Ep 30 In-house design: How to fix broken and dysfunctional in-house creative teams

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates explores the paradox of today’s business landscape: while companies crave creativity more than ever, many internal creative teams lack the empowerment and support they need to thrive. Drawing from his extensive experience, Stephen shares actionable insights on how to effectively position, empower, and revitalize in-house teams to meet this growing demand for creativity. Tune in to discover strategies that can transform your creative department into a powerhouse of innovation and success!

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Stephen Gates : 0:00

What's going on everybody, and welcome into the 30th episode of The Crazy One podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design, and a whole host of other things that matter to creative people. Now today, I want to spend some time talking about what is probably the topic that I get asked about a lot. If it isn't right up there at the top, it's really damn close. And that is I get a lot of emails I get a lot of people come in and want to talk to me about how do they fix their broken client side teams. And by broken I mean, these are teams that may be ineffective, disrespected, deflated, overlooked or underutilized. The challenge that we have right now is that I think that this is a far more common problem than people want to admit. And you've heard me talk before about I really feel like we're in a time where creatives have the opportunity to affect companies and to affect business like we haven't seen, honestly since the Industrial Revolution. But the challenge with that is, is that most of the teams that are in the positions to affect that change Well, they lack the leadership, they like the vision, they like the structure to actually be able to cause and effect that change. This is why I think we're blowing it is because there are so many of these teams that are there with companies that recognize that they need this help, that they know that they need this leadership, but they just can't figure out how to get it done. And so time after time, we get people who come up to me and they say, How can I fix my team? How can I fix my company? And that's why I said, I think it's, I understand why for not only because of the fact that you just don't know where to start. And once you do know where to start. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of hard work. And it's a lot of cases probably pretty thankless. But the good news is, is that it's thankless until it starts to work. And then it's amazing. So that's what we're talking about today is I want to teach you some of the things that I've learned some of the most important lessons that I found out the hard way over the past decade of my career. I've looked to take the internal creative teams and turn them around at companies like Starwood and city, and help advise other ones of just what are some of these problems that I see. And so we're going to break this up into seven different things. I know seven sounds like a lot, but we're going to move through them pretty quickly. And those seven things are going to be as a leader, as somebody who wants to affect that change. How do you just get your head right? How do you understand what the challenges that's really in front of you? How do you understand that one of the biggest things you're going to need to do is to change the perception of your team of the people that are already there, of looking at what really matters to you what matters to the company, and looking at kind of how are you going to deliver what is going to matter to them? I think we're going to go through and we're going to actually define what is success. We're going to talk about that for most creatives, you need to learn how to speak to the business in a way that they understand the importance of doing something that should be very obvious, but investing in the people on your team. And finally then investing in the strategic relation ships that are really going to matter as you go through this process. But let's put an asterisk up on the front of this. And I've done this on a few different things. We talked about leadership, we talked about creativity. But let's do it here again, that there aren't going to be any magic bullets here. I just want to say that again, one more time, because we're talking about something that has a size and a complexity that's not going to lend itself to a one size fits all solution. This episode is going to be a guide, it's going to be a starter kit. But the work is going to come for you to figure out how are you going to apply it to your company, to your clients and to your team, because everything that I say here isn't gonna work for everybody, because every company is different. The personalities are different, the support is different, the strategy needs to be different. So I've tried to pull out what I feel like are the most common things, but it's gonna be up to you to figure out how do you apply them, and how do you make them successful. So let's jump in and start talking about just getting your head on right because changing an in house I think it's a lot like becoming a leader. It's a lot like becoming a creative. It doesn't happen all at once. This is going to be a process. If you want to make this change, if you want to try and figure out how am I going to turn my team around? How am I going to get my company to think differently, this is gonna be a process, that's going to take time. And it's going to take persistence. And it's not going to be easy. If you think this is something that's just going to go on for a week or two, and that whenever you do that, people are going to go, Wow, this is great, this is fantastic. You're going to quickly find out how difficult this can be. Because it's hard. It's really hard. And your determination to do this is going to have to be stronger than the frustration that lies ahead of you. And the excuses that you're going to get from everyone. You're going to get the excuses from your company, you're going to get it from your clients, you're going to get it from your team. And so a lot of this is going to fall back on you. But the other thing I would encourage you to do is to not just To be determined, but not let people off that easily. That for me, one of the things that I've always believed in is that everybody needs to be committed to going on this journey together. And that as you go on this journey, there's going to be several places where there's going to be a fork in the road. And whenever you hit those moments, you and your team are going to have a choice. Because in general, if you want to affect change, one of two things goes on. Either you get busy making that change, you commit to it, you find ways of getting through and you find ways of making a difference. Or you find ways of making excuses for why it's not happening. And the excuses are going to be a lot easier. The excuses