“Be financially awake and aware of your personal situation, because you cannot be a good steward if you don't know where you're starting from” - Terrell Dinkins
In this episode, I spoke with Terrell Dinkins, President of One Bucket Nation and author of “Secrets of the 800+ Club: How to Raise Your Credit Score, Maintain Good Credit, and Live the Life of Unicorns” about the importance of building wealth one bucket at a time. We also discussed how to raise your credit score and maintain good credit along with specific challenges for women with financial literacy.
Bio: Terrell Dinkins is the President and Founder of OBN Wealth Advisors, which primarily focuses on wealth-building strategies for women. To help close the wealth gap and break down barriers around personal finance and money, Terrell hosts a quarterly series for women entitled: Women and Money Conversation Circle. Terrell is also President of One Bucket Nation, through which she is a wealth empowerment speaker and two-time author. In 2017, Terrell received the Atlanta SMART Woman Award from the Jeannette Rankin Women’s Scholarship Fund. In 2018 she was awarded the Malinda K. O’Neal Entrepreneur Award by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated; and in 2019, she received the Emory O. Jackson Journalism Award and named one of Atlanta’s 100 Women of Influence by the Atlanta Business League.
“Be financially awake and aware of your personal situation, because you cannot be a good steward if you don't know where you're starting from” - Terrell Dinkins
In this episode, I spoke with Terrell Dinkins, President of One Bucket Nation and author of “Secrets of the 800+ Club: How to Raise Your Credit Score, Maintain Good Credit, and Live the Life of Unicorns” about the importance of building wealth one bucket at a time. We also discussed how to raise your credit score and maintain good credit along with specific challenges for women with financial literacy.
Bio: Terrell Dinkins is the President and Founder of OBN Wealth Advisors, which primarily focuses on wealth-building strategies for women. To help close the wealth gap and break down barriers around personal finance and money, Terrell hosts a quarterly series for women entitled: Women and Money Conversation Circle. Terrell is also President of One Bucket Nation, through which she is a wealth empowerment speaker and two-time author. In 2017, Terrell received the Atlanta SMART Woman Award from the Jeannette Rankin Women’s Scholarship Fund. In 2018 she was awarded the Malinda K. O’Neal Entrepreneur Award by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated; and in 2019, she received the Emory O. Jackson Journalism Award and named one of Atlanta’s 100 Women of Influence by the Atlanta Business League.
Welcome to the Tony Stewart podcast, presented by paperwork. Be prepared for life. Welcome to the Tony Stewart podcast presented by paperwork. I'm pleased to be joined
Speaker 2:Today by trail Dinkins Tyrrell's and author precedent and founder of OPN wealth advisors and president of one bucket nation. In this episode, we'll be discussing the building wealth one bucket at a time strategy and trails book secrets of the 800 plus club. How to raise your credit score, maintain good credit and live the life that unicorns Tarell. Welcome to the Tony Stewart podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Tony, for having me.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure to have you, I'm looking forward to this conversation. So am I fantastic? Well, it's, uh, punch on in. Um, so this is where I always start. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about what is your origin story and how did you get started in financial education?
Speaker 3:You know, w Tony, I will go all the way back to childhood. I have actually always had, um, a love for financial education. Um, and I, and I think even as a young child and going into college, my mother always put an emphasis on saving money. So I was always fascinated with compounding, and I know that may sound kind of nerdy, but the whole thought of you putting money away and in that money multiplies. So I've always, so that goes back to childhood. And then when I turned 18 years old, um, I've always been a saver. And by the time I turned 18, I had saved up$8,000. I thought that was a lot for, yeah, by the time I was 18, I had$8,000 in the bank and that was a lot for an 18 year old. Um, so I've just always been intrigued with, um, the power of compounding. So I'm majored in finance in college, I went to Georgia Southern university. I was a finance major and I minored in banking. So I was really a nerd and I've have always loved it. Um, but I think it was really intrusively my fascination with how money grows and how money multiplies, um, and wanting to always share that with other people. So it goes all the way back to childhood, the origin of my store, the origin of my love for financial education and knowing too that if you have your finances in order that you don't ever have worry, you sleep good at night, um, because money isn't everything, but it does make you sleep well at night. And if you have your money in order, you do sleep restful. I sleep great knowing when I, when I don't have any debt. So, um, that whole feeling of financial freedom that comes along with, with money, um, was I guess, pushed me and catapulted me in wanting to learn more about it. And, um, look at the importance of financial education.
