Ep 55 Career: Know what fights to pick and fight them constructively

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates explores the essential balance leaders must strike between advocating for their beliefs and supporting their team without crossing into unproductive conflict. Learn how to stand up for what matters while maintaining constructive relationships, why strategic “fighting” is crucial for effective leadership, and how to make advocacy work for—not against—your career. Tune in to master the art of constructive advocacy and elevate your impact as a leader.

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Stephen Gates : 0:00

What's going on everybody, and welcome into the 55th episode of The Crazy One podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design, and all kinds of things that matter to creative people. Now if you like the show, make sure that whenever your favorite podcast platform take just a second, hit the subscribe button, so you're sure you're getting the latest episodes whenever they come out. And if you already haven't done it, take just a few minutes. Whenever you're there, hit the stars, leave a little review, do something to let people know how you feel about the show. Now, today, we're going to talk about fighting. And this isn't like Fight Club, there isn't going to be a rule or the first rule of this podcast is you can't tell other people about this podcast, if anything, it's probably actually the exact opposite of that rule. But we want to talk about fighting, knowing which ones are good. How do you pick them what hills to die on, things like that. Now, we keep talking about leadership. This is a topic we keep coming back to because it's complicated. It's more than just knowing the right things to do. We talked about this in the last episode about honesty, that it's more than just knowing it, it's actually doing it. And it's finding the right ways of doing it and the right ways of bringing it to life. And one of the places where I see too many, creatives, too many leaders go wrong, are knowing what fights to pick and what hills to die on. It's a fine line, but time between being a leader and being a dictator, or once again, just being an asshole. It's an incredibly important part of this. It's an incredibly I think, important and constructive part of creativity. But there are some things that you've got to think about. There's some things that you have to get right for it to actually be productive. So today, we're going to talk about four things. The first is we're going to talk about the balancing act. How do you actually balance how and when do you fight? We're going to spend a little bit of time talking about just what I said. Why is fighting important? Then I'm gonna talk about how do you actually fight constructively? How do you do it so that you actually get an outcome beyond everybody just being pissed at each other? And then spend just a few minutes to kind of talk about what's really going on here? What's the real solution that we need to push for today? So it's just gonna be those four quick things to be able to look at that and be able to look at really the importance. And really the opportunity is funny as it may sound in fighting. Now, let's start with talking about why is this a balancing act? Because with a lot of things, that's the case here. And once again, it's because this is a topic and when we talk about fighting that can be constructive or it can be destructive for you in your career. I've seen a lot of people who can do this really, really well, who are respected who are people that can get things done who are promoted. They're the people who know that their team is bought in that leadership is behind them because They can just get shit done. It is a really fine line. And not many degrees away from those people that I've also seen people who don't do this well, who are the ones who are kind of viewed as an asshole or sharp elbowed a lot of kind of very interesting terms around this. I've seen these people get fired for these characteristics. I've seen their career stagnate. I've seen a lot of these sort of things happen. And it's a, it's just a nuance between these two things. And the balance between it that can make all the difference, because on the one hand, and there's probably this is probably even a different dimension than even those ones I just talked about. If you never take on a fight, then you're never going to change anything that makes you an effective as a creative, it makes you an effective as a leader. Because you know what? leadership, creativity, success. All of these things are constantly evolving concepts. And you have to be willing to fight for the changes that are going to keep you and keep your team in the position to be successful. And that's really the part of it is that if you aren't willing to take that on, then you're just going to have to accept what is given to your team, you're just going to have to accept what goes on often cases, putting you in places where you're not going to easily be successful, it's gonna undermine your team, it's gonna undermine what you want to do. So that's why it is an important part of it. Because if you're just that person is just going to accept everything your team's not gonna be very passionate about your co workers aren't either, because they're just going to know that whatever is going on, you're just going to take it at face value. But on the other hand, if all you do is take on battles, if all you want to do is fight, if all you want to do is complain, and take on all the things around you and point out all the things that are wrong and get into fights about all this other stuff. You're gonna burn yourself out and you're going to piss off everyone around you. Because