Ep 17 Hiring: How do you find and hire better creatives?!?

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates dives into the critical process of finding and hiring top talent for your team. With competition for skilled professionals at an all-time high, what should you be looking for in candidates? How can you refine your hiring techniques, and what pitfalls should you steer clear of? Join Stephen as he shares his proven questions, key indicators to identify exceptional talent, and innovative assessment methods he’s developed over the years. Tune in to elevate your hiring strategy and build a powerhouse team!

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Stephen Gates : 0:00

What's going on my crazy ones? Welcome to the 17th episode of The Crazy One podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design and a whole host of other things that matter to create a people. So a few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of sitting down for a live Ask me anything session with the folks over at designer hangout and envision and it was a really cool thing. I haven't really done anything like that. It was pretty new experience for me, but I absolutely loved it. I love the energy. I love the questions. And I love that it wasn't scripted. And one of the most interesting moments of that came whenever Jared spool asked me a question, partially because it got a huge reaction. If you don't know who Jared is, you need to go look him up online. He is an incredibly influential, incredibly smart guy. He asked me about hiring. What do I look for when I hire people? And I said something along the lines of whenever I'm hiring The things that I really focus on are people's ability to think their passion, their hunger, and chemistry, because I think I really need to hire people that I really believe in. Well, that quote, got picked up. And a lot of quotes from that got picked up. But that one in particular got retweeted 100 or more times. And people seem to really connect with that. So based on that, I wanted to spend a little bit more time talking about it, going into a bit more depth about it, because I think whenever you hire creative people, it is way more of an art than a science. Because it's tough. How do you evaluate something that's subjective, but that's what we're gonna focus on today. And we're going to focus on it in two different ways. I think the first thing is just in general, whenever you're looking to hire somebody, when you're looking to interview somebody, what are some of the things you should avoid, but then also whenever you're actually going through that interview process. What are the some of the things that you should be looking for? What are some of the telltale signs that are going to lead you to really find the right person? So this is for the people who are hiring. If you are somebody who's looking to get hired, you can go back in the catalog and I did three episodes that really went through how to really master the interview process. But this is for people who want to build a better team and find better people. So let's jump in. And let's start to talk about what Shouldn't you do? What should you avoid? Because too often, I think the thing that I see is that the interview process becomes more of a, I guess it's more of a personality test than an actual assessment. Because so often, somebody will come in, they'll go through in the interview, and you'll get an email from HR, whoever the person is, it's going to be their boss and said, Hey, what do you think about so and so? And so often? The answer is Oh, I thought they were great. They're really nice person. I've never understood this. This isn't an interview for a friend. This isn't an entry. View to have an entourage This is an interview to have somebody who can join your team and produce and I think that you have to be able to get in there and ask them the hard questions, you have to be able to find out what's really going on in there. So I think the first thing that you need to avoid are the easy to practice questions. The Tell me about yourself, tell me where you've been or what inspires you or what motivates you. It's, for me, I always think about it that I want to get them off the script. Because this isn't the first time that I've had an any exposure to them, looked at their resume looked at their portfolio, or their creative samples or whatever it was, and that got them the seat in this chair. But what I want to do is I want to see what's between those things. I want to fill in the blanks. I want something more than just the resume in the portfolio. I want the story behind it. And we all have that we all have that easily rehearsed sort of shtick that you do whenever it's just to give the overview of yourself but as the interviewer You have to get past that you have to get them off their script. And like, just don't do the, you know, what are your greatest strengths and weaknesses? Why are you the best candidate? What's your dream job? I mean, good lord, this isn't speed dating. I mean, you actually want to get something substantive out of this. I think that the other thing to think about for me is to try to avoid in, in many cases, historical questions. The one thing that you've see is that history can be spun. It can be selectively told it can be audited and augmented, and changed in ways that somebody who maybe isn't a good fit for the team. Maybe it's somebody who isn't terribly talented, but is a really good storyteller. Well, those people might be able to bend history in their favor, they might be able to go in and to be able to turn it into something that it wasn't but that's the inherent problem with history. It's looking backwards. It's already happened and rarely does it give you the idea. to really go in and understand what happened, because not