WEBVTT 00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:12.480 This podcast is brought to you by Grand Parkway Baptist, helping people to know, enjoy, and glorify God. 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:18.000 For more information about Grand Parkway, visit Grandparkway.org. 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:21.440 Good morning. 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:22.559 Please have a seat. 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.239 My name is Blake Hartcastle. 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.960 I'm the spiritual formation pastor here at Grand Parkway. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:28.719 And Neil gave a prelude. 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.240 If you walked in just recently, we're doing it a little different. 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:34.079 We are going to have a conversation. 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.920 You get to eavesdrop in, so don't feel bad about listening in, leaning in. 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:44.159 And what we're going to uh discuss and unpack really is what God has put through many times in the scripture. 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:45.759 Lisa, we come on up here. 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.520 She's going to we heard I'm going to have a conversation. 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:49.679 I want to let you know this is a community group Sunday. 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.079 So if you're part of a community group, especially if you're a leader, listen in. 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:57.920 You will not be receiving community group questions today. 00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:58.640 What? 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:00.079 Well, what am I going to do? 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:01.039 What are we going to talk about? 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:02.079 I'm so glad you asked. 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:06.079 You're going to talk about what you think about while we have a talk. 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:09.519 And so everyone, well, people in my community group, I'm trying to look for you. 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.719 I know you some of you guys are in here. 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:11.920 Here's what's happening. 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:19.040 Everyone in community group, you need to bring two questions to your community group that came to you during this time. 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:22.079 And people in my community group, I'm going to be such a great leader. 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.040 I'm not giving any of my questions to all of you have done all your questions. 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.439 So if we don't get to mine, we don't get to mine. 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.280 So that's what's happening. 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:31.359 So I want you to listen in. 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.959 Let me start with this verse from Galatians 6. 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:46.719 Paul writes, he says, I'm astonished that you're so quickly deserting him who called you into the grace of Christ and you're turning to a different gospel. 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:53.439 Not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:02.640 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed. 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:11.840 As I said before, and now say again, if anyone's preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you've received, let him be accursed. 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:21.759 And so the conversation Lisa and I are going to have today is uh it's one that's believers have needed to talk about for a very long time. 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:31.919 And that is a constant barrage of false gospel, a constant assault, a constant enticement to a different, another gospel. 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.479 It's not life-giving, it's damning. 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:36.400 And that's why it's so serious. 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:37.759 So Lisa, welcome. 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:39.039 Thank you for having me here. 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:41.520 If you don't recognize her, you probably went around this weekend. 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:43.120 So we're we're glad you're here. 00:02:44.000 --> 00:03:04.479 Um give us uh just some brief kind of summary of uh you're on this platform because God did some, I guess really some work of suffering and cause you to confront belief gaps, and that out of that work, he's using you. 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.039 Okay, let me invite others to join me in this. 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:12.319 Yeah, so this is a a story that was totally unexpected in my life. 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.400 I've been a flaky artist my whole life. 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:22.400 I never dreamed that I would be in front of an audience talking about apologetics and theology and false gospels or any of that. 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:24.240 But I grew up in a Christian home. 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:27.520 Uh, as the pastor mentioned before, my parents gave me the gospel. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.400 I've loved Jesus as far back as I can remember. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.080 Even as a child, I knew that the Bible was God's word. 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:43.199 I may not have been able to articulate that intellectually why I believed it, but I just knew in my bones that I could live my life by God's word. 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:51.360 And so I was very involved in ministry growing up, and then of course went into uh the contemporary Christian music industry for a while. 00:03:51.439 --> 00:04:01.199 And it really wasn't until after all that that Zoe Girl came off the road, and my husband and I began attending a church in the heart of the Bible Belt, Middle Tennessee, where we were living. 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:06.800 And the pastor of the church invited me to be a part of a really small study and discussion group. 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:08.800 And he said, this is going to be like seminary. 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.840 You go to this class, you'll come out on the other side with this seminary-level education. 