Ep 51 Leadership: How to work with underperforming people and teams

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates tackles one of the hardest leadership challenges: managing difficult conversations with underperforming individuals and teams. Learn how to approach struggling team members versus addressing issues with the entire team, and discover the critical role you play as a leader in navigating these tough discussions. Tune in to gain practical strategies for handling challenging situations with empathy, clarity, and effectiveness to drive real improvement.

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Stephen Gates : 0:00

What's going on everybody and welcome into the 51st episode of The Crazy One podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design and a whole host of things that matter to creative people. Now if you liked the show, if you've been enjoying it if you're getting anything out of it, make sure you hit subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms so you know when the newest shows come out. And whenever you're there, hitting that subscribe button, take a couple seconds click on the stars write a couple words, but leave a review makes a big difference brings more people into the show gets the word out and I definitely appreciate it. Now I'm a little bit road weary. I have been on the road for the past couple of weeks, I spent a week in Las Vegas doing four sessions at Adobe Max and just flew back from Toronto where I did a talk on leading creative teams for design thinkers, Toronto, one of the things that I've been seeing over the course of all those talks is a theme. A similar question that I keep getting whenever we get to the q&a section of these talks. And honestly, it's a question I've been getting for a long time. So I felt like, since so many people are asking this, we need to do a show about it, we need to be able to sit down and look at this subject. And what I get asked is, what does a leader do? What does a person to a creative director do if they either have an individual person, or they have an entire team that's struggling? The work isn't good, it isn't up to where it needs to be. And they just don't know what to do. They can't figure out how do you get this person or these people to change or to get any better? What do you do? And how do you make the hard decisions around that? And how do you do it in a way that honestly is human about the way that you do it? And this is not an easy subject by any means. I think it's why so many people are struggling with it. Because on the one hand, as a leader on the one hand, as somebody who is responsible for this work, you have to make sure that the work that you're producing is up to snuff the work is the truth. The work is the representative of your team. It's the very reason why While you're there, and you can't ever apologize for holding people to that standard, you can't let the work slip, just because some people aren't on the team aren't working up to their potential and they aren't working up to that standard. So you have to be able to figure out how do I be able to keep them in that place a meal to get the work better. But on the other hand, you have to be human about this, you have to give people a chance, you have to have compassionate about it. Because the thing that we're talking about is creativity. it's debatable. Everybody solves problems differently. They come at problems differently. And so I have to make sure that I'm giving them the chance I have to make sure that I'm putting a structure in place that's going to be fair, that's going to be equitable, that's going to give them the chance to be able to step up whenever you talk about people who are underperforming. You know that the one possibility the end of this is that you may have to let people go. This is something that I've had to do over the course of my career. I've had to just straight out fire people I've had to close studios, I've had to lay people off. And I've been on the other side of this where two times I've been the person that's been laid off, I have been laid off as just a number that was part of a corporate organization. I've been targeted very directly because of kind of the people I aligned myself with and everything in between. But the reason why this is so serious, and the reason why I want to do an episode about this, is because, yes, it's about the work. Yes, it's about creativity. But that can't Trump. And it can't overwhelm the fact that at the end of the day, we're talking about affecting people's lives. We're talking about affecting their livelihood and everything that comes with that. And that is not something that ever needs to be taken lightly. So I'm not the person that just simply says I will base on a first impression. We're just going to make a bunch of blind decisions. So I want to talk about three things today in the hopes that I can give you some of the things that I've done that may be able to help you and we're going to talk about how do you deal with an issue individual person who is underperforming, so just one person, then how do you actually deal with a team that isn't really performing? Because those are two different things. And then lastly, I want to talk about what are some of the leadership challenges they're gonna be up to you to be able to take on as you go through working through these problems. Because this is a very unique situation that comes with some very distinct challenges that you're going to need to think about and that you're going to need to step up and really lead here. So let's start with talking about just an individual person. And there were a few different challenges if we want to talk about this. The first is honestly that everyone has to pull their own weight. So I need every person to be able to step up to the same level as the rest of the team. Because the challenge is going to be at the end of the day. A single person can have very negative side effects on a team, because what can happen is one if the rest of the team seems that you're letting someone slide the You're letting the standard of work