everybody who is there is going to be involved in this. So roles can be exaggerated and things like that. So just be aware of historical questions, because so often, if I do want to ask about something historical because your portfolio by its very essence is historical, whenever I'm doing that I'm doing because I want to understand the thinking that went into it, the process that went into it, I don't need a history channel reenactment of who said what and what the client meeting was like? I want to understand the thinking and the thought and the passion and the strength and all these other things that went into it, because that's what really is going to matter to me. And I think that that's just some of the basics right? But I think that so often those basics are what most interviews sort of fall into. So how do I do it wasn't any different and what can you learn from that and how can maybe you start to interview Little bit differently or a little bit more, just a little bit tougher, because I think one of the things that I've seen and one of the things that I've found that I've talked about this before is that great companies get great people because they have a great and tough interview process. The process at Apple and Google and Facebook and all these other places, is no kind of thing to be able to just kind of laugh off, they really put you through the wringer. And the reason why they do that is because they want the best candidates and because of that they get some of the best people. So how can you do that? And one of the some of the things that you can do? Well, the first thing that I want to focus on, obviously, because it's the thing that is the stock and trade of my group, it is the lifeblood of why we exist, is I want to see can they solve a problem? And can they think, because I think that, you know, in a lot of cases, this would be like interviewing a chef or a cook. I'm not actually asking them to cook me anything. It seems ridiculous in that car. text that of course, if I'm going to hire a cook or a chef, or even a caterer, well, I'm gonna taste their food. But so often whenever we transpose this and the product becomes a little bit more ethereal, it becomes creativity or leadership or some of these other things. Well, then all of a sudden, people aren't asking to get that test dish. They're just kind of taking people at their word. And I don't buy into that. I think that for me, I really want to see it happen. I want to watch it kind of unfold in front of me. And so I think there are two different ways to go about this. And so I think that you the one thing that I'll do is that if it's somebody who is coming in for a leadership role, leadership is very ethereal. And this is especially prone to the historical reenactment sort of syndrome. So what I want to do is I actually want to put them in a room with the team, give them a problem to solve, and just watch what happens. What's their leadership like, what's their voice? Like? How do they manage the room? Are they dominating and are they the one that's giving all the ideas Is there room and space and air for other people to contribute? How are they managing that? And is it good? Or is it bad? And I think that it is this idea because it really works, right? It is real time. And it is reactive, because it's the truth, you can really, really watch it happen. And I think that these sort of interactions between anybody in a leadership position in the team are quite honestly even flipping around. And even if it's going to be a team member, put them in with everybody else and see how they do. Because that's really the thing that matters, and it becomes very, very real time. It's not a historical reenactment. It's not talking about work that was in the past. I think that it is one of those things where it just really tells you the truth about some of that stuff. And I think that the other thing that I've done, I've talked about this for a long time, it's probably easily the most stolen idea that I've had, and I know it's being used by tons and tons of people is also just on a one on one basis. If I want to see their creativity, how do I come up with an exercise to be able to watch that and put it on display, the one that I've used the most, it still consists of two stacks of cards. The one stack of cards is a stack of brands. These are brands you've heard of these are brands. Everybody knows these are the Nikes, the apples, the Googles, the Tesla's the anything that you want, right? But these are common brands that everybody would know. The second stack is a list of products purposely and meaningfully, comical in their juxtaposition against those brands. It's gas cans, inflatable pools, jewelry, all sorts of things that are purposely meant to be an interesting juxtaposition because what I'm going to have the candidate do is draw one card from the brand and one card from the product. The juxtaposition then of why would Twitter make jewelry Why would outtie make a gas can why would Nike makeup, lipstick, I mean any of these sort of things, that juxtaposition is then what I would give them one To think about in two minutes to pitch me on, it's not because I'm searching for the right answer. But what I'm seeing is how much and how well can they summon their creativity on demand? Can they do it? Well? Can they do it quickly? Can they connect the dots in a way? That's interesting, that's different. And that can move beyond the obvious. Because the reality is that as the person who's administering this test, you have to understand that the initial answers will be the obvious, because that's where most people's creativity starts. You start with the common thing, you start with the thing that most people would think of, but it's the divergence from there that as the creativity spins up, and as it starts to pinball, and