are going to be readily at hand, there's gonna be a ton of things, they're going to point in the direction of why this is going to be hard. And I think a lot of this then is going to fall back on you, the leader, the person who decides that they want to make change, who may also may not necessarily be in charge of that group to keep your head on And keep working for change. Because I think that's the thing is that don't get me wrong. This doesn't just have to come from people that are in leadership position. In a lot of cases, I found actually, if you want to transform an organization, it may come from leadership in the creative team or the design team. But in many cases, I think the most senior leadership will acknowledge the need for it, they'll acknowledge the want to change. What they lack is the ability or the understanding of how to get better ideas to go out the door. And that's a real challenge. It's a real challenge to kind of understand how do we do this sort of thing. But here's the part of it. If you're somebody leads a creative team, you have more power, you have more ability to affect that change. But if you're somebody who wants to affect this and your boss or your leadership doesn't see it, then this can be done too. It's just needs to be done a bit more like a grassroots organization. But the other thing I think you have to look at as you go through this process, because I get a lot of people who come up and ask me about this stuff. And sometimes the answer that I have to give is an easy. Sometimes the answer is if you don't find more people like you, if you can't start a grassroots movement, if you can't find executive buy in, if you can't find people that want to bring about this change, then I think you need to honestly figure out are you fighting a futile battle? Is it time to move on to somewhere else that does value those things. Because there are some companies there are a lot of companies actually who aren't willing to change. I saw this firsthand, not long ago, whenever I was in between my jobs at Starwood in at Citi, I interviewed with a lot of really big brands, I interviewed with a lot of CEOs. Not going to name any of them here. But these are all brands that you absolutely would have heard of. And the challenge is whenever you get up to talking about them, you realize that everybody's all about change, about innovation. They're all about all the sorts of things and these sorts of demands that they want to make and put on this kind of creative culture. What they lack is the I guess they like the spine to carry things With their words, because they're all about changing innovation right up until the moment where it means they have to do something different, then all of a sudden, all that boldness doesn't quite Hold up. But that's the point where you have to determine Is this something I can come in where I can make a difference where I can lead? Or I can push them into this thinking? Or is it just simply too antiquated and it's not going to work? Let's say you feel like you have that opportunity. You've either just joined that team, or you're on that team where you feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And that may not necessarily be a truck. But it may be the ability to make a difference. So I think that you know, a big part of when we talk about client side teams, we talk about client side creative teams. A big part of what you're going to need to do is to change perception of that team. And here's the thing I'm going to tell you I've never bought into the idea that internal creative teams are second class thinkers. I think it's bullshit. I think it's a bunch of people who can easily commoditize internal teams, I think it's a bunch of internal teams, who instead of standing up and kind of pushing back and defining what it is they need to be Successful, just simply find it easier to play the victim and kind of say, Oh, no, what was us? So I don't speak at many, I actually have only spoken at one client side creative conference, because I just I don't like this poor me attitude. I don't buy into it. I don't believe in it. And so I think that it's one of these things where we've got to figure out how do we change this, we've got to figure out how do we make a difference with this stuff. The problem that we are going to deal with the problem why we have to change perception is that most companies look at internal teams that they're not as good or as creative. They're not as smart as as agencies. And I get why people think that I just don't agree with it. I think that they think that because they think, oh, they're gonna come in from the outside, they're gonna bring fresher thinking they're gonna have the ability to kind of look at these problems in a brand new way. I just think if you do that, that it's one of these things where you just you're selling anybody who works you short to think that just because I work at a company, I don't have the ability to see the forest for the trees. As an inverse. I'd actually say I'd even take the stuff Further, because for me, the belief that I've always had is that by running an internal creative team, we sit close to the brand, and closer to the problems that that brand has than anyone. So we should, and we damn well better beat those agencies all week long and twice on Sunday. Because we're closer to the decision makers, we're closer to the brand where you've lost that seven degrees of separation. And now we're down to just one or two. So we have to embrace that challenge. We have to embrace what that means. And I think a huge part of your battle, a huge part of fixing your team will be can you change that perception that you're not, it's not as smart, that may be not as good. And so how do you do that? How do you change that perception? And as with most things, as with most brands, I think if you don't have a clear idea of kind of who you are, as a team, as a leader, as a group, nobody else is going to buy into it either. And here again, I think this is very foundational, but it's just something as I see, as I travel around as I talk to these leaders at these major companies, I just don't see this stuff. There. When you talk to that sort of leadership, the things that I ask is What is your team look like? What do they sound like? What do they stand for? Because I think that's the thing if you can start to define what that team is, what does their swagger come from? Where does their differentiation come from? That's the foundation. And that's the direction for how you change that perception. It's this is the same thing as shifting brand perception in any other creative entity. It's not that different. But so knowing that that's really the challenge is to get people to look at the team differently. Because if I can change that perception, what happens is opportunity happens, money happens, headcount happens, because now all of a sudden, I'm looked at as being a much more critical resource than I ever was in the past. Let's actually dig into that point a little