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:31.759 And what I didn't know at the time, and I wouldn't learn this until really just a couple years ago, was that the pastor had already been through the process of deconstruction, which Pastor Neil mentioned earlier, and he was hoping to convert his audience, his congregants, to progressive Christianity. 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:33.439 And he was very good at it. 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:43.680 And so over the course of the time I was in the class, all the things that I had believed about God and Jesus and the Bible were picked apart and explained away. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:49.360 And after we ended up leaving, it really threw me into my own faith crisis. 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:54.800 All the doubts that he had planted had been just kind of festering in there and they took root and they grew. 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.639 And I found myself sort of snowballing into my own deconstruction. 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:11.439 And so it wasn't until uh I cried out to God, I just said, Lord, if you are everything I've ever thought you were, if Christianity is real, if this is true, then please send somebody who can answer these questions. 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:34.399 And long story short, through a really providential series of events, I discovered the study of apologetics and theology and church history and archaeology and science and all these different disciplines that came together to convince me and persuade me intellectually now that the Christian worldview is true, that the historic claims Christian Christianity makes are actual. 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.720 They are, they exist in reality. 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.279 And so then the Lord led me to help others with that as well. 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:50.959 And so the relevant point, though, is how this touches on progressive Christianity, is that the church that I was at where this all happened, years later, they rebranded themselves. 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:58.240 They took down the Apostle and Nicene Creeds, they wrote their own creed, and then they said, we are now a progressive Christian community. 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.879 And so that's when I thought, okay, I really want to study this. 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.279 I want to know how do we identify and define progressive Christianity? 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.480 And so that's the journey the Lord's had me on since then. 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.720 And so this is the only guy in the whole world that's doing this, only church that's teaching this. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.279 Um we only need to talk about this one guy, is that right? 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.160 Yeah, that's that's yeah, you got nothing to worry about, right? 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:20.879 Uh but really it's pervasive. 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:27.040 And the uh where is where are we likely to encounter progressive Christianity? 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:36.319 Well, actually, maybe pause and say, so progressive Christianity, is this like a uh this is an okay version of Christianity, or is this is this a misnomer? 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:37.600 Is this not Christianity? 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:38.480 Yes. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:44.560 So uh let's let's take a moment, maybe define it so people can can understand what we're talking about when you use the the phrase. 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:52.399 I use the term histor um sorry progressive Christianity because that's the term that progressive Christians use to describe themselves. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.519 And so for the sake of clarity, so that everybody knows what we're talking about, that's why I use the term. 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.639 Although I would argue it is not Christian, and it's not even progressive, it's regressive. 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.600 And yet this is the term that's used, so that's why I use it. 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.600 But no, it's it's actually not Christianity. 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:20.399 Many people are sort of under the impression that progressive Christians are just a group of Christians who might be focusing more on grace, or they might be changing their minds on some political issues or some social issues. 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:32.079 But what I hope to communicate and through my book and through the through the speaking that I do is that this is not just a group of Christians that might just be embracing the messy authenticity of their lives right now. 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:36.720 This is a completely different description of God. 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.600 It's a different description of Jesus. 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:43.120 It's not a Jesus who can save you, and therefore it's really a different gospel. 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.759 It's that different gospel that Paul was talking about. 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.120 And so to define it, it's very hard to define. 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:57.600 Progressive Christianity is very slippery in the sense that there's a broad spectrum of beliefs that fall under that umbrella. 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.959 It's very fluid, it's constantly changing and evolving. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:06.879 And so it's very hard to pin down just based on what progressive Christians believe, what the movement is. 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.439 The reason it's hard to define is because it just doesn't work like historic Christianity. 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:14.319 Historically, Christians have been creedal people. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:23.439 So even before the New Testament was written, there were these really early creeds that Christians knew, like this is what's keeping us all on the same page. 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:38.159 Well, progressive Christianity doesn't work like that because it's not really so much about what you believe, it's it's about what you do, what causes you're advocating for, what protests you're marching in, what kind of advocacy work are you doing. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:43.120 It's really more of a works-based gospel, not so much a grace-based gospel. 