32 | Sownd Affects (UK), with Marion Marincat

Anyone who's experienced hearing loss or noise sensitivity will appreciate the pioneering efforts of Sownd Affects in the UK, an organization founded by entrepreneur and "audio-inclusive" advocate Marion Marincat. At the age of 26, Marion lost his hearing, and he's turned his loss into something positive. 

In this episode of Soundproofist, Marion describes how his organization uses data, decibel readings, and design to create spaces and events that are acoustically pleasing without being too loud -- or too quiet. You'll also learn how he's working with the World Health Organization to create more global awareness of noise and hearing health. 

Transcript

Cary (00:05):

This is episode 32 of the Soundproofist podcast, and my name is Cary. And today we're going to talk with Marion Marincat. He's the founder of an organization in the UK called "Sownd Affects." They work with businesses to create audio-inclusive or noise-friendly events and spaces that cater to people with hearing sensitivities. We'll learn more about Marion's journey and the Sownd Affects mission in this episode.

Marion (00:41):

Hi, my name is Marion Marincat. I am a co-founder and CEO of Sownd Affects. I first became interested in sound probably in my teens when I got really interested in dancing. So I became a professional dancer in my teens. And that, in my twenties, led to being fortunate enough to own a couple of music clubs. So I was really into dancing and selecting what type of music gigs we want to have.

Cary (01:11):

And was that often... was it loud music?

Marion (01:14):

Oh, it was definitely loud. I really enjoyed being in the front line where the speakers were and obviously going to all these festivals in Europe. Festival seasons really started to kick off in Europe in the 2000s. So I was going to as many as possible. But my dancing interest was in modern dancing, and so quite a range of music types that I was enjoying.

Cary (01:40):

And then it sounds like at some point you began to feel the effects of dancing by the loud music?

Marion (01:47):

Well, actually when I was diagnosed with profound hearing loss at age 26, that was my first thought as well. I was sure it was because I was blowing my ears with incredible amounts of sound, but that wasn't actually the case. It was for medical reasons that I lost my hearing. And it turns out I was given some very strong antibiotics in my childhood that had an impact on my auditory system, which as a side effect is only noticeable in adulthood. So that was just a coincidence that my hearing loss occurred after a lot of music being played in my ears.

Cary (02:28):

Definitely sounds like it was an interruption in your life goal and career plans though.

Marion (02:35):

Well, it was... when you were born with hearing and then you're not able to hear just as well, it feels like a massive loss. And that's exactly what it felt like. It was very depressing. And I definitely lost the ability to socialize for quite a while, and started wearing hearing aids, which is not cool when you're 26, 27 in a world where we see hearing aids as they are seen. And of course it started as a personal challenge. Well, first of all, I realized right there and then how much I took sound for granted, and how many people then actually struggle with hearing. Immediately after that, I became very interested in what I was going through, and I was curious how many other people are going through this stuff? Am I the only 26-year-old that's losing their hearing and everyone else is old? It was quite a revelation around different areas of how I saw the world and how important it was for me.

Cary (03:35):

Sure. Just out of curiosity, did it happen gradually or just one day you woke up and your hearing wasn't there?

Marion (03:44):

It was when you come out of a plane and you hear your ears are blocked, so you try and pop them. So I try to pop my ears for about six months. And I thought I had a cold, and I went through this whole journey of denial until I had to go and see an audiologist. But it happened almost overnight. So almost overnight, I couldn't understand what certain people were saying, and I could understand others. And I found out later why: because the different tones of voice and how people speak. But it was very scary to go through that massive difference in a very short period.

Cary (04:23):

Yeah, no kidding. I know sometimes after... when I was younger, I used go to very loud concerts. And you had a ringing in your ears sometimes afterwards. And also it had that feeling of, yeah, when you go underwater and you have water in your ears. But within a day or two it would sort of slowly, I think, come back. But I can't imagine how that would feel when it never comes back. That is, especially at age 26. Can you tell us about your organization that you founded: Sownd Affects? What is the mission of Sownd Affects?

Marion (04:58):

Well, as I started being more accustomed with wearing hearing devices, I wasn't getting very used to not being able to socialize as much  as before because of how noisy everything started to be for me. And for the past 12 years or 14 years since I experienced hearing loss, I wanted to change that. So I was very keen to get back into being in social environments, being with friends, listening to music. And it's not really possible if you go to amplified music gigs that are amplified beyond necessary. So because I was always a bit of an entrepreneur, and I worked in different industries: my background is in architecture, law, finance, and behavioral science. So I combine all of these into thinking, "well, how do I solve this problem?" And then also, firstly, "how many people deal with this?" And I realized it's one in three people is noise-sensitive to some degree, and you don't need to be diagnosed to be sensitive to noise.