bit more. Because I think that a big part of what feeds that perception that feeds the group being overlooked. really comes down to what is that brand value? What is it really known for. And I think in most cases, I've seen that it comes down to the group delivers one of two things. You've heard me talk about this before, if you listen to the show, so for this little bit lip sync along, as you've heard it, you'll hear it again. But what it comes down to is deliverables versus ideas. Because one of the biggest ways to change perception is to focus on the value that you and your group give to the organization. Here again, what do you want to be known for? If you just had to walk up to somebody in your company and say, hey, my creative team, my design team, my whatever it is, you call yourselves? What do you really think? What are we known for? And if the answer to that question that you find is that, you know, look, you guys are really great at coming through, you can hit a deadline, you get the files where they need to be, you can really execute. That means that your team is a commodity, and it's why you're not getting respect because you're looked at as As a service organization, that's one of the biggest things that I'll tell a lot of companies to do is if you are a person who is in a creative service organization, a design service, organization of services in that title of services in the philosophy of it, welcome to the foundation of your problem, because kinkos is a service organization who is calling kinkos to come change their company. And that's the problem. Because the value, the perception shifts with your idea, and your ability to convey the fact that ideas are really what it is that we're about. Because ideas have value ideas, change companies, ideas are the things that all of a sudden everybody wants to rally around, because that's really where the change happens. That's where the differentiation happens. And way too many way too many teams fall into that first category. And as a result, you become what you are You become a product of that service group mentality. All you do is deliver on what's asked. And you just continue the cycle that makes you a commodity. So I said before, commodities are the things that are overlooked, they're undervalued, they're replaced, they're laid off, they're minimized. And they're the ones that whenever important projects come up, sit on the sidelines, that works goes to an agency. So that's why you have to make that shift. Because here again, if whenever we go back to what I said before, agencies are brought in because they can bring fresh thinking they can bring a fresh approach to a problem. Yes, they can bring design, but it's the thinking. That's why people want to go to them. So you've got to move your group from focusing on that deliverable. If that's all you are, like I said, you're not gonna have that value. How do you start having better ideas? And how do you start changing the way that you work? Because with these first two, like I said, is we've just simply identified the problem because I want you to be able to look at this and I want you to be able to Look in the mirror and say, where do we fall? Is my head on? Right? What is the perception of our group? What is the deliverable that we're doing? And I think if you can't look at yourself and be honest about that, that's going to be something that obviously is going to inhibit you. But this is the foundational stuff is you have to understand, just like any creative process, what is the problem that we are solving for? How do you start to change? You understand where you are? Maybe your group is a commodity, you don't have that sort of direction clearly defined? How do you do? And the easiest way that I know how to say this, is that as a team, you have to know what you need to be successful? Because the first big step in going from deliverables to ideas is defining and socializing. What you need to be successful. I just said it twice. Because it's important, incredibly simple, but important, because here's the thing that I find as I go in and I talk to these teams who are saying, look, we're being minimized, we're being overlooked. We need to change. I'll say, Great. Tell me, what do you need to be successful? Tell me, what is the process that you have socialized with the organization. So you can be sure that you get what you need to be successful. And I get a lot of blank stares. And I'll say, okay, can someone tell me have you defined? What do you need to be successful? to do your best work? How much time do you need? How much money do you need? How much budget do you need? How many heads do you need? What kind of creative brief Do you need, on and on? Again, blank stares. So I never really can quite wrap my head around the fact that whenever a team doesn't understand what it needs to be successful, doesn't, hasn't told the people that it's working with what it needs and what the process is going to be like. Well, then, of course, the outcome is going to be that you're not going to be successful. Bad input, bad output. It's a simple equation. So we're really gonna break this down into two parts. Like I said, if you're just listening, there are two parts to what I just said. about defining What you need to be successful? The first part is a internal creative methodology. And that really means how do we have ideas? How do the teams work? And because I think once you define that, then you can define an external process, what are the inputs that we need into this process that will then allow us to utilize our creative methodology to be successful? It's a symbiotic relationship. So let's start with the internal methodology. Because that internal methodology is going to be how you're going to work, and how you're going to set the expectations for the team and for the quality of that work. Because here, again, we've talked about everybody's creative process is different. Okay. But that needs to be freedom in a framework, it needs to sit in a certain way of working. And the really important thing is that creative can no longer just be viewed as a department. Your methodology needs to be inclusive of everyone. So let's dissect what I just said. So I'm sure that you're clear about it by saying that creative can no longer be a department, it's because I also see too many of these internal teams, whether it's because they feel like you know, they become a commodity, and they're overlooked, whether they get overly precious about the creative process, and they overreact by kind of turtling up and and clamming up and not letting anybody into their process. But the problem is, if you want to affect change, you can't have that sort of Bunker mentality. You have to include more people, you have to bring them along. Because a big part of actually what your team is delivering is creativity. And we're going to talk about that more in just a second. But the methodology has to be inclusive of everyone. This is why I use design thinking, because it gives form and