there is a reality in this world is there's a reality. If you want to be successful at being a creative leader, especially on an in house team is that creativity is subjective. There is not a right answer it is it is not two and two equals four. It's a hell of a lot way far away from that. It's probably two plus two equals fuchsia. But that's the thing is that the reason why this is important is because you need the support of your partners of your clients, of the people around you, if you actually want to change things, because again, just simply pointing things out picking fights, being the person who says this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. That's an easy thing to do. It's easy to be an asshole we've talked about this in the past, it's easy to be the jerk who does that it's easy to be the person who just will simply wants to burn everything down around them, because they think it's wrong. But then you're the person who points out stuff but then doesn't actually really even change anything. Because again, you need the support of those people around you. You need the ability to change things and you need to do at all with the right tone, because the other nuance to this, the other part of this balancing act, is that even the right message with the wrong delivery comes out wrong. Even if you are picking the right fight, even if it is the thing that you should be doing, even if it's a place where you are defending your team, but you do it like an asshole, you do it and you're condescending, you do it or you put other people down, you do it by burning everybody else around you down. Then even if it is the right fight, it still comes out wrong. Because of the fact that people can't hear the problem. Because they don't hear support. They all they hear is a tone that's off putting. So it's these balance between all this. That is the first part of it. It's the guide rails that become really, really interesting and really important. It's a lot of places where I see people either be really successful or really unsuccessful is because they got on either side of those boundaries. Because like I said, if you're the person who doesn't like to fight, you don't want to stand up for things. You're not an effective leader, not an effective creative. Because too much of what we do is subjective. it's debatable. You have to fight for what you believe, especially for the fact that great ideas are so damn fragile. They're so easily undermined and minimized and neutered and made small and safe by all the other people that that's all they can understand. But then again, all the other people that all they ever want to do is just fight to put everybody else down to say, hell, they don't understand it, they don't have the vision, things like that. It's the balance between those two. In fighting, that is really the foundation. I'm trying to figure out how to fight successfully. But like I said, in the beginning, I think fighting, I think conflict is an essential part of creativity. We referenced this in the last show, whenever we had talked about honesty or candor, we had talked about the ability to sit down with your co workers to sit down with your team, sit down with your clients, and have the ability to have an open discussion about what is right and what is wrong. And how do you actually go through that process so that you can come out of it with something that is actually you useful and productive, the work gets better. But a lot of this case is going to be then disagreements. It's my opinion against yours. I think one thing that I think is true, you think something else that you think is true. And I think this is important, because at the end of the day, as a leader, I want to see you who really believes, who can really make the point who can really stand up to it, because that's where the conflict can get interesting and productive. So while this is a tough balancing act, I think that standing up for yourself, fighting for you, fighting for your team, fighting for your work, is critical to your creativity to your leadership. And at the end of the day, at least whenever it comes to me, it is critical to your frickin sanity. Because things need to get better. As a leader, as a creative, your team has to know your co workers have to know that you're gonna fight for them. You have to walk your talk if you're going to pitch an idea You've got to fight for it, you've got to believe in it. You can't just mail it in and say, Oh, this is something I came up with. And then when somebody challenges on you, you just kind of go like, Well, yeah, you know what, I don't think it was that great to begin with. What do I do with that person? What do I think about that person? What What do you do with somebody who is just putting out work just to go through the motions of it, but they don't really believe in it, they aren't really going to stand up for it. They're really going to get behind it. And especially on the leadership side, to be the person that's not going to fight for your team that's just going to go through the motions. It's going to Yes, everything a client says, you're going to lose your team. Because the reality is, it's easy to be a leader when things are going well. It's when things are hard. That's the moment when leadership is made. When people see the type of leader that you really are, are you gonna walk your talk Are you gonna fight for the team? Are things gonna get different or better? This can be as a leader, also the most humbling, the most frustrating moment because even if you want to fight for You're not gonna win all the fights, you're not going to be able to get it all done, you're not going to be able to do that. And then but in that moment, the ability to be able to go back and