One of the biggest challenges comes from company executives who throw out ideas that are blindly followed instead of taking the time to understand the real problem. In this episode, I will walk you through the most common places where this happens and how you can overcome it to let your team be creative and empowered.
SHOW NOTES:
http://thecrazy1.com/episode-37-creativity-how-to-stop-executive-interference-in-your-creative-process/
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One of the biggest challenges comes from company executives who throw out ideas that are blindly followed instead of taking the time to understand the real problem. In this episode, I will walk you through the most common places where this happens and how you can overcome it to let your team be creative and empowered.
SHOW NOTES:
http://thecrazy1.com/episode-37-creativity-how-to-stop-executive-interference-in-your-creative-process/
FOLLOW THE CRAZY ONE:
Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook
What's going on everybody, and welcome into the 37th episode of The Crazy One podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design, and a ton of other stuff that matters to creative people. Now, first, a quick apology for those of you who subscribe to the show regularly. I know it's been a few weeks since we've had a new show and apologies for that. I have been traveling working like a crazy person. And quite frankly, for the past week or so, have had a cold that had me sound like I don't know what it sounded like, but it wouldn't be good and it's not something you'd want to listen to. So today is the first day where I actually sound like myself again, and we're going to take advantage of that and record a show. If you've listened to this show for any amount of time. On a number of different occasions, you've heard me talk about how one of the biggest challenges for creative teams is that you really need to be making sure that whenever you get a project, that that project is a problem that your team can solve. Rather than a solution that needs to be vetted. And I wanted to put a little bit of a finer point on that today, and I wanted to look at what I think is probably one of the biggest problems, one of the biggest offenders whenever it comes to this, especially if you work for an in house creative team, and that is executive interference in your creative process. We're gonna just look at a couple different things in the show today. The first one is going to look at exactly what the hell does that mean, it sounds very interesting. It's like, but just exactly what does it mean? And I think you're gonna find out that a lot of you, if not all of you have probably run into this in your careers, if not your current project. We're going to look at how and when does it happen? Are there two instances in particular, I think you can really, really wreak havoc, and we're going to take a look at what those are. And then finally, we're going to look at how do you overcome it? How is this something that you can get past How can you learn what's going on? And how can you come out the other side stronger. So let's start with just the basics. Quick question of just what the hell is executive interference. And like I said before, I this is a huge problem that I see for creative teams. And this is one of those things, we talked about it in design thinking we've talked about in the episode on internal teams, that to be successful, one of the things that you really have to be able to do is to articulate back to your client a solution to a problem. But too often, what happens is that whenever you get that problem, it's not actually really a problem. It's a solution that's already baked. They just want you to bring it to life to vet it to give it legs and let it walk around the room. Executive lead, creativity, executive lead design, it goes by a bunch of different names, I think is probably the most common and the hardest instance of this problem to fight. And it's like I said before, I've seen this on agency sides. I've seen it on client side teams, but I think it's for the agency, the in house, both of those really, really struggle with how to get past it. But what does it actually mean? And so in its simplest terms, the way that I would describe this is that in every company, every organization, there is usually a leadership team. And this is a group of powerful and important executives, they can have all sorts of different titles, they could be the CEO, they could be the chief marketing officer, they could be the head of digital, and there are a lot of different positions they could hold. You know, one of the things that you'll see is that generally, they're fairly easy to identify. And the way that you can identify them is just sit in a meeting especially the bigger the meeting they usually a faster it is to spot this and listen. And what you'll find is their name, used as a way to get things done their their name comes up a lot as well, you better do it because and for the for this particular story for this particular episode. For this particular lesson, let's go with something creative like Joe. So we'll say just As the name of the executive couldn't be Jane could be whatever it is. But for this one, we'll just pick Joe. And so you're sitting in the meeting and people say things like, well, Joe said he wants blank done. Joe thinks blank, and it becomes this thing where, why, in my experience, there are two things that go on here. One is most often, whether Joe actually said that is often highly debatable if you actually ever go back and get the chance to talk to them. But