as the connections start to happen, as it starts to go on, and that often the most interesting and the most telling part of that two minutes comes in the last 30 seconds, because in that last 30 seconds, one of two things is going to happen. Either you are going to start to get two really interesting, really differentiated ideas. They're going to show you this person can think In a really interesting way, or in that 30 seconds, you're gonna find a lot of silences. And I don't know is and I guess that's all I could think of sort of a thing. And that's telltale, that's a warning sign that if on something like this, that is just a juxtaposition that has no right answer that invites people to create as wild of idea as they can. Well, in the face of that, if you run out of ideas in only a two minute time span, that's also something that's very telling. And oftentimes, if the person does that, I may actually have them do it again, because I want to see if it just was nerves, did they lose focus? Were they not prepared to be able to come in and do more than just their script? Or was it something that there is a real problem there and the way that they connect their dots, their connection with their creative process is something that is a bit more significantly broken than I might have thought. But that's really the intent of all this is that I want to see things Because that's the fuel that drives the engine of my team. That's what it is that I need. And a real time example of that, well, there's no substitute for that. Because I think that's really what makes it so important. The other interesting thing I think you can do with both of these exercises, whether it was the one and working with a team on leadership, or if it's the two cards exercise, is also have a bit of a conversation with them afterwards, to ask them about, okay, as you went through that process as you thought about why it is, whatever, Mercedes make a ice tea, what was that process? Like? What were you thinking about? What were the connections that were going in your head, walk me through what that process was like? What were the insights that you were coming to? What were the things that you were trying to solve for? What was your process like there? Because there again, I think that the people who are the strongest in the basket and start to articulate the things that they started to draw the connections, they started to make the insights that they started to lean on, whether they could empathize with a customer. Or not? or could they think about a brand and their positioning in this product? And why would the two makes sense. But this is the thing, this is the goal. This is the the meat of the issue that you want to get to are these sort of insights. So from there, we have the thinking, we've talked about that. It's the critical part. But it's not the only critical part. There's some other things that go with this that I think are equally just as important. The next one that I really try to look at, is their ability to see is this somebody who can learn and can they adapt? Because the reality is that for any team, and the challenges that they're going to face, they're constantly going to change. The tools that you use will evolve your clients may change the industry may evolve, consumers in society may change, change tends to be the only constant so that their ability to learn and to adapt is critical and how aware are they Have this because the challenges and the problem is is that especially with a lot of creatives, comfort is the enemy of greatness. We've talked about this in the past. But comfort can also be the enemy of greatness when it comes to your process and to your evolution, whether it's your part of your career path, whether it's the toolset that you use, but people get stuck in their ways, they get really comfortable, they start to do things the same way over and over. And I think that it's something that I tend to almost Rage Against of looking at my process, constantly looking at my toolset constantly, with a real eye and a willingness to blow it up, to rethink it to constantly question Is this the best that I could be doing? Because, for me, there's just that recognition that learning and adapting is so critical that as soon as I get comfortable, as soon as I assume, and take for granted, the way things are going to be is the is the second that I start to lose touch. And I think that for me personally in my career, that's one of my biggest fears is to become irrelevant is to lose touch. And the ability to learn and adapt is what I use to fight against that. How do you get this insight out of somebody? So some of the things that I would think about asking is whenever it comes to learning, ask them what are the steps that you take, if you to continuously maintain and continuously learn around a particular area or a particular subject? And this really depends on and you can tailor this depending on what the role is. If it's a strategist, how would they stay in touch with consumers? If it's a designer or a production designer? How would they stay in touch with their skill set? If it's a more senior designer? How do they stay in touch with design trends? But what are the things that they do to learn? Because the other thing that I really want to focus on is the fact that the more senior you get in your creative process, and we talked about this before, is that inspiration and motivation start to separate motivation being that thing that drives you That makes you want to continue to work hard, is different and becomes increasingly different from inspiration. And inspiration being that thing that keeps the gas in the tank. But learning is really a part of both of these because I have to stay motivated to stay relevant. And I have to stay inspired to continue to do new things. But