be honest with your team to say that you had the fight, we didn't get everything, but we got something, this is where we are with it. People aren't always going to understand it. This is where in a lot of cases, I say, and it may sound like a bit of a downer, there are aspects of leadership that are incredibly lonely, because you're the only one that know the fight that you went through. And in many cases, if you're doing your job, right, your team probably shouldn't know about at least 60% of the fights that you're having. Because it's stuff that would affect them if you let it go. But you cut it off at the past you handled it and that you didn't need to go back and say Oh, hey guys, here's something you weren't involved with. But this is a fight that I took on and look how great I am. That's not authentic leadership that's just kind of bragging about stuff that you know because you want credit for it. And there are moments for that and there are times to do that. stick in your your interview with your boss or whatever it is but but understand what that is. But I've also So found that it's important on a personal level, because I can't stay happy. I can't stay sane in a broken system or a broken situation where I feel like I can't Excel. And that so much of what it is that we're doing so much of it is that we're up, we're up against, especially as we talked about sitting in the era where creatives have the possibility to change things at a scale at which we have not seen since the Industrial Revolution, it means that we're going to need to go pick a lot of fights, it means we're going to need to go change a lot of things, it means that we're going to have to bump our heads up against a lot of stuff. And I know that if I don't fight, that if I don't change things, then my inspiration, my position, my possibility, will very quickly turn from inspiration into frustration. Your team will be in the exact same situation. Because it's one of those things and I use this phrase more than I would like, but in too many companies in too many teams. I see stacks of pink elephants, problems that everybody knows about problems that everybody knows that are broken, instead of facing them instead of trying to change them. And it doesn't mean you have to take them all on at once. But instead of at least picking out one of them, saying, look, this is the one, maybe that one right there in the middle of the weird eyes, that one, that's the one we're going to go after. That's the pink elephant I want to go take on, because things need to get better things need to change, I'm not gonna be able to get through all of them at once. But that one, that's where I'm going to start. Because I need to start changing things, I need to start making things better. Because if I don't do that, if my team doesn't see that if they can't participate in it and help and be a part of what that is, then again, that optimism, the hope, the potential, that inspiration turns into frustration, apathy, uncaring and the willingness to just simply walk away from whatever it is that you've done or whatever it is that you've built, because of the fact that you don't see that light at the end of the tunnel or Worse you think the light in a tunnel is actually now a truck. But it happens all too much. But this is why what we do and for so much leadership is important. But the other part of it that is important is that we can all easily think if you took a second just right now, think of how fighting at work has been bad for somebody's career. It's been bad for a team, bad for everybody else around them. One of those moments where they were that person who just like to pick a fight, they were the person that just like to cause it because everybody else around them so much stress, so much work. So much other stuff that didn't need to happen. Because they just wanted to be right. They want to point out a problem. They want to do whatever it was and they were obliviously unaware of the ripples that that sent out into the pond. The other problems he had the swirl that that created around them, because they were so focused, so dedicated on winning that fight. Maybe they lost The fight, but the problem is that they probably at the end of the day are going to lose the war, they will lose the war in the respect of their co workers, they're gonna lose the war in the respect of their clients, their ability to actually get things done in the long term where they maybe they get that one thing done. But all the other things that future they want to do are gonna fall on deaf ears. So let's talk a little bit about how do you not become that person? How do you not do that? How do you do this differently and better to be somebody who can fight who will stand up who is going to want to make things differently, but you can do it in a way that is actually constructive that is productive. And I think that there's a lot of nuance, and there's a lot of points in here that I think people either don't think about or they aren't aware of and that that is a real problem. So let's run through I would just randomly wrote down a bunch of these things as I've gone through with my my work with my teams work with things like that to see what are the things that people do that I really think can make the difference? The first One, I think is to understand your role and to understand your authority. And this is really looking at something and just taking a minute to assess. Do you have the reputation? Do you have the authority? Do you have the support to actually succeed in this fight? Is this something that I can do on my own? Or do I need to rally my co workers? Do I need to rally other teams? Do I need to rally other leaders around me to be able to get this done? Because the problem is, in