these executives become either in shrined or demonized, both of which are challenges. And so what I mean by that is, whenever they're in shrine, what it is, is that people will just simply blindly follow what that executive says, and we'll talk about that more in a minute. But that's a huge problem. The other thing you'll find is that so often these executives are demonized and the reason why they're demonized is because it's so much easier. If the executive is the bad guy, it's easier if the executive that that person who you never meet with Well, they made the decision that screwed you over not your boss, not your boss's boss. That person, they're the ones who did it. And so they become demonized. They become these areas where kind of like so many bad decisions are put on them. And I think both of these, quite frankly, are in most cases, in my experience, unwarranted, they're uncalled for. And in most cases, they aren't true. But the problem is, it doesn't necessarily stop it from happening. And that's the thing though, is that this is the start of the problem, because it stops people for thinking for themselves, either in the one way where they just simply will blindly do anything that is associated with that executives name. If Joe says something well, then Damn it. We're gonna go do that. Or if there's a bad decision, it is blamed on Joe well then how can you Really questioned that that person is usually multiple tiers above you in the organization. It's not usually somebody who you can go to and ask directly, hey, why the hell did you do this? So they become demonized for this. But that's the start of the problem. And that's what really want to talk about today is to talk about in these instances, where is there is this executive interference, whether it's real or whether it's just simply created as a buffer or an excuse, it causes a real problem. And the thing that I would say is that most often, I see this problem happening in two really critical places in the creative process. And so I want to talk about each one of those in a little bit more detail. Because I think both of which really, and especially if you're on an in house team, you are fighting for respect, you're fighting to shift perception, you're fighting to show the value of your team. In these moments whenever you're a process whenever your creativity is sidelined Well, then that becomes a much, much bigger problem. So let's start by taking a look at where this the first place is. And I think this is the most common one that I see all too often I've seen it throughout the entire arc of my career. And what so often happens is that there's a meeting with one of the big executives, in this case, we'll go back and say that we're meeting with Joe, we're going to discuss a problem. And in the course of that discussion, Joe would say something like, Hey, we need a T shirt. And in most cases, I would view that as he's just simply throwing it out as a possible solution. And I've seen this firsthand. I've seen it and secondhand but so often what happens is they are throwing out a potential solution. Word potential is something that's very important in that sentence. We'll come back to that more in just a minute. But the reaction that I see so often in so many organizations and so many agencies is immediate, and quite frankly, quite comical, because now all of a sudden, everyone starts running around like chickens with their heads cut off, creating briefs. Talking to agencies to create a T shirt. And the thing is, how did this happen? How is it that quite frankly, everybody became such sheep? Were just because this executive throws out an idea it is suddenly blindly taken as gospel. And the thing that I've seen too many times is that this is a painful, self fulfilling trap or loop. Let's let's say that it's a loop because this probably makes a bit more sense. But what is often going on as the executive is suggesting an idea, because so often whenever you actually sit down and talk to them, which is a very rare thing that most people don't actually take the time to do. But if you take the time to sit down and talk to them, what you're going to find out is the reason why they feel compelled to suggest ideas more often than not, is because they see these teams who come back with exactly what they're asked to do, and don't seem to be able to think for themselves. Obviously If I'm in a position of leadership, if I am in a place where I am going to be responsible to shareholders, to other executives to the bottom line to a lot of different things, results matter. And oftentimes, just as with any other part of the company, if I'm not getting what I need, I can't leave that to chance. So that first will concern them. Why are they not really getting the ideas that they need, and the more that starts to happen, you'll start to talk to them in here about how the trust in their teams the trust, the organization will start to erode. So they keep suggesting ideas. As a matter of fact, they might even start suggesting more ideas, they might start getting even more in the weeds because they're becoming more and more concerned about what's going on. The inverse of that is that the team who may have been nervous enough as it was, well, all of a sudden this executive, this important person, well, it feels like they just don't trust them anymore. And That obviously makes them nervous, because of the fact that you can tell whenever someone is acting differently, you can tell they're leaning in more than they do in other places, it becomes a concerning disconcerting thing. And that that fear causes very interesting and