DairyVoice Podcast
DairyVoice Podcast
Showbox Sires Releases Bull Enrich-P 744H018394
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In this episode of the Evolution of the Great Cow, Tim Abbott and Mike Duckett of Showbox Sires talk with 70th winner of the Klussendorf Award, Joel Kietzman of Waunakee, Wisconsin. They discuss the new bull release Enrich-P 744H018394. Kietzman discusses the best traits of the elegance family and Mike Duckett gives the key highlights of this bull’s genomic data and the sire stack behind the bull. They also talk about what bloodlines Enrich could be used on. Enrich is available worldwide through your Select Sires representative.
Welcome to the newest episode of our podcast series, introducing our newest showbox sires bulls for our lineup. This bull will be available exclusively through your select sire's and worldwide sire's representatives and distributors. We're excited to release the new bull, 744HO 18394 Enrich P. An interesting pulled bull that's high type and comes from one of the greatest cow families North America has seen in the past three decades. A family that doesn't have a lot of bulls in AI. And one reason Mike and I got going with Showbox is because we thought we were missing genetics from cow families, just like the one that Enrich comes from. So today on our podcast, we have Mike Duckett, of course, my partner in Showbox Sires, and a distinguished guest who is really the guy that put the whole thing behind elegance together. One of the partners to building the elegance brand is Joel Keatsman from Wisconsin. Welcome to our podcast, Joel.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks, Tim. Thanks for having me. You and Mike, appreciate the opportunity.
SPEAKER_02You know, uh, we'll we'll start out with a little bit of a little bit of humor because we had your good friend Eddie Bugh on a couple weeks ago, Joel, and he did a great job talking about his bullsi. But he said that he had just gotten back from ice fishing and he gave us a score who caught the most fish. Would you like to give us any update on who ahead in the ice fishing deal?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, because whenever me and Eddie go together, neither one of us catch. So we'd uh we'd be vegetarians if it was, but we seem to do okay when we're not with each other, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, my Mike, if he would have given us any other answer, you'd have known he was lying, right? That's the one thing we could be sure of.
SPEAKER_01Uh Eddie was he was talking more confident than you, Keats, just so you know.
SPEAKER_02That must have been that good day he had. That's right. Well, Mike is officially not ice fishing today. Uh, he's on a little vacation, so thanks for joining us, Mike. Any ice fishing where you are today?
SPEAKER_01Well, she's nice and warm uh here in Florida. We come to for a little week away and the sun's bright, so it's good to get away from. We had zero and thirty inches of snow when we left. Well, good.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's get to work so you guys can get to NCAA basketball. This first of all, so Joel, I said you were one of the partners that got the elegance thing going. We're gonna spend some time talking about elegance and the pedigree behind Enrich because, as I said, there's not many bulls in AI that go back to this family, unfortunately. Tell us the whole elegance story, how it started, and a little of the history of elegance.
SPEAKER_00It was a long time ago, 30 years ago. I was out doing a little roading, as our friend Michael Heath would say, and it was you know early spring or something, and I stopped in by Brian and Cindy Krolls and was walking through the barn, looked down. There's this nice two-year-old there, had her legs, you know, were a little they were ready to get out on grass, and then looked up at the sign, and oh, that's quite a unique pedigree stack there. And so we looked at the cows and they were doing some chores, and then we had a nice visit and talked about her a little bit, and they had said that she was due in the fall, and you know, probably weren't looking, you know, to do anything with her. And at that point, she didn't strike me like, oh, we got to get her, like she'll show. Well, the sire stack, I thought she could make some nice calves. Like I said, she was due by the end of September, and they kind of wanted to have her fresh, and they got enough tours coming through the farm that they kind of wanted to see what they could do with her, and so we didn't really do anything more. We got reports that she calved in nice. We got done with expo. Me and Tom headed down over there, stopped to see them, and it was like a picture, they were out on pasture. She was walking across right on the crest of the hill as we got through the gates and headed up towards the cows, and just as you know, long as a train, black, silky, we kind of looked at each other and we were kind of thinking the same thing. So it took a little negotiating over the next week or two, but we ended up getting her bought.