too many cases, what you can do is you just turn into Don Quixote, you're gonna go out jousting, a whole bunch of windmills, because you don't have the authority. You don't have the power. You don't have the political capital to be able to pull off this change, that you're gonna go you're gonna complain about something, you're gonna say, Look, I've got a problem with this. things need to be different. This isn't working. Here's the solution, whatever that is, but too often, too many companies. it's maddening. It's frustrating. It's idiotic. Someone may do things like look at what your title is, before they decide if they're going to take you seriously, they're going to look at who your leader is to decide if they're going to take you seriously because they know if they disagree with you that then the boss who actually does care will come and cause a problem for them. They're gonna look at who you're aligned with who else is with you and trying to get these things different. But that's the problem is that you just need to start by understanding, do you have the authority to be able to make that change? If you don't, it's like I said a second ago, if you don't feel like you have the authority, it doesn't mean you give up the fight. It doesn't mean that you don't do it. It just means you attack it differently. You find the support of your boss, you find the support and your co workers, you find the supportive people in other teams, there are ways to still get it done. If the answer is no, I don't have that authority. But it still is finding a way to get it done. The next one, and this one goes back again to the last episode. I think these two are a little bit of yin and yang as we talk about Canada and we talk about fighting. They're going to be interrelated in certain parts, but it's asking yourself How important is this problem? Is this thing I want to go fight about? How important is it to me? Is it to my team? Is it to this company? Is it to the potential benefit versus the potential harm that it's going to do to me to my team or to anything else? Because the reality is that there are costs to going against the grain. And you've got to make sure that it's worth it. Now, if you can do this enough times, if you can become successful, the times where you will initially be deified as being crazy, you will be deified as being the person that rubs everybody the wrong way, who wants to pick these fights who wants to do things differently? The funny part is, whenever you find success, they will then very quickly seek you out for that very reason, because too many people have become comfortable with the status quo. You know, this is the way we've always done things. And because of that, this is the way we're going to continue to do things. They say it like somehow it's a positive while in your head. You just want to start screaming and running around and slapping people because you know that It's the very thing that's holding the work and every this entire place back, because that status quo is actually allowing everybody else to just kind of get away with crap work. But think about that. Is this really an important problem? Is this really something that's going to be worth it? Is it as one of my friends would say, is the juice worth the squeeze? Because at the end of it, if the fight is disproportionate to the result, you may need to think about is that the fight you really want to start with having? Is there a different way you can do it is there definitely you can go about it. Because those have been some of the hardest ones for me is that at the end of it, I get the change that I want. But the road took so long, the cost was so high on me mentally, emotionally, inspirationally, all in political capital and all these other things that yes, I got the change that I needed, but the cost was just too high, that I should have taken on something different. I should have stepped back or I should have found a different way in because it's like I said, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. The next part. And this is the interesting part, because I think part of what this is gonna be is about how do you have a fight? That is not emotional? And because I think that a lot of cases, people at work and other people who've been around me will hear me refer to strategy refer to me and how I think about positioning the team in terms of thinking about how do I actually go about picking a fight, that it's chess, not checkers? And the reason why is because I think that you need to be strategic, you need to be thoughtful, you need to understand, what is the change? Can I get it in one move? Am I going to have to get it in multiples? How do I do that? How do I move the pieces on the board to be able to get what I want? This is the essence of playing chess. Because in checkers, what I can do is just simply react to the board that's in front of me on a move by move basis. Chess is not that way. You need to be playing probably anywhere from six to eight moves ahead. In your head of I'm going to do this, they're going to do this, I want to do this. How do I see this game playing out what's the back and forth so I have all these scenarios. mapped out in my head fights the same, because what I want to do is I want to plan ahead. How am I going to describe the problem? How am I going to draw the listener in to help solving it? How am I going to rally the support I need? If I don't think that I have the political capital? How am I going to make this into this chess game to understand how am I going to go about this, because in so many cases, the problem is if you just simply attack a problem emotionally, if you just take on whatever the problem is in front of you blindly going from one to the next, without any sort of a