unfortunate reactions in people. Because what people will do whenever they're afraid, is they often lose their mind or they lose their spine. And what they're going to start to do is they want to try to protect their job. And they want to start doing it by being safe by doing exactly what's asked of them. And that's a problem, because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy now, because the executive who was worried that they weren't seeing original ideas. Now they're definitely not seeing it because these people are trying to play it safe. They're trying to make that person happy. And that that never plays as well as I think most people think that it does, because in most cases for most executives, they want people People on their teams to perform. They just don't want mindless sheep. So if that's the case, and for the moment, we'll assume that it is. And some of you may be rolling your eyes and saying, well, that's not the way my boss is. That's not the way my executive is. But we'll get to that more in just a second. For those edge cases, but let's take for a second and say, Okay, well, then how do you break this loop? And this is the role that I so often find myself having to play is to just ask a very simple one word question. It's one that we've talked about, again, a great deal in the past. The question is why? In the case of Joe, and his suggestion of a T shirt, why do we need a T shirt? And most often, whenever you ask this to the assembled team, a lot of times you'll end up with these blank kind of slack jawed gazes at you, as most people haven't really thought to take the time to ask that question or to think that that was a question that even could be wasn't allowed to be asked. Because for The more important question here. And I think the key to breaking this loop. Is that really, what did Joe mean? or more importantly, what did you want, whenever he threw out the suggestion of a T shirt, because in my experience, probably about over 90% of the time, if I stop the team, if I get them to think about what the executive wants, and not what they said, whenever we go back to that executive, they're thrilled that we came back with a solution was better than the one that they came up with. But it takes you stopping it takes you thinking, and understanding the intent, not the literal execution. And that this is a hard part because I've dealt with some very egotistical, very difficult executives over the years, some people who are incredibly talented, but that talent came at a very steep price. But the thing that I found is that and I always kind of jokingly describe this that crazy love was me. And that's so often the reason why I think that crazy loves me is the fact that it's like in hockey. In if you ever watch a hockey game, if you ever just simply even learn anything about the game, the one thing that you'll see is that you're the one of the first things you're taught is to skate to where the puck is going to be, not where the puck is. And what that means is that if I'm going to just literally take the T shirt as an execution, I'm skating to where the puck is. And the problem is, is that so often I go back to that executive, they've actually forgot that that was the literal execution that they wanted. They were just simply throwing out an idea that it was the intent, the meaning the why behind it, that's what really mattered. And that I think that's where I see so many other people fail where I've been successful is because the T shirt is getting toward the puck is understanding what they meant understanding what was they're trying to solve for, because maybe the T shirt wasn't a T shirt at all. Maybe it's the need that we actually needed a communication strategy. Maybe They felt like we needed something that would tangibly connect with our consumers. Maybe they felt like we needed a stronger messaging platform, or we needed to do it in another way. There could be 100 reasons why. But by doing that, by understanding the intent behind it, why I think that they're doing it, that skating to where the puck is going to be. So whenever I come back with that solution, that's so often why crazy loves me, is because I've anticipated I've gone to where the puck is going to be. And so in that case, then I've not only kept pace with them, but I've exceeded where they wanted to go. And like I said before, they're thrilled that we came back with a solution that was better than the one that they came up with. But this is where both agencies and client side teams need leadership. Because the thing that I see is that so often this is where agencies can't get out of their own way because they act like well, they act like agencies, where they're just simply going to do what it is that they're told and time and time. Again, I get wildly from straighted whenever you go to these teams, and you say, Well, why did you make a T shirt? And they said, well, because we got asked to make a T shirt? Did you think a T shirt was the right idea? Well, no, of course not. Why didn't you say something? Well, because Joe said, and Joe so important that we just need to do whatever Joe said, because we want to get paid. And I think that's such an insanely short sighted way of looking at things because yes, you will win on the project, you will fulfill the T shirt ask, you're going to lose the war. Because the reason why a company will pay the premium above having in house talent is because they expect above in house ideation expect something exceptional. And if all you're gonna do is just simply take orders, the same problem that in house teams, you become a commodity, if