both of those are born out of learning and the ability to adapt to be agile, the the word of the decade agile. In that case, I think it's one of those things where what I would do is to give them a scenario or ask them a question, ask them to imagine that if there was a dramatic, and probably even unexpected change that happened, whether it was in technology or consumers or clients or something like that, what would they do? How would they take that on? How would they think it through? Because in this case, you're going to see one or two answers. There's either the I'm going to keep doing what I'm going to do and I'm just going to kind of, I guess, stubbornly stick with it. Or there's the ability to take a step back and understand the problem, reformulate and then attack it from a different direction. Because this is something that I strongly strongly believe is that whenever it comes to creativity when it comes to problem solving and problem solving, whether it's in the work or problem solving in the way that you work with somebody, there's always an answer there. It's always always there. It's just Are you smart enough? Have you learned enough? And are you agile enough to be able to find it? Because that's the tough part is that if you work with a tough client, if you have a tough problem, do you give up? Do you just settle for good? Or are you the person that honestly is really going to stick in there and really get it done to find the way forward? And we're going to talk a bit more about that in a second. But the other thing that I think you need to really focus on is are they looking ahead, because this is this interesting balance because I think to be successful in any creative career, to be successful in any leadership position, you have to balance this ability to be an insider and an outsider at the same time. And if it is somebody that's joining the team, I need somebody that has the ability to look down the road a little bit more, somebody that will learn and adapt somebody that will invest in the team, but somebody who also understands where they want to go in their career, where their career and their industry is going, somebody that's has a bit more of a heads up view of their career of their work of innovation of a lot of different things. Because you need that Northstar, you need some idea of where it is that you're going with. You're working with your career because I think this is the one thing and I've talked about this in the episodes when we did on Creative development. I've talked about it in the episodes that we did on kind of your career and being able to do better whenever you go and do these interviews. But you need to know where your career is going. And you need to have a Northstar because I think too many people are just simply complacent. In allowing their career to be dictated by whatever the role is they're currently in will give them. And I don't think that that's always possible, or I don't think that that's always the right answer. Because in some cases, you have to know what you need. And you have to look for it, encourage it, demand it, from leadership from the team, from the company that you're working for, to make sure that you're still moving forward. I think that in many cases, people will give up on their team or give up on their leaders because what they want isn't being given to them, as opposed to taking a bit more control of their career, understanding that you're not always gonna get everything that you need from even the best leadership and even the best teams, that you have to have this idea of where it is you want to go. Well, that's what I want to try to find out whenever I interview these people. Do they have that sense? If they think about where they want to be in five years? Can they answer that question? Can they tell me in this next job, what do they want to do more of or what are they want to do less of Have you thought about that? Or is it somebody who is just simply chasing a title and chasing salary? Because those are definitely not the people that I want the ones that are chasing the title or egomaniacs, they're going to wreck my team. I don't need any divas and I damn sure don't need a rock stars, I need people who are going to come in and understand that nothing is beneath them. And people who are chasing salary, they're just in it for the money. And if they're just in it for the money, then it's just a job, they're not going to invest in anything they're gonna be loyal to is their paycheck. I'm perfectly fine, very well compensating somebody for their skill set. But it has to be more than just that. So how do you get to this? How do you try to get some of these things out of their head? And so here again, if this is somebody that's in a leadership position, then that's the case where what I'm going to ask them is, what is your first three to six months look like? What's your process? What's the steps? What are the things that you want to get done? Because no matter what the company is, no matter what the team is, you should have some idea of what do you need to be a leader. What do you need? to come in and make an impact, what are your thoughts? So give me what those steps are. And here again, if it's just a generic, I'm gonna come in, I'm going to see what's going on. I'm gonna adapt blah, blah, blah, that's a BS answer. That's not an answer. Anybody can say that. Get specifics. And I'll ask them very specifically for those things. Because I want real answers. I'm not going to settle for just, you know, the the cheesy blow off. But this is one of those things as well is that if they're an individual contributor, then this is the case where you need to come back and ask them, what do they want out of that position where they want to go in their career, what do they want to be doing more of? What do