

And that's that's the part that I think we've got to be really mindful of in an Instagrammable influencer age, is that they expect to have people in the world that just live in their box. That's right. And so if Pastor is just in the moral box or is in the good advice box or the inspirational box, that's right, they'll leave it there. Yep, and then we'll get frustrated that it didn't permeate. And it's like, well, brother, like, you know, they have their guy that's a gamer, or they have their, you know, uh fashion person that's informing that, and you'll just be one of many crayons in their influencer kaleidoscope, and that's not who you want to be. And so it does have to collide in those ways.

Jason Engle 27:35

But let me let me be careful to say this on the heels of what I just said. Um, we do need to show and demonstrate to students that we just love them.

Zac Workun 27:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 27:44

And, you know, students know very quickly also if we're just interested in them being a number, yeah, that we get to celebrate. Yeah. Or if we care for them beyond, you know, regardless of what you do with what I tell you, I love you. Right, right, right. And I enjoy hanging out with you. Did you miss my attendance, or do you actually love me? Yeah, so we go to the ball games and we go to the school functions and we celebrate things, and sometimes we just hang out. Yeah. And so don't get me wrong, those things are are important. Yeah. But I don't think we have to sacrifice one for the other. It's a balance that's there. And we are showing love in both ways, and they're really playing off each other. If a student knows that I love them relationally, they're gonna know that I love them from the stage. Yeah. If they see that I love them from the stage and the way that I'm preaching them, they're gonna know and see that I love them relationally. So those two things work together. That's good. And it's just a balance, right? It's good. So stop pinning things against each other, man. Just a balance.

Zac Workun 28:33

Speaking of pinning things against each other, uh, I'm working on a project for you. Uh, and I wanted to ask you on camera uh to get your feedback. Okay, so we talked about alignment. Yeah, we talked about attunement.

Fighting For Attention With Abiding

Zac Workun 28:47

One of the things in the currency of all of the maturity conversation is attention.

Jason Engle 28:52

Yeah.

Zac Workun 28:53

So selfishly, but also for our friends, how do we form disciples in a world that's a fighting for their attention? Because everything about maturity, depth, spiritual growth seems really slow and hard won. Like the idea of like spending all that time of like warming the band up and tuning the notes, that's a whole process before the thing that was the performance. How how do how do we take to heart that seriously in youth ministry when we feel like, man, I barely get them for three times a month? Like, how how do I commit to this deep work when everybody is just clawing for their attention?

Jason Engle 29:36

We have to fight for this.

Zac Workun 29:38

Okay. Is this the actual battle? We cannot more more than travel ball, more than parents, more than is the battle attention. I'm getting I'm getting to the heart of it. Okay, okay, hit me, hit me.

Jason Engle 29:48

So so we have to, and this is what we have to fight for. Okay. The recipe for spiritual formation is not going to change because our culture is going faster than ever. Okay.

Zac Workun 29:58

And so their speed is not what determines our protocol.

Jason Engle 30:03

We can't microwave something that takes time. Okay. And so we have to be honest with students. Okay. We have to be honest with people that we grow spiritually as we abide in Christ. That word abide is a hard word for us.

Zac Workun 30:19

Yeah.

Jason Engle 30:19

Right? That doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense in seconds. It's foreign to us, right? It is, it is. So everything about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, I mean, we have to help students. And you know, I'm I also kind of grew out of, I think for a time I thought I had to demonize everything.

Zac Workun 30:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 30:36

Stop demonizing things.

Zac Workun 30:37

Well, we're we're trying to we're trying to create space between everything to enlarge our circle and we're missing it.

Jason Engle 30:43

Yeah, just help them, help them attain margin. Yeah. Like we've got to help them fight for margin. We've got to fight for margin. So when we talk about technology, I don't know about you, but I'm just as guilty of boom scrolling, and I'm just as guilty of being, you know, like addicted to my screen. Yeah. And so I think we all just have to have a good idea.

Zac Workun 31:00

A lot of us have preached against Instagram on a Wednesday and then gone home and scrolled around it instead. Anyone, okay, sorry. Or Instagram. Or Instagram. Or Instagram.