shape to the creative process. It brings everybody to the table. And I've talked before about whenever you bring everybody to the table, well then all of a sudden I have this great Trojan horse this great sneak attack for change. When everybody's at the table. I'm now tapping into the basic human psychology people are going to support what they're a part of. Right? Nobody wants to jump off a moving train. So that train is rolling and they're on it, they want to stay with it. Because the problem that I found is that too many times the team has that bunker down mentality. They don't include legal they don't include, you know, the clients, they don't include a lot of these other things. And then when I don't really get why, all of a sudden, now misunderstood, I'm overlooked and undervalued. So it has to be inclusive, you have to bring everybody to the table because you have to affect that type of change. The challenge here is going to be with this is that for design thinking, the biggest challenge for design thinking is the word design. Because most people don't feel like they're designers, they will feel like they're creative. That is the key to all of this. The product of your team, the thing that's going to bring the change, the thing that's going to make the difference is creativity, not design. And let me explain what I mean when I say that because I've said that and other times sometimes that gets tweeted or other things and I think it gets Slightly misunderstood. Because what I mean is that design is a byproduct of creativity. Creativity is your stocking trade, because creativity is the thinking that gets put into solving a problem. So if I'm the shepherd of creativity, if I'm the Sherpa of creativity at a company, well, then that's an inclusive process. That's the thing where I can bring anybody into that it's skills that I can teach, it's tools that I can give, that can affect every single department. Well, what I've done by doing that, yes, I've kept some moniker of control some moniker of guidance over the creative direction at the company. But here again, I've dimensionalize my group beyond the Z, just a simple the execution, because I made it about a methodology, a movement, a way of thinking, and that if I can bring everybody into that, especially the company that's hungry for change, that type of inclusiveness, that type of teaching is an insanely powerful tool. But that's why I say that creativity is the thing that's going to give separation. Design is a byproduct. Design is a byproduct because great design is a visual expression of great thinking. So if that's the case, the design here, again, is the execution on the thinking, the thinking is the differentiator. The creativity is the differentiator. That's why for me, it was about coming in and teaching design thinking no matter where it is that I've been, it's about coming in and knowing that the responsibility is bigger than just design. Because if that's all it is that you're looking to fix, you're gonna fail. And time and time again, I have people that constantly say, well, Steve, you know, the website looks so much better. Or Steve, we're working on a atomic design system, or Steve, we read on the branding. Great, it's great that you did all that stuff. But understand that by doing that stuff without changing the thinking, without changing the company structure without, you know, making your group bigger than that, you're not going to have the impact that you want. You're still gonna be overlooked, you're still going to be minimized, you're still all those other things are going to go on even if you're doing better design work, because this Time is the byproduct design is the execution of creativity. But I think that you also have to make changes in other ways. And again, a lot of this goes back to the no magic bullet thing. So let's think about this. Let's think about what are some of the other ways that you could do this because again, we as we talked about creativity, we talked about design, these are very broad, very big topics, lacking intangibles and executions. I know that can be difficult and frustrating. So let's, let's talk about a few tangible ways that you can do that. Because if I want to change my internal process by internal methodology, a lot of that is also looking at what are we doing, where we may be undercutting ourselves where we may not be supporting creativity, we still have that service mentality. mindset. Like one of the things that I found at Citi was whenever I went in, I started working with those teams, I sat down to really start to look at the process. And one of the things that I was very surprised by was that at the end of the creative process, they would go through, they'd work with the product owner, they'd go through all of that work in the end. What they had been doing is they would present a simple idea. They would say, Okay, here's Here it is. Well, the problem with that, if you think about it is the fact that well, now we're making the conversation very black or white, good or bad. It's not about our thinking, because we're only showing one solution. So it's not about creativity. It's about execution. And we're not really having a conversation, we're having more of just a charette or a design critique. So one of the simple changes that we made that had a profound impact was looking at this and saying, Okay, look, instead of just presenting one idea from now on, we're presenting three, I didn't want to present three, just because I had the some strange need further to do more work. What I wanted to do is I wanted to create a construct that allowed us to have a conversation with our clients, I wanted to create a construct that allowed us to show off the thinking of the team, because that's the well I guess, it's the decently unspoken part of all this is that if you're going to do all this change, you're going to do all this work and the work actually doesn't get any better. Well, then again, you're not Going to find success. Just that simple change of saying, Okay, look, we're gonna go in with three ideas, we're going to explain what the three of them are going to explain what the thinking was, we're gonna explain the options behind them, the pros and the cons. And we're gonna go in and start to dimensionalize out what it is that we're doing. That simple change, that simple glitch in the process, led to a massive perception shift, because now we weren't a service organization anymore. Now we were people that were thinking. And the great part about this is that the exact same people who were viewed as commodities, the exact same people that people wanted to bring agencies in to replace now all of a sudden, were these really smart creatives who are doing this amazing work. Nobody got any smarter, nobody got any better. Nobody got any faster. But it was just looking at the process and the methodology that we were using that made the difference. And I think a lot of times this can feel counterintuitive. It can feel boring, because for me, you