bigger picture, without any sort of a bigger plan, your leadership becomes very happenstance. Your emotional quotient is often too high, you're seen as being erratic or non supportive, because of the fact that you don't have a plan for what that is. And often in the moment, if there's a negative reaction, you become incredibly emotional to it. Because, again, all I'm doing is reacting to a moment by moment fight, as opposed to this being more of a chess match, where I'm sure that I know what's going on. And I think that that really goes into the next piece is that If we're going to talk about being unemotional, we also need to be realistic that that's not always the case. Because in many times, if you are frustrated, if you are angry, if it is something that is not going well, you can't always get what you want. So how do you control your emotions? How do you ask yourself whether you'll be able to control your emotions? When you're in the heat of that moment when you're discussing that issue? How are you going to do? Is this something that's just a mild annoyance? Am I doing it on behalf of my team, that if somebody really pushes back and runs at me I'm going to keep my cool I'm going to be fine. Or do I know myself? Have I been candid with myself? Do I know that in certain moments or with certain particular people, you know what, they really push my buttons. They really can get under my skin. They really pissed me off. And in that moment, you know what, I might not react the way that I want. I might let my baser instincts take over. I might take the easy thing and take the easy way out and be an asshole The problem is, whenever you do that, whenever you let emotion come into it, it is no longer a chess game, it becomes a shouting match. And then it's just a game of who can kind of be a bigger bitch, who can be a bigger asshole who can do whatever that is. And that is a place where nobody wins. Because, again, this isn't the WWE. This isn't, you know, the Real Housewives of I don't care where they are, you know, this is work, this is your team, this is your reputation. This is your job, this is your ability to get stuff done. Because at some point in the future, you're gonna come back and need to work with that person, ask that person for a favor, ask them to support you. So again, you need to think about how is this constructive fighting? How can I control that emotion? And so I think To that end, a big part of it for me is to be sure that I have a solution. Because, you know, we've talked about this again, we talked about the last episode talked about this and other ones. Don't just point out a problem without also having a constructive solution, or at least at the very least, a plan. For how are you going to get to that solution? Anybody can point out what's wrong, anybody can run around all the time talking about all the things that are always broken, that could always be better. Because the reality is that is always going to exist. No company is perfect. No team is perfect. No person is perfect. And so we will all constantly live in a scenario where things are not perfect. And because of that, we're going to live in a scenario where you can always complain about something if you really want to. So instead of just doing that, instead of just showing up with a problem, show up with a problem. And in this case, make sure that you also have a solution or like I said, at the very least, the plan to develop one because there are times for me, I don't know what the solution is, I am pissed off and I am frustrated. And I will go to people and ask for advice. What did they think that I should do? Because I would appoint I feel like I have exhausted what those are. So in that case, at least I'm asking for how to We develop a plan, how do we it's not just look, here's all the stuff that's wrong, you know, end of line period, I'm out. It's okay. Like, look, this is what the problem is helped me get to the place where we can figure out how to get through this. It takes some vulnerability. And the funny part is I have dealt with and I think there's something to be aware of. I've done a lot of people who don't understand, they will just simply see this as complaining. They miss the part at the end, where you're asking for help they miss the part where you're saying, I need your advice. I'm leaning on you for whatever this is. And so if they miss that, make sure that you come back and you tell them and make sure you restate that point because it can be it can make a frustrating situation actually far worse. I think the next one is we talked about this as you talk about this being this game of chess, and a lot of cases what I'm doing in the game of chess is that I'm actually going through and I'm trying out different things to see how the other person is going to react. I don't think this is any different. One of the things that you want to do is to test the waters. You want to go out and this is the thing thing is that, especially if we're talking about changing things, whether it's through an initiative, a process, a team, a person, whatever it is, these are things that are difficult. These are things where a lot of people are, would much rather keep something, even if it's broken, because the broken is familiar, then to actually go out and change something, because that's going to be more difficult. So test the idea, test the solution, test your support, test what it is that you think you want to do, before you dive into the deep end and start to be able to get into that fight to be able to start to be able to try to change things. Because the other part that you want to do is in in many cases, if I can prove that I have support, if I can prove that I've tried it on a smaller scale, if I can prove that all of these