that's all you're gonna do is just do whatever it is that everybody says, I can get that way cheaper than what most agencies want to charge. And for in house teams in house teams need to fight this even more. Because in that case, with that executive, you need somebody who's gonna respect you. I'll often talk about this as being like a goddess Farther almost, I need an executive that believes in my team, I need an executive that's going to come to me to solve problems, not just simply be order takers. And so for my team to be successful for my team, to earn trust, earn respect, to shift perception, to do all the things that we've talked about before that are so incredibly critical for an in house team to be successful. Within I need these executive sponsors, I need people with power and influence to be people who believe in my team. And so for me, it becomes even more critical that I go through and I actually stop, stop the team stop whatever that is, and ask, because the end of the day, the truth is, and this is what I think most people don't want to hear, but I don't know I'm burdened with being the guy who so often says the thing that most people don't want to hear is that what needs to happen is that that agency or that internal team needs somebody with either a brain or a spine, enough not just to be the blind follower. They need somebody who respects their customers more than They respect an org chart. And that can become an incredibly difficult thing. Because it means that you're going to have to risk something, it means that you're going to have to think for yourself that you may have to separate away from the pack. Because the reality is that that just simply doing whatever that whatever Joe suggested, Tz safe, comfortable. All those things, said it before, say it again, comfort is the enemy of greatness, then this is another one of those instances. Why? Because it's a place where instead of thinking for yourself, instead of questioning what was simply told, it's just simply easier to go with the flow to go with whatever is asked, I don't have to think for myself, I don't have to risk anything. I'm just gonna float along. That's great. But if you're going to do that, don't complain about how your team doesn't get respected. Don't complain about how your team isn't getting the funding, how they're not being trusted, how they're not getting the work, how work is going other places, not to your team, because you don't get both. You don't get to be quiet in Save and bitch about why things aren't better. Because this is where leadership comes in, or in these moments. And there, it's just moments like this, where leaders are made where teams get respected. Because in the end, if you think about it, I'm still solving the problem the executive asked for, I'm still delivering a solution back to Joe. I'm just simply not being blinded by the solution that that executive throughout. And I'll tell you what, even if you're thinking, you know what, Steve, I don't want to take a risk that that's big, that's that big. The thing that I'll tell you is, then, you know, what, do this. And then this would be my recommendation, then is to take the time to understand what they need, and come up with a solution that you and the team think is right. And then at the same time, literally do whatever it is that they asked, so that I have literally to the letter of the law what it was that Joe throughout, I've made him a T shirt, but I've also taken a step back, I've looked at the need, I've looked at what's right, and that in that case, then I'm going to take that solution as well and pretty Both of them say, okay, Joe, look, this is what you asked for. This is literally what we did. But you know what we also took some time, we took some time to think we took some time to think about the customer, we talked to them, we did a little research, we did something. And here's the way that we also think and we think that's maybe what you really were asking for. Partially because also in the face of that, that is a hard thing to complain about. It's a hard thing to put down, where it's like, oh, my God, you thought about the customer, and you try to come back with a better solution. That's a really hard thing to go against. Because I think you need to do it to show the ad executive that your team is talented, but that they can come up with great solutions. But you also have to do it out of self respect for you. You have to do it to save your sanity. Because the reality is, is that you aren't going to be able to keep blindly doing bad ideas and think that you or your team are going to be okay with it. To think that people aren't going to leave that you aren't going to burn out that your soul isn't going to start to die. And this is the point whenever I talk to so many creative people that After they listen to the show for a while, they come up to me and they say the way that you talk about creativity is the way I used to think it could be. But in my job with my people, that's just that's not the way it is. And they they talk about, you know, this sort of stuff like it's a fairy tale or like it's something that's out of reach. And I think this is where you have to be realistic that yes, Look, you've got to pay your bills, yes, you need a job. But at the same point, what we get to do is incredibly special. And you have to protect that you have to look at what's going on and understand what's important, and how do you protect you and your team from that. Because by doing whatever Joe asked, but also doing what I think is the smart decision that will keep talent, it will keep your