SPEAKER_02And so that so that cow actually, just for for the pedigree, was crow broker elegants, which would be the shoot. I can't even tell you how many dams back. We'll talk about that in a minute. And also, Joel, you referenced Tom. That's Tom Cole from Bud John. Yes, yes. It was the two of you that that bought the cow together, Joel. Yeah, and and uh John, John and Mary. Yeah, okay. So three of you owned the cow, and and so you did get her bought, obviously. What happened after that?
SPEAKER_00She had, like I said, calved in the fall. They took her to Louisville, I believe, and then we took possession after that, if I'm remembering it right. And then we had a year off, made a bunch of babies, and then calved her back in, and we showed her from then on.
SPEAKER_02Was this at the start of IVF, or were you still conventional flesh?
SPEAKER_00Oh, conventional, conventional, and she did really well for us.
SPEAKER_02And the cow went on to be 96 points, if I'm not mistaken, yes, and won a lot of championships for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she was always in the top handful, won a few times. Yeah, always did very well, and her daughters and granddaughters filled the show string right behind her.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's when I remember getting to know you guys a bit, was when all her daughters were coming onto the scene. Mike, I would say you probably have some recollection of that. Do you remember your first elegance daughters that you saw?
SPEAKER_01I remember when I moved to uh to Wisconsin, my first trip to the state show. That's all you seen was elegance daughters. And it was pretty hard to compete with them because every year they had a whole string full of daughters and granddaughters that that were pretty dominant, and you couldn't beat them. And I guess that was that's what started me really when we started to show boxes I wanted something from this cow family because I don't know there's ever been a cow family. One would just get to the end of her career and a daughter or a granddaughter would take off, and and they just kept coming year after year. So that for me, that was impressive. And and when I got the opportunity to to buy Erica, it was a it was a no-brainer.
SPEAKER_02Back to you, Keats. You know, so we've talked about elegance and and you know her success, but her success in the show ring was great, but nothing compared to what her success was as a brood cow. Tell us a little bit about a few of her fate of your favorite daughters from the cow.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's well recorded that the encore cross was what she loved. And you would think with her pedigree slayer stack, like we should have been going dairy. And but the strength bulls are what she liked.
SPEAKER_02I wasn't gonna quote numbers here because I don't want to get it wrong, but was there three or four of those encores that were 95 points, and numerous others that were excellent went on to breed, were filling showstrings themselves, and then the Lynjettes obviously they they did pretty well too with Eileen and and Evelyn and and we Mike and I say it all the time sometimes the greatness of a cow family or a bull is the crosses that work, and and maybe broker elegance encore wasn't on paper, wasn't how you design the play to win the game, yeah. But that's right, for for some reason that cross clicked and then it just bred. And and you think about it at that day and age, frames, dariness, and will the milk were were characteristics that we really wanted and used for cows, and and nothing better for that, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and those cows would they're they were fun to work with because they just wanted to eat, it was never a fight to get a fill on them.
SPEAKER_02The greatest trait for you that that elegance or set self had when you looked at the cow, what you described her up on the ridge a little bit. What would you say two or three of the best things about the old cow were herself?
SPEAKER_00I would still say that that length of body, depth of chest, and through the rib, yeah, just their their will to do what they're supposed to do. They were fun to work with, easy to work with, made us look smart.
SPEAKER_02And Mike, how many interviews do we do on our new bowls where we talk about a great cow and they say the same thing Keith said, that they're easy to work with? Think about all the ones we've done and and your own career. Would that be right?
SPEAKER_01It certainly makes a cow family like this your favorite when you when you work with them and they they don't make a lot of mistakes. Like cows that they eat, they milk, and in this case, they make embryos, and because they pass genetics and we give you the opportunity to make money. That's what's so impressive about elegance is you know, that that cow made Bud John J.K. a lot of money, but every person it bought into the family made money too, because there was cows that went to farms in Tennessee that those guys plushed them and they made they sold beautiful calves, and those kind of cow families are easy to love because they just do it generation after generation.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and Keith, you mentioned so we we go from elegance to you know, we talked about the encores, you referenced Eileen. Tell us a little bit about Eileen. I think she was unanimous, all American as a five-year-old, maybe reserve all-american as an age cow, but one of those cows that got better every year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she was a showring favorite for a lot of people, yeah, just the width of rump.