(06:11):

So over the last seven years or so, I asked that question, how do we solve this problem? How do we solve the problem of the world being too noisy? And only realizing that when you either lose your hearing or you have someone in the family that has a problem. So by the time we got to Sownd Affects, which came to life last year, we were funded three times by the UK government to solve the problem of noise pollution in the built environment. And at events, I became a group facilitator for WHO World Hearing Forum, and I started speaking at different events about this idea of hearing wellness, and how we can actually design experiences and spaces for sound. And so that's how Sownd Affects came to life last year as a brand, and this year as a Hearing Wellness Festival.

Cary (07:06):

And so the Hearing Wellness Festival, I think that's what I saw on your website. You've had a couple of events this summer. What happened at these events and how did people participate?

Marion (07:17):

Well, we launched the Hearing Wellness Festival as a geographical area. So in East London in Hackney, we decided to reach out to the council and say, okay, we're going to make this area the first area that is audio inclusive, noise-friendly, and we're going to help three grassroots music venues to make them audio inclusive and to attract the audiences that are otherwise avoiding these spaces. So we upgraded three venues to be audio-inclusive, using what we call a "sound method" to get them to that level. And then we had a music gig in each of the venue and every venue had something different. It was amazing. I mean, people, even the artists were enjoying kind of having to go to a gig where they don't need to use any PA, any amplification. It was just them with a crowd, purely acoustic. So that was quite magical.

Cary (08:15):

So these were artists who often do play with amplifiers and electronics and they were just unplugged?

Marion (08:23):

Exactly.

Cary (08:23):

Yeah,

Marion (08:24):

Three unplugged events.

Cary (08:25):

Sometimes that music is great anyway. I mean things that normally are amplified and when somebody just sits down and plays their instruments. But I also think that maybe that could be a challenge with so much electronic music. Now, how do you play electronic music acoustically? You can't. So this would have to be, I assume, piano, guitar, physical instruments. Is that correct?

Marion (08:50):

Well, it's an interesting question that we discussed about, well, how would the audio-inclusive rave look like? And it's a lot to do with the volume and the design of the space. So it's not necessarily, if it's not unplugged, it's not audio-inclusive. It's easier to manage an unplugged event and have it as audio-inclusive and advertised, and it would be a safe event for people who are more sensitive than others. But an audio-inclusive rave is definitely on the list, at least probably not in the immediate future, but we definitely want to give it a go.

Cary (09:28):

So when I did my first podcast -- which wasn't Soundproofist -- I did a podcast series 19 years ago, I started one of chill-out music. At the time, a lot of clubs would have a chill-out room that was kind of a slower beat, not loud music, but more of a kind of downtempo type of sound. And for me personally, I find it much easier to concentrate and get work done with this sort of music playing in the background, whereas 160 BPM rave music or dance music is, I can't. It's too distracting. So does music like that factor into your audio environments, or are you trying to take real heavy-duty dance music and make it more accessible?

Marion (10:17):

Well, it would be a range actually. And it's funny you mentioned a 160 beats per minute comparison because I'm in the middle of reading Julian Treasure's last book, which is called "Sound Effects," strangely, as a company. And just two days ago I was wondering, it talks about the difference in what music is being played, different situations. So if you want to concentrate or work, you need to have a lower tempo. It calms you down, it helps you engage with whatever you're doing. If you want to have, you know, if it's a party night and you're going "out-out" as it were, then of course you'll have the heavy metal a bit more engaging. What we're looking at -- and the way the sound method works -- we take each space and we measure it from end to end. So we start with the scanning of the space, then we engage the staff and if possible, the customers as well.

(11:16):

So that phase, it's defined what type of activities are happening in that space, at what times. If there are different times, if there are different rooms, there'll probably have to be different zones associated with those rooms. So it wouldn't be, this is what audio-inclusive means for everyone, this is what you need to do. It's very data-driven and that's why we collect acoustic data at the beginning and quite thoroughly. So we are not offering advisors just from an accessibility point of view, but also from how would the venue have to behave to provide the whole range of expectations.