sanity. It will keep teams together while you try to break that loop. And that's the thing is that, you know, you have to stop being okay with this. You have to stop being quiet. You have to try to break through this. And the reality is, like I said, So it just it lets you know what you're dealing with. Because if that loop can't be broken, if the cycle can't be broken, then you need to leave so that you aren't broken. Because there are those executives, there are those people I have worked with them. When I was on the agency side, I've worked with them whenever I'm on the client side, who they do literally, whatever it is, they said, they want everyone to just simply execute on their vision. It is fascist it is boring. There it is week. By week, I mean that it is weak because of the fact that it is just simply one person's perspective. And the best work the best creativity, the best, most influential stuff comes from the power of a group. It comes from multiple opinions. It comes from dissenting opinions, agreeing opinions, people who are working through this stuff, that that's where it comes from. And if you're in one of those cases where you just say, you know, look, the person that I'm working with the Joe who is at my company, they aren't one of these people who are going to be able to be reasoned with. They aren't somebody who's going to be able to go back to And do this and it's going to work, they're going to get pissed that we didn't just blindly do what they said. And like I said before, if that's the case, understand the devil you have understand what that means. And understand that if you want to break out of that, if you want creativity to be more than this thing that seems to be just some kind of vaguely out of your reach, then you need to do something about it. So that's the most common place that I see it. And I see this time and time again, where so often, whenever I come into organizations, I try to free agencies of this block, I try to get them empowered, because people have the passion, they have the opinions, they just need the voice. They need somebody to stand up and ask why. And to be brave enough to be able to go out and have the plan to try to figure out how do you break out of that loop. Now the second place that will often find executive interference can be equally damaging, but in many cases is a little bit harder to see. It's probably a little bit harder to fight and it's a little bit harder to resolve And the place where this happens comes most often in your company's process. Now, here again, there's usually an executive who is in charge of this process, they dictate how the teams and the different departments should work. It's usually communicated through I don't know what some sort of, like massive, you know, 10s if not hundreds of pages that are in PDFs or they're in online courses or process charts that are just simply impossible to read, because they look like some insane mousetrap, you know, I chart. But the problem is with this is that here again, we have an executive who isn't being as obvious as saying, Okay, this isn't Joe in the T shirt. But again, we have an executive who's putting something in place that can cause a serious hindrance and a serious problem to our team's ability to be creative. And what that is the time and time again, that executive who's in charge of that process, who is dictating how the teams need to come together, the problem with them the vast majority of the time Is that they are so far removed from what is actually going on that they have no idea if the process is actually working. And because of this, this means that creative teams really suffer. And I've been in meetings with these people, these executives these, quote, unquote, process experts. And the problem with them is that what you'll find out is that they will go through in a meeting very convincingly, laying out the process, lots of charts, lots of hours, lots of what we're doing for training and all sorts of different things like that. But if you then go to actually talk to the people who are on the ground, the ones who are actually doing the work, this comical thing, the sad thing, the frustrating thing that you're going to find is that those people will tell you that, Oh, yes, what that person talks about is actually a year and a half out of date, or that this particular part doesn't work at all, and we just simply ignore it. Again, it makes a great executive slide. It makes a great, you know, PowerPoint presentation, but it doesn't actually work. And the reason why the creative teams then suffer is because this sort of process Management, this sort of executive lead, thinking or structure, what usually leads to things that are like tech led organizations or client opinion dominated organizations or other things like that. We're just one particular group who has the loudest voice, who then will step up and try to take control of things. That is hardly ever the creative team. But you know, in every case, it almost often, like I said, it isn't a creative lead process, or at the very least, and I think, ideally, what you want is it isn't a process where all teams have an equal say, usually one is dominant. And I'm not saying that this has to be a creative lead or creative dominated process. But what I am saying is that if someone else is controlling and influencing what your team needs to be successful, then here again, we have to stop. And we have to ask why things are happening the way that they are. You have to really look at what is your team need, and how do I define it? What do they need to be successful? Because this is