people also agree that this is a problem. If I can also prove that I have a solution. I'm willing to help them do that. Then that makes things much, much easier because I've gone out I've tested the water. I put these ideas out there and I think that that because is really, really important. The next one for me, can be a big one. I think it's something that I've struggled with. It's something I try to do better with. But it's Don't let these things that are pissing you off. Don't let these things that you want to get into a fight about. Don't let these things that you feel like you need to change. Don't let them fester. Bring up the disagreement bring up the problem as soon as you can. So that people so that everybody, so whoever it is that's involved, knows that there's a problem. Because the problem is, is that once you want to get into that fight, once you see that problem, you see something that needs to be different, whatever that is, all of a sudden, maybe this is just for me. But it becomes this thing, and I can only describe it. Like if you ever wanted to buy something, a car, something big, I don't know what a pair of headphones something. Whenever you start to think about that thing. There's one particular car now all of a sudden you start To see that car everywhere, because it's on your mind, you're much more hyper aware of it, you're much more open and kind of like your sensory senses a little bit more in tune to what that is so that you notice that thing more. I think problems and fights are the same way that if something is pissing me off, if something is irritating me, I am so much more aware of how often it happens. I'm so much more aware of its little expressions and little things that in the past, I might not have noticed at all. But now my senses are up, my feelers are out there, I'm dialed into what this thing is because I'm getting ready to take on this fight. And the problem is, is that if you let that fester, if you sit on it too long, it becomes really destructive. It becomes something that really can kind of drive you crazy because now all of a sudden, everything starts to piss you off way more than it was before. And that really is a problem. And so I think, you know, for me, it doesn't mean just run out and do it. Don't Don't go have the emotional fight and I'll do what that is because as we talks about you need to plan ahead. But at the same point, just make sure the ahead and the plan is a time that is soon, that is something that you're going to actually engage in as you're going to start to try to change things. Because if you don't, it can turn on you. Now, as part of what this is, this entire thing, I do think that in a lot of different ways, enlisting and getting support is so incredibly critical. Because we'd mentioned this in the in the beginning. If I want to make something different, I can, I can't do it alone, especially if you work at a company of any size. You need support. You need support from your team, need support from your boss, need support from your clients, your co workers, everybody else that you deal with, you need their support. So shopping your solution around, I think you know what, it really serves the purpose of helping to build that support early. It lets other people be involved because, here again, we've talked about this In design thinking, we've talked about this in a lot of different areas, I want to go back to the basic human psychology. Because in basic human psychology, what I know is that what I want to do is I want to take advantage of what's going on, which is the fact that people will support what they're a part of. If I include my key people, if I include certain people in what it is that I'm doing, they are much more likely to help me with that change, then if I bring them a solution that's already done, because in that case, it's Do you like this Yes or no? Not. This is the problem that I'm trying to solve. This is my initial thoughts. Can we work together to help figure this out? Because that support that moment makes a really big difference because now we're all in this together. And it's not just this thing of like yes or no black or white up or down cat or dog Coke or Pepsi or whatever you can keep going. But it is making this a part of them and really making this something that then they're going to support. But I think the other part of this is, is to talk about that Coke or Pepsi, that black White sort of thing, that whenever you're going to go pick a fight, whenever you're going to go try to change things, it can't be a binary system of what I want is good. And what you do is bad. Too many people make their fights about being right or wrong. It's that black or white. And the problem is, whenever you make things that are that binary, whenever you make things that are that polar opposite, I don't leave the other person, any room to negotiate. I don't leave them any room to work. Because either you're with me or you're against me, either you totally agree with me are you immediately want to fight. And so I think that part of what this is, and I think this is why, as we talked about, you know, making sure that you have a solution and listing, you know, your supporters, controlling your emotions planning ahead. So much of this is creating the gray area between the extremes, because again, if I go to somebody early if I try to work with them, it's not just my way is right. And you're is wrong, because like I said, that forces them into a fight or flight sort of mentality. So you need to make sure that whenever you're doing this, that you're fighting constructively. You shouldn't fight any battle if you can't do it constructively. And that's the thing is I look, I know there are moments. Whenever that sounds really logical, but