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:49.440 And so just to succinctly define it, I would say that progressive Christianity is a movement. 00:08:49.519 --> 00:09:02.960 It's a group of people coming up and out of the evangelical church who are open to re-examining, redefining, and in most cases rejecting core essential definitions of Christianity. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.799 I'm talking about the essential doctrines of the faith. 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:12.799 So you mentioned uh it's it's actually not progressive, it's not Christianity, it's regressive. 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.679 Is it regressing to uh I was king of my life? 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:17.679 I thought Jesus might be king. 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:19.039 No, I'm king of my life. 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:20.159 Is that the regression? 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.519 Well, you could regress it all the way back to the Garden of Eden. 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:31.919 It's very interesting to me that when the serpent approached Eve in the Garden of Eden, his question was, did God really say? 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.320 And so he was questioning the word of God in the garden. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:42.960 Now it's very interesting if you fast forward to that same serpent trying to tempt Jesus in the wilderness in Matthew 4. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.200 Jesus, he says, you know, if you're the son of God, turn this stone into bread. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:49.759 And Jesus, how does he, how does he fight? 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:55.440 He fights by using the authority of the scripture, but then the devil quotes scripture back to Jesus. 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.039 He says, It is also written. 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.879 And then this time the devil's not really asking, did God really say? 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.000 Because he quotes the actual scripture correctly. 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:07.440 But this time the serpent was asking, did God really mean? 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.840 Because he was trying to twist the interpretation of that when he tried that with Jesus. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:18.559 So I think you can regress this thing all the way back to the Garden of Eden, trace it through, but even just go to the inception of Christianity. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:23.039 Uh, Jude says to contend for the one faith. 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:24.399 There is a one faith. 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.279 It's there's not, you can't just do whatever you want and call it Christian. 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:28.960 There is a gospel. 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.440 Paul warned against a different gospel. 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:32.960 So what is that? 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:38.720 And if you go back to the beginning and you define that, that starts to go off the rails almost immediately. 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:49.600 We find Paul and Peter, you know, getting into a little squabble over, you know, how Peter was sort of being intimidated by some of these people that were bringing in a more works-based gospel. 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.399 And Paul had to oppose Peter to his face. 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:58.240 So we see this sort of heretical movements pop up from the very beginning. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:11.919 And you can actually look at some of the ancient heresies, like the the circumcision party that we find there right in our New Testament, early Gnosticism, which really you were saved by knowledge, not by grace. 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:20.559 And you can trace through all of these church hist the heresies of church history, and you can find seeds of of those things in progressive Christianity. 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.799 So I think that's what I mean when I say regress, if it's regressing back to old heresies. 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:34.080 Um Peter is uh he's fearing the Jews. 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.080 And so what what would be appealing to us? 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:43.519 What would trick us into a kind of embracing or or just kind of side hugging progressive Christianity? 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:45.039 That's a good question. 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:56.000 Well, I think the temptation is because in progressive Christianity, you're not gonna get in trouble with culture because they affirm all the same things that culture does. 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:01.840 They're gonna be right in line with culture when it comes to things like gender and sexuality. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:18.960 So imagine how tempting that would be, especially for a younger generation who is growing up being told, not only are you wrong if you believe what the Bible says about sexuality, but you're actually hateful and harmful and you're actually hurting people. 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:25.759 Like when I was in high school, if you held to a biblical sexual ethic, they might have thought you were old-fashioned or a goody two-shoes or something. 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:32.639 But kids today are being told you're actually causing people to become depressed and to harm themselves. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:48.639 And so the pressure to capitulate on those things, but still maintain the Jesus part, the Christian part, I would imagine is just overwhelming because you can be a progressive Christian and basically you're not saying anything different than the world is saying. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:54.720 So in addition to social pressure, what are what are the ways that uh we encounter progressive Christianity? 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:56.480 What are the ways that it comes to us? 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:01.039 Well, this is a fascinating question because it's really, you mentioned it's pervasive. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:02.399 It really is everywhere. 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.200 And I think a little bit of history might help us understand this. 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.759 So does anyone remember the emergent church back in the late 90s, early 2000s? 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:11.039 Anyone remember that movement? 