SPEAKER_02She was she was special, and she is one of the anchors in this pedigree as well. But then then you go to Storm Emily, and Keats, I'll tell my version of Storm Emily. I saw her at Bud John when she was about a two-year-old, and I truly thought she was one of the greatest young cows I'd ever laid my eyes on. She was the epitome of that beautiful style and daring that Storm could create, and the power and the width uh Eileen created. You remember that cow?
SPEAKER_00Am I very well? I believe she was was she second for us at Madison there with a cap tip.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and you lost the cow too early in life. I mean, I think she was 92 as a four-year-old, maybe, and and never had a chance to go on. And then from her comes the Dundee, which again talk about great mating, Storm and Dundee, they did work well together. Uh a little about Adair.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so Adair, she reminded me a lot of Eileen. Wasn't a small cow, but she wasn't the huge cow anymore, and just tremendous balance, and she was she was one of her favorites for sure.
SPEAKER_02You know, to take the pedigree one more step, you know, uh Adair was nominated as junior three-year-old, both sides of the border. She was nominated as a four-year-old, went on to be 95 with a lot of production. But Mike, then what really happened is they bred her to gold ship. The Ellen cow is kind of where you start with this pedigree, right, Mike?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because uh she went through one of your sales, I believe, Tim, uh, Nashville. And those the people that bought her sold lots of high dollar calves from her, and then sold a really good cow that would be the mother of Erica, a cow that was thinking she was reserved intermediate champion or maybe intermediate champion at the Ontario Summer Show. Ellegance family done great for the people that got it there, but to everybody it touches, it seems to do well.
SPEAKER_02And so to take us fast forward, it's been a great walk down memory lane with all those great cows. You know, Keats, I I don't know that there has been, quote, show cow in the business without generating dollars in AI that's made any more money in the breeding economy when you think about her. Would you? I'm not saying you've got it all. I know you've got most of the pennies you ever collected. Yeah, yeah. But would you, I mean, wouldn't that be a true statement? This is one of the branches, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And because of her prolific embryo production, it was tremendous. And when she did slow down on that, the IVF was start starting up, you know, to go with that on the daughters. So yeah, I I don't know what the total numbers of embryos were, but it was it was staggering.
SPEAKER_02And for you, you started a whole company, I think you called it elegance futures, um with you and and the culs. Do you have any idea how many cattle over the years carry the Bud John JK prefix? No idea, but it's but it would be it would be hundreds and hundreds. It it's for sure. It's not dozens, it's hundreds. Yes. And Mike, we talk about it with some of our cows. One way you know cows really identify themselves in this business is their ability to reproduce and massively reproduce. Think about the great cows we talk about, Mike. That's why elegance is so is so popular. She's done it in every branch of her tree.
SPEAKER_01Not too many cows can be that many generations removed, and everybody still knows who elegance is. And you can go to Japan, you can go to Australia, you can go to all these countries, and everyone knows elegance. And they they know most of the cows in in this bull that were introducing as pedigree by one name. And that's that's exactly what we wanted to do when we started this. You know, cows that perform well here in other countries, it's pretty hard to find.
SPEAKER_02And you and I are traveling globally enough now, Mike, that when you bring up these cows, people do people do know the cows. And Keats, you you've probably bred more one-name cows. Mike and I talk about one-name cows all the time. You've got about six of them in this one's baggage. And that's a tribute to your marketing, right? We talk a lot about marketing. Why do you think you were so successful marketing from this cow?
SPEAKER_00Well, obviously, Bud John gave her a good home and couldn't have done that without that, getting the animals ready for the shows, and it was a great partnership for sure.
SPEAKER_02And it really propelled both of you and Tommy into the limelight of the business, right? You were both you're both successful at the time, but moderately unknown, maybe outside the confines of Wisconsin. What did it do, one cow, for your career?
SPEAKER_00That was huge, yeah, for sure. I mean, the clippers can only take a guy so far.