Speaker 2:Well, that's great. And I love the term financial freedom because I think that's what people should strive for us to not be, I guess, managed by their money. They should manage your money rather than be managed by their money. Um, I did have a follow-up question. Um, because you mentioned the concept of compounding as a youngster. How did, how did you come across that? Was it your parents or my
Speaker 3:Mom? She w you know, a long time ago that they were, and I was born in the sixties, so I'm really telling my age, but, you know, she always said, if you put money in a savings account, then it will grow. She always talked about making your money growing, you know, back then your parents, they, you know, when especially interest rates were a lot higher, they could get great returns on our certificates of deposit. So she was always, she always talked about the importance of savings. If you put your money away, it'll grow, you'll have something for a rainy day. So that was something that, um, was instilled in me as a young child, especially for, for her daughters. My mother was a, was a widow at the age of 34. My father passed away at 36. So she really put an emphasis on women. She said, you know, you, in case you're alone, because she was alone, she was a widow at an early age. So she really emphasized the importance of saving money, but the whole compounding thing came when she would talk about these CCDs. If you, you know, if you put in a hundred dollars, you may get$110 or it, um, so that was something that I learned about. And, um, she shared with us at a very young age, and that was kind of fascinating that I back put in$1 amount. Then once it matures or reach maturity, then I'll have more,
Speaker 2:What's such a great concept. And it's so foundational. And I'm sure as you've probably seen this, a lot of adults aren't even very familiar with the concept.
Speaker 3:You're absolutely right. We can, but, you know, since this COVID and this pandemic, the savings rate has actually gone up, people are, are saving their dollars. I think I read somewhere that the savings rate had gone up 14%, so more and more were saving money, money. I think it's sad that it took a, uh, a pandemic for people to, uh, understand the importance of saving and paying down debt because people are paying down their debt, uh, and realizing too that they actually had money, that there was actually disposable money available to pay down debt. So I'm hoping that once everything opens up that people will remember the lessons that they learned during the pandemic, that they do have disposable income to invest and to put money in other, um, um, venues for wealth building. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I, I share that same hope and, you know, I think it also, you know, emergency funds are also something I think really people started really taking seriously is like, Hey, I need to have an emergency fund going forward. You know, we've been talking about in financial services industry for a long time, you know, put aside three to six months. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's so important that that's the foundation phone that that's like, um, financial literacy one oh one, I think, you know, everyone says, you gotta have that emergency fund. You have to have the emergency fund because, you know, we, a lot of people lost their jobs and they, you know, encountered this huge emergency and why it's so important to have that money set aside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. It is important. So, you know, you're, uh, the president of one bucket nation. Can you tell us why is it important to think about building wealth, one bucket at a time
Speaker 3:First, I'm going to, I love how you say it, my company name. I want to, um, I'm going to answer your question, but I also want to share the reason or the purpose behind that company name. Um, there is something, if you, if you do some research, there's something, um, magical about your buckets and having buckets for emergency, you know, uh, in biblical times, people would use their buckets to transport food, to pull water. So it, the buckets is, are reminds you, or makes you think about abundance. Um, so I think so I CA I came up with that company name one bucket at a time, um, because it's easy to create wealth, um, in steps. And so that whole premise is to make it easy for people to think about, um, the basics first and then doing a buildup. So one bucket at a time is, um, um, focuses around the steps and the buildup to eventually get to some things that are a little bit riskier. So, um, that's why, why I named the company one bucket nation to create a nation of savers, a nation of people who are starting to, you know, start it from the foundation and create these steps of building wealth, one bucket at a time to get to abundance because that bucket represents abundance.