know, I think so people always look me a little bit strangely whenever I kind of say Look, that's one of the first things I concentrate on when I think on how to shift perception is I look at process, the incredibly unsexy, the incredibly bland and boring thing a process. But that's the thing is that here again, the process that we use, the way that we go through this stuff can make a huge difference. So look at those things. Look at the process that your team is using, what are the things that you're doing that are undercutting the image that you want to build the thing that you want to go towards? And it can be, like I said, as simple as presenting one idea instead of three. And then by making a simple change like that, all of a sudden, it makes a huge amount of difference. Well, so then the inverse of that, once you figure out, what do you need to be successful? What are the things as you go through that process? Because if you have something like design thinking, you can easily say, Okay, look, I need this amount of research I need these sort of things can help me build empathy with the customer. I need a clear problem statement I need How might we statements that I can brainstorm around, there's a very clear way for me to define what it is that I need to be successful. And whether you use design thinking or use something else. That's Really what this internal process is meant to do is really to look at this and say, okay, when we do great work when we do our best work, these are the inputs that we need the time we need the people, we need the things that we need. So that's really the internal part of it. So once you've got that defined, understood, mapped out, then it's moving on to how do you externalize that? Because the external process really defines how are you going to work with your clients? Because you need to define an end to end process of how you're going to work and the things that they can expect from a timing perspective from a deliverables perspective. But here again, if I know that I need these certain inputs, what are the artifacts that I then create in the external process that makes sure that I get those? The creative brief, the timing, the number of reviews, the tech delivery standards on and on like, right? There's a whole host of those things, but where I'm sure that what's coming in and what's going out, is consistent, because that's the part of this What's important is that I'm consistently setting my team up to be in the best position they can to succeed. And oftentimes, this can be difficult. Sometimes it forces you to push back on different people. But the reason why it's so incredibly important is because you have to be in charge of your team succeeding, you have to set them up to succeed, not just simply take whatever comes in, take whatever you get, and that some product owners may be better than others. And that you just simply take that the reality is, nobody's gonna remember why something wasn't right. They don't remember that you didn't get what it is that you needed. They definitely don't remember it if you didn't tell them that. But this is the part where you have to be willing to push back and to defend a lot of different things. So you're sure that your team is consistently put in the place to succeed. Because for some people, it's annoying. It's time consuming. They don't understand it. They don't need understand why they need to give you this stuff. You're creative. Why can't you just start drawing something? Maybe they say it out loud, maybe it's in their head. You've all just thought of a client though. Whenever I said that who you think really kind of adheres to that description. But this is the thing, set yourself up to succeed it is what an external process is for is it is sure that you get the things that you need when you need it to be successful. Because if you are unwilling to do that the quality of your work will waver wildly. Depending on what you get, you have to take that inconsistency out of this structure. And you have to make it so that your team like I said, is set up to be as successful as they can as consistently as they can. You know, you just you've got to tell your clients this stuff, you got to tell them what to expect. Here again, let's talk about one of these things that made a huge difference. But it was a really simple change to make. And that really was just that for me. Whenever again, I went into city, it was seeing that in many cases, okay, I had a team that was delivering one idea. Well, so as a result, we have then created the problem that was sitting within the the product organization Because the product organization will look at us and go, look, they're only showing up with one idea. We don't feel like they're being terribly creative. So we're going to show up with solutions that that are going to help supplement this, we're gonna help supplement the thinking, when the creative team wanted to sit around kind of complain about how many people did this. My point was, it was, quite frankly, a monster of their own making. Because since we weren't sharing since we weren't having a conversation, since we weren't showing how we were thinking they needed that they wanted it and they were compensating for it. And so wouldn't you know, whenever all of a sudden, we started showing up with three ideas, when we started using design thinking that included the product owners and everybody else in the journey to that thinking, well, then all of a sudden, you know, those ideas of hey, here's the solution, just go color it in stopped. But it was recognizing that a huge problem that we were up against was that people are showing up with a solution to be vetted, not a problem to be solved. So here again, we weren't setting ourselves up in a way to be successful to show off our talent. That was a huge problem. So the next part of it is once you start to get those foundational in place, it starts to become a little bit about a few more of the softer skills and a bit more, again about finessing the communication and finessing some of the relationships that you have. I think that one of the first and biggest things that you need to do one of the first and biggest things you need to think about is do you as a creative person, as a creative organization. Do you know how to speak business? Because what I found is that most creatives don't know how to communicate what they want to do in a way that a business person can see value in business people won't see value in something just like design. It may be pretty, they may admit that it looks better, but they don't see value in it the same way that we do. So you have to be able to talk to them in a terms and in a way that they'll understand. Here again, let me give you some tangible examples about what I mean by this. That if you want to decrease your eight year dependency on agencies, then you have to break the numbers down to show the business. Why are they They're more expensive per head than your internal team, you have to show them the value