fall for one person, they can start to become resentful, they can start to question why is that person different? Why is that person getting special treatment and not me, and then that can then start to fester. And then what can happen is that you can actually start to lose some of your best people because of some of your worst people. Because I don't want to lose that Rockstar designer, I don't want to lose that Rockstar writer, because of an intern who doesn't know what it is they're doing. And I think that that can be an extreme case. But I think that the other thing for me and the way that I will try to approach it whenever I would talk to an individual is that so many times what I've found is that the problem that they're dealing with is something serious, maybe it's something deep rooted, maybe it's something that's very personal, and that the challenge is going to be and the conversation that I want to try to start to have is around the fact that whether it's this team that they're on right now with me, and if they decide that they don't want to deal with this, they want to leave in a to go want to go to another team that this problem will follow them. And that it's something that they're going to need to face sooner rather than later. Because I try to take a broad view on things, I try to get multiple perspectives, I try to never make it a personal issue around things that I want to make sure that I'm talking and getting a lot of different perspectives. But if the ad is the outcome of that, I do see that there is a challenge there. I want to try to help them I want them to be able to have a place where they can work through this problem where we can acknowledge it, because that's really the part with all this is that you know, this is the thing is that as an individual, it's hard. This is why we can give advice to so many other people about exactly what they should do. But then we can't turn that high power perception on ourselves. Sometimes we don't know what to do sometimes. We know that it's a challenge, but it's so hard to say it out loud. It's so hard to be able to admit that you know that something's not working. And now, for me as a leader, I think that the only fair way to start Start this discussion is to make sure that I'm going into it with very specific examples that we can talk about, about where this problem is coming up. You can't deal in generalities. You can't deal in feelings, you can't deal in things like that. Because the problem is, is that it's not constructive. There's nothing I can do with it. I don't know where to go from that. This is why so often I find whenever you do those kind of generic feedback surveys or generic leadership surveys, that they're so frustrating for me, because what they lack so often is that they lack context. They will say, oh, Steve, should he be doing more of Steve should be doing less of x. But without a context for me to understand who said it, what was the context they set it in? What is it that they actually meant? It becomes this sort of generic thought that I'm not quite sure how to action against. So whenever you want to go into a conversation with an individual, make sure that you have those very specific examples. What happened, of what you feel like they were feeling and how other people felt as well, because I want to try to bring as many diverse sort of perspectives to the table around this. And because that's the thing is that what I want to make sure is that this isn't just saying that they're bad. It's not that they're wrong. It's not piling on. It's not just saying, You're hopeless. And all we're trying to do is to figure out how to get rid of you. I would genuinely want it to be a conversation to try to figure out how to help this person. Now, the reality is, is that where that conversation goes from there, and this is going to be a theme throughout this show, where the conversation goes from there is very much then up to that individual. Because for me, if people are willing to be open to the feedback, if they're willing to hear it, if they're willing to try to change to understand it, to understand that there is value in what other people think, and that there may actually be a problem here that they need to face. Well, then that's a case where I will fight for that person. I'll give them chances as long as they keep trying. But the thing is, is that if they don't If they want to deny it, if they want to get really defensive, if they want to make this into a fight, well, then that starts to put this onto a different path. And I think that that's one of the things that over the years I've had to become comfortable with is that in so many ways, I think my leadership style becomes a reflection of the energy that people give me. If you work with me, and you respect me, and you actually include me and things, and everything, things are a conversation and not a statement, I will try to be the best collaborator I can do, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I will try to always be the one that comes to you and support you, even if I don't necessarily understand all the circumstances around it because of that respect. But if you don't show respect, if you don't try to work with people if you don't try to become collaborative or open and it just simply becomes about statements not about questions. Well, then I think that I become a reflection of that I feel like most people do. I don't know if most people are aware of it, but I just think you become very much a reflection of that energy. Now, that's really where you want to get into this because what I want to then start to do is Don't just show up and say, Okay, look, you know, you, Jane, Bob, whoever, here's the challenge, here's what it is we need to work on. Here's what the problem is. The other thing that I want to make sure that I do is that there is a road forward, what is going to happen next, not just show up and say, hey, look, there's something that people don't like, go fix it. That's isolating. That's, you know, it feels very territorial. It doesn't feel collaborative. It's not being a leader. It's just simply