dammit, you just want to clean your claws on somebody. If your goal is to just hurt somebody, express how unhappy you are. You're fighting for the wrong reason. Anybody can do that. Whenever we talk about doing this at work, it's different. Every single argument you have has to improve some sort of an undesirable situation process. Something you have to fight constructively you have to make sure that it's a conversation not just two armies going up against each other and one's gonna be right and one's going to be wrong because The thing that I think I've learned is that you know what, over the years, if I'm right, somebody else is wrong. I think this is why my wife and I've been together for 18 years we've been married for 14. It's not about who's right. Because if she's right, I'm wrong. If I'm right, she's wrong. It's not. nobody wins. Even if you're right, you're not. Because the problem is, is that everybody loses. And so in these moments, if I want to change something, it's about how do I have the conversation? How do I fight constructively? How do I express the fact that this does not work for me? It's not minimizing that it's not saying that that's unimportant, but it's at the end of the day, if all it is is some big emotional outburst, nothing changes. How do I let this fight be constructive? How do I let it actually lead to something changing? How do I lead it to making things better That's the real part of all this. And I think that's why it it's knowing what held the dial. And that is a phrase that was coined by somebody I used to work with, or one of the best collaborators I ever had. And she was always going to talk about that about you can't die on every hill, you need to figure out which ones are the ones that are worth dying on. And I think that's a big part of this. But I think the last thing that you need to do is to really even when you do the planning, you do the chest you do all this sort of stuff. Is it you still have to be prepared for the response from the other person and think about if you can deal with that. Can you deal with the criticism Can you deal with somebody? If it goes really well and they say you don't you're absolutely right. This is broken. This needs to change. I'm with you. You know rain, champagne and puppies great. What if it goes the other way? If they look at you and say I don't have time for this, I don't agree with you. I think it's perfectly fine. Nothing needs to change. Do you have the strength come up with a plan B find another way in a Plan C f h m w like whatever you are you willing to go that far to be able to do it? You know, have you thought through what their response might be? Because I think a big part of this and also again, being a successful person who can change things, it's a bit like debate. I need to think about what are the arguments that they're gonna make? How do I defuse those landmines before I hit them? How do I go out and do that test, get that support, test that water? Don't let things fester? Like a lot of these sort of things. So I'm making sure that I'm going through, you know, and I'm getting to this soon. But I'm also thinking about what could their possible responses be? What could they come back? What are their negatives going to be? What are their counter is going to be what are my blind spots on this? And how do I go through and actually do this? So again, that it actually leads to an actual change? Because the biggest thing I've seen over the years is that fights happen. And in too many cases, things get better. For a little bit of time. There's some big emotional outburst. I don't like this, whatever this is, we make a couple little tweaks. But it didn't solve the underlying problem. So in a few weeks, what we ended up with is more process. That nobody wanted. That makes sure that we document whatever it was that wasn't working in some way that has a bit more my new show than what it did before. But oddly enough, the same problem seems to creep back up again. Something still isn't working, people still aren't getting along, work still isn't getting better. Because no one stopped to understand why this keeps happening. Because I think the big part in all of this is we talk about what is the real solution to this is that you've got to get to the real problem. And we've talked about this a little bit before and we talked about how do you actually deal with problem people and different things like that. You need to make sure that the outcome of any fight is going to change the process, it's going to change the way that people actually think. Not just the way they behave. Because that's the problem is that too often what we're doing is we're triaging the moment, the instance the occurrence or whatever the problem So we're going after the project manager in the in what they're doing not actually understanding that the project manager is this the expression of the process that has actually broken. We're going after someone's behavior, not after the thinking that is fueling that behavior. So I think it's just, it's an incredibly critical part in this is to make sure that you take that step back, and kind of just say, Okay, look, is this just one little small thing? That you know what, we're gonna yell at each other, and we're gonna, you know, everybody will be on their better behavior for a few weeks, but then it's just gonna come back up. Are we really looking at what's broken? What's the real problem here? How do we step back and understand, on a personal level, on a process level on a team level on whatever these different ways are? How do we step back and understand what's the underlying problem? What's the thinking? That's really driving this? Because I think that's when I got a lot better at fighting. Whenever I wasn't