of the work that you're putting out. You have to show them value. Sometimes the numbers, like I said about a per headcount cost, sometimes in other ways to be able to kind of say, Okay, look that you know, the value of a centralized design organization is going to be less rework fewer agencies fewer, where again, I can monetize the value of my team in very tangible ways, besides the fact that it's just going to look prettier. Because that's the challenge is that for most design leaders, that's what I see is they go to them and go, look, but it looks better. That's not a design value. This is why in so many cases, whenever I'm asked by young designers, what are the things they should learn they have the basics of their skill set of their tool set down, what should be next, consistently tell them to go learn business? Because here again, if you want to take advantage of the opportunities that are laid out in front of us, then you have to be able to speak in terms and communicate in ways that people who are not designers will understand. And it's a real challenge. Let's talk about it. Another one, this was a recent example I gave to someone that if you want to use an atomic design system, then what you need to do is to not just show them how there's going to be visual consistency, because again, they're not going to see value in that. But what I can do is I can tell them that, yes, there's going to be a development cycle, we're going to have to get this system started. But what it's going to do then is is going to lower our design time because each individual design team, each individual agency is not going to be recreating these elements, it's going to lower development time, because we're going to work with a tech organization. And by doing that, we're going to have these reusable components that we can pull off the shelf time after time, and allows us to be more nimble and be more reactive that all of a sudden, we can take on things like you know, ADA compliance and responsive design and a whole bunch of other things at scale. And that here the tangible numbers of what it is that we're expecting of where creative design time will drop of where development design time will drop that we as an organization will get faster and leaner and more efficient and make more money because of the fact that we have an atomic design system that is a world of difference than saying stuff is going to look better. So I think that these are the sort of things that you have to think about is how do I pitch what I want to do in these sort of ways. Because this is the fact right, all of your major changes are going to have to be translated like this. And you have to do it in the beginning before you do it. So the business can see more tangible value, then, like I said, things are just gonna look better. And it's a challenge, it's hard to be able to figure out how to do this. So if you don't know how to do this, if you're creative, who is sitting there going crap, I don't know anything about business, I will guarantee you that you are probably surrounded by a lot of people who do. So if it's one of those things, find somebody who's a sympathetic ear, find somebody who can teach you about business, go and be around these people and look at the things that you think are gonna matter to them. Money is always a big one. Time is always a big one. So again, even if you start in that and just look at what it is you want to do, and say, Okay, how am I either gonna save time or save money? That's a good start. But you've got to get smarter about this. You've got to teach yourself how to do this skill. Because here again, if all you want to do is just say, well look at this, look how much better it looks before and after. It's an intangible. And it's also an intangible that often requires you to then wait to launch a particular product. And only in the hindsight, can you then prove how something did better a site perform better customers were happier. But at that point, you know, either one, the project maybe didn't get off the ground to begin with to it got neuter down so the effect wasn't as big and I just think rarely do you see it go out in the form that you wanted it to when you weren't able to do that upfront work. So you have to think about this. But the good news is, is that over time, they'll see more value in what you do, and they start to trust you more. And that really is so much of this. Because as we get to this next section, and I want to talk about investing in strategic relationships, you have to get to know your clients. If they know what they want. You have to really kind of have Understand how do I get support? The difference here is gonna be support is born out of trust and confidence, right? If I really trust somebody, if I really have confidence in them, I'm much more willing to give them big opportunities. I'm much more willing to let them try something new. This is one of the things that I always try to just continue to focus on. Is that a leader, as a leader, I want people to look at me and I want you to know that I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid, huge, critical difference there. And a lot of the difference there comes out of trust and confidence. Because I think most people try to fake it, they go, Oh, this is my client, I'm gonna go suck up to them. I would just simply point out that I think there's a real fine line between sucking up and getting somebody to trust you right? The difference between a pain in the ass and a brown noser is basically bad depth perception. If that's the case, your product here as a leader as somebody who wants to affect change is trust and confidence because only when people trust me only to them when they have confidence and they know what it is that I'm doing, then the opportunities get better, then I don't have to prove as much, then I'm not challenged at every single step in the road. And I'm given more leeway to operate the way that I want. But you have to earn it. And it takes time. You have to be honest with them, you have to show them value. Because those are the things that build trust. You have to spend the time to be vulnerable, to be honest, to do the things that are hard that whenever you do something good, great go in to show that you did something good. Whenever something goes bad, go and own the fact that you made a mistake, but also own the fact that you have a solution for how it's going to get fixed. Because so many times the best work. The absolute best work that I've done has, of course come out of the partnership between the design team and my client. If I didn't have my client, if I didn't have their trust, the work would never have gone out the door wouldn't have seen the light of day. But you also have to have this trust and confidence because they're going Going to be bumps along the road. Trying to change an organization, especially an organization of any size is hard changing mentalities are hard, some people will want to go running back to the ways that it used to