they want to be doing less of, because if they can't articulate those things, that's a problem. Because the reality is, is that I cannot be holistically responsible for their happiness. And the problem is, is that most creatives do not know how to be happy. I will say it I've said it in the past. I know that some people think that that is controversial or that they disagree with it. But the creatives are naturally pragmatic. We are people that look for connections where other people don't see them. We look at things And see problems or we see opportunities. Well, that often is an off switch that most people can't flip in themselves. And in many cases, happiness is an act of will. It's true. In my case, it's true. In a lot of other cases. It's true of tons and tons of people who have worked on my teams who I've asked very directly, do they know how to be happy? In many cases, they will come back 2448 36 hours later, and tell me that they haven't been sleeping? Because they don't know the answer to that question. It's not anything that they've ever thought about before. But that's the thing is that I need them to think about it. Because if all they're going to do is come in and expect me to be responsible for the Northstar of their career, make me responsible for their happiness make me responsible for so that every little bump burpin booboo is somehow my problem. We're not going to get along well, because the team isn't going to succeed because at an organization of any scale, even however small it might be, leadership cannot be burdened with that. It's not that I'm not willing to put my back into it. It's not the I'm not willing to invest in them. But it's a two way street. This is a 5050 proposition, and I will show up with my half if they show up with theirs. But this is one of those things that really has to happen. So I think that those are just kind of the two basic things. And we talked a bit about determination. And are they really going to stick with it? Because I think the other thing that becomes incredibly important or that I really look for our determination, and ownership, and I think this is why if you look at the pedigrees and the resumes and things like that of teams that I've had probably my entire career, you would probably be pretty shocked with where they came from. Some of come from the big agencies, the big design schools, they would have the names and some of the companies that you would expect but some absolutely have not. Some of come from community colleges, some came from no college at all. Some came from tiny little companies. Were Working on brands that nobody ever heard of. But those are the people that I often like the best, because those are the people that so often are the hungriest, they take the biggest ownership and they take the biggest determination, because I need at some point people who aren't going to take no for an answer because we work in an industry and we work in a medium of creativity, that's subjective. And if it's subjective, you need to have a determination to be able to really work it through you have to work with clients who love you and clients who don't you have to work on long timelines and short timelines. But in either case, you have to be determined enough to overcome those obstacles, then you have to be determined enough as your career changes, because your career will change. You go from in the early stages of being somebody that will emulate what other people do to learn. Well, then that stage ends and now you're responsible for more of your own ideas. But then once that's over, now, you have this whole other thing where now you have to be somebody that steps up to try to be more of a leader and that takes a whole completely different set of skills than what it does just to be the person who is the designer, the writer or the creative. And if you don't have the determination, if you don't have the ownership over your work and over yourself to be able to see that and make those changes, you stagnate. I see tons and tons of incredibly talented people. their careers have flatlined, and they stopped because they don't have the determination to break through one of those barriers. You know, one of the stories that I always tell is there's a designer who to this day still works for me. He's worked for me across two different teams. But this was a guy who grew up in upstate New York in a little town, went to college in New York and really wanted to be a designer and it wasn't happening for him. But he was so determined to make it happen that he spent nearly three years couchsurfing with friends in New York City. doing freelance jobs just simply determined that it was going to happen, and that he was somebody that I just came across this book he was recommended to me by somebody else who was a freelance That was working with me. But that was the case was he was somebody who needed to learn how to pitch and how to present himself because he didn't have a ton of the really big work that was going to get noticed and get them to stand out. But the reality is, is that somebody who's willing to do that, go to that length to sleep on people's couches and essentially be homeless for years. Hell, I mean, I'll take somebody on like that on my team all day, all day long, all week long and probably twice on Sundays. Because the reality is that that that determination is unstoppable. This is a kid that if I'm up late, it's midnight. It's one in the morning, I'm going through and I had a long day, I didn't get to do the creative review with him that I should have. He sent me the the comps for it. And I go through and I sent him that feedback at 12 or one in the morning. He's writing me back at three or 330 in the morning because he stayed up to do the work. That's determination that's ownership and for anybody that just