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:12.559 We got two people. 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:14.000 Good job. 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.440 Yeah, it's okay. 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:27.279 Well, this was a movement that a bunch of church leaders came together to basically reassess the methods the church was using to reach a culture that had really changed in a lot of ways. 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:33.360 And so in the beginning, you had people who were more theologically liberal and people who were more theologically conservative. 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:47.519 Well, then there became a clash between the conservatives and the liberals because the liberals they didn't really want to pin down what Christianity was, they didn't want to have a belief statement, and they were kind of leaning toward those sort of theological conclusions. 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:54.480 And so the conservatives were kind of pushed out of that movement, but then the conservatives pushed the emergent church out of the evangelical church. 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:56.879 There's all this sort of battles going on. 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:03.679 One example of this, do you all remember when Rob Bell wrote the book Love Wins that questioned the doctrine of hell? 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.840 And John Piper famously tweeted, farewell, Rob Bell, right? 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.399 That was like the tweet heard round the evangelical world. 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:21.360 And so I think things like that were successful in pushing that stuff out of the evangelical church, but that happened right at the same time of the rise of the social media platform on the internet. 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:24.480 So it's not like the emergent church really went anywhere. 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:34.080 They were just sort of forced online, but they grew massively while all the people in that movement were still attending more conservative evangelical churches. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.240 So then it was coming into those churches. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:42.080 So progressive Christianity doesn't show up on your church's doorstep and say, Hi, we're progressive Christians. 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:43.600 We'd like you to think like us. 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:54.399 No, it happens really on the grassroots level, through a small group level, maybe a new pastor higher, and it kind of all trickles down and sort of the little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:03.360 And so today we have major Christian publishing houses, publishing books that are written by progressive Christians. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.320 So you might go to a Christian bookstore and pick out a book that looks good. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:14.399 There's a really good chance it's written by a progressive Christian because there's no real lines of distinction in those sort of bigger categories. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.039 All the time down my social media newsfeed, I'll see conferences. 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:34.080 Well, you'll have one or two really solid Bible teachers and then one or two completely openly progressive Christians, and that's very confusing to someone like me who, you know, because I study the movement, for but for the average Christian, they may not be aware. 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:39.919 Maybe that biblically sound speaker isn't aware of who this other person is and what they're actually teaching. 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.240 So it really is so pervasive. 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:51.120 It's it's virtually in every church, it's in virtually every uh publishing platform, uh social media site. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.039 I mean, it's very, very difficult to completely root it out of everything. 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.879 It's in music, Christian music supposed. 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:58.720 Oh, it's huge in Christian music, yes. 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:07.360 So as a as a you know, former performer artist, as an author, do you get angry at these musicians and these publishing companies and the authors? 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:08.559 Like, do you want to fight them? 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:13.360 Well, it was funny you asked me this in the first service, and I was like, no, not so much anger, but then later I got a little angry. 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:14.639 So I think you are angry. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:19.360 No, I think I don't feel angry, I feel frustrated. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:42.960 It's very, very frustrating to me when I see a trusted, time-worn, respected Christian publisher start publishing books that teach that Jesus is really just a model and example of somebody who grabbed hold of this divine Christ consciousness, and we can all do the same thing. 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:48.080 I mean, it really frustrates me because you think that they should know better. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:49.120 They really should. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:57.039 But again, you have so many different departments, different person might be acquiring this author, and then the higher-ups may not even know about it. 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:09.279 So there's just so much going on, but I do feel I do feel frustrated, and I think there is a righteous indignation that rises up when you think that there is some duplicity on uh like intentionality in that. 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.920 I think there are progressive Christian leaders who know exactly how to talk to evangelicals. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:19.759 They know how to use the words that make you relax, but they have different definitions for those words. 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:30.720 They know how to present something to where if you're progressive, you can filter it through that label, but if you're more conservative, you can filter it through that label, and everybody's happy and nobody's offended. 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:37.039 So I think stuff like that is is probably frustrating and maybe a little bit of righteous indignation rises up. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.079 And that last category of those who they're pretty aware what they're doing. 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.119 Um, these are the wolves preying upon the sheep. 