the real challenge, is it because creative doesn't happen in a vacuum design doesn't happen in a vacuum. This is where I tend to get very vocal. Whenever people talk about, oh, it's a design problem, or Oh, it's a creative thing, or it's not because nothing that any of our teams do exist in a vacuum. They're dependent on other parts of the company. It could be marketing, it could be tech, it could be, you know, process or strategy, or it could be 100 other things. But nothing is ever something where we're just simply designing something in a vacuum. So this is the problem is that the interactions that we have with these other teams, the way that the process and their process is done, that affects us, is something that we have to be aware of. And the thing is, is that you have to communicate, you have to educate your organization on what you need to be successful. So here again, asking why going back having a conversation with whoever that executive Who's in charge of the process to define and to show them why something is working or why something isn't working with tangible examples is critical here. Because here again, I need to be able to go back and underline and show Okay, well, here's what you asked us to do. Here's what it got us. Here's what we should have done. Here's what it got us. And most of the time, this doesn't necessarily come out in better looking creative, but it may come out in smaller budgets, it may come out in smaller timelines, it may come out in smaller teams, and a lot of other ways and things that are going to matter to the business. And I know, I know, for the vast majority of people, the least sexy thing in the world is process. I get it, I trust me, I get it. But it's so often one of those things that really defines if your team is going to be able to be successful, it defines if you're going to be able to do your work because like I said it doesn't exist in a bubble. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. That is the teamwork between all these other organizations. That makes the difference that so often whenever you see the breakdowns, you see the frustrations You see, because, again, I've said this before the work is the truth, I can look at the work of a team and know if their processes screwed up or not. I can tell you, if it's a tech dominated organization, I can tell you if the product team is not working with everybody else. So they don't in some cases, they may not even know their job at all. But that's the problem is that these are different inputs into our process. And so that as the leadership as a team member, it is up to us to be the people that define what we need to be successful. And again, like I said, this doesn't mean you become a diva. This doesn't mean that you blow everybody else off. It doesn't mean that you become combative or divisive. Whenever you don't get your way all the time. That's not the way the world works. And I think in a lot of cases, that's where creatives get very bad names is when we get overly precious about some of these things. But what it does mean is that I have to find a compromise I have to find a way forward. I have to find some way of getting these things right, I have to put my team bottom line in a position where they can succeed. They can do great work, they can do impactful work. And here again, I'm not simply going to go with the status quo, where I'm simply just going to take whatever the process is, however screwed up. It is, however much it puts me as internal design team or me as agency in a bad position. Because here again, I see too many agencies, I see too many internal teams, we will go to them and say, Why did you take on whatever it is 100 points in a particular sprint? Why did you take on an impossible deadline? Why did you and they'll kind of go either one, it's what the process said, or two, it's just what we were simply told to do. And this is the thing, protect your success, protect what you need to do great work, because other people aren't going to do it. It's just human nature. It may not even be that they're doing it to be malicious or that they're doing it because they really are trying to harm you, but what they're going to do is They're going to protect their own. And they're going to give in to fear and comfort and all these other things. Because so often change is hard. I've got to risk something maybe pisses off my boss maybe pisses off a different team. But this is the thing. Don't be afraid of these executives. Take the time to understand what they mean. And don't just be blinded by what it is that they say. Because they're people. They're human. They're flawed. Yes, they may have bigger offices. Yes, they may drive nicer cars. Yes, they may wear nicer clothes. They're still people. And they're people that you can talk to their people you can reason with, because the thing that I found is that most often the executives who in my career experience have been the most feared and been the most demonized have been the ones that everybody's like, Oh, so and so said, so we better just do it. They're honestly the people who in the end, most of the time actually you know what it was I think about it all the time for me, have been the ones who turned out to be my biggest supporter because nobody ever stood up to them. Nobody ever went back and had a conversation with them. Nobody ever proposed anything else. And they were stewing in this frustration about why couldn't they get better work out of their team. Because again, it just because you're in a leadership position doesn't mean you're some rock star leader doesn't mean you're some big