be. And you could drag them back out and force them into the new reality. And that's hard. And that it can be defeating, it can be frustrating. But if you don't have that trust, if you don't say, look, we made a mistake here, we can fix it, we can get past it. And if you only are the person that's kind of blowing smoke up somebody's ass, then you only get one or two of those bumps before they just say, look, this isn't working, we're going back to agencies. So understand the value that this has understand the impact that it can have to get where you need to go. The other part of this that again, to me seems like it should be so obvious, but it's something again, that I see time and time, again, just doesn't happen is you have to invest in and not just invest in, you have to believe in the people who are on your team. That's the most important relationship. The thing that I value the most, it's the one part of my day, the one part of my job where there isn't our hopefully there isn't any spin, there's no bullshit, there's no, we can trust each other because we know that we stand at the center of a hurricane. And as anybody who has ever knows anything about hurricane, you know that the eye of the hurricane actually is very calm. It's the place where the kind of the winds died down, it's the center of the storm. This is where I view my team is that we are the center of the storm. Because if we take one step in any direction, away from our core team, we are suddenly back out in the storm of the problems and the spin and the bullshit and the politics and the strategy and all the problems that we have to solve for. So for us, the place where we are the the group that we become, is sacred. It's important. It matters. It's personal. people invest their time, you're asking people to take a blank piece of paper and put part of their soul on it to create something so unique. I'm sure better No, that it's personal. But the thing that I would say as well is that as you look at an internal team and go, look, I don't know if I have the talent to pull it off. I don't know that I have the people to pull it off. I'll tell you that you do. Because over the past 10 years, I've taken over two teams when it started and one at Citi. And I've been able to bring about change, not insignificant change and be able to launch work, not insignificant work with the people who were there. When I got there. The leadership team that I had the day that I got it start the day I arrived at Starwood was the exact same team. The day that I left. The team that was the production group. When I got there was the team that had been in eight Apple keynotes. The day that I left, same people. The ones that have been overlooked were suddenly the heroes. Same goes for city. But the difference was that I was willing to believe in them I was willing to invest in them. I was willing to push them and not let them slide. I was willing to create a culture that helps celebrate them that gave them the tools that they needed. I put a process in place that let them you Get what they needed to be successful. But I also understood what that was for them. This is hard. Sometimes you get it wrong. Sometimes you get it wrong, it just breaks your heart. Because you just really felt like there was a person you could reach, there was somebody you could get to. You saw such great potential in them. But the fear gets to them, the uncertainty gets to them. The lack of patience gets to them, and they leave. But for the vast majority, the ones who do believe you can affect incredible change with the people that you have today. It is a coward's way out to say that the only way that I'm gonna be able to get better creative is by getting better people. Yes, you can bring in flesh, fresh blood. Yes, you can bring new perspectives. But if that is all it is you're willing to do. How the hell are you going to get a team to believe in you? They know. They know if the only people you respect the only people you give the important stuff to the new people who come in, they know you can do it. But you have to walk your talk. You have to lead by example, you should be the first one to run up the hill and show them how things are going to get done. You have to take the time to sit down and listen to them, genuinely listen to them. Listen to what it is that they need, listen to what's going right, listen to what's going wrong. Let them know that they are all a part of this process that this isn't just some big head in the sky that's dictating down what needs to get done, that they're all responsible. They're all accountable for this change. Because that's the other problem that you're going to run into is that as a leader, if you think that everything has to fall on you, 100% of the time, you're going to burn out, you're going to fail. This is something that I have had to learn the hard way repeatedly. Because it's hard to set expectations for other people, it's hard to go back out and say, Look, as an organization, this is what it is that I expect of you. And to go probably one step further and to be able to say, Okay, look, either you're going to come up to this line, and we're going to meet this and we're gonna meet this expectation or we're going to start making some changes. But I think here again, it's one of those forks in the road, where you have to decide Are you willing to be the person that's going to set that expectation that's going to share the burden that's going to make everybody accountable and not let them off the hook to just sit around and bitch about how things aren't changing, because some of them will. And it's hard, and it's frustrating, but they will. But this is the point where it's up to you to set an expectation to them to sit down, to listen to them, to work with them, to try to make things better to try to make things different. Because that's the thing, if you're just trying to do it on your own, you're not gonna get it done. You have to get them to believe you have to get them to work with you. Because that and you can feel it. I've never known how to describe it. There's not a tangible metric that I can put to it. But dammit, I know when a team is starting to work, right? You can feel people start to believe you can feel them start to work together. You can see the ideas start to get better. There's not a tangible metric I can put on it. There's not a one thing, right? Because that's the problem is that change. Like I said, just like leadership, it doesn't happen at once. It's like falling in love. There's no one thing There's no one time you can say, Oh, I know this is the moment whenever I knew that I love somebody or I knew that that person who was an acquaintance became one of my best friends. It's not one thing. It's, it's a whole series of little things that happens that leads up to that. And this is the thing with this right is it's all the little moments, all the little coaching moments, all the little supporting moments, but it's the moments where you still believe in them that make that