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.920 These these are the enemies of the church. 00:17:48.400 --> 00:18:00.559 Yeah, and it's I mean, I know that feels uncomfortable to say something like that, especially in a culture where one of the greatest virtues is this idea of tolerance and like just be nice. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.920 Like we all just it's really important that we're all just really nice, right? 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:05.599 That's kind of where our culture is at. 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:13.920 So to hear somebody go around calling people wolves sounds very shocking, but remember, those are the words of Jesus. 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.759 Jesus predicted that there would be wolves come in. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:25.200 He said they're gonna look like sheep, they're gonna act like sheep, but Jesus said inside they're ravenous wolves. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.839 And he said you'll recognize them by their fruit. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:41.279 And when you look biblically what Jesus meant by fruit and what the whole New Testament lays out, good fruit and bad fruit, good fruit is not just something that makes you feel happy or at peace in your life. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.559 Good fruit is obedience to God's word. 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:53.680 So if there's a teacher coming in that's advocating for sin or making you feel okay about your sin, according to Jesus, that's a wolf. 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.559 And we have a lot of those in progressive Christianity. 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:03.119 Now, there certainly may be a measure of self-deceit where maybe they are very sincere about what they're teaching. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.000 They really believe what they're saying is right and good. 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:13.359 But the message that they're preaching is is a message that's going to lead you away from the real Jesus. 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:26.480 You mentioned for uh especially young people, this pressure to um approve of everything, or you know, you do your life and just you know, let's let's be friends, let's not ever have conflict. 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.200 What does that look like for old for grandparents, for uh other adults? 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:37.279 How are they experiencing kind of this social ether of progressivism? 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:50.400 Well, this is one of the interesting things in researching the movement of progressive Christianity, is you would almost expect that it would be most prevalent among young people, but that's actually not the case. 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.640 It's really everywhere, from the young to the old. 00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:07.920 This is a message that's really catching on like wildfire, because our culture is we I mentioned a postmodern culture in the last service, and I think it's really relevant here that we understand what that is. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.440 We live in a culture that has rejected the idea of absolute truth. 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:16.000 If absolute truth exists, nobody can really claim to know it. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:33.440 And so then when you go around claiming to know what the truth is, especially about matters of God and religion, it's actually considered very confusing and kind of arrogant because our culture as a whole really doesn't believe that you can claim to know what's true. 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.359 You know what's true for you is true for you, what's true for me is true for me. 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:46.640 So this postmodern approach to truth that would just say, look, there nobody can claim to know the grand narrative of everything. 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:53.440 We're all just gonna try to live our truth and do our best, but Christianity doesn't work like that. 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.480 Christianity is rooted in absolute truth. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:01.440 In fact, Paul even said, if Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain and you're still in your sins. 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:10.559 In other words, the resurrection of Jesus has to be an absolute truth for Christianity to even be a tenable worldview. 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:25.839 It doesn't work like other religions where some guy was sitting in a cave or under a tree, received some sort of, you know, transcendent message of rituals that people can do, things that can help them in their lives, and they're like practical steps and things like that, or philosophies. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:36.720 Christianity is not a philosophy, it's it's a gospel message that is unique among all other religions, and it stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus being a real event in history. 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.240 I mean, this is what Paul is saying. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.640 If if Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you're still in your sins. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:49.039 And so for Christians, postmodernism cannot coincide with Christianity. 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.880 So we have to get back to talking about the nature of truth. 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:55.519 Truth is something that lines up with reality. 00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:02.319 Now, we don't always perfectly know what that is, but our goal should be to try to line up with We believe with reality. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:07.680 And our culture, that just sounds like a foreign language to our culture right now. 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:14.559 Will God ever reveal to someone or say something to someone that conflicts with what he's already said in his word? 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:29.359 No, and this is a this is a great question because in progressive Christianity there's this sense in which the people who wrote the Bible, they were just doing the best they could in the times and places that they lived in to figure God out. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.519 And therefore we can look at what they wrote and we can analyze it. 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.759 We can have a snapshot of what those people believed about God. 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:39.279 But we've evolved more. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:41.359 God has revealed more to us. 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:48.720 So we can look back at something that Moses wrote, or we can we can look at Paul and we can say, well, Paul had these biases against women or something. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.799 That's why he said what he said about women, or maybe he had these sexual hangups. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.440 Or I've even heard, you know, maybe Paul was gay, and that's why he was so adamant about homosexuality or something like that. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:07.039 So there's always this sort of psychoanalysis of the biblical writers, which also, by the way, is a very postmodern. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:13.519 Postmoderns don't interact with actual truth claims, they look for the power grab underneath the truth claim. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:15.680 Which is kind of a power grab, actually. 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.920 Which is a total power grab. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:19.119 Yes. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:19.680 Yes. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.119 And so there's there's this sense in which, you know, we've evolved more now. 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.720 So what God might reveal now could contradict something earlier. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.640 That would be progressive Christianity. 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:37.839 But historically speaking, we believe as Christians that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.279 He does not change. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.559 So the eternal truths of God's word are not going to change. 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.599 Certainly, God revealed those things at different times to different people. 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:56.400 Certainly, uh, Paul understood more about, say, the atoning work of Jesus on the cross than perhaps Abraham would have. 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:05.440 But what we mean when we talk like that, and that's called progressive revelation, which is different than progressive Christianity, we're saying it's more like bricks in a house. 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:14.079 So the bricks that, you know, God revealed and then the canon was closed, it was fully revealed, all of those bricks build upon each other to make the same wall. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.880 So there's not going to be a later revelation in scripture that's going to contradict an earlier one. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.559 The Bible is internally coherent and consistent within itself. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:33.839 But in progressive Christianity, you're free to say, oh, I think Jesus disagreed with the prophet, you know, in Hosea, or and Jesus made corrections to things. 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:39.759 And so there's this real disjointed approach in progressive Christianity to God's revelation. 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.400 We have lots of uh tweens and teens in this service. 00:24:44.720 --> 00:25:01.759 Um what could dramatically impact their experience of Christ in the church with respect to I'm in this I'm being baptized in this culture of progressivism, what would you say to them? 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.839 Here's something that would dramatically change the projection of your life. 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:11.599 Well, I mean, if I could just be the boss of every young person, and if I could just say, just do what I say. 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:13.119 Go ahead. 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:26.240 I know I'm not the boss of you, but if I was the boss of you, if I could persuade you to trust the Bible, live your life by God's revealed word, because he did reveal himself to us in his word. 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:44.240 Now, for me as an adult, I had uh a lot of questions about that because in the class that I was in that I mentioned earlier, the pastor was able to intellectually persuade me that not only was my Bible not reliable, but I didn't even have an accurate copy of what they originally wrote. 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:47.200 So this really knocked the legs out from under the Bible for me. 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.680 So there were years where I was studying the scholarship on all that. 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.000 How were the manuscripts copied? 00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.079 How do we know what was originally written? 00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.400 How do we know if we have an accurate copy? 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:04.240 And even if we have an accurate copy, how do we know that it faithfully reveals like, did they tell the truth? 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.880 Did they make it the whole thing up in the first century? 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.119 And so I had to go on a long journey to seek out the answers to those questions. 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:21.759 So what I would say to young people is if you have questions about that, focus on those because God exists and he revealed himself to us. 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:26.079 This is how we get to know him is through the revelation of his word. 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.359 And so if he wants us to know him, he wants us to know him. 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.839 He's actually revealed himself to us. 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.640 Now, I understand there could be doubts and questions about how trustworthy that is. 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:43.200 And I would I would encourage you to ask those questions, go on that journey because there's great answers for all of that stuff. 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:51.279 I studied that stuff for years and came out on the other side more convinced than ever that the Bible is completely reliable. 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:54.240 But I understand some people have to go on that journey for themselves. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:03.279 But my urgency for young people would be focus on the Bible, settle on the Bible, and let the Bible be your authority. 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.039 Does that also apply for anyone who's not a tween or a teen? 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:07.359 Yeah. 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.720 Oh, we got a lot of clap for the clap for the Bible. 