The Tony Steuer Podcast

The Tony Steuer Podcast with Ilene Slatko: Mastering Your Money Mindset

April 16, 2021 Tony Steuer
The Tony Steuer Podcast
The Tony Steuer Podcast with Ilene Slatko: Mastering Your Money Mindset
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The Tony Steuer Podcast
The Tony Steuer Podcast with Ilene Slatko: Mastering Your Money Mindset
Apr 16, 2021
Tony Steuer

“Start with your vision. Write down what a day in your life in retirement looks like, and describe it in the present tense (today). This will guide you in the choices you make. ” - Ilene Slatko. 

In this episode, I spoke with Ilene Slatko, founder of DSS Consulting about the importance of mastering your money mindset.  We also discussed challenges for women with financial literacy and how women can get on the right track (financially).

Bio: Ilene Slatko is the Founder and Principal of DSS Consulting. Ilene is also a speaker, coach, and consultant.  DSS Consulting provides clients with behavioral and financial decision-making strategies. Through seminars, webinars, her Money Masters program, and an online library of financial programs, Ilene takes clients through various aspects of their financial journey. 

Show Notes Transcript

“Start with your vision. Write down what a day in your life in retirement looks like, and describe it in the present tense (today). This will guide you in the choices you make. ” - Ilene Slatko. 

In this episode, I spoke with Ilene Slatko, founder of DSS Consulting about the importance of mastering your money mindset.  We also discussed challenges for women with financial literacy and how women can get on the right track (financially).

Bio: Ilene Slatko is the Founder and Principal of DSS Consulting. Ilene is also a speaker, coach, and consultant.  DSS Consulting provides clients with behavioral and financial decision-making strategies. Through seminars, webinars, her Money Masters program, and an online library of financial programs, Ilene takes clients through various aspects of their financial journey. 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Tony Stewart podcast, presented by paperwork. Be prepared for life .

Speaker 2:

I'm pleased to be joined today by Eileen Slatkin. Eileen is the founder and principal of DSS consulting. Eileen is also a speaker coach and consultant DSS consulting provides clients with behavioral and financial decision-making strategies through seminars, webinars, her money masters program, and an online library of financial programs only takes clients through various aspects of their financial journey . Eileen, welcome to get ready.

Speaker 3:

Thanks Tony. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Glad to have you. Thanks for joining me. So, you know , let's dive in, this is where I always like to start. Uh, can you tell us, what is your origin story? How did you get started in financial literacy for women?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. And it's a little embarrassing , uh, only because I wish I had a pure motive when I started, but the truth is it was a way to , um, dive into my financial business. I was a trained stockbroker originally with a large wirehouse. And back in those days, the process was what we called smile and dial. So we were expected to, you know , make 200 calls a day or what have you, and try and find clients. And I thought, Oh, Oh no, no, absolutely not. I, I can't do that. So it made about the time I was going into training and trying to pull all this together in terms of how I was going to get business. Um, we had three men in my family pass away in a period of four months. And so the three widows, my mother, my grandmother, and an aunt, all of varying income , uh, all of varying education , but all of them had problems with managing the portfolio and knowing what to do next. And I just saw that this was an , an opportunity. This was a need waiting to be filled. And so I began to focus my business on working with women and wrote my first program, which was women in their money. And , um, it was so successful. My sales manager never bothered to bug me about getting on the phone and smiling and dialing stuff. That was, you know , then it, what turned out was that I loved working with, with the women, you know, I loved , um , seeing their change and empowerment when they realized that they could do whatever, you know, it was that they didn't think they could do. So for instance , um, I don't know, a year or two after I had done my last program , um, I was out of the shopping center or what have you and a woman comes up to me and she says, Eileen, I'm sure you don't remember me because I know you had lots of women in your class, but I took your women in their money program. And I really had wanted to get into investment real estate. And I just didn't know how to do it. She said, but you told me I could do it. And you told me the steps to take and equals and I own investment real estate now. And it's because of you. So thank you. And, you know, I love that story. Not because I'm so great, but because there are very few times in life where I think at least in my experience where people come back and say, this is how you've impacted me now. And so that was the , it's a great story because someone did, they found me and said, thank you and told me how I impacted them. So anyway, that's, that's how I got started in it.