said, Wow, that sounds crazy in their head. You need to rethink why you just said that because The reality is, is that this is the Hunger Games, the best people rise, the ones who only settle for great rise, the ones who don't have that determination, who don't have that ownership who aren't willing to do things like that fade. And that's the reality is because there's too much talent, there are too many people around, there's too much creativity to be able to do anything but that so you have to have that determination. But whenever I interview them, here again, how do you find that? How do you see it? How do you dig that out of somebody? And so the thing that I want to do is I want to talk to them and I want to look and try to find a story about something that they wanted really badly, something that they were unstoppable about really pursuing something or they overcame an obstacle that they didn't think that they would. Maybe that was in the work, maybe it was with a team, but it's just asking something that open ended about tell me the time that you overcame something you didn't think you could or tell me the time that you overcame it. Recall that you didn't think you were going to be able to. And then it's really because I want to get a sense of can they stick it out? How long are they going to beat their head against that wall until, you know, they really fix it? Because I think that on the one hand, here, again, is the most satisfying problem to solve is the toughest one. We talked about trying to get somebody who's going to come in and be happy. That's not an insignificant thing. But if the story that they tell me is how they tried something once and it didn't work, and so they went and did something else. Well, that's a red flag too, because I think that's a lot of like I said, this is more of the art and the science is trying to knit the answers all these little things together to see what's the outcome of that. And because I think the outcome of that determination of the of that ownership is impact. Because this is the other thing is that ultimately, that's the number one thing that I'm probably looking for is somebody that can make an impact. make an impact on the work, make an impact on the team make an impact on the company, just make it impact in general? And do they actually understand that they can do this? Do they just simply see their role as an execute? Or somebody that comes in and gets their paycheck and does their job and thinks that that's all it is they can do? Or do they see that through work and through creativity. You can change companies, you can change hearts and minds. And however, I don't know what Hallmark cards, some people may find that it's the truth. And that really is something whenever I come in and work on this stuff that I really feel like I'm there to be able to make a difference. So have them tell me about a time where they felt like they made a measurable impact on the job, or on an organization or on a team or something. But sometime when they came in, and they made a difference. Tell me what that was like, tell me how long ago was it? Tell me what was it and have you tried to do more of it? Because these are the things that matter? These are the soft skills, these are the things beyond the portfolio that make somebody a really great team member. And the other thing that I'll say is that sometimes if you ask them To do that, if it's somebody that is young in their career, if it's somebody that just hasn't had the opportunity to contribute like that. The other thing you can do is ask them. It could be about a person, it could be about a company that they admire. And why do they think that that person or that organization has made an important impact? Because sometimes if they don't have their direct example for that, well, that you can still get the information that you need out of just what do they think impact is and what do they think the difference is? And are they again, really paying attention? And the last part for me really is teamwork. Because for me, chemistry counts. It is something that I absolutely think about. It's something that I am obsessed about putting the right pieces together to get the right things to happen. Because here again, creativity and the creative process is unique to each person. If it's unique, it needs to be complimentary. It needs to be supportive of each other and not destructive to each other because different people create in different ways. And that I need this chemistry to be able to work. But the thing that's of note here is that that is my responsibility as someone who is hiring as someone who is in leadership, to pay attention to this, to understand what is it that this team needs, what are the things that they need to be able to bring to the table to be able to complement and add to what's there, because the reality is that I've passed on a lot of incredibly talented people, because I just don't think they're going to be a good fit for the team. They're too much of a rock star, they're too much of a diva. They were too passive. They were somebody that it was just something that for what that role needed, they weren't really going to do it. And if you're somebody that hasn't been paying attention to this, if you're somebody that's not sure how to do this, I'll give you a bit of a cheat sheet, a bit of a training wheels to be able to get started for this. So what you want to do is you want to go to Google and I'll also put a link to this in the show notes. Obviously, but the good people over at SP partners. And if that is not a company name that you know, well, then you need to go know them, you need to be able to spend some time and looking at some of the tools and some of the things that they produced around creativity because it truly is some of the best out there. They have a