“Weave learning about personal finance into your everyday life like any other habit, even if it’s five minutes a day.” Chihee Kim
In this episode, I spoke with Chihee Kim, co-founder of Finny about the importance of an education first approach to achieving financial health. We also discussed why Finny uses a quiz-based approach to financial education along with specific challenges for women with personal finance.
Bio: Chihee Kim is a Co-founder of Finny, a game-based personal finance education start-up. Chihee translates her personal and work experience into digestible lessons, with the vision is to create a barrier-free environment, where everybody, regardless of background, has an opportunity to become financially literate. Prior to Finny, Chihee was a member of the client coverage management team at MSCI, a global financial data, analytics, and research company. Before MSCI, she led business development at Lattice Strategies, a boutique asset manager, and was also in wealth management at both Citi’s Private Bank and Merrill Lynch.
“Weave learning about personal finance into your everyday life like any other habit, even if it’s five minutes a day.” Chihee Kim
In this episode, I spoke with Chihee Kim, co-founder of Finny about the importance of an education first approach to achieving financial health. We also discussed why Finny uses a quiz-based approach to financial education along with specific challenges for women with personal finance.
Bio: Chihee Kim is a Co-founder of Finny, a game-based personal finance education start-up. Chihee translates her personal and work experience into digestible lessons, with the vision is to create a barrier-free environment, where everybody, regardless of background, has an opportunity to become financially literate. Prior to Finny, Chihee was a member of the client coverage management team at MSCI, a global financial data, analytics, and research company. Before MSCI, she led business development at Lattice Strategies, a boutique asset manager, and was also in wealth management at both Citi’s Private Bank and Merrill Lynch.
You're listening to the Tony Steuer podcast, where Tony interviews financial literacy advocates who are changing the conversation on money so you can catch up on the latest trends and ideas in the world of financial literacy and education. Presented by Paperwork. Be prepared for life.
Tony:Welcome to the Tony Steuer Podcast presented by Paperwork. I'm pleased to be joined today by Chihee Kim. Chihee is the founder, a co-founder of Finny, a game-based personal financial education startup. In this episode, we'll be discussing how to make learning about personal finance easier, and the benefits of an education first approach to financial health. Chihee, thank you for joining me today.
Chihee:Thank you for having me, Tony.
Tony:It's a pleasure to have you! So I always like to get started by asking people about their origin story what is your origin story? How did you get started in financial education?
Chihee:Yeah after going through school, I had racked up just so much debt, hundreds of thousands of dollars, in fact, and I remember feeling really embarrassed about it and as a result really didn't talk to anybody outside of my immediate family. And I think it was the main reason why I wanted to work in the financial services industry specifically to learn about managing money, one's wealth, and so I spent then the next 18 years or so in both the wealth management industry and the financial data management industry really immersing myself and learning about goals-based financial planning, and also had a hand in creating and managing indexes that are the basis of some of the largest ETFs in the market today. And over the years I had become more and more surprised, and frankly, a little concerned about how basic financial education usually takes a backseat to other priorities and goals of some of the largest financial services organizations I've worked for. And there are obviously some other reasons as well, why financial education usually takes a back seat, especially here in the US. But it's really been my own experience, but personally having been in so much debt, student loan debt and credit card debt, and also having built a career in financial services that helped me kind of work through my own personal finance journey. And that really has been the motivation for me to, to focus on this issue of financial education and financial literacy for a broader population in the US. And I think through, through my experience, I've been blessed to have become, I would say financially independent, if you will. And so working on the idea was really a no-brainer and, and Finny Finny was ultimately born five months ago.
Tony:Oh, fantastic. So what, is this what inspired you to start Finny?
Chihee:Absolutely, absolutely. I was inspired exactly because of that and because I don't believe that finance, personal finance education has to be something that's difficult for people, right. And learning about something as foundational and fundamental as money and personal finance. It shouldn't be, it shouldn't be hard. And I often like to say that learning about personal finance is like ripping out the pages of a chemistry textbook, throwing all the pages up in the air, and telling people to essentially go figure it out. And what happens is that inevitably somebody is going to pick up a chapter 10 before any of the other previous chapters and it's a problem, right. we don't become as empowered about what we know to make right decisions. And because it's hard despite the fact that we can all get access to kind of any information that we want instantaneously, there is an increasing level of financial stress for too many hard-working people in the US and beyond in fact. For example, a younger adults report you know, feeling the highest levels of stress about personal finances than any other segment. And I think the specific stat is at 63% of millennials are, are, are financially stressed. And it, I think it matters a lot because our attitudes about money and personal finance they, they play a huge part in, in just kind of our overall happiness in life. And there are a bunch of other steps that I know the community is probably well aware of and they speak for themselves. Right. And, and Tony, you and I have talked about this just just a little bit ago, 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. In fact, there are more payday loan stores and there are McDonald's franchises in the US, which is pretty, pretty astounding. And more and more Americans are paying bank fees. It's about$1,500 per household a year. And we're, debt is also climbing, right? There's 14, 15 trillion of debt that American households owe that's over a hundred thousand dollars per family. And that number is growing fast. And so living paycheck to paycheck, not having enough savings all of that should not, should not be the norm in our society. And so at Finny we're setting out to make learning about personal finance very easy and fun, and, you know, we're just getting started. So we're really, really excited about the path ahead.