Speaker 2:

What , uh , you know, I love that. I think that's so important that you know, that you're able to make a difference and that you were able to hear that at some point, because we oftentimes don't know if we make a difference.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, and, and that's what motivates me now. And to be , um, you know, to be very clear with everyone , uh , you, and, you know, your , your , um, listeners, I no longer sell products. So I took myself out of being licensed and registered several years ago when I decided to go full , um, full force into just providing training, coaching, and consulting in this. So I didn't ever want to cross the line and have someone say, well, wait, I thought you mentioned that I should be buying, you know , fill in the blank. I'm like not ever doing that. So , um, yeah, I love it. And I hope to make a difference,

Speaker 2:

But you do. Um, I think moving forward the discussion about financial literacy, especially the discussion of financial literacy for women is so important. Um, you mentioned the widows earlier. Uh , I I've heard that story so many times about women who become widows and all of a sudden, it's like, what do I do , uh , financially speaking of course,

Speaker 3:

Right. And unfortunately, you know, when I, when I started doing my program was a number of years ago and I would have hoped by now, the statistics would be different, but in fact, the statistics are still fairly similar to what they were back in the late eighties, which is, you know , uh , women earn way less than men. Uh, so there's this huge lifetime earnings gap, dementia traditionally rely on partners or parents. If they're single women, they rely on other people to help tell them what to do and direct them. And so while, you know , while all those years have passed, not much has changed in the landscape of, of women and financial literacy, which is why that's where my focus is .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, I am glad you're out doing it. Um, and that's what this podcast is about is hoping it , hoping to move the financial literacy conversation forward. So as we go into it , uh, can you please share with us about your financial philosophy?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so my financial philosophy is somewhat nonfinancial , uh , in its, in its , um, beginnings. Anyway, I mean, I believe in living a , what I call a small life and people always look at me funny when I say that, but that's, you know, living below your mates , um, paying yourself first and exercising, you know, all the, all the rules that we hear all the time, you know, about pay your bills on time, maintain good credit, pay yourself first, all that . But the core of my financial , um , uh , um , philosophy is commitment to yourself to knowing what it is you want, and then having courage to continue to do that, even when it's not so easy to do. Now , I think that what's missing in a lot of conversations is , um, what is it that you want to, what, what are your goals? You know, it's easy for someone to say, well, I want to have money to retire comfortably. Okay. But what does that look like to you? And so , um, my philosophy is let's get clear on what your goals are. Let's get clear on what your commitment is. Let's get clear on some of the things that stand in the way when I call , um, your stories. Other people might call, you know, your limiting beliefs, but so the, the crux of my financial philosophy actually is less money oriented and more mindset oriented.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's fantastic. Uh, I think that's so important is to be driven by the goals and that's where the conversations should start as so much. And you came up through the brokerage house, the , you know , uh, the wirehouse has it's product driven so often rather than people driven .

Speaker 3:

Oh, absolutely. It , you know, and I can't speak to the wirehouses now. Um, but certainly back then, you know, it was, you will sell this many bonds. You will, you know, this much in the IPO and you're like, well , I don't have clients that that's good for him . Like we don't care

Speaker 2:

Very different mentality .

Speaker 3:

Yeah . So , um, anyway, I'm happy to be on, on this side of it now. Um, I know we had a , uh , conversation , um, you know, before we , we went live and , uh, I mentioned to you, I think , um , this just by way of further explaining this, that, that , uh, I'm a coach on a financial literacy app. I do believe in giving back to the community. So I do add , and , um , you know, working with some , um, underserved teens and young adults up in the massive Boston and greater Boston area. But , um, uh, on, on the financial literacy app, I had a younger woman ask , uh , she said, puts out a question to the community and says , um , if I have this 401k and, you know, equal buckets, and I'm not sure that that's the right thing, so what do you guys think I should do? And right away, people started telling her, we'll get rid of the bonds. You're too young or go all into, you know, this kind of a funder, that kind of a fund. And I said, no, you're asking the wrong question. You're never going to get at the right answer until you ask the right question. The right question is, what do you want? What's the goal? What's your risk tolerance? You know, you've got lots of time, which is great, but if you're going to get nervous every time the market has a hiccup, you know, we need to, you need to take that into account. And , um, so anyway, I , I, I believe that it all starts with sort of knowing what you want. And then, like I said before, just being committed to stick with it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Or that it's so important. And I love the part about giving back , uh , because there's so many people out there that can't afford , uh , typical financial consulting or financial planning. So it's, it's nice that there's those opportunities. Plus for somebody who may just stop one or two questions and you don't need the full service. Um, so as we talk about assets, one of the things you say, and I love this is what do you mean by our greatest asset is our mindset about money.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Um, thanks for the opportunity. Ask this, because this really does get at the core of my programs and my coaching and consulting. We, we , um, we are raised in a family that has its own story about money. And before we even know what money is or how we can use money before we're old enough to really contextualize and conceptualize it, we hear at the dinner table. I can't believe you bought that. We don't have the money in the bank, or I'm really worried about paying the mortgage this month, or, you know , let's go on this fabulous vacation. And , you know, so we're raised with this. We don't even know what all what it means necessarily, but somewhere in our brain, we have these stories. And so when we get out into the world on our own, these stories, and, you know, before that, even as teens walking around the mall and, you know , spending on silly things, what have you, but he's stories keep replaying in our head. So we get a , we get a job and we think I should really , um , do some , this retirement account. I should put money into the 401k. And then we have this little voice in our head that says, you know, money is really hard to manage. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to, I don't, I'm not good at math. I don't know how to do investing. Um, and then we get all upset about that. You know, we, we get some emotional thing going with it, right. And then that translates into , um, my action, which is going to be maybe making the wrong choices, because I'm afraid because the mind, you know, the little voice in my head keeps saying, you don't know what you're doing, know , pick something safe. Money's hard to come by what, you know, whatever those stories are. Right? So then the result of those, that mindset, because that's really what it is. Those stories are my mindset. So the result of all that and all of that talk and all of those emotions is that I'm probably going to pick the wrong action. Now I have the wrong results or the results that I don't really want. We have to then just compound that little voice in my head, which says, see , you don't know what you're doing. Money's hard to manage. Money's hard to come by. You know, you don't, you don't know math, you don't know investing whatever the story is. And so I believe that we have to start with that mindset. Like what's holding you back. What are those limiting beliefs? What are those stories? And so one of the things that I always say to people, I do, I won't do it to you, but I tell a story in most of my programs, I start with a story to prove to people that you can actually change the outcome. If you change the story.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's powerful because people do have those stories and those backgrounds. And I think that's also something that can be missed in the financial community is that people, you know, one, they haven't learned maybe some specific financial lessons, but they also have these preconceived notions about money and what they can do. And I think it goes back to what you were talking about with the widows. And I'd like to go back to a follow-up question with that. What are some specific challenges for women with financial literacy?

Speaker 3:

I think there are two primary issues and one is sort of the inculturation. Like we do grow up still. And the statistics support fewer more than used to be, but still fewer women graduate with degrees in STEM. Right. And , uh , even fewer go pursue careers in STEM. So that goes back to being a little girl. And I was one of those. I grew up thinking, I am so bad at math. I got to get out of math as soon as possible. Um, and so embarrassingly, my last math class, I think was algebra one, algebra one, and then geometry. I think that was the order. That was it. That was my last math class. So when I went into the financial field, people were like, wait , but you, you don't know anything about math. I'm like, yeah . But put a dollar sign in front of it. Now it's those X's and Y's , that were driving me crazy. But so some of it is that inculturation where we're raised with that. You're not good at this. You don't know how to do this. And so we, we sort of walled at eight, so that's part of it. And then the other thing, I think that is more real life. I mean, real life for working women is this whole gender pay gap that , um, I just heard an amazing statistic today. So I've always used the statistic that over a lifetime of working, the average woman loses almost $9,000 there to the average man . It's just funny that she hasn't earned because she started at a lower rate at a lower job, whatever the cause is , you know, we're earning 80, 82 cents on the dollar. And so , um, if you get a 10% or a 5% or a 3% raise, whatever it is, you know , uh , or your next job is based on what your previous salary was, you're always going to be behind over a lifetime. It's about $900,000, but I just heard today, hold on , make sure I got at, in total women on, on an average annual basis, lose $500 billion a year to the gender pay gap. Enormous. And so what that means is that for women and women live longer, right on average, we live five years longer. So we earn less, we , um , have this voice that says, don't know what I'm doing, and it comes to my money or my investments. Um , and the money has to last longer because we earn less, our social security is less. I mean, so all of those things together means that it's extra important for women to be serious and take appropriate risks in investing, which is why financial literacy is so very important for women.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah. I can see that, you know, you hear about the statistics and sometimes it just doesn't really sink in. Um, the reality is, and it's so sad that it's still a reality after all these years, people are aware of it, but it doesn't seem to change, unfortunately.