SPEAKER_02So that's a good point. We've we've got a podcast coming out that we just did with fitters, uh, that uh dairy business is going to have out, and that's one thing they all talk about is you can you can only go so so far, you've got to become a great cow person, a great breeder, all that to get down the road.
SPEAKER_01I think Keats was being a little bit humble there. To be honest, when a cow dominates as much as they did in a state like Wisconsin, it's pretty easy to to make a cow that bred the way she did famous. And and that's their great care and the way she bred made it made it special.
SPEAKER_02So one of the neat things about this bull, guys, is the sire stack. When you look at it, I go through the quick list. It goes Starbuck, broker, limjet, storm, dundee, gold chip, eunuch, lambda. Like, how could you have any better crisscross of sires? Mike, you and I talk about getting three or four generations of bulls we like. I just listed eight generations.
SPEAKER_01What's your feeling on that? It's back and forth with dariness and strength, and Pete said earlier, you know, elegance. They figured out that she likes bulls with strength as you go through that pedigree. It's the who's who of the sires. They're bulls that have been around for years and they continue to start good cattle.
SPEAKER_00And past the broker with Starbuck and Triple Thread, and some of your listeners will probably have to Google up those bulls, but yeah, they were pretty good too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think Bootmark is a bull that didn't. I think it's 11 generations of excellent cows behind this bull, which you can almost never say in a bull in AI. Keats, I want to go back to you for a minute. We talked about it with elegance herself, and we've talked about what the cows look like, but talk again for our breeders that are looking to use this bull. What are what are your favorite traits of the family and that you think this Erica cow and her son could throw to our customers that are listening?
SPEAKER_00The tremendous balance and dariness with some strength. I go through show strings and get down to the end, and I take a double look at one, and then somebody will walk up and say, Well, of course you like her. That goes back to elegance. Well, there isn't too many that say they go back to elegance on the sign. They might have an E in their name, start with their name, but and that was the case with Erica when I walked down through Mike's string, took a second look at the one, and then went back over there at the end of the string. And and Mike says, Well, of course you'd like her. That was it was Erica. So the eye appeal, I mean, you you can't beat it.
SPEAKER_02Keats, you you brought it up, and and Mike, I'll let you kind of address Erica because many people have told us she's the modern day elegance, maybe. I don't think Mike, you and I have a cow that's any more popular, and we've got some cows that people love. But this fall at Expo, Erica was just, you know, a huge, huge topic for us. Tell our listeners a little about Erica.
SPEAKER_01I had been keeping my eye open for something, it went back to elegance. Don't want to admit I was on Facebook and found her, but there was a picture on Facebook of her at the farm. I said, you know what, I'm I'm gonna go look at her. And so I drove to eastern Ontario and I didn't want to leave the barn without her because like Keith was saying, it's just they grab you. And when they brought her out of the box stall and and walked her down the the walk. And then they I asked when she's due, and she was due the week of Madison. You know, most people would walk away from her because that's not gonna work for I I couldn't. I I wanted her, I didn't care if I had to wait on her to cab again. The first year we owned her, she cabbed the day we showed at Expo the first year, and this year she was a year fresh at Expo and and stood in the top five. We've had interns, and when you ask them, so what's your favorite cow in our barn? A lot of them will tell you it's Erica. She's she's so balanced. Again, she she makes embryos. It's important for us to be able to market embryos, and so far she's made daughters that have done well, and kind of a total package kind of cow. But you know, last year we we showed her at spring show, she done well there, and that's when when Showbox ended up buying her from the partnership I was in. Ever since then, uh I mean she's she's due back next week, actually, for this next year, has done everything we've asked her to. Pretty excited to get her back out this year.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's a funny story because you know, Mike, the day Mike bought her, he called me and said he'd bought one of the nicest young cows he's gotten his hands on. And and truly his goal was to find an elegance that could be a bull mother. Good friends with the other people that owned her. I am, and Mike is as well. Kingsway, the boys up there, and Terry Smigwadi and his family in Ontario, and they just wouldn't, they wouldn't let the whole cow go. And so at that point, I didn't buy in, Mike, because it would have divided the pie pretty darn small. We waited and waited and waited, and finally the time came that I was able to buy in for show box, and so we're pretty happy to have these bulls in our show box program. Keats, when you saw the cow, and I know you're busy when you're at these shows and doing a lot of things. Do you remember what you liked about Erica herself?
