Ep 16 In-house design: The secrets to becoming a successful in-house designer

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates delves into the unique challenges faced by in-house design teams, from navigating office politics and tight budgets to earning the respect they deserve. Drawing on over a decade of experience building and leading award-winning client-side creative teams, Stephen shares essential insights and strategies to help you thrive in this dynamic environment. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster collaboration, and elevate your team’s impact within your organization!

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What's going on everybody, you found your way into the 16th episode of The Crazy One podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership design and a whole host of other things that matter to creative people. And so in this episode, we're actually going to talk about just that. We're going to talk about creativity a little bit more. We started talking about it a little bit in the very first episode, but I want to come back and talk about it a little bit more. I'm feeling especially inspired this week, because thanks to the New York Times, I got to go to an incredibly cool and an incredibly rare event. I got to spend about a little bit over an hour sitting down and listening to film director Tim Burton, talking about his work, his process and his creativity. And if you're anything like me films like Edward Scissorhands Beetlejuice and The Nightmare Before Christmas, were a huge part of my upbringing and really understanding what could storytelling be, what could creativity be, and that you could do all of that and be really different and defy convention in how you Do it. And so it's that thought of defying convention that really led me to the type of creativity that I want to talk about today. Because I want to talk about the type of creativity that happens once you leave the ad agency world. And once you go over to work for a brand or you work, what we often will call client side, it's that creativity. And I think that it's a very different and very special type of creativity. And the thing is, is that I see a lot of my friends, leaving other industries they're leaving at agencies, they're leaving all sorts of different places. Because we're at this really interesting time where companies are starting to value design, they're starting to value creativity. And so a lot of those teams and a lot of the really good talent has started to go work for these companies. Well, I've seen some of those people be incredibly successful, they've gone on to do great work, but about equal parts. I've also seen equally talented people go there and absolutely flame out and fail. Usually within A year shortly after they've been fired. And oftentimes they end up having to go back to the agency world. And I think that, you know, for me, it used to be that whenever you would go and work for a company like that, well, creatively, that was where you went when you wanted to retire, or you wanted to kind of just fade off into the sunset. But it's really not that way anymore. And I think that that client side, creativity has some really unique challenges. So that's what we're going to talk about today. And we're going to talk about it in really kind of four different areas. The first one is just a simple look at why is it different? Why is working inside of a big company, and trying to be creative, different than everyplace else in the world? Whenever you're there? What's the type of mindset that you need to have? How do you create a vision and to be able to kind of bring that to life? And then most importantly, how can you be effective? I want to talk about this. Whether you are an individual creative person who is just at a company doing work by himself, whether you're on a team of Korean to people or whether you're leading a team of creative people, because I think all of these things really apply. So let's jump in. And let's start with why is this client side creativity so different? Because this was something that I got wrong, because I've spent at this point about equal parts of my career, working in at agencies and working on the client side. And it is different. And it took me a little bit of time to wrap my head around it. Let's just start with that. The foundation of why is it different. And I think that the core of it is that you just have to understand as a creative person, or as a creative team, that your place inside of the company and the way that you're viewed is different. Because if you're at a pure creative space, you're at an ad agency, you're at a consulting firm, you're at something like that. Being creative is the heart of the house. It's the reason for being it's the fuel that drives the engine that moves the company forward. So the creative people occupy a very special and a very interesting place where they're celebrated and given a lot of leeway to really kind of do whatever it is that they want. Well, the thing that I saw, and it took me a little bit of time to realize was obviously, whenever you move to a client side team, you aren't the heart of the house anymore. And I'll give you two examples. Whenever I went to go work at Starwood Hotels, design driven company, innovative company, fantastic whenever it came to the value of design, but the reality was at the end of the day, design was just simply one of the attributes that was part of our product, what we were really trying to do was to put heads in beds, we were trying to fill hotel rooms. And now whenever I work at City, this is about getting people to trust us with their money. And it took me a while to understand that in both of these companies, design is very, very important. The companies can see the value in design, they understand the differentiator that it can be, but it's not the heart of the house. It's not the reason for being and that design has now become one of several things. Different things that have to compete for attention, because they're all equally important. So because of this, you have to become a little bit more strategic. And to be successful, you have to think about how do you position yourself? How do you position your team? Or if you're leading a team, how do you position all of that to be able to create the most impact create the most value and to do the best work? Because getting that work out the door is a little bit different. And so this is one of those things where so often, I think a lot of it comes down to mindset, it comes down to positioning in the way that you think about things. I'll be honest that I think over the course of my entire career, I've only agreed to speak at one what was called a client side creative conference, because most of the time I find these teams because they don't understand how to position themselves. Well, these conferences are about people who just complain. They complain about how they aren't taken seriously. They complain about how they don't get the good work. They complain about how the best work goes outside to agencies and how people just don't understand. And I think if you step back from that, and the reason why it frustrates me so much is that there are two truths that you need to embrace. The first is that if you're an internal client side creative or creative team, you should be able to beat any agency and anybody else up and down the block and twice on Sunday. Because you are living and breathing this brand, you are, in many cases, as close as you can be to the actual decisions that get made. So that there really shouldn't be any excuse why great work shouldn't go out the door, if there is an excuse. The most common way that I've see this come to life, is that like I said before, the person or the group doesn't necessarily really understand how to demonstrate their value. Because what they'll do is they make themselves a commodity, instead of being a critical asset, because a commodity is something that you just use