fantastic app that I will recommend called unstuck, which is whenever you're working on your creativity as a really good app to figure out how to get you unstuck and get the ideas flowing again. But the other tool that they've created is something that's called the swipe partners creative superpowers deck. It unfortunately doesn't come with a cape. It doesn't come with any boots or a large belt buckle. But what it does come with is a deck of cards. And this deck of cards is a great exercise because what you do is you have each person on the team take this deck of cards, and you take two cards at a time, one card in each hand. You read the description that's on the back of it and you decide of those two which one describes me the best you discard The one that you think is not the better version of you. And you do this over and over again until you're down to just one card, and that's your superpower. Well, as a leader, what you want to do is you want to get your entire team to do it. Because what I can start to do is I can start to understand who is the person that's the big picture person, who is the person that's the determination person, the grit person that can get the team through the tough spot? Who are the people that are more somebody that is really going to come in and bring the team together be more of a motivator, and Energizer. But these are all different things. But the reality is, is that you need different combinations at different times. So it's a good cheat sheet to start to realize that if I have all motivators, and I have nobody with any grit, well then that next hire that I need to make, maybe should focus a bit more on grit because I need somebody that can really get in there and really push the ball forward. But it's this combination this superfriends and Justice League of creativity. That is what really matters is that you need the different skill sets to be able to pull this together to be able to kind of make it all work So what are the things that you look for whenever you talk about teamwork? What are some of the things that you listen for? The one thing that I think is probably the truest indication of this, because it is a really a subconscious act for most people, is whenever you ask them to talk about the last team they're with or to talk about the team, whenever they did a particular piece of work, do they use the word AI? Or do they use the word we, it's incredibly telling. It's something that you can also use as a leader to gauge the health and the cohesion of a team. Because if everybody is using the word AI, then they're thinking about what they're doing as individual contributors. They're not thinking about the bigger hole, the bigger team, the thing that needs to come together. But if they're using the word we, then we means that we're thinking about other people we're working together, we understand that creativity is a team sport, and that everybody has to play and be on the team for it to work. So I think that that's a real simple one is just listen for that. But the other thing that I'll do is something, maybe you simpler, a little bit Goofy, as I'll ask them, tell me two or three personal things about two or three year old teammates. Can you tell me what their wife likes to cook for dinner? Can you tell me what their kid is studying in school? Can you tell me the name of their dog? Is there any investment beyond the normal lunchroom banter of Hey, Bob, what did you do over the weekend that you can tell me about? Did you invest in that person at all? And I think this is an absolutely critical question. If it's somebody that's actually going to be leading other people, because on my teams, the expectation is, is that you're going to invest in your team members, you're going to invest in their creative process, you're going to help them and guide them, and to be a part of what is a very personal process for them. You can't do that at arm's length. You can't do it as some just disconnected theory that you actually have to spend time and pay attention to people to get that to work. So can you tell me anything personal about any of them, because the other part of this can be if they don't want to do that if it feels uncomfortable? If you feel uncomfortable with asking it. There may be some other ways you could do it. Think about asking them, you know, when they're working on a team? What's the hardest part of that for them? What about a time whenever they worked on a difficult team? Why was it difficult for them? And what do they do about it? And honestly, what makes them the happiest and the most effective when they work with other people? Because here again, these are the insights that I want to get to is to understand if it's somebody that just wants to be that Rockstar, egomaniac, they want the the party of one sort of a thing, the one man army because I don't need that. It's going to be too disruptive. And it's not worth the headache no matter how talented they are. But that's the thing is how do they How do they come in? And how do they do that? But I think that the other thing to realize is that being part of a team means something it means believing in something. And so in addition to all the tests and the questions and the things that you're looking for, make sure you also just leave some time to talk to them because I want to solve Have them on the team sold them on what it is that we're building the company, because we spend so much time trying to assess people trying to put them into a box. But I also want to get them excited about what it is that we're doing, I want to sell them on the job and on the company and the potential of what this is because I want them to buy into this because I don't want this to be just like every other job. I don't want it to just be where you come in and get a paycheck. And don't do