Speaker 2:And that's such an important concept. And I also notice that your advisory name is OPN wealth advisors. You're committed. So,
Speaker 3:You know, so I got to tell you a little bit of a story about that. So my first initial is, oh, and when I, um, started my, when the, my firm was approved, it was the year of my, and I've, gosh, I'm telling you my age, my 50th or so. So it was a beginning of something new O B M my first initial was, oh, in beginning a new stage in my life, starting from at the age of 50. So, so when I, um, was coming up with the company name, I was like, you know, this is a beginning, I'm beginning a whole new stage in my life and the B in beginning new. And then my first initial, and then I also had this other company, one bucket nation. Um, so I just felt like it was meant for me to have that OBE and because it represented the whole concept of, of one bucket nation and me starting this whole new phase in my life. And I've never seen that with anyone so,
Speaker 2:Well, I noticed that I thought it was actually one bucket. Neisha is you for the wealth advisors,
Speaker 3:My initials. And I was like, okay, this is this, you know, people would probably think is one bucket nation too. So
Speaker 2:Well, I did, I fell for it. So, but it's always interesting, you know, to hear these stories, because I think it gets people thinking about the perspective. And I think one thing that's exciting is that you started a second career and a whole new thing that was fun and exciting, and you're making a difference. And that's, that's neat. It is.
Speaker 3:It really is me a whole new co well, you know, it's, it was me starting going out on my own because I was working for, from before. I worked for a firm here in Atlanta, in the north side of Atlanta and bootcamp for seven and a half years. And then I ventured out and decided to open a mall practice. So I was working with them. I was a contractor because, you know, we're not employees. So I was a contractor with the firm for seven years, and I decided that, um, I wanted to go out on my own because I wanted to do more planning because I wanted, I didn't want to be, uh, be tied to any product, but I really wanted to do more planning because I am very passionate about the financial literacy. And when you're, when you have the freedom to just educate and not have to worry about products, that that's what I, what I love. And, you know, you get a certain age, you, you have the, the financial capacity to do it because in this industry, you know, it takes money to be in this industry. Um, you have to have stopped, you know, startup costs set aside, um, because you don't make money for awhile. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's a hard industry to get your feet, uh, why then pick it, pick up that start. Um, and I love it because, you know, I think the financial service industry should be centered around planning rather than product driven, unfortunately, that, you know, the industry isn't ready to make that shift yet.
Speaker 3:Well, because everybody wants to make money, but, but there's a shift in our industry because I think people are, are, you know, creating, going into my model where they really want to work, um, and do what is in the best interest for the client and educate it's important. I, and I love that part of what I do educating and talking to them about things beyond the investments, like the budgeting part. And I think that is so important to have a budgeting piece when you're creating a plan for a client
Speaker 2:A hundred percent, you know, it's like you have to have a handle on that, so they can take the next steps. As, you know, you have to build your house, you know, from the ground up that fundamental
Speaker 3:First bucket. And, um, and so even with my first book, which was, you know, one bucket at a time, a woman's guide to creating wealth, you know, I talk about these four buckets that every woman should create throughout their lifetime so that it will last them a lifetime. And that first bucket is that, uh, emergency bucket, that cash bucket that you need in case you're in a pandemic, or you lose your job. And, you know, I've had friends, um, in 2020, they lost her job. And I hadn't even had a client who was out of work for a long time before the pandemic. So going into a pandemic didn't help, but she was prepared for this situation.