difference. But then this goes to the next part. And I think, you know, we've talked about this when it comes to career development. We've talked about it in leadership, we'll talk about it here. It's patience. Because like I said before, none of this is gonna be easy. And the hardest part is it none of this is going to be fast. I would say if you are starting today, and you want to see say, Okay, how long until I start to see a real difference, a tangible difference in the work. I tell you a year minimum, minimum, and it's hard. It's hard to get leadership that's going to support it. It's hard to get a team that's going to believe in it. It's hard to keep your sanity. In your patients together that long, but it takes time. And the bigger the organization, the more broken the organization, the more time it takes. It doesn't mean though, that there aren't going to be tangible victories along that path. It doesn't mean that there aren't going to be ways where you're going to see things getting better. But you have to have patience to get through this. You have to have the patience to try to solve problems in different ways. when things don't work the first time. You have to say, look, this is important. We need a creative brief, we need a process. We need people to believe we need a lot of different things. If it doesn't work, the first way you thought it was going to do I have the patience, do I have the strength to back up and try again to try it a different way until it does work? And that's the hard part. That's the challenge. So this is just the starter kit to go through to think about getting your head on right. Knowing that changing the perception of your team is a huge part of what you need to do. That it's being about ideas, not deliverables. That you have to define what you need to succeed on an internal and an external basis, learn to speak business to be able to demonstrate the value to other people to demonstrate value to the business beyond design. Invest in your people, they are your people, you are the center of the hurricane. There is such incredible power in that, but you have to believe in them, and invest in those strategic relationships. And the thing is, is that I accept that for much of this process, there's not going to be a light at the end of the tunnel, except for you believing that it can happen. Your company is going to resist the change because it's scary. It's new, and it's uncertain. Your team may resist this change, because it's scary. It's new and it's uncertain. So during this time, success is going to depend on you. Are you willing to stay the course? Are you willing to believe when nobody else does? Well, you get defeated by those problems or find another way through Will you put in the work to bring about that change even when you don't know if it's going to pay off? Will you believe in your team and what they can become, even in those moments where they may not believe it? Because they've heard it before? They've heard other people come in and talk about great change and saw no results? Will you believe? Because for me the way that I always think about this, the thing that I would leave you with the challenge where if whenever I say this, you say, hell yeah, I want that challenge is that if there is no light at the end of that tunnel, and if you're the one that's gonna have to drive it, there's some days there most days, you have to sign up to light that bitch up on your own, to be the light in that tunnel to show them the way until we can find the light and until we can see it. And that lights got to come from courage. It's got to come from courage that you can bring change, and you can bring leadership that you won't have all the answers that you may be the most confident, uncertain. person in this process, but you're willing to try, you're willing to step up. And so here's the thing that I would say is that if you're willing to try, if you're willing to do that change, I'll give you whatever help I can. Whatever my sanity, my time and legal constraints, to be honest, will allow. I'll help. Try it though. Don't just show up and say, Hey, tell me how to do everything. Cuz I'm gonna tell you to listen to this podcast. But here's the thing is that there's a whole community of people who want to do this. There's a whole community of people who are trying to do this, some of us have found six have some success in doing it. Some are still working through it. But if we all try, if we share what we learn, and if we put that out there, and if we have the courage to be the ones who are going to try to make the difference, the industry will start to turn we can take advantage of more of these opportunities, we can get more and better design leadership in place to affect more of Change. I'm here to help. Send me an email, go to the Facebook page, write me a question, do something. And I'll do whatever I can. Hopefully, this has given you some light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully this has given you some sort of a plan or some way to start thinking about this stuff. If there's more that you want to know, like I said, shoot me an email, on the Facebook page, ask the question I would actually prefer if you were on the Facebook page, because I think one of the things is that I would rather prefer the question be out in the open. I'd rather let multiple people see it. I'd rather let multiple people be able to learn from it. But ask if any of this is helpful. If you like the show, if you actually listen to some or most of these episodes, the only payment I would ask for is take a minute toward iTunes, leave a review, makes a huge difference helps with the show helps get the word out there. Makes me feel better because again, I'm not putting an insignificant amount of time into trying to help share this stuff with you guys in it. It's a nice You know, thing that just let me know that this is making a difference to people. If you want to find out more about this show, if you want to get the show notes, if you want to go through and read some related articles and things like that, head over to the website, it's podcast, Stephen Gates calm Steven is still STP h en, I put a lot of work into the show notes. So all of the things we've talked out here are going to be spelled out, go over and head over to Facebook. And like I said, like the page that we have there, just go to The Crazy One podcast and give it a like, you can get updates, you can ask questions, I check it at least a couple times a day. So it's an easy way to be able to interact. As always, the boys down legal want me to remind you that all of us here on my own, they don't represent any of my current or former employers. These are just my own thoughts. And I say it every time because I mean it every time but thank you for your time. I know the time is truly the only real luxury that we have. I'm always incredibly humbled that you see the value and want to spend any of it with me until the next show and until we talk again and as always Stay crazy