SPEAKER_00I think pretty much everything because they're all good cows, right? When I take the time to take a double take on one, it kind of shows my hand. Yeah, no, she grabbed me.
SPEAKER_02I'm putting a note in my phone on that, Mike. If Keats looks, then his hand is shown. That's good to know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it won't get you far, though, because my pockets are empty, you know, with these all these out-of-state tuitions.
SPEAKER_02We've all been few bad mics headed there. Mike, tell us a little about the bull. We've talked a ton about the cow family. So Enrich P is his name. Tell us a little about the mating of this bull on Erica.
SPEAKER_01Well, so we were looking for something a little unique, a little different to to use on her, and we came up with Holy P, a bull that jury's not decided yet on him, but the bull that brings in polled and and from you know luster Hannah, and and just uh we thought we would take a swing at it and ended up getting a bull that you know, nice plus on milk, uh close to 300 pounds of milk, he's plus on fat percentage. Got a real nice somatic cell count at 2.7, extremely high tight bull, he's 2.9 crowding three, and over two points on other composites, a very modern bred kind of bull. Generations of and I think you said 11 or 12 generations of excellent cows behind him. So I think when you look at his linears off the chart for other traits, gets uh a little extra length to the teak, which is something that in today's world we need. Level for rump angles. So I I a bull that I think is gonna be a bull that we can use to make some high type animals that are not gonna hurt you in his health traits and milk and fat percentage.
SPEAKER_02I think all those traits are the things that really made this bull stick out. We had quite a few sons. To pick from for the cow, but we love the fact that number one, he's going to take the horns off. Number two, he's going to make them high type with great udders. And the other thing, Mike, that I love is the foot and leg situation on the bull. Really, plus on foot and leg composite, you know, just does a pretty nice job. I guess his mobility will be a specialty of this bull when you look at Erica. She she moves around like a cat, doesn't she?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think with gold chip Unox and those bulls there uh right up close. Uh it's foot and leg should be should be excellent. And and the other thing is even his strength and openness and dairy form is pretty off the chart, too. And then you get to three, I think Keats said a little bit ago on width. He's he's over three one, he's three one six for for width, and you don't find that kind of width through many cow families anymore, and that's that's pretty cool for trait.
SPEAKER_02And you hit just where I was gonna go, Mike. For for Keats, this bull is 3.16 wide, and think about how many J generations back that it's gone through to get here, you know, back to your original elegance. In doesn't this linear kind of fit what that cow looks like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. Eight years ago, someone was having the discussion with me, maybe not quite that far back, and telling me that, well, that's not the modern kind, that's not the modern kind. And I'm like, they don't have to be narrow to be modern. I said, if width is not cool, then I'm done with this industry because we made the rear udders, we've got the rear uders phenomenal, they've gotten wide, but you still gotta have a rump to put that uder between. And if they got a narrow, they can't walk around it, and pretty soon they're gonna be doing the splits, so the rumps have got to stay there, you gotta have width, and they can have the great uders.
SPEAKER_02That's right, and and Mike and I talk about it all the time because we're in an industry where we don't want bigger cows, is the word on the street. And Keats, we happen to agree with you totally. Mike and I, you'll never hear us say we don't want bigger cows. We want bigger cows, we just don't want them taller, we just want them bigger from width, and and again, from their heart to their rump to their udders, it all matters, doesn't it? And I think if you look at Erica from behind that tremendous rear udder, but enough width in a rear rudder in her rump and the rump structure mic to make it work, right?
SPEAKER_01Just before we started this podcast, I'd gotten a Snapchat from the girl Chelsea back home, and there's a view of Erica's from the front, too. And she's she's standing there, and you could you could set a small square bell of hay between her legs. She is starting to spring up to calf here soon, so she was just letting me know that Erica's A-OK. We're very fortunate to have good help at home. And just before we got on, she sent that. And so I 316 is it's understandable that this bull would have that when you get Snapchats from mom that look like that.