visionary. But there obviously, are some skills that they have that put them into that position. And that's fine. Not everybody who's in these spots has to be everything to everybody. That's perfectly understandable. But what I can do is to be an ally, to be somebody who can try to help them to go in and to try to say, Okay, look, help me understand what you meant. Help me understand what you're looking for. Here's some ideas and again, maybe even think about how do you bring them into the process? How do I let them be a part of this? How do I build that trust and build that confidence? Because at the end of the day, we've talked about this in other episodes, but that's the real kind of moral of the story here. Is that in both These cases, what I want to do to empower My team is that I want to build trust and confidence in our work. Because that's the real product for us is that if we want great work to out the door, if we want us to be able to do the crazy ideas that we have, these executives have to trust us, they have to have confidence in the fact that as I was describing myself, I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid, incredibly key differentiator there. But that's really what it is that I'm looking for is I'm looking for them to say, you know what, I don't have the answer, and that's okay. Or I have some suggestions, and the team is going to hear it as just that. And then we can work on it together. They may go away and come back. They understand what it is that I'm going for, but I trust that they're going to think through it. Because that's the thing is those really tough people become your best advocates because of the fact that they know they can trust you. Because you're going to speak up you're going to be the person that has the difficult conversation you're going to say the thing that nobody else has Does, everybody else is thinking it, but nobody's actually gonna say it out loud. And there is insane, insane power in that, especially coming from the creative team where at the end of the day, you are there to bring creativity to this company. And that is an insanely powerful thing. And that so often as you want to position your team, your creative team as a critical asset inside of your company, it is a staggeringly smart thing to do, to make allies and to get the support the trust and the confidence of these people. Don't be the person who sits there mute Don't be the person that takes the easy route. And just goes with whatever it is that gets said. Because there is the opportunity to bring a change and if there's not opportunity to bring a change, well then dammit, there's an opportunity for you to change for you to find find someplace where you are supported. find someplace where you can do great work and then because at the end of the day, that person who just wants to blindly boss you around who wants to tell you what it is To do and doesn't want your input, they're going to fail. Yeah, the time time will be the truest test of them, that they're not going to be able to withstand it, they're not going to be able to work that way the turnover is going to be too high, the toll at the end will be too high. And don't be a victim of that. You deserve better your talent deserves better than to be this person that is constantly pushed around, bullied around and interfered with by these executives. Because like I said, so often, just give them a chance, have a conversation with them, no matter how difficult it may be, because more than not, I promise you, you're going to find people who become some of your biggest fans and your biggest supporters. So hopefully, you once again enjoyed the show. If you did take a few seconds, a few seconds, that's all masking for head over to iTunes, hover over to your favorite podcasting platform and leave a review makes a huge difference. One to me is obviously I'm doing this in my spare time I have a day job and a few other things going on incredibly motivating, but also it brings more people to the show and I think that's the point of doing all this Be able to reach people at scale be able to get that message out there. As always you can find more about this podcast you can find related articles and you can find all the show notes once again I've done a lot of work to really beef up the show notes, head over to podcast Stephen Gates comm click on episodes this one will be right at the top of the list unless you're hearing this later than Where the hell have you been scroll down and find it Episode 37 and as always, if there's something you want me to talk more about, if you have any questions about anything, head over to Facebook, type in The Crazy One podcast give that page like ask any questions I'm really good as quickly as I can get back answer any of those the best of them I try to roll up into the listener show into the listener questions show. The best of those I try to roll up into listener questions shows that I do on a regular basis. But I want to be able to have everybody have this conversation out in the open so that everybody gets the benefit of it. As always the boys only want me to remind you that all of us here are my own. They do not represent those of my current or former employers. They Are all adjust my thoughts. And finally I say it every time because I made it every time but thank you for your time. I know that time is truly one of the few genuine luxuries that we have. And I'm always incredibly humbled that you won't spend any of it. Listen to my crazy ass. So, until next time, and as always fight against complacency. Comfort is the enemy of greatness. And dammit stay crazy