Cary (11:54):

Do you have a decibel-level threshold, or a frequency like low frequency, or not to exceed a hundred decibels, or do you have any kind of parameters like that? Or again, it sounds like it depends on the space.

Marion (12:07):

It does depend on the space. I think generally when we're talking about noise sensitivity, anything above 75 decibels starts to become very difficult for people to understand speech. So if it's an area where you want people to communicate, then it would be around 75 that we would suggest the level to be kept at. However, it does depend on the acoustics of that space as well. So if the acoustic capacity doesn't allow for the operational capacity to be filled in the space or a space of a hundred people, you can't put a hundred people in there and expect to have a conversation if the acoustic capacity is 50.

(12:52):

So we would give these nuances depending on the space and activity in terms of standards for how high a venue you can go. I think at the moment, the threshold, the maximum recommended is 97, but really at 97 I wouldn't stay in that space. So then we would make these recommendations of no sense to people would probably go up to 85. And even that can be overwhelming. So just so you know, if your space is holding events that are going above that, you are not going to attract these audiences. And so we're trying to link the results to profit, and what type of customers they would lose, and what type of customers they might attract and how they behave around it. But try to.

Cary (13:46):

The other day I was at a monthly event that happens where I live. It's outdoors. And they open up the streets, and it's called First Thursday, and they have music playing and street food and this sort of thing. And I was sitting at a bench with some friends and some other people around us. And between the music and different people talking around me, and then trying to hear my friends, I couldn't hear my friends. And so I pulled out my cell phone and I measured the decibels. It was 104 decibels outside and I was one block away from this stage. And what they were playing was just a very, very fast beat. No real melodic quality, nobody really singing, someone yelling over the microphone. And I would imagine that your venues are not doing anything like that because it's not pleasant, even. I mean to be outdoors and it's still 104 decibels, that's a lot. And an indoor space adjusting to keep that volume under 100, while there are people talking, that's actually a challenge because the reverb in the room and the enclosure of the room is going to increase the intensity of that sound anyway.

Marion (15:01):

Absolutely. There's this funny measurement that I took a while back in a pizza place, and it's a chain. They have, I dunno, several hundred pizza places in the UK and the level was 96 in a pizza place. And they promote themselves as family-friendly pizza spots. Now at 96, it's the same level as a jackhammer from a 10 meter. So if you're 10 meters away from a jackhammer is about 95, 97. Of course different sounds, and it's quite a different type of sound. It's not as intrusive, but the damage on heart rate and how you feel about being there could be the same. So now we tend to, because we're targeting eight different types of businesses, each type of business would have a different profile that we would look at. So in hospitality, which is what you described, it very much depends on the activity, the type of venue, how big the venue is. And in the venues that we upgraded now, we did provide them with tools to be able to call an event audio-inclusive without damaging the expectation that people have when they go to one of those events. But at the same time, one of the three venues is a jazz club. And sometimes they do have loud gigs, and that's okay, but that needs to be explicitly revealed when we promote their venues as audio-inclusive, but the event may not be.

Cary (16:34):

So you mentioned hospitality is one of the types of businesses that you work with. Can you name a couple of other examples of types of businesses?

Marion (16:45):

So we're looking at coworking spaces and corporate offices. We started looking at retail and how can we help retail businesses be more of audio inclusive. Looking at hotels. Some hotels have become destination places. So you have these open space, this open space in front of the lobby, which works as coworking, and then the cocktail bar starts at six and then you have a small party going on in the corner and then there's also a restaurant and the kitchen is, doesn't have any windows. So you have everything happening in the safe place. So these are some examples that we're looking at. And then there'll be different sizes and have different activities. So lemme take that into account as well.

Cary (17:27):

So when you have, for example, a business like this and you say audio-inclusive, are there people who are seeking this out? Is there some sort of a little badge or something that people are looking for to go out? Or is that a goal of yours, so that when people go out, they look for the spaces that are rated as audio-inclusive so that they can have the environment that they want when they eat in a restaurant or go to a concert?

Marion (17:54):

That's right. We are in the process of launching a map with all the venues that we class as audio-inclusive. We are partnering up with acoustic engineering companies that have their clients that have already upgraded their spaces for acoustics. So they're already halfway there in a way. And what we also want to do is offer the auction of booking a quiet table or not noisy table, and that needs to come with continuous noise monitoring. So we're looking at the reliability of what we provide through the fact that the businesses went through the sound method to be supported by venues that have 24/7 noise monitoring. So if you want to book a quiet table, it's not just a tag that it's quiet, you can also see that it's been quiet through the decibel-level meter. That is it sold.