much more than that, that I want to sell them a bit on that. And I want to be able to have that conversation to let them ask whatever questions they want. Because I think the thing that I've always done is let them talk to whoever they want. ask whatever questions they want. And I think that if you're somebody who is also on the other side of this, that's what you have to expect. Because the big warning sign is the company that won't let you talk to anybody that won't let you ask those questions. Because so often those become the jobs where after you start, well, only then do you find out how big the difference was between the job description that they told you it was going to be and the reality of what the job actually is. And nobody wants that. And people won't stay for that they won't invest in it, they weren't buying it, I want somebody that is going to come in and really buy into this. But those are just the basics, right? And I think that for your team, for what you need for the role that you need, you can apply and you can weight all of these things differently. Because what you want to do with your team, what you want to do with your hire is gonna be different than what I want to do, what you value because of your makeup, your leadership style, the company that you work in the clients that you have, the creative work that goes out the door is going to be different. But I think that any successful team has had all of these things. They've had people who can really think they've had people who can learn and adapt. They can take on those challenges and be able to come at them from a different angle because that's the heart of what creativity is and you have to be able to do that in more than just the problem that's in front of you. They're people that are determined. These are people that make an impact. They understand the value of teamwork and owning all of this. And it's up to them to carry the message and be a part of what that team stands for. Because only when you come together and you realize that creativity is a team sport, do you start doing truly great creativity, because the individual contributors, it's just not as good. It's just not the same. And I think that that's why this is all so incredibly important. Because at the end of the day, you're going to get a better team, honestly, by doing one of two different things. I think you take the team that you have, and you start to build a strong, distinct leadership culture. And if you don't know how to do that, go back and listen to the episodes whenever I talked about leadership and things like that, because I clearly lay it out. Or you hire better people, you hire smarter people whenever they come in, you hire more talented, more passionate, more determined people whenever they come in, I tend to think honestly, you damn well better do both. Because even if you hire those great people, the only way you're going to keep them is to continue to grow them. They need to know that the work they're going to do tomorrow is better than the work that they do today, there is no shortcut for that. creatives don't like to sit still, they don't like to be stagnant. But this is where you have to make sure that they're the right fit, and they can think and that you're getting what you want. You know, you don't want to think that you're opening a high end restaurant, but you end up with the cook that came from McDonald's. So get them to cook you a dish. Get them to see how they think. And get under the hood and spend some time with them. And if you need to put them in with the team, see how they do. Give them homework, let them go solve a problem, give them 24 hours, come back with a design, send back your thoughts, send back your work, send back your Photoshop file, but somehow figure it out, figure out what's going to work for you. If these aren't the steps for you then figure out what they are. Because I think this is the intro This is the basics This is the foundation of leadership is that if you can't have people that do this, your leadership is going to fail. And that is a big, big problem. As always, if you liked the show, if you liked what it is, I have to say if you find any of this useful, and I know that more and more of you do then the payment that I would ask for is please head over to iTunes just take a couple seconds it's all I asked for I'm putting out content every single week for free. Pay me back, go over to iTunes make a review if that's something that you really feel like right a couple of words let me know if not if you want to take the lazy route the simple route that just couple seconds route, go in search for the show, just click on the stars couldn't be simpler, couldn't be easier. But as always, if you want to find out more about the show if you want to get those show notes if you want to listen to other shows or anything like that, head over to podcast dot Stephen Gates calm you can listen to Older episodes, you can find all the show notes. You can find the show notes for this show, just head over there, click on episodes and you'll find this one in the feed there. If you have any questions, if there's anything you want to talk to me about, ask any questions about anything you want to talk about on a future show. Send it on over and I'll get back to you as soon as I can, you can send it to ask at Stephen Gates calm, and as always, Stephen is s t e e p h, n. And as always, the boys down and legal well dammit, they just insist that I let you know that all the views here on my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. This is just me talking about what matters to me. And finally, I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only luxury that we have. And I'm always incredibly humbled that you want to spend any of it with me, as always, and until next time. Stay crazy.