pointing out a problem. And you know, any jackass can do that, it's always easier to actually be able to just point out the problems than to actually be the one who's going to try to fix them. So I think that if you go back to Episode 48, we can tie these two episodes together, because in that episode, I talked about coaching and how you always want to do this sort of three step process of defining the problem defining the outcome, and then kind of what's the RLS I think that it really sort of repeats here because in this case, for that individual, I want to do that I wanted to find what is the problem Is it with the work? Is it with the team? What's going on there? What's the outcome that we need to change it. And for me, in so many cases, that's just simply posing, what the outcome we want is not necessarily posing a how to get there. Because in so many cases, solving problems, you know, it's like exercise or diet or any of these other things. If you can't find a personal and sustainable solution that you're gonna be able to stick with. It's not going to work. It's just going to be window dressing, you're going to come in and do a bunch of things that look like you're trying to change, but ultimately, you're going to backslide into what you're doing before. So for me, it's about letting that person then find their way forward. But giving them a chance, giving them time giving them the opportunity to be able to do that and then giving them candid feedback along the road about how they're doing. But I think just to think about that, to put the shoe on the other foot to go into the conversation, say if the roles were reversed, how would I want my boss, my leader, my whatever it is to handle conversation. If it's accusatory if it's just piling on, if it's just saying you have a problem offering no coaching, no solution, no support. How do you feel coming out of that? How much do you want to work for this person? or How much do you really feel like there's any incentive or any reason to even try to fix it? So for an individual, I really think it's an important to go into it and think about it that way. Now, as we start to talk about a team, and I think this is this is where the bulk of the questions that I get are around teams, because for many people, you know, you can inherently try to figure out how do I deal with a person one on one, whenever I have a team of people, there are different challenges, and there are different techniques. And you know, like, it would seem obvious that a team is a group of people so you have a group of problems that you need to work through. But I am not sure that people necessarily think about it that way. I think that what they see is just a whole bunch of different people and they aren't really sure. How do you change the mentality of a group? How do I change the Thinking of a group. And so there are a few things that I will focus on whenever I'm working on trying to turn a team around. One of it is to clearly set a process. How is it we work? What are just the basic blocking and tackling expectations of how things get done, when things get done? How are things going to be delivered? How do we communicate with clients, just the basics, because what I don't want to assume is that they know this is something that I have been guilty of Far too many times in my career is making an assumption. I will assume that Oh, everybody understands the you know, what the roles and responsibilities of everybody on the TMR, everybody should understand what the process is of how you deliver things. Everybody should well, but everybody doesn't. Everybody comes from a different background. Everybody comes from a different place. So what I want to make sure that I do first and foremost is to make sure that I'm 100% positive that I've removed all assumptions. There are no more assumptions around process or timing or any of the things that I really talked about, because I want to make sure that I have a strong and clear foundation that I can then start to set everything else on top of. Because by doing that, again, we've cleared up any mystery, we've cleared up any sort of difference in the way that we're doing these things. Because then when I want to start to do is to talk about the standard for the work, the number of ideas, we have the quality of those ideas, showing the work in the way that we get to those ideas, the way that we collaborate and doing some of those other things. So that we're sure that again, we are clear about what the quality of that work is going to be. And that we want to define who is then going to be held accountable for those things because the team and individuals on that team have to be a part of this process. Because here again, this can't just be us a leader coming in and telling people what to do, coming in and complaining at them telling them that they aren't doing what it is that they're doing. And then just simply letting them figure it out. Here again, I want to show leadership I want to remove ambiguity. So this is my thing is to say okay, whenever it comes to time Timing who's accountable whenever it comes to brainstorming who's accountable. This is was I referred to it as I like the one throat to choke model. It's just simpler if I know that there is one person who's accountable for these things. Because the other part of this is that what I need to do is that there has to start to be clear accountability, there has to be consequences to things. Because for things to change, people have to know that these things are going to get pulled out into the light of day, you have to know that every problem is going to be addressed, I have to know that every issue is going to be taken on no matter how easy or no matter how hard they are. Because the thing that I want to do is that I want to send a clear message to the team and set a clear bar by which we're going to work going forward. Because here again, what I don't want to do is that I don't want to really kind of come in and just make arbitrary decisions. I want everybody to be clear about things. And now the reality is that in many cases, this is gonna make