SPEAKER_02And Keats, when I look at the pictures of Erica, she's got elegance's neck, like that, you know, that extreme style head and neck, and and still enough width that she's that she's got enough go in her to to do it. Keats, one thing our listeners love to hear from master breeders like yourself and successful people. How do you use this bull? What kind of bloodlines do you use enrich pee on?
SPEAKER_00I think your king docks and your sidekicks and tattoos and you know, probably the majors now.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's dozens and dozens, hundreds and hundreds of daughters of those bulls out there that that this bull can can be used on, and 50% of them he's gonna take the horns off from. And I guess, Mike, as you use the bull on some pulled pedigrees to try to make a homozygous pulled pedigree, any other direction you'd go with the bull, Mike.
SPEAKER_01You know, with the kind of width that this bull's probably gonna do, any of the moran stuff, the A2P2s, and I mean the Morans can, if you're gonna correct them, you'd want to widen them out some, and the A2P2s, the the lusters and and stuff like it. I think the bull could work in a lot of those pulled genetics.
SPEAKER_02And back to Keats's list, King Doc and Sidekick and Tattoo. They're I mean, they're all high style bulls that could use this tremendous width that this bull's gonna throw. This has been a fun discussion. We could go on and tell stories forever. Keats, I'm gonna kind of give you the chance to wrap up your thoughts on the bull and the cow family. You know, at our advanced age, Keats, you gotta reflect whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's this? Our stuff. You gotta reflect on what got you there in the industry. Keats, you're known throughout the world. Talk about how one cow has done so much for you.
SPEAKER_00Like I said, she it was a dream come true because I knew we had a good product when we bought her. Never dreamt that it could grow to that. I ain't saying it put us on the map, but it certainly brought us way up it. It was a pleasure to be able to have the opportunity to work with her, and I'm glad to see that a cow is putting some bulls in stud that it can have more of an impact. We had a great impact with the the number of females she blessed us with, but having a bull in that could really affect the industry is pretty neat.
SPEAKER_02We're thrilled to have you on, Keats. And if you know, if we had more time, we could have had John Cole or Tom Cole. And again, you talked about your partnerships, and you were a very synergistic partnership because John and Mary and Tom and Kelly and you, you all brought something to the partnership, and uh you built a tremendous name for yourselves. And we'll get Tommy on one of these uh podcasts about another bull down the road, and and uh it'll be fun. But the the other thing, Keats, for our young people listening, give them a little bit of advice when you're out looking for a cow. You found this cow walking up and down a barn, and and all these guys that clip winter clip and come clip a herd off. What should they be looking for? How do you find the next elegance?
SPEAKER_00You're getting paid by the head, but you got to slow down and take a little bit in, and and also you can analyze what bulls are doing what. Over the years, there's been some great type bulls that could hurt you because they do some things wrong, but they're still quote the big type bulls, yeah. And don't forget the pedigrees. Pedigrees don't lie, it'll usually come out if you're not seeing it that day. It usually will come out yet for you.
SPEAKER_02We couldn't have scripted that any better, Mike, because you and I say that all the time. That when there's a skeleton in the pedigree, you will find it, right? And yeah, well, guys, this has been really fun. One of our goals at Showbox is to put name brand cows to our customers, but also put the people behind the cows in the limelight. Joel Keatsman and Tom Cole and John Cole that started Elegance Futures and found this cow. Certainly the Krolls for breeding this cow and starting the cow family. There's so many good people involved with this cow. And then you go on through to the Winwright herd that got involved, and then the Smigwads and Kingsway. Mike, there's just every every good breeder in North America has touched this pedigree in some fashion. This bowl will be available from your local Select Sir's representative. It's 744 HO 18394 and Rich P the holy peace son out of our cover girl that was featured on many of our ads and our and our promotions, Smigwadi's Lambda Erica. Come see her this summer and fall at our show strike. Thanks for listening, and we look forward to our next episode of this podcast series on the Dairy Voice.