Speaker 3:

And , and this year has been so, so bad for women. Now , women have lost the majority of jobs. Um, you know, women, women owned businesses have closed at a much higher rate than male owned businesses. Women still perform the majority of caregiving, even if they've been one of the , um, primary earners in the family. And now this last year, right. Kids are at home. Um, so you're , you know, a lot of women duty and it's been too much for some women. And so they've had to drop out of the world. So that's , that's why.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's one of the sad statistics that I've seen is , um, I don't know if it was last week or two weeks ago, but there was one week where there were 140,000 jobs lost and it was almost a hundred percent women

Speaker 3:

That's that was the month of December, a hundred, hundred and 40,000 jobs lost about 40,000 gain . So there was a net, a hundred thousand dollars , a hundred thousand dollars loss. All of our women

Speaker 2:

Incredible.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, me too. Me too.

Speaker 2:

So with that said, how do you help women get on the right track? What advice do you have for women?

Speaker 3:

Um, take a class, learn about the basics of financial literacy, at least be fluent in the language so that you understand the skin reward, you understand the why is behind, you know, it being so important. You understand the difference between an individual stock and , and a mutual fund or an individual bond and a bond fund and the different kinds of bonds and the different kinds of retirement accounts. And, you know, growing up in the , um, in the wirehouse industry, right, as a, one of the things that the one Cardinal rule was, you could never guarantee anything. And so I always laugh that I had there's one exception, right? When I talk about a company match in a 401k or four Oh three B or whatever, I'm like, that's guaranteed money. That is 100% growth every year. You know, if they're going to match 3% and you don't put 3% in, you've just lost. So at least I would say to women become fluent in the language, in so many cases , um, B because of what we've discussed, you know, they need extra help. Um, and even women. And I , I will tell you, it doesn't matter. Um, I've got clients who have plenty of money. They are managing it on their own. They're not short, all that. They're doing the right thing. Um, they would like to continue to manage it themselves, but they need reassurance. They need someone to check it. They need some coaching around it. They need some consulting around it. Uh, I've worked with people who are just starting out and they need help budgeting. They need help understanding that a budget is not definitive budget helps you find money that you'd like to find that you can put your better use. You know , um, it's not like being on a restrictive diet, but let's figure out if you, if you say you want this and let's figure out where in your monthly spending and income, we can find money to put aside that , that you can accomplish. So, you know, I would say that , uh, as in most areas of life, right, we can all use a support system. And for many people that comes in the form of taking classes, excuse me, or, or having a coach or consultant to help them.

Speaker 2:

Well, education is truly knowledge is power, right?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Well, you know, it's interesting. So I say that now, I just used that in one of my quick courses. And I said, you know, everyone says knowledge is power, but the truth is that the behavior change is what's . Right. Yeah .

Speaker 2:

I , I like that. That, that's a great addition to it.

Speaker 3:

You've seen people, you've seen people in your business, I'm sure over the years, right. That you explain why this product or this approach is better for them. You know, why, what you're suggesting is what they need to do. And they sit there and they go, great, thanks. Yeah. We're not going to do that. Right. So the knowledge has to be coupled with the change in behavior.

Speaker 2:

That's true. And I think the dieting analogy, I like the dieting analogy because I think when it resonates with people, but I think it's also, you know, that same thing is, you know, you can lose 20 pounds easily in two weeks or a month, but it's keeping the weight off is a change of diet habits.