Speaker 2:That's great. Cause she, she followed the system. Well, the system, she had her mother. Exactly it does work. Um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, your most recent book, uh, you know, so tell us about your book, a secret to the 800 plus club, how to raise your credit score, maintain good credit and live the life. Uh, unicorns. Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I'm really excited about that, that book, Tony. So again, it wasn't my intention, you know, something happens in my life that will, um, say that. We'll just say, you need to write about this. Um, so my new book, um, is meant for people do it yourself first. Um, and then to shut down people that are scam people out of their money because the credit thing is a, uh, it's a huge industry. So many people are vulnerable because of their credit. If you have a low credit score, then you're going to be paying more money for your car. You'll pay more money for your house. You'll be paying more money when you're financing just your everyday purchases, if you use a credit card, uh, and because of that credit score, um, there are so many people out there, out here that are scamming individuals to pay, uh, thousands of dollars to help raise the credit score. Well, I had an over an 800 credit score and I'm like, it didn't cost me thousands of dollars. There were some tricks that I learned along the way that has, has allowed me to not only get an 800 credit score, but maintain a credit score. So the book was written for people who, you know, wanted to do it themselves and not pay someone to help them raise their credit score. Um, it's poor credit is also one of the contributing factors to the wealth gap. You will have people that have poor credit and these people are spending so much more money. Uh, for little things, I, I met this little young, um, guy, he had bought his first car, his interest rate on his first car was 29%, 29%. Wow. Because he needed a car and he didn't have credit. So it's things like that that gets under my skin. I'm sure yours too Tony, because you're just as passionate as I am about financial literacy. So, um, so my goal in my vow is to always write books that will help the everyday person, uh, to build wealth or in, in the case with my brand new book, uh, raise their credit score because poor credit, um, you know, cost you money, but excellent credit we'll provide you, um, our access to lower interest rates you'll have, uh, premium credit cards and greater spending power. And when you have excellent credit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I think that's so important is those are the things I think are often missed in, uh, the financial literacy conversation is it's, it's a very foundational building block that impacts so many other things, your credit score and, you know, um, something I learned from some of the financial planners I work with, it's a G you know, for example, if you save, I mean, you know, this, if you save 1% on expenses, you're getting an extra 1% in return. And so your credit score helps you with your budget because it gives you more cashflow. It gives
Speaker 3:You more cashflow. And here's the thing, Tony, it's not, you know, some people have this misconception that people that are poor have poor credit because they just don't know I've worked with people and I can just kind of, I'm just pulling, putting together their plan. Um, and looking at when, you know, when you're doing a plan, you're pulling documents and looking at the interest rates and guessing that their credit scores is bad, or they have a low credit score. And these are people that may have six figure incomes, but may not have the best credit because they don't necessarily know all of the secrets and how to raise that, that rate up. Um, so, or they don't, they don't even think about it because they have enough money coming in. They don't have to think about their credit. You know, sometimes people are, you know, if you have great income, I don't have to think about my credit because I have the cash and I have a credit card, uh, and I pay it. So I'm gonna have to really think about how much me having the poor credit is costing me each month because I have great cashflow. So it can all almost, uh, um, fool you, I have great cashflow, so I don't have to really worry about my credit. And you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. I mean, you have to look at your financial life holistically and you know, it's nice to see a book Rand about something like that. You know, my first book was questions and answers on life insurance. And you know, it's not an exciting topic, but all the other books on life insurance, we're basically like, you know, you read them and it's like, go buy a whole life insurance policy. I want to write a book that was actually like, people could use it like you to learn something, to help them make a smarter choice. Right.
Speaker 3:And in the, in the book, Tony, I break it it's like a workbook. I actually had a reader who sent me a message saying, I've just finished the first lesson. So I wrote the book like a workbook. So you actually have steps, um, pull your, uh, your credit report, go here and pull this item up, write down, um, your interest rates, you know, get on the phone and call your credit card companies. Because people don't realize you can actually call your credit card companies, um, and ask them to lower your interest rates. I've done that before or call them and see if they have any type of specials that are going on that will, you know, Laurie interest rates right now. I think I have a credit card that has a zero interest. And here's the thing. If you have great credit, you will get these great offers in the mail, because if you're paying your credit card on time, what these credit card companies want is that they want you to, you know, suddenly not pay so that they can make some money off of you. So they, they entice you with these great offers. You know, we'll lower your, your rate down to 3%. If only you will not pay that credit card off, you know, for the month. And then that way we can make some money.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or the balance transfer, they'll send you those checks. Hey, write yourself a check. It's okay. It's very nice to them. Yeah. Credit card companies. Yeah. So, um, you know, one of the things we've talked about and you know, this, this is how we, uh, met through females and finances. What are some of the specific challenges for women with financial literacy?