Jason Engle 31:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here is the best thing that I think we ever did in our student ministry. Yeah. Is I wanted to take seriously the truth that I can't just tell students how to have a relationship with Jesus. I have to carve that out. Yeah. We do in ministry what we think is important in ministry, right? And so here I think is the answer to that, get into the heart of what you're asking. Um, the only way that we're gonna grow in our affection for Christ is help students abide in Christ.

Zac Workun 31:35

Yeah.

Jason Engle 31:35

They're not gonna grow in affection for Christ just because they hear me talking about Christ.

Zac Workun 31:40

Just because the exposure to and what is the recipe for that?

Jason Engle 31:44

Spiritual disciplines. Yeah. Discipline is another word. Yeah. Like I discipline. Yeah.

Zac Workun 31:48

Now you're saying all the things they don't want to hear.

Jason Engle 31:51

But here's the truth. I believe that if you taste and see, yeah, you're gonna see that it's good. It's good. And so in student ministry for a while, I was teaching on spiritual disciplines, but I realized that was not enough. We've got to carve out time to lead our students in doing it. And so I came up with this radical idea that students are gonna come to our church on a Sunday morning and we were gonna read a passage together. Yeah, and then we're gonna break off, and students are gonna scatter out. The only rule is, or a couple of rules, no technology. The other rule is you have to be able to make eye contact with a leader. Yeah, you know. We don't want you to go off. Yeah. So still wanted to take care of them and you're still in eyeshot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they spent an hour and a half, 90 minutes in that passage. Now I put together a guide. Here are things that you can do to work together. They weren't free-falling. And Zach, when we showed up, when we scattered out, I was scared to death to see what was gonna happen. Here is what happened to every student. Nobody complained. Most of the students said, Why do we have to stop? I was just getting going. Because they saw that it took 50 minutes, 60 minutes just to shut off and be able to tune in.

Zac Workun 33:00

Yeah.

Jason Engle 33:00

And I had one had one student one time we did this, he comes up to me and he says, Um, yeah, I don't care about the Bible I didn't read. My mom made me come, but thanks for making me be quiet for a little while.

Zac Workun 33:09

But but but for but for but for real though, I I feel like so many of us live in this pressure of like time is a thing that we have to fill. Yeah. Like gathered time, given, like that is the gift. Yeah. And I think for a lot of, especially if like what we talk about is, man, I wish they had a more uh cultivated quiet time. I wish they knew how to abide better. Well, then uh you may have to allow some of your plans to be disruptive because this was the better plan. That's right. Your line, we do say it again for folks. We do ministry, but what we want it like like the way that we show that what we show what's important about what we do what we do.

Jason Engle 33:47

Yeah, like I can't reproduce the way I said it earlier.

Zac Workun 33:50

No, but because there's there's so many, I don't know, there's just so many friends that will talk about from stage the important study of their Bible and then send them to do it when when we got to go from classroom to lab. Like we've got to get them in the actual doing of the thing that we instructed them to do.

Jason Engle 34:05

Like And here's the problem that we can fall into so easily is that students become dependent on the ministry, they don't become dependent on Christ. And so they graduate from the ministry.

Zac Workun 34:17

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 34:18

How do we prepare them for that? If I want them to be a lifelong disciple, I've got to help them know how to be a lifelong disciple.

Zac Workun 34:24

Well, because that changes the trajectory. And I think for so many of them, the fact that it's a long game and a short season, like like your your goalposts are not graduation. That's right. Like, like this, you you have a a limited frame, but the state championship for youth ministry is not played on graduation day.

Jason Engle 34:41

Or it's graduation for post-graduation. It's graduation for launch out of it.

Zac Workun 34:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chad Chad from the podcast always talks about we should start assessing youth ministry efforts not on uh senior Sunday, but sophomore of college Sundays. That's right. Like some wisdom in that. Let me know when you're 20 how it's going. Yeah, like that's that then I'll know you, man, you're such a great youth pastor. Yeah, yeah. But when you're 20, call me. And if that's still true, I'll take it then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 35:06

But I mean, it it comes down to that. Like our our culture is only going to become more distracted.

Zac Workun 35:12

Yeah.

Jason Engle 35:12

Right. So, how are we helping students work through that?

Zac Workun 35:15

Yeah.