responding to somebody's behavior, and the expression of what the problem was, I was stepping back and saying Okay, this person this process, this team, this, whatever it was, what's the thinking that led to that process? What's the thinking that leads to that behavior? What's the thinking that leads to that approach? Because if I can go attack that. The other thing that it does is that it no longer is personal. I'm attacking a process, I'm attacking a way of thinking, I'm not kind of saying like, Okay, this person, I don't like them. It just makes it different. It takes for me, it took a lot of the emotion out of it. And I think that that's a really important kind of part in all this. So let's wrap this up with just two do's and don'ts just to kind of walk away. This is the, the big thing that you walk away from, what are the two of each of these, I think on the do side is make sure that you do have a viable solution, or at least a plan of attack. And you've got to have that in mind before you raise the problem. You can't just be the person who goes in and says, look, let's go pick an emotional fight. Let's just point out there's a problem. You're not gonna be successful. But the other thing that we did Talk about is to also make sure that you do think about and are careful about how many battles Do you take on. Because you can run out of political capital, people can run out of patience, you can run out of support. This can be incredibly difficult. Because your team may want you to solve 10 things you only have the political capital to solve to. I think that you need to try to be as transparent as you can about that. They may not always like that answer, you may disappoint them, I would only tell you to get used to it. Because in a lot of cases, a lot of different ways. Even if you want something to happen, it doesn't mean that it will happen. But just to be mindful, again, play that game of chess about how many of these Can I take on at a time how much capital Do I have how well defended is my position to be able to do this? But on the downside, don't just rely on your boss to to wage your fights for you. Go to them with a thought out plan. But understand that you need to be the person that brings the change. You need to be the at whatever your level is, I don't care if you're the boss, I don't care if you're the intern, you can create change inside of yourself inside of your team inside of your process inside of anything else if you do it the right way, and if you're smart about it, but the being smart about it is that you don't want to do this stuff. You don't want to dive in until you floated that idea, past some people that you trust. And you really want to make sure that both of you know really well. You know what it is that's at stake here that you understand what that is, but you're getting that unbiased opinion. You have somebody who can take that step back, who has the unbiased opinion, who doesn't have the emotional connection, who isn't that person that might be letting something fester. But I think so much of change is your willingness to fight. But to fight smart to fight, constructive to fight so that something actually changes. Because people at the end of the day board members have changed. They don't remember the fight. It's the same way at the end of the day. People will know the work They don't remember the excuses. They don't remember all the other things that went into why it ended up the way that it did. All that stuff gets forgotten. They just remember the end result. This is the same. The only way that they're going to remember the fight is if you did it the wrong way. If you're combative, if you're the asshole, if you're the person who is just goes in there without a plan, who is emotional, who just wants to point out how everything is wrong. That's what they remember, that are expected. They don't like it, they don't support it. And ultimately, you're not going to be successful for it. So just take some time and think about these things. Whenever you go in to try to change something to go pick that fight to know what Hill Do you die on. So as always, if you found any of this helpful, take a couple seconds, go to your favorite podcast platform, leave a review, click the stars, write a couple words. Let people know how you feel. Make sure that while you're there, you hit the subscribe button. So you make sure that whenever the new episodes come out, you're getting those. As always you can find the notes about everything that I've talked about here. You can listen to other episodes, all this stuff head over. a podcast Stephen Gates calm Stephen is still STP he AND gates like Bill Gates comm if you have any questions, reach out to me on social media I'm on you name it, send me a message. Always try it right back as quickly as I can. You can also kind of join up with the community head over to Facebook type in The Crazy One podcast like that page. I post articles every week, I post weekly inspirations every Friday, you can write to me on there, ask me questions, put it out in public, if you want to do that you're afraid your boss might be on there to send it to me privately don't want to get anybody fired. But it's one of those things where Look, I'm always here to help. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out. As always, everybody down and legal wants me to remind you that the views here are just my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. These are just my own thoughts. And finally, I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only real luxury that any of us have. I'm always incredibly humble that you want to spend any of it with me. So until next time, go out, pick that fight, make that difference. And the whole time while you do it. Stay crazy.