a lot of people uncomfortable. And that's the way most people are because whenever you do change Whenever you do things that are new people get uncomfortable, especially whenever now we're talking about that I'm gonna be held to new standards, I'm going to be asking more of these people, I'm going to be asking them to rise up. And that's gonna be the thing is that you have to know and understand that that's going to happen, acknowledge it, say, Look, I know this is gonna be uncomfortable. I know this is gonna be hard. But this is change that has to happen. And this also is something that I would tell you that you don't do it in little increments. Don't kind of say, like, oh, we're gonna make, you know, one little tweak here and one little tweak here and one little, it's a lot easier, it's kind of a little lazier way to be able to do it. But if you genuinely want to bring about change in a team, you have to reset the norms with which they work. And you have to be able to go in and do it in a way that they can be able to react to that because I need to see, really two things because what's going to happen is whenever I come in and you start to recalibrate these norms, you're going to see that some people will embrace them, they're going to rise to the challenge and that those are the ones I want to keep my eye on. Those are the ones that I really want to kind of look to I'm able to give a little bit more responsibility because they're gonna be the foundation. And they're gonna be the heart of where I want this team to go. Because the thing that you'll find is that there are tons of people who just are waiting for the opportunity, they're waiting for somebody to run up the hill ahead of them to give them permission to be able to step up and do these things. But that's the thing is that they don't have the I don't know what it is the internal strength, they don't have the ability to just simply do it on their own. And that's fine. Not everybody is going to be wired that way to be able to kind of be the first person to run up the hill. And that's perfectly alright. But what I want to do is I want to see who are those people who've been waiting for this opportunity? Who are the ones that are going to embrace it, who are going to see it as an opportunity, as opposed to those who are going to resist, they're going to complain, they're going to keep working like the old days, they're not going to engage they're gonna feel like they're better or different or above all this other stuff and that somehow a different set of rules apply to them. And those are going to be the people that are going to be the challenge because the thing is that I will say is that just because they resist doesn't mean you should write them off. It doesn't mean you write a team off, because not everyone is going to change and trust easily. But the thing is going to be, how do I get them to engage? How do I see that there's potential in there? How do I get some reaction out of them? And this is why and I've talked about this in the past. In so many cases, what I'm going to do is I'm going to sit down, I wanted to find that process, I wanted to find those standards. You've heard me talk before about setting beliefs, what does the team believe in? And then to be very clear, at this point, about setting What is my expectation that at this point, what I'll usually do is I'm going to say that I'm going to give them 60 to 90 days, depending on the size of the challenge the team, there are a lot of different variables that go into this. But what I want to do is I want to give that time to see how are they going to react to this new system to this new process to these new standards? Are things gonna get better, are they gonna stay the same? Because what I want to do here is that I really want to also make sure that I have the time to lean in, to work with them to support them to be able to Let them really kind of figure these things out and be able to kind of do that. But to know that they have my support. Again, this is not just me saying, hey, there's a problem, good luck. Because at the end of the day, ultimately, what this really comes down to for me is that if I'm going to have to make a decision, to change somebody's job to get them off the team, or to give them the chance to leave the team, that I need them to be able to have time to work through this stuff to be able to figure these things out. And I will openly say in many cases that you know what, this is one of those fork in the road moments. Because what the team and the people are going to do is that either they're going to start figuring out how do they make changes? How do they rise to this, how they start to work through the problems or how do they start making excuses for why none of that's going to be possible. And the challenge for me, the challenge for you, as a leader is going to be the diff the excuses. If those outnumber the changes, then it's going to be up to me to make decisions about what am I going to do to get this team where it needs to be? How am I going to be able to get that work there. And this is excruciating Lee hard, especially if it comes to a place where the team isn't responding. And the thing that I've seen is that too many people in this moment, they take the easy way out, they take the lazy way out, they right off the team, they take a first impression, they don't show very much leadership. And all that they do is they just simply decide just kind of, you know, abstractly what it is they want to do. Because it's just, it's easier on them. It's easy for them to make that decision. They don't have to get involved. They don't have to have the hard conversations. They don't need to sit down with people. What they do is they do the happy manager talk. Whatever, what they should do is they should go in and tell people exactly what is the situation, what are they up against? What are the things that you're faced with? And what are the consequences if things don't change? Well, instead of doing that, what they do is they take the easy road, they go in and they smile. They've had everybody on the back they tell