Cary (18:48):

Okay. Are you familiar at all with the app called Soundprint, which was started in New York City? [Yes.] Yeah, so that is something that I think an app like that being even co-listed on an app that would be helpful for those people who do seek that out. I want to go on a date and I want to be able to hear my date, that sort of thing. How would someone right now find out that this audio-inclusive space is available then? How would you find that out?

Marion (19:20):

Well, now we've listed a "Sownd Experiences" page, so have sound experiences. That's where we're going to launch everything that's coming up in terms of events, venues, maps, everything's going to be up there. And we're launching a series of "New Perspective on Sound" newsletters, where we give people tips on where to go in the meantime, what to do, what's happening in their city for the time being. We're primarily focused on London, but we get interest from all around the world actually to bring something like this. So we'll expand. That's the best way.

Cary (19:57):

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you is if this was limited just to the UK, and it sounds like it's focused on London for right now, which is probably a pretty noisy city.

Marion (20:07):

It's classed as...

Cary (20:08):

Just guessing !

Marion (20:08):

It's classed one of the noisiest capitals in Europe, so

Cary (20:13):

Wow.

Marion (20:14):

Yeah, it's quite fascinating how noisy some places can get.

Cary (20:18):

Well, and it's not just indoors either. I think you've got street noise, you've got... I noticed this a lot in some cities like in Paris and Madrid, where you have narrow city blocks but very tall buildings. So you have this corridor of noise. The noise is bouncing from one side of the street to the other, and there's a lot you don't have control over. And I feel like we lost some of this where... I felt like we were moving in this direction towards more restaurants were, for example, putting panels up on the ceiling or on the walls, and this sort of thing. So that it wasn't so... you didn't have to yell. But then once COVID happened, everything got moved outside to these little sheds outside the actual restaurant for a while. And that was actually great, because there wasn't as much bounce of the noise. But then when everything went back inside again, it seems like some businesses went away or they didn't have the stuff on the ceiling anymore. And it got loud again. So now if I eat inside, it's back to where it was before people started being conscious of this. And so I wonder what prompts a business to want to make improvements to the audio integrity of their space?

Marion (21:37):

In short: profits. So we developed a noise score that spits out the personalized report for businesses. So it takes into account their size, where they are, et cetera, and it spits out exactly what the impact of noise is on their bottom line, taking industry data and where they are. So through the questions that we ask, we identify where they are with designing for sound. And what we discovered is that if you tell businesses, look, it's the wellbeing of your staff, it's your customers, what about your customers? If there isn't a direct link to, well, what's the ROI? How much business am I getting more from doing this? Am I increasing my bottom line? If I'm improving my acoustics, then I'll consider it. And so on the back of those conversations, we develop this noise score. So then you get a business very much looking at, "oh, right, so if I'm excluding 30% of the population because I'm a noisy restaurant," and then you take other data into account and 80% of people left a venue because of noise, 17% of them will never go back to that same venue if they could. And so on. Various poor reviews, 75% of hotel reviews complaining about noise and so on. So you have so much data out there that people are avoiding leaving earlier, drinking less above a certain noise level. That's what makes people curious to act.

Cary (23:12):

There is sort of a myth, certainly commonly repeated in the United States at least, that restaurants and some business venues actually want to turn over the table faster. Because they might think, "oh, we'll make more money if people do leave, maybe because of the noise and that table will empty out, we'll get a new customer in." So sometimes this may be seen as strategic to actually be noisy. So I guess it really depends on the type of food and the expected journey of the patrons from: are they going to get an appetizer and then a main course and then a dessert and a drink afterwards, or do we just want to have lots of volume of customers turn that table around? This might also be different in the UK. You use the term "noise-friendly," and how is that different from “quiet"?

Marion (24:13):

Well, quiet is associated with a library, quite boring, nothing's going on. And for some people it's quite uncomfortable just staying in quiet unless you want quiet to work and focus. So noise-friendly is there's stuff going on. You're in a place where there's activity, but the background noise is not overwhelming. So it's noise-friendly, it's designed for sound and noise. I often come across businesses that define a quiet area as being this is a quiet area and it's quiet because there's no one there. As soon as you put three people in and they start talking, it's no longer quiet, because the design is not thought through. And so that would be quite a big difference there.