Tony:That's great. Yeah, you're doing some great work at Finny and for everybody watching and listening to the show, I'm going to post a link to ask Finny so you can check it out for yourself. Try your hand at some of the quizzes, see how financially literate you are. I think you hit on something that I really loved the analogy of the personal finance world is basically a bunch of pages thrown up in the air. So at Ask Finny, are you helping people go from chapter one to chapter 10?
Chihee:Yes. And that's what we're absolutely seeking to do. So we launched five months ago with this mission, right. To make learning about personal finance easy. And so what we're offering is a free, personalized, a game-based way of learning education. And let me hit on a couple of the points, right, that are kind of important to making learning easy. It's free because look, education should be accessible to everybody. It's personalized because, you know, everybody's needs are different. In personal finance, there's never a one size fits all. Everybody's situation is unique. It's game-based to remove the barrier to start learning, to keep people motivated, to learn and have fun while you're at it. And I think a key point that I'm about to say is that it's curriculum based, right? So that you're building real life skills. And so each of the quizzes that we've, or lessons that we've built are tagged as basic intermediate or advanced. So that even advanced topic before you get a basic topic and, and we think that that approach will help build the skills that you need atop foundational ones, and keep you engaged while, while learning. And at Finny we're really focused on kind of a younger adult generations age 25 to 45. And our thinking there is that given the financial stress and the challenges that exist today with, with, with the younger populations if, if that particular segment is feeling so stressed, how are they to lead and guide the future kind of younger generations in society. And so that that's been the approach that we've taken. And so, you know, as users come to Finny to learn they'll be presented with a curriculum based on their, their personal interests. And each of the quizzes are arranged in, in a learning path, if you will, so that you don't have to think about what you need to learn next. And each of those quizzes are between five and nine questions. So it takes anywhere between five five to seven minutes to complete. And you, you walk away hopefully with learning and valuable insights that help you make, help users make a better money decisions.
Tony:Well, that's great. I, I've taken a couple of the quizzes th they're great. They can be even a little challenging for me is how did you come up with a quiz based approach? I haven't seen that before in the financial education world.
Chihee:Well when you think about how people who consume and learn personal finance today it's through obviously podcasts and articles and books and those types of mediums, but there has been a lot of research, more of recent that, that states that, you know, when you teach in a quiz based format, retention increases. And so with that, we wanted to make sure to make it kind of engaging that way. And so each of our, each of our lessons are quiz based because of that. And we also make sure to to have a repetitive concepts and when you have it in a fun quiz based format it helps to really make it stick. And we've seen that through some of our data as well, early data. And so like you said, people should just try it out and test it out for themselves to see how it works out for them. And we're always open for feedback on it, but we think it's pretty, pretty engaging and fun.
Tony:Well, that's great. And I think that's really important is I know that so many of us have looked at different financial products and it can be challenging to understand you and I were talking about this pre show is that the financial services industry does not do a good job of making things simple to understand sometimes with intent and sometimes without intent, but it's, it's not an accessible industry. And as you point out it's, this is all foundational stuff. So obviously your education first. Why do you feel that an education first approach is important to financial health?