everybody how great things are gonna be and they give them that sort of happy bullshit manager talk about you know, how fine everything Is because it's easier on them. But here's the thing is we want to talk about leadership in this process is that it isn't easy for a person or for a team. I think that this is one of the hardest things you'll have to go through as a leader. You have to give them clear and honest feedback through this process. So they know how things are going. I don't want to take the cowardly way out, and just tell them what they want to hear. Tell them nothing at all. Because yes, that's easier on me, but it disrespects them. Even if they're doing badly. I just, I'd feel the need that you look, you got to be honest with them. Because if they need, if they decide that this isn't for them, that it's a standard that they don't want to hit, they don't want to be a part of that team, that's fine, then they can take that time, we can have that conversation, they can say that that is the road that they want that they don't feel like they're gonna be a part of this. I can then recalibrate my expectation for them and say, Okay, great, we will give you whatever it is 60 or 90 days for you to find something else. And then we can work through that together. So there's a mutually amicable part Other ways, because it's fine if they don't want to be a part of this, not everybody wants to be on my team, not everybody thinks I'm smart. Not everybody thinks I'm a good leader, not everybody's gonna buy into what it is that I want to do. I'm fine with that. And but I'm also realistic about that. That is the reality. And because that's the reality, I want to have honest conversations with people about where they stand on this stuff, because they deserve better from their leaders than the, you know what, like I said before, if the role is reversed, that's what I would want somebody to do for me. And because the thing is, is that to hold people to these standards to have these hard conversations, it's going to take leadership, it's going to take determination, and this is the part that most leaders don't like they shy away from it. And then they want to know why the team doesn't improve why the person doesn't improve whenever they aren't willing to put the same level of effort into this process that they're asking for from the person or for the team. And that that's a real problem. Because here's the thing, If I want to make a decision like this, I ultimately and I don't know how else to say this, I want the decision to be based on that person's actions, I want the outcome of this process to be up to them. I want them to have a fighting chance for what's going to happen. Not to simply say, oh, we're closing this dude, you're not just simply say, I'm gonna leave this person off. I mean, obviously login, there's some egregious problem. They're lying there, you know, not showing up to work. That's a different case. But if this is somebody who is actually present, then that's the thing is that I want the outcome of this to be up to them. It's the only humane way it's the only human way that I know how to go through this process. Because on the one hand, I am on the hook for results. It is an inextricable reality for the fact that whenever you do commercial work, you do design for money, that people expect results. And there are some brutal realities that come along with that that are inescapable. But that's the thing is that because those realities are brutal doesn't mean that I have to be, I can try to do this in a way that will at least give people a chance and and that you need to again, see if they're really trying. And you'll know it's easy to see if they're just kind of going through the motions, but nothing is actually changing. Are they really trying to step up? Because here again, when we talk about coaching, and we talk about leadership, you're not going to get there all in one jump. But if I've said, Okay, look, ultimately, I want them to end up in this place. And then I can break that back into six little pieces that they're going to go through six steps that I want them to go through, and that they are working through those steps to be able to get there. You need to fight for that person, you need to give them a chance. You need to invest in them to give them the chance to be able to step up and do that. Because that's really the thing here is that, you know, you've got to believe in your people. Because that's the thing is if you don't if you just don't believe in them, if you don't want to put in this work. If you don't want to do that, then honestly don't torture them. Don't go through this process, don't pretend like there's gonna be a different outcome of your day know what it is? Because, again, why are you doing this, like, just tell them what the reality is gonna be telling what the outcome is gonna be and what the timeframe is. Because at least there's some honesty in that. Because at the end of the day, I'm one of those people. You know what, in a weird way, I'll respect you if you stab me in the chest, because at least you look me in the face, and you're honest about it when you do it, as opposed to going around behind my back having a bunch of kind of different agendas and doing things like that. But to go through it, and like I said, to have that conversation, define a timeframe for them. How long does this process gonna take? You know, and that's the thing is that, you know, and that's the timeframe doesn't have to be very complete change, but what progress Do you need to see, tell them and be honest with them about these things. And like I said before, also define the consequences, because the last thing is to define what's the potential outcome. And that is an incredibly difficult conversation to have. But here again, you've got to tell them the truth. Tell them why you're challenging them to make these changes. Why is this important? What is going on in the bigger organization, whether it's your decision or it's an organizational change, it could be a shift. There are a lot of these sort of things that happen. But let them understand