Cary (25:03):

I've been in trains in Denmark where there's actually a car on the train that is like the "quiet car," where hopefully people will go in and they're not going to get on their mobile and talk the whole train trip. Does something like that also exist in the UK where there are quiet spaces that are designated already, not just in a restaurant, but public transit or something like that?

Marion (25:32):

There are definitely quiet cars on trains, as well. Not on the Tube.

Cary (25:38):

No, that would be hard to do.

Marion (25:40):

And also the Tube reaches 110 dB at some point on some lines, so you can't get that out. You have to wear something on your ears.

There are quiet cars. There aren't any quiet tables yet. And restaurants that offer quiet areas, quiet zones, unless you go to very high end restaurant where they design it with carpets and soft furnishing, which is lovely. It's a great experience, but the mainstream hasn't been able to open that.

Cary (26:11):

With something like a hotel, that's also, I would think it's a different challenge. Because we're not then just talking about the collective dining spaces, but probably the corridors outside all the rooms, or the walls between the rooms. That's more, as you mentioned, that you have an architectural background that sounds like more... it's an ongoing design challenge. And my guess is that it's usually after the hotel's already built and they have a problem, then you have to go in and try to that, is that correct?

Marion (26:44):

Yes. I think it's a combination of, again, design, how you design the space and then the human element. Some people are not that annoyed by noise. And for example, in a hotel environment, I don't care about noise because I'm deaf. So I would just take my devices off, and I can sleep for seven hours straight without getting disturbed. It's strange, but it's true. I mean, I don't get disturbed, but there would be other people who use earplugs and they don't care. But I think when it comes to those who are noise-sensitive, they need to have the opportunity of flagging that. And I think a hotel needs to have designated areas that are quiet, and people are not disturbed by noise. Now there's an issue with hotels depending on where they are. So if you have a construction site from a hotel, that's not probably something you can do much about. Then there's noise coming from the bar area and from the restaurant which you can control, and so on. So it varies from, again, from hotel to hotel, from design to design. But generally speaking, it's good to listen to stuff customers and have some design considerations as well.

Cary (27:59):

Do you also deal with healthcare facilities, whether it's a hospital or a medical center of any kind?

Marion (28:06):

Not yet, but because we are working a lot with partnerships, we have a couple of partners that have, we would like to explore those areas as well. So it might be unavoidable in 2026 to do that.

Cary (28:24):

You mentioned that you have worked with WHO? World Health Organization, as I think a consultant you said, or on a advisory board or exactly what was your role with them?

Marion (28:35):

Well, a bit of everything, but right now I'm a group facilitator for the World Hearing Forum at WHO for one of the work streams. But I have been involved in the make listening safe work stream in Geneva and consultations regarding how to solve the problem of noise-induced hearing loss across different areas, including headphones, music venues, concerts, et cetera. And so we looked at the whole spectrum there.

Cary (29:05):

I see. Is there sort of any kind of a global rollout of future plans? Or for -- I don't want to say like "guidelines" -- that could be more of a global effort, not just confined to the UK, but throughout the world in terms of any updates to decibel levels, hours of noise, equipment, and that sort of thing?

Marion (29:29):

There are some implementations with the guidelines that WHO launched in 2022 regards to music venues. And there are various guidelines around consumer products where we're talking about noise in headphones, which is very difficult to control and monitor. But what tends to happen is the problem of noise-induced hearing loss is growing. It's not slowing down. So even though I've been part of this working group for four years now, we see the numbers going up. And it's less about what the guidelines are and it's more about systemic behavioral change needed around what's the culture of how we like to go to a concert, what's the culture of noise that we live in?

(30:17):

And since the industrial revolution and then when we had amplified gigs in the mid-1900s, we just created more noise. Because we can now. We have the technology to really go. And that's the challenge that as well through what we do with the arts as well. Going back to the basics, grassroots music venues, and let's see, does it need to be this loud? That's something that WHO is also interested in. So we have this changemakers group, where we try and get celebrities in and sort of support the movement towards a not-so-noisy world through their followers, and through people that have a lot of influence on the younger generation, and how do we flip this? And so yes, government guidelines and rules and so on, but also be able to change on the other side.

Cary (31:11):

I think probably the capacity for deeper bass is probably something that's changed in my lifetime. Where I don't think really the average home or business venue had subwoofers when I was a kid, but subwoofers and the ability of that deep bass to penetrate building structures is I think an ongoing challenge because it's become normalized. What I was also wondering is do you have any sort of a dream project? If you could do anything and money ...you didn't have limitations of being able to get funded or whatever, what kind of a project would you love to do?