Jason Engle 35:16

How are we helping them build margins? How are we helping them um build healthy relationships with their devices and with technology and all of these things? And if we are not helping them know how to pursue Christ without depending on the ministry, then we're working against ourselves and we're not really pursuing the aim of spiritual maturity. Yeah. And, you know, I can't remember our good friend Chris Trent, I think, in uh in class from all over Georgia. That's right, throughout the uh, you know, the question, like when we talk about spiritual maturity, are we talking about a destination or are we talking about a trajectory? And I thought that was such a good way to ask it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it's not like the boxes are checked. Yeah. And not every student is going to come to the church. Oh, yeah.

Zac Workun 35:57

You were so good too. You you you re we love him. We rebuked them. Uh that you were not spiritual mature. Like we don't arrive, but we are maturing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a maturity. That's it. Not not a mature or not.

Jason Engle 36:09

Sanctification takes place until we are glorified. That's right, that's right. And so our aim should be that our students have enough spiritual maturity that they are ready and capable of pursuing Christ with all their hearts as meaningful members of this church. And that's another thing, right? Understanding that students are not the church of tomorrow, the church of today. And the Holy Spirit resides within them, then they are very much a part of the church. So are we helping them understand their identity aspect as far as what a member is and how they're plugging into the church and how they're exploring spiritual gifts and you know, it's just anticipating bigger vision, yeah.

Zac Workun 36:44

Right?

Jason Engle 36:45

It's just thinking, what do they need?

Zac Workun 36:46

Yeah.

Jason Engle 36:47

Um, you know, once again, how does the spirit grow us up into that? Yeah, and whatever we see the spirit do in the New Testament, let's walk in alignment with that. Yep. Right? We can't guarantee that it's gonna happen. I can't, I can't do that. But I want to be working in concert, in alignment, in attunement with what the spirit is doing. And the more that I am, the more I can be confident that the spirit will do what the spirit does.

Zac Workun 37:06

That's good. Right? That's good.

Jason Engle 37:07

And so all that, you know, all that pressure falls off of us, yeah, and we just serve for the pleasure of the Lord, knowing that we are doing all that we can to point students to the source that they need, to the way that they need to walk, and we leave the results up to him.

Zac Workun 37:23

And some of that irony is it will require the maturing of us. That's right. Um, beyond what I can manage and maintain, that's right, beyond what I can plan and prepare, and trusting and knowing whose work is what. That's right. Uh, and why we're actually doing the thing that we're doing. Yep. Jason, we're here, SBC.

Rest, Trust God, Keep Going

Zac Workun 37:40

It's summer 26. What is a word of encouragement you'd give to the youth pastors that are maybe here or maybe they're at home, planning camp, running camp, but as we're thinking about this summer into fall, what's a word of encouragement uh or a maturing thought or prayer that you'd send them with?

Jason Engle 37:56

Yeah, I think just some of what we've been talking about, you know, just rest in the Lord's goodness. Um, you know, one of the reasons why I love student ministry so much is that I've never met a student pastor who did not love, love the students in their ministry.

Zac Workun 38:12

Yeah, yeah.

Jason Engle 38:13

Like they love. They're not in it for the money. Right.

Zac Workun 38:17

They love it, yeah.

Jason Engle 38:17

And you know, we can that love is a weight in itself, right? And so we go through camp and we go through all the summer stuff, and it's almost like we can't even slow down to be in the moment, you know. And even when the moment comes, we're so distracted by all these other things. Yeah, do what God has called you to do and just rest in Him. Find time to rest in Him. Yeah. Carve out some time for one of those spiritual retreats where you're just in the Word and you're reflecting. And that can be hard to do during a busy summer, but if you're not doing that, then what are you what are you counting on?

Zac Workun 38:50

That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right. Right? If not, if not now, when? It's the hydration, dehydration, like when the sun gets hot, uh you should have known to hydrate. That's right, that's right.

Jason Engle 38:59

And so for the difficult situations that you'll face this summer, just trust that the Lord is at work. That's good. And for the the what looks like the overt like movement of God in some students, yeah, just trust that we don't know if that's authentic or not. We don't know what's gonna happen when they come off the campfire. That's right, but celebrate that now. Yeah, make much of the Lord in that moment and continue to press students deeper into Christ. That's good. And just rest. Rest, leave the results up to him and rest in him.

Zac Workun 39:28

So well, Jason, Dr. Engel, thank you again so much. If you want to learn more about growing in your faith, uh both academically and spiritually, um check out with my friend here. Until then, see you back next week.