Speaker 3:And I will not S this is not the case with all women, but for some women, especially women that may have, you know, they got married and had kids and, you know, their spouse took care of the finances. A lot of times women did make a place for themselves at the financial table in their household. So, um, then, you know, divorce, which is high, you get a divorce and then you're, you're, you're starting all over again. So, um, that's one issue not making, uh, not having a financial voice in your household. And I think it's important to have that financial voice, even if it means that, yes, my spouse will take care of the finances, but I know what's going on. And that is an issue. And I've seen that as an issue of, uh, women not knowing what's going on. And that's so important because we're born with the blessing and the curse and that blessing and a curse is that we will probably outlive our male counterparts and the curses will probably outlive our male counterparts. So it, Le longevity could be a curse because you're going to be here a long time alone. And I grew up in a household where my mom was alone at a young age, and she was a widow a very long time before, you know, she remarried, I was an adult before my mother remarried. So I grew up in a household in that situation. So, because I saw it, I knew the importance of knowing how to manage a household in the event that you're alone. And then of course, two women are, we, we typically tend to be caretakers if, um, especially in this pandemic women, you have more women leaving the workforce than men. So we left the workforce, it put us behind if we were making contributions to our 401k plans that suddenly stopped because we left the workforce to stay at home, to take care of the keys. So we typically are caretakers for our children, for our parents. And because we are doing the caretaking, we have less time to build wealth. So that's why that is so important for women in general. Um, if you leave the workforce, you know, figure out a way that you can still contribute it, doesn't always have to be in a retirement account. You can save money in other places.
Speaker 2:Well, that's great that, that that's helpful. And, you know, I mean, the other thing too, is it made me think of the gender wage gap is not only are women living longer, they're earning less money and
Speaker 3:It just creates more challenges. It creates a whole lot of change. We live long, we make less money and I'm hoping not, gosh, close the gap. You know, part of the women's history month, we need to be pushing, closing the gap and that's that wage gap. And you would think it's this 20, 21 that still should not be an issue, but it's still an issue.
Speaker 2:You would think there's a lot of, we could go down a lot of that, but yeah, it's 20, 21 you think. Yeah. But yeah, some things haven't changed too much, unfortunately. Uh, you know, I know even, you know, w with my wife, I think she got a pay increase at her job as a result of a settlement, because the women who had S you know, specific job classification or making less than men with the same job classification. Wow. So she got a nice pay increase in a settlement, uh, because of that. And it's like, seriously, you know, it, if I told you the company name, you would know it, uh, I don't want to call them out, but you know, on my podcasts, but, you know, it's not like they were a little firm, uh, you know, so it's, it is scary. It's still an issue. Um, I think for, uh, people are listening and watching this podcast. It's, Y you know, as trout was talking about with our book is that you need to go out there and do your homework, think about the fastest to your financial life, and, you know, take a look at all these different things, you know, ask questions, learn something, please
Speaker 3:Do ask questions, and don't be afraid. You know, what Google, Google can be. Your best friends were, were out there, ask questions, um, and, and seek out, you know, a financial advisor seek, seek us out. Uh, and in my case, I think Tony, you and I were talking about people feel intimidated about reaching out to advisors. And I understand that. And so I wrote books that, uh, were designed for people who kind of were in the beginning stages. They didn't, they don't, they're not going to, you know, they don't have the money to invest with an advisor, but they can learn about the money buckets, or they don't have money to pay someone to help them with their credit score. So they can figure out how to get the raise, their credit score and be brave enough to, you know, to, um, you know, call the credit card companies to get their interest rates lower, because now they're a better steward with their finances. Um, so yeah, ask questions and seek people out. Don't be afraid. I love
Speaker 2:That. That's, that's a great quote there. Um, so as we're talking about this and, you know, um, how do you feel we can improve financial literacy and financial education?
Speaker 3:That is a huge question. So we, I feel like I know so many people like yourself, we're talking about this all the time, but we don't necessarily know if we're reaching. Um, we're reaching the masses. So I really feel like this should be something, um, done in schools. I feel like schools need to not just have a month on financial literacy, but this needs to be a course. One of the things I think is so fascinating. And I had a, I had a client to say this, that if she saw a time value of money, calculation, that she would have been, if someone had shown her a time value of money calculation, then she would have done a better job early save money. So going back to schools, I think financial literacy needs to be done in school, but not just basic financial literacy people who are students who are interested, they need to see things like time value of money, calculations, that if you put a X amount of dollars away per month, this is what you'll have when you reach, um, you know, retirement age, we need to see more of that. Kids need to see more of that, that needs to be taught in high school. And I've heard, uh, a friend of mine who is a teacher. She said, they're starting to have these classes. Um, but I think people need to know about it while they're young, because everyone's not going to have my, my son can talk to you about a Roth IRA, IRA, because he has me as a mom, but his peers can't
Speaker 2:Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree. It should be just woven into the curriculum. And I know in the state of California, they're starting to talk about that. It's, you know, how do you apply it in your math classes? How do you apply it? And, you know, across the board, but yeah, and the standalone classes is so important. You know, um, kids going off to college are going to be faced with all these issues. And they're being asked to take out these loans that could impact them for 40 years, and they don't have the tools to evaluate the student loans.