Chihee:You know, plain and simple, because it really shouldn't take a back seat anymore. And it's unclear that it's, it's known that it does take a backseat, right? And so I think many of us are here to change that. And, you know, it shouldn't be something that you decide to search online one day because you're in a bind or need to figure out how to get cash fast, or get approved for a loan now. And with an education first approach, there's a lot of empowerment that comes with learning and educating oneself, right. It helps you make better decisions. It strengthens relationships you have with your family, your advisors, and your money. And I think the more that we can be loud about education first together and create solutions and a movement around it, we can collectively bring it back back to the forefront. Why, I guess why does personal finance and financial education take a back seat? Right. I think we need to talk about that a little bit to understand so that we can come up with better solutions. And the first that I I'd like to mention is that it's very much cultural, especially here in the US. Right. You know, we love to talk about how much we hate talking about money, right? We're, we're absolutely more comfortable talking about addiction and mental health and marital problems, raised and really kind of everything else. And you know, it's really driven by the fact that it's not taught in schools. I think we all know the stats: less than half of US high schools require students to take a basic personal finance course and a large, large majority of states don't mandate personal finance education. And so culturally and we've maybe inadvertently learned that since it's not something that we learned in school and because it's a taboo topic, right, it's not a priority and it should be right. I think there's another kind of trend as well, that is real and something that we should be cognizant of. And that is that choice overload really is a real thing. You know, how many times have you gone into the grocery store and have had a hard time trying to figure out what kind of cereal to buy or what kind of oatmeal flavor to purchase. Right. And so when we are presented with too many options, we feel really anxious and dissatisfied and you know, those feelings intensify when it comes to really important life decisions and of course money, right. And it increasingly you know complicated financial in, in a world where you know, things are very complicated and becoming more and more complicated because there are now more products and services offered and innovative solutions to this, that, and the other it's, it's really becoming harder for, I think, people to make decisions. There was an interesting study actually by the Journal of Financial Services Research some years ago about 401k participants that showed that actually the more mutual fund options that were offered in a 401k, it had actually a negative impact on participation. And so it's something that I think we have to be aware of, especially when it comes to the choice overload factor when it, when it comes to you know, making decisions about our money and feeling confident about it. And I guess the last thing, as well as that you know, personal finance concepts and, and all the lingo that comes with it is, is generally something that's really, really hard to, to decode. I mean, if you think about you know, the term credit that we use here in the US you know, we have loan, we have lines, we have mortgages, aand you know, it's not necessarily clear, easy to understand that they actually mean the same thing. And you know, a big majority of people probably don't realize that they're all the same things. And, and I think we just do a disservice by using complicated lingo, different terminologies, and it's, again, it goes back to this kind of this example that I shared, right? Like it's hard when you've got these challenges to decipher what really should be a chapter three, you know move that I should make in my life versus a chapter 10. So I think what, again, what, what we're trying to do at Finny and what, what I'm super motivated to solve is making these complicated topics really easy and bite-sized and curriculum based so that we do feel more empowered to make, make the choice to learn. And, and you know, we'll, we'll, we're all working collectively again towards that effort.
Tony:And I think that's important is that it really resonated with me when you were talking about the different types of credit. And that the same thing as my background is in life insurance, and there are so many flavors of life insurance, but yet they all do the same thing, but in many different ways, but they pay a benefit when somebody passes away and then there's all these other things. And even people within the industry have no idea what the different products do that, that it's. And I know it's true across the financial services world is even people within the industry go, okay. Yeah. I don't know about all those other things that there's a lot to know.
Chihee:And I think that increasingly there are new and interesting innovative strategies and products that are being launched that that may provide some kind of efficiency from a time efficiency perspective, price efficiency perspective, what have you, but are creating additional confusion because it's hard to understand the basic foundational because you don't know the basic foundational concepts. And, and so we'll, we'll see how, how the market progresses on this front. But you know, I think that if enough of us are focused on the education aspect, we'll, we'll overcome.
Tony:It well, well, what I was gonna can say is I, I think it always does start with a foundation when you learn any other skill outside of finances. Like if you play a sport, you learn the fundamentals and there's not really an established fundamentals in a personal finance world. It's you just go right in and you you're gonna buy your auto insurance policy, or you're gonna get a home loan as you point out it's. And then usually it's like, you're buying your first home. So you have 30 days to figure out which home loan you want if 30 days. And, but you haven't ever learned the fundamentals of how a loan works.
Chihee:And it goes back to the fact that we don't have it as a standard curriculum in school and we are literally winging it when it comes to your money. And you think you might know a thing or two, but may not. Right. That, that, that could be profound and impactful when it comes to actually making a decision. And so yeah, it, it just comes down to, to the basics and to your point about you know, sports, it's the same with languages, right? When you learn a language, there's a foundation, you start with basic pronouns and verbs, and then you start to construct those sentences. And I think Duolingo is a great example of that, and they really kind of democratize the way that you can learn various languages, but there's always, there's always been a curriculum around these and with personal finance there isn't one.
Tony:Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. I agree with you completely, that it should be taught in school. So as we're talking we talked about this a little bit pre-show is, what are some of the specific challenges for women with personal finance?