Marion (31:54):

So that's interesting because linked to the last conversation, we were having there. And so we want to launch an annual global revolving Hearing Wellness Summit, and to really influence that behavioral change across all the different players and stakeholders that need to be engaged with that change. And as much as it sounds like a very exciting work project, I'm seeing it as an amplification of these annual Hearing Wellness Festivals that we want to do. It's just that one or two days we would also talk about work, but then we would still have the festival alongside it. So the dream would be to do it in three big cities, starting in 2027. And I can see it very clearly. I'm seeing it happening as well with the partnerships that we're dealing with right now. So yeah, very exciting. The project.

Cary (32:52):

2027 is not so far away anymore.

Marion (32:55):

I know. So it's going to be be a summit. I mean, if I were to say, okay, a dream summit, it would probably have to be 2028 to be a dream summit and date 2027 London first, and everything to do with, "okay, how do we design for better noise? What do spaces need to sound like inside?" Everything from biophilic soundscape design to really mindful design for different activities indoors, and then outdoors. You mentioned Paris a couple of times. I dunno, you know that they have noise radars... they started.

Cary (33:34):

Yeah. How is that working out? I mean, do you know?

Marion (33:37):

So it's very clever. They essentially send you a ticket if your noise generated by the mobile or the car exceeds, I can't remember. I think 80 decibels. I like that.

Cary (33:51):

Yeah. Yeah.

Marion (33:52):

I think that's great.

Cary (33:53):

I assume that's excluding things like jackhammers and things like that... that are considered to be "essential," I guess. I actually had gone to a noise conference. It happened in Madrid and -- I think it was 2019. The area where I was staying, I think it was called Lavapies. The street was very narrow, and like I said, the reverberation of the street was so loud. And I was sleeping in a room that was right on the street. And what was happening there was people would go and they would go out drinking, and then they would stay up all night. And so it would be like 5:30 in the morning on a Saturday night to Sunday morning. And there were still people yelling and throwing bottles and fighting and everything. And it was incredibly loud. All of these stone facades, they need something soft at the ground level so that the sound doesn't start bouncing off these walls and going all the way up. And I don't know if anyone is looking at things like that. Maybe it's just cranky people like me. It's so difficult to live in an environment like that. And maybe some people are used to it. Especially with tourism also, where people come into a city and they don't really care because they're only there for four days. But for people who live there and have to live with that, what can be done?

Marion (35:16):

Yeah, it's an interesting one. And also quite challenging to address because who has to, who's winning out of making that change? A handful of residents on that street, or maybe, I dunno, 20-30 residents and visitors who would have a better night, I suppose. But I think there are areas, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I'm just thinking about the motivation for the city council or anyone who has the decision-making power to say, "yes, let's invest some money into that facade to be more noise-friendly." I think we're probably a bit far from that, but what could be done is I've very often found people that we start a conversation and they say, "I don't think I'm a noise sensitive. What does a noise sensitive person, what does that mean?" And so I would describe certain situations where you would feel a bit impacted by noise, and people would find themselves in those situations and think, "well actually, yeah, actually I'm a bit noise sensitive. I'm just avoiding that and I'm avoiding this." So again, back to awareness. But also new building design. So in the UK, we're now forming a group on the back of the work that we've done with the British Standard Institute to develop a standard for new buildings around audio-inclusivity and sound design. And it's ridiculous that it hasn't been done yet. I mean, there is some work around this, some work. But what about outside buildings? Well, you have inside, but then you still put glass everywhere outside. So those are conversations that are starting.

Cary (37:02):

I wonder how can people contact you or your organization if they're interested in participating in -- I guess mostly in the UK at this point -- in getting some of your services or consultation or an event? How would they contact you?

Marion (37:18):

The easiest way to find us is on Sownd. So S-O-W-N-D, which is the old English word for sownd.co.uk or on LinkedIn, we're quite active. And Instagram for future events, it'd be a place where we're going to launch noiseless retreats, and we're going to launch competitions for people to do surveys with prizes at luxury spa hotels that are anything but noisy, and so on. So we're going to come out with quite a few things the next two to three months.

Cary (37:58):

I'd like to thank Marion Marincat for visiting with us. If you want to learn more about sound effects, you can find them at SOWND.co.uk. And for more information on noise and soundproofing, visit soundproofist.com.