Speaker 3:Oh, I not talk about student loans in my book, student loans. Oh my goodness. That can hinder your lifestyle, people that are, uh, and I have a sister who sells real estate young people's that are, I feel really bad for the, the young adults, because they may not ever be able to purchase a home the way we've purchased a home. Um, because they have Sallie Mae on their back, the student loans are taking away their ability to, um, maximize out or maximize the amount of house that they could potentially qualify for because they have to pay back student loan debt. Fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a huge issue that, that that's a whole one on its own, um, student debt. But I, I think for parents, you know, if you have a kid, I know my kids in high school and you know, we're talking to him about that. It's, you know, like, yeah, you can go to any school you want, but there's a price to pay for going to that school is, you know, so you have to think about that as one year factors and choosing your college is, you know, w what do you want to be, you know, your lifetime burden for that crucial
Speaker 3:Conversations, and, you know, what happens, kids change their majors, or they, some of them will decide college is not for me. Um, but we need to have crucial conversations that, Hey, if you go to this school and you take out this long, this is what it's going to cost you when you graduate, because you will have to pay back that loan. Um, and so it's going to eat into your lifestyle. Those could, those are crucial conversations that you need to have. I had that conversation with, with my son saying, you know, let's try to minimize the loans, look at some of the options besides, you know, taking out student loans.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. It's so important. So as we wrap up, um, can you share with us, what's your number one tip on being financially prepared,
Speaker 3:Uh, being financially, uh, awake, uh, of your personal situation, being financially awakened aware of your personal situation, because you cannot, you cannot be a good steward if you don't know where you're starting from.
Speaker 2:That's great. And that gets back to you, get back to your bucket. Yeah. Back
Speaker 3:To my buck. Cause you gotta, you gotta know where you are. I is I, in my book, my first book, I talk about, you know, facing the woman in the mirror, facing the man in the mirror, you need to know where you're starting from. So that's the tip is knowing where your starting point is being awakened aware of where you are, um, at the very moment financially. And then you can stop.
Speaker 2:Definitely. That's what I tell people. I go, you know, there's a reason why on a map, it says, you are here. You have to know where you're starting from, so you can figure out how to get where you're going. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the same is true. Your financial life.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:So Trell, uh, where can people learn more about you in implementing your money bucket strategy?
Speaker 3:Wonderful. Thank you so much for that. So you can go to my website, one bucket, nation.com and learn more about me. And you can find both of my books at one bucket, nation.com as well. And also to Tony, my, my, um, second, my new book secrets of the 800 plus, uh, credit score, uh, has become an Amazon bestseller. So I made the Amazon list and a couple of categories. So it's doing well. You can also find that book on Amazon. You can, you know, put in my name, Tarell deacons and the search bar, or put in secrets 800 and the book will come up.
Speaker 2:That sounds great. I like that secret save hundred and congratulations, I'm hitting the Amazon bestseller list. That's that's thrilling. Um, and for our listeners and viewers is, um, I will be posting links in the show notes. And if you go back to my website, you'll find links to trails books and everything else. So you can connect with her. Um, so Terrelle, um, actually, so speaking of connecting, is there a way where people can follow your work? Would that be through one bucket nation, subscribe to a newsletter and LinkedIn? So if,
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you are interested in, in my work, you can go to my other company website, which is OB in wealth advisors.com OBM wealth, apostles.com, or you can find me on LinkedIn, look, look me up on LinkedIn trail Dinkins, and I'm on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Fantastic. And I'll have all of those links in the show notes. Um, so Terrell, thanks for joining me today. Thank
Speaker 3:You so much, Tony, for having me. This has been great. I love just having a conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Well, myself as well, I'm just honored to be able to talk to you and just to learn something new myself. So give me some new things to think about. So I appreciate your time today and, uh, everybody thank you for tuning in to the Tony Stewart podcast presented by paperwork. Uh, please remember to subscribe until next time.