Chihee:I think when I think about my own personal experience being in debt and being embarrassed to speak about it with anybody, but one, the one challenge that I keep hearing from other women when it comes to personal finances is feeling intimidated, right? Feeling intimidated that they don't know that they don't know how best to approach money and the topics. And so what we set out to do specifically at Finny was to create a web app and, and the, and the environment within our learning modules that is inclusive and friendly. And we specifically designed Finny to not be intimidating and to be kind of an easy platform to learn, and so that's one of the biggest hurdles I think, and challenges that exist for women in personal finance. And I would also say even though kind of learning is our core focus, right. We also have a discussion forum on Finny for our community members to ask questions of each other. And I've heard a lot of feedback from women that it's been kind of a great platform for them to ask their questions in an, in a supportive, open way and get feedback from others. And so we continue to hit on that, but I think that's one of the biggest challenges today.
Tony:Well, that's it, that's great. Especially giving people a platform where they can ask questions and there's no judgment. I think that's a big thing that I've heard, especially from other women, is that there's, there can be a lot of judgment and emotions affiliated with finances. And so it makes it that much more challenging. So it's, it's great that there's a community for people to go and ask those questions because we all have questions. We all have things in a personal finance world. I know there's other areas of the personal finance world, where I'm not an expert in, and I can use the benefits. So it's great to have those resources. So to wrap up can you share with us, what's your number one tip on being financially prepared?
Chihee:Yeah, no. So I get to go back to my my childhood you know, I, I learned how to play the piano, thanks to my parents and you know, I played for, for many, many years and also competitively played and just like playing the piano becoming financially literate is a skill, right? And like all skills they're learnable. And my belief that if you practice consistently it will lead to a skill becoming a habit. And when habits are repeated over and over again, they become effortless. And I'm a big believer that the biggest outcomes in life really just kind of happen out of the blue are a result of our habits and actions that we do every day as a routine. And so my tip is, is really this and that is weave learning about personal finance into your everyday life. Like any other habit, even if it's five months a day, sorry, five minutes a day, five minutes a day. And to make it easier here's a quick hack: habit stack which means to integrate your learning about personal finance by adding habits on top of ones you've already developed. So an example of this is before your before your morning walk, you're going to stretch, or before you brush your teeth, you're going to gargle with mouthwash pretty simple, right. In the personal finance context maybe it's before you close your laptop for the day, you're going to enter your earnings and expenses, right. In an Excel spreadsheet, or before you buy something expensive, you're going to add it to your wishlist and come back to it 48 hours later decide. Right. And in the context of personal finance, it could be after your morning coffee, I'm going to learn about personal finance, right. By going on Finny for five minutes a day, or reading an article or, or we're listening to a podcast. Right. So it's, it's a little crazy for me to think that unlike other healthy habits, right, that we practice like meditation or exercise, you, you really don't go. I don't think any of us go a week without mentioning how much something's caught something costs and small, small habits can seem inconsequential, but over time I think they really contribute significantly to our personal development. And so that's, that's really my tip.
Tony:That's, that's a fantastic tip. Especially the part where skills become habits, but the habit stacking and making this a part of your daily routine, maybe not daily, if you don't want to learn about personal finance daily take as much time to learn about personal finance, maybe it's I'm a basketball fan to follow your favorite NBA team you know, or whatever you're following. You know, if you're spending an hour every evening watching TV, then you can spend 10 minutes learning about personal finance and then you pay for your cable subscription.
Chihee:Exactly, exactly. It's hard to start new habits out of the blue. And so if you stack them, it actually can do wonders. And if you're conscious of it, it can do a lot towards kind of any goal, personal, financial, health. It can work. It really can. And many of us actually, I think you've tried it as well over the last six months just to keep learning and building habit. And it's just been profound little tip that we've all, all used.
Tony:Fantastic. Yeah. I feel like going to Ask Finny myself and doing a leson. I'm inspired. So I think we know where people can learn more about you, but can you share where people can learn more about you?
Chihee:Yeah. If you go to askfinny.com, F I N N Y you can learn a lot more about kind of what we're doing and the team and obviously you can check me out on LinkedIn and connect and, or email me directly, and then kind of happy to connect with anybody who's interested in, in the mission and has feedback for us. We're all ears.
Tony:Fantastic. Yeah. And again I'll have all the links for everyone in the show notes. I'd encourage you to go ahead, check out Ask Finny, see how your personal finance education stacks up. Chihee, thanks for joining me today. It's been a real pleasure. I appreciate it.
Chihee:Thank you, Tony. Thank you so much.
Tony:And thank you everybody for tuning in and checking out the Tony Stewart podcast. And till next time.