what it is. And that's the thing is that, you know, this is your chance to be able to do that. And and the thing that I can tell you is that, even if you do all of this, if you try to give them a chance, if you try to put their fate in their hands, some people will rise, some people will change. And look, I think that's the thing is that I'm at a point in my career, where I really feel like the greatest work that I've done isn't in my portfolio anymore. The greatest work and some of the things I'm the most proud of, they're the people that I've been able to help. They're the the careers that I've been able to change. They're the the people that I've been able to empower and let them see that they were more than even they thought they could be. It is an incredible, incredible experience to help somebody do that. But the channel is going to be those are rare. And then just as many cases, there's that positive. They're also the people that you try to do this with, if they give up. They blame everybody else. They make excuses. They want you they need somebody, they need you to be the bad guy, no matter how honest you are with them. And that hurts, it's hard. And again, you know, we can't act like you know, whenever you're coming in, and, you know, telling somebody, they're underperforming, or that we may affect or end their career with this particular company. That's not personal. So I think it's also go into it, understanding that those are all possible and plausible outcomes to be able to do all of this. And that you have to make sure that you're ready for all that. You have to make sure that this is what it is that you want to do. Because if you want to do that, if you want to bring about that change, if you want to make that bet and believe in them, that you see that they can become more than what they are that you can see that they have the talent, but they just simply need to be Apply it in a different way, then you have to make sure that you are just as determined to lead them there to lean in to coach every single day, every single hour every single minute to try to help them get better. Because if you're not going to sign up for that, then don't come talk to me about how you want your team to do better. Don't come tell me about how you know you're lost about why things aren't changing why things aren't getting better, that it's your team's fault, that they're just simply underperforming. What you need to do is you need to look in the mirror, and you need to figure out what are you as a leader? What are you doing? Are you leading the way? Are you stepping up and stepping in trying to make things better? Because if you're just gonna mail it in, and you're gonna do all those things, which is again, what I see so many people do I see so many leaders that pissed me off, because they'll complain about their team, but whenever I ask them, what are they doing to actually get them better? What are they doing to lead? The complaints are pretty long, and the answers are pretty short. And so I think that's the thing with this is that at the end of the day, these are the techniques I can tell That's all that they are, how that you apply them how serious you are about this, how much you want to invest in changing your team, that's gonna be up to you to figure out, that's going to be up to you to figure out how much do you want to lean in and care. Because at the end of the day, the best teams that I've ever built, the best teams I've ever been a part of, and that have produced the best work. Were the teams that we knew that we were invested in each other, that this is a creative process, things will go wrong, things are going to go sideways, we are going to have disagreements, all that's going to happen. But at the end of the day, we're invested in each other. We're invested in growing together, we're invested in figuring it out together, maybe we don't have all the answers, and that's fine. But we're gonna figure this out together because that's what a team is not just simply one person telling everybody else what to do. And so that's really the thing I want to leave you with, I think I want you to think about is to think about how are you investing in those people? How are you leaning in? How are you leading and giving them a plan? How are you setting those expectations? And doing all those things that you know that they need, and that to make sure that you're holding up your end of the bargain, and not just simply complaining about how they're not holding up theirs. So like I said in the beginning, if you find any of this helpful, go subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast platform, leave a review. The other thing that I do for every one of these shows is that if you want to actually get all the show notes, I take everything that I use for whenever I do the show. Put it all up on podcast, Stephen Gates, calm Stephen as always as St. p, h, n. And you can go through and you can see related articles, you can get all the notes, you can do all those sort of things, listen to other episodes, it's all up there. Go ahead if you want to if you have any questions you can follow me on pretty much any social media platform you can like the show on Facebook, just go and type in The Crazy One podcast. You'll find the page on Facebook, ask questions, I'm posting articles, but also reach out if you have any questions or things like that do in a public forum, no to private forum. Do that. All Any of those things, I'll try to help as much as I can. As always, the boys down illegal want me to remind you that all of us here are my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. These are just all my own thoughts. And I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only real luxury that any of us have, and was incredibly humbled that you want to spend any of it with me. So hopefully, you found this helpful. Hopefully, you're going to go in on Monday and start to dig in and try and figure out how you can turn that person or that team around and what your role is going to be in doing that. And while you're doing that, and as always, stay crazy.