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:16.000 Um in your early career, you were a performer, songwriter, singer. 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:17.839 Uh, did you know at that time? 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:23.039 Were you just uh always a nerd and I want to be an apologist, but I'm stuck singing? 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:24.880 Yeah, no. 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.559 I it's it's really funny because I I mentioned earlier I've always been a flaky artist. 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.799 I never saw myself as an intellectual. 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.559 I I mean, my parents, let's just be honest, they were really glad I graduated high school. 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.119 They were like, all right, we got her through high school. 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:40.400 I was just not a good student. 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:41.680 I hated studying. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:43.680 Didn't even I did love reading. 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.759 I always loved reading and writing, but I just didn't apply myself. 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:51.839 And so I didn't think I was very smart to be able to learn all this stuff. 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.440 But I, you know, the Lord is so faithful and so good. 00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:57.599 This was a dream I never could have dreamed for myself. 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.160 I always thought my main thing was going to be music. 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.680 I had a very specific dream for myself with music. 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:11.680 And I'm so honestly thankful and glad that God killed that dream because what I do today is more satisfying. 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:18.799 It brings me more joy and fulfillment than anything I ever did in music, ever, with hands down, without question. 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.880 But I never would have thought of this for myself. 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.440 So that's another thing for young people who are listening. 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:29.599 The world is telling you make this big dream for yourself and break down every wall to make sure it happens. 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.519 You know, don't give up on your dreams. 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:36.319 I think sometimes God wants us to give up on our dreams because it may not be his dream. 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.559 It may not be what he has planned for you. 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:39.680 And you know what? 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:56.240 You can actually live unfulfilled in certain areas like that, like you've got this dream in your heart that's never fulfilled for the rest of your entire life, but you can still have a deep abiding joy in living in the presence of Jesus, knowing that you will be with him forever. 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:57.440 That's the good news. 00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.599 That's the promise we have as Christians. 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:08.319 The world is telling you hustle, fight hard, never give up, make all this stuff happen, run over whoever you have to run over to make it happen. 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.279 But it's also temporary, even if you get that thing. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:20.880 There are major celebrities who will tell you, I wouldn't wish fame and money on my worst enemy because it's not what you think it is. 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.359 And we don't always dream the best dream for ourselves. 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.759 So, especially for young people, it's okay to let your dream die. 00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:34.559 It's okay to live in faithfulness to Christ in a very simple, humble life where nobody ever even knows your name. 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:39.920 And I think that's so countercultural, though, because we live in such a culture of the hustle, right? 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.519 It's it's all about the hustle. 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:48.240 So everything that the father has in his heart for you is more satisfying than everything you had in your heart for you? 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:55.119 What's the relationship between apologetics and worship? 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.599 This is a great question. 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.160 Oh, and I also want to add, can I add one more thing? 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:11.039 Because yeah, I also want to say that if the father's dream for me tomorrow was to completely stop all of this, I would be totally content with that. 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:16.480 Because my satisfaction is not in what I do. 00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:24.799 My satisfaction is in him, and that can happen anywhere in any scenario at all. 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:27.759 You can also amen. 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:32.480 We take amens and collapse, and so now what was the other question? 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:38.480 Uh relationship between apologetics and oh in fact, maybe define apologetics, yeah. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.559 Uh, but a relationship between that and worship. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:42.079 Oh yeah, great question. 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.319 So apologetics is really simple. 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:48.880 It just means giving a reason for what you believe, and everybody does it. 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:56.240 Uh Christians do it, vegans do it, Muslims do it, Buddhists do it, everybody on the internet does it. 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.480 So it just means you're giving a reason. 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:03.680 And actually comes in the Christian sense, it comes from uh, I believe it's 2 Peter 3.15. 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.039 1 Peter 3.15 is also significant, so I always get them mixed up. 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:13.519 But Peter's writing to the persecuted Christians in Asia Minor, and he says, always be ready to give a reason for the hope that lies within you. 00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:18.640 And that word reason that's translated into English comes from the Greek word apologia. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:20.400 That's where we get the word apologetics. 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:22.559 And it means a reasoned defense. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:32.480 So it's not really talking about telling people what Jesus has done in your life, although all of that stuff can be an important component to sharing the gospel, but that's actually not the reason. 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.359 The reason is it's a reasoned defense. 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:41.759 And so we are obligated as Christians to be able to explain these things why Christianity is reasonable to people. 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:43.279 So that's what apologetics does. 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:56.079 It combines disciplines like science, history, archaeology, philosophy, and looks for reasons in all those disciplines to come together to say, hey, this is why we think Christianity is true. 00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:13.279 Now, the relationship between that and worship is that at least in my life, the more deeply I studied these reasons, it also is going to lead you into a deeper study of who God is and his nature and his character and how he's revealed himself in the world. 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:19.279 And so for me, it has created a deeper sense of awe in my worship and it's really deepened it. 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:26.319 Is there a rhythm to uh an experience of doubt, like life transitions? 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:35.359 Is that part of what God's woven into the world to invite us to examine these things and or be fully alive and awake to Him? 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.160 Yeah, I think that we don't need to be afraid of doubt if it's honest doubt. 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.720 I think there are two kinds of doubt. 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:53.200 There's doubt that is seeking truth, and then there's doubt that is just seeking justification for unbelief that's already there. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.839 And I think those are two very different things. 00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:05.599 So in Romans 1, the Bible talks about how everybody who's ever lived can look out into creation and actually know some things about God, about his divine attributes. 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:07.519 And this is why we're without excuse. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.319 So everybody has the opportunity to reject God who's ever been born. 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.319 And so uh I think that Paul works this out and goes all the way into unbelief. 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:23.359 They suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they actually know it, like it's in all of our hearts. 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:28.880 So when we disbelieve, when we engage in unbelief, that's a sin. 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.559 But doubt is different. 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.359 Doubt bubbles up in the context of belief. 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:35.599 You don't doubt something unless you believe it. 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:40.160 And I think we see Jesus being very tender and merciful toward doubters. 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.200 Jude tells us to be merciful toward those who doubt. 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:49.839 And so I think that doubt is actually a healthy part of growing in maturity as a Christian. 00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:55.359 If you have a doubt, if you come across something in the Bible that you're just like, what was that all about? 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.960 That's an opportunity to go deeper with the Lord. 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.799 That's an opportunity to say, okay, Lord, I don't understand this. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.799 This really doesn't seem to line up with what I know about you. 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.079 Help me with this and wrestle with God on those things. 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:10.960 Look deeper. 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.760 Learn about the cultural context that was written in. 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.360 Look at who, you know, who that was applying to and why. 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:25.440 And look, maybe look at some faithful uh scholars, what they've written about that, how they've wrestled with that question and take that to the Lord. 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.280 But I don't think we should push our doubts down. 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.880 When we push our doubts down, they can start to build up and then just all come exploding out. 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:37.280 But but I do think it's important to diagnose what kind of a doubt it is. 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.719 If this is honest doubt seeking truth, you're gonna be fine. 00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:45.440 But if it's just seeking justification for unbelief, that's different. 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.199 So honest doubt, good, other kind is just false nobility, so I can feel good about my sin. 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:59.920 The um what's the balance between thinking biblically, feeling biblically, and acting biblically? 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:02.719 Thinking, feeling, and acting biblically. 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:04.239 Head hard hands. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:05.119 Okay. 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:22.880 Um, so I think that, oh man, everybody, I the only reason I'm saying that is it's such a loaded term, biblically Christian, you know, like a biblical Christian, because even progressive Christians will say, I'm a biblical Christian, because they just use the Bible in such a completely different way. 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:26.960 So I think that first thing is how what we think the Bible actually is. 00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:31.199 Uh, the Bible is our authority, it's the inspired word of God. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:41.599 When in that verse where it says all scripture is inspired by God, that word inspired by God is three words in English, but it comes from the Greek word uh theostanus. 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:45.920