Speaker 3:

And that goes back to that commitment. So, you know what , here's an , here's a simple thing that I see younger people do. They'll , um , L bet a job their first or second job, and, you know, not necessarily , um, living with a lot of financial resources on a monthly basis. So things are a little tight and , uh , then they get , um , but they get used to living like that. Right. And then they get a promotion and right away, first thing they do is I'm going to get a bigger apartment. I'm going to buy more stuff. And I'm like, wait, wait, you've already been used to living at a lower level. Like just put the majority of that money aside, because if you can put the majority of that money on a monthly basis, aside at 25 or 26 or 27, you are so far ahead of the game. And in 10 years or five years, you can pull back a little bit. But if you start spending everything that you're earning now, it's a very hard habit to break now .

Speaker 2:

Well, and I would say that almost ties back into, I , I immediately thought of what you're talking about, women and math and STEM, because, you know, to some degree it's a principal compounding interest . Like you said, if you start doing it at 25 , it all comes back to the education and financial literacy

Speaker 3:

Yep . Rule of 72, my favorite quick rule, right. That talks about compounding basically. And how quickly you'll double your money. Um, so , uh, yeah, absolutely. Uh , you know, there's, there's so many parts of this and, and, you know, the whole goal is, you know, in, in financial advisory or financial planning is to figure out how the pieces that work for you it together. And that's where I think a lot of people have a harder time than thinking about it .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I would definitely agree at the fringes is some of the things are relatively, maybe easy, maybe not, but it's all those details.

Speaker 3:

So

Speaker 2:

That said, how do you feel we can improve financial literacy?

Speaker 3:

Well, I absolutely believe it should be bought in schools. So at least that there's the language that people understand all, all kids, it should be. Um, it should be taught in school at early stages, early age, and then repeated on a regular basis with language and concepts that are appropriate that new age. So you might start with young kids and , um , actually using, you know , uh , coins money and helping them to understand what the concept of money is. Uh , when you're in high school, you're talking about budgeting and using real life examples, you know, go to the newspaper, go online. What is an apartment cost to rent here? Now? I don't know how you felt when you saw your first paycheck, but I still remember my first paycheck. I was, you know, in , uh , I was in high school and I got my first real job. I was working at a store in the mall and, you know, earning, I don't know , got three bucks an hour, four bucks an hour, whatever it was back there, but it was way better than the 50 cents an hour as a babysitter. So I was all in, but I opened up my paycheck efforts, paycheck, and I was so excited. You know, I'd worked my 30 hours and I was going to be paid, you know , whatever it was supposed to. And I'm like, okay, I know I had to pay state and local tax. And I knew I had to pay federal tax, but what the heck is, and who's taking money out of my paycheck. Well , that's not fair. You know, no one had told me, you know, there was a gaping hole in my knowledge, my mother left one time and she said, I leave , I need for you to write a check. When the repairman comes, they'll want to check. And I've never seen a checkbook before when I was probably 15 years old. And so the guy's like, here's your bill? And I needed a check. And I'm like , I have no idea what to do. Can you show me? I mean, it's so ridiculous, but if your parents don't talk about it in a positive way, and they have a hard time talking about it in a positive way, their feelings about money are negative. Right. Which is why we need it in school.

Speaker 2:

I , I would agree a hundred percent. And I was just thinking, yeah, I think I was paid that lofty $3 an hour, you know, in high school and getting those checks. And you're like, where's all that money going.

Speaker 3:

I know. I mean, you know , I , um, we didn't talk about, about families or kids before, but I have , uh , I have a daughter has two kids. My daughter is 26. Plus he lives in New York city. And when she first moved to the city, she was doing some babysitting in addition to her regular job. And so she called me after her first evening of babysitting. And she said, mommy , you won't believe it. Um , they were gone for six hours and they wanted to give me a tip and they paid for the Uber back and forth. And I got $90, like $90 for babysitting. I mean, when I started babysitting I 25 cents an Hour,

Speaker 2:

Both good for her, but it is New York city. So yeah .

Speaker 3:

But you know, it's so interesting. Um, because I remember years ago, a client that I had who , um, we talked before about like learning the language, right? So I've had conversations with my daughter about cashflow. He said, I don't really understand. I get paid twice a month. Um, but I always seem to have, I never seem to have a lot of money after my first check. And I'm like, well, of course you don't because the beginning of the month is when you pay your rent. So you have to manage your cashflow. She's like, well, I have the income. I said , yes, but you have to manage your cashflow. That's another part of right. It's another part of younger Tammy . I had a client years ago who came to me and said , uh, it was a guy lawyer. Um , obviously well-educated smart. And he came to me and he said, I'm , I just want you to know I'm very conservative. And I said, great, what does that look like to you? And he goes, I want everything to be 100% safe right now my retirement account is all in CBS . And I said, okay. So you do understand that you're sacrificing in the name of safety, your purchasing power in the future. That's another kind of risk. And he's like, wait, what? And I said, well, you said, but actually you're losing money by the time 30 or 40 years has gone by, you have lost money. That's not safe. It only makes you feel good to open up your statement every month. So, you know, back to the, the concepts that we have to teach, there are just so many concepts. It's an , and there are lots of classes out there now. Um, and , but I think a lot of people don't understand that and regardless of their education level or the income or assets that they have, unfortunately, people stumble into it.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah . Yeah. There's a lot of stumbling with personal finances is I know , uh , the predominance , my career was , um, insurance consulting and I worked predominantly on behalf of , uh, financial planners. And so often a lot of my job was helping people do their insurance purchases. You know , uh, that was a big question is like, okay, my client has all these life insurance policies. They probably need just one. How do, how do we do making those decisions? Uh , so, you know, to close out here's, this is the question I always love to close with is what's your number one tip of being financially prepared,

Speaker 3:

Start with your vision, start with what issue. One of the things I do in one of my courses is I tell people to write down and this, this goes back to how our brains work. And sometimes we need to trick our brains, but write down what a day in your life in retirement looks like. But to describe it in present tense, because there's a really interesting study that came out, that talks about how , um, because our society in so many other societies where there are low rates of savings, talk about talk intensity , right? So I did something in the past or I'm doing something in the future. And for most of us, when we talked about doing something in the future, we're able to not prioritize that. And what this study found was that in cultures, where there are no tenses that they use to describe actions, much higher savings rates, because as they think about it, it's happening. So one of the things I say to people is write down what your day, you know , today's Thursday, the 21st of January. And in retirement today, I fill in the blank and make it as though it were happening today and then reread it on a regular basis so that when you're faced with having to make that choice between doing match or doing less than that, or putting money into a Roth or a regular IRA or whatever choice it is, you go back and you read what it is. I said, I wanted, and of course it can always be changed, but you know, it, it becomes sort of part of how you think of yourself and it's not just it's in the future.

Speaker 2:

All right. That's wonderful. You know, I was just thinking about that. Uh, you know, talking about our first job is like when you're 25, somebody who's 40 years old, that feels like that's ancient. That I'll never be 40 years old.

Speaker 3:

I will have everything together by the time I'm 40, and then you go, Oh, now I'm 40. And I don't have everything began .

Speaker 2:

I think, as you go on and you go, yeah, I have probably less knowledge than I started with. Or at least when you have teenagers and you definitely have less knowledge

Speaker 3:

Certainly in their minds. Yes.

Speaker 2:

So , um, you know, I'll put this , uh , for our listeners and viewers is, I'll put links in the show notes, but Eileen, can you tell us where people can learn more about you and the programs offered by DSS financial?

Speaker 3:

Yes, absolutely. So , uh , the businesses, DSS financial, the website is a DSS, or excuse me, the businesses , DSS consulting, the website is DSS financial dot, and you can click right on the programs and vote individuals. And I have a basic , um, I don't want, I shouldn't say basic, it's a financial literacy program. Um, some people use it to refresh. Some people use it to learn it's called breadcrumbs and it gives you all the information. And then I have , uh , a much more extensive intensive course , uh , called the path that helps you get clear on your mindset. What's holding you back, how to change your behaviors, your beliefs, and put it all together and make it work for you.

Speaker 2:

Well , that sounds great. And I'll definitely put those in the notes. I only, and thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Thanks Tony. It's been my pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And it's been a pleasure. Love learning more. Got you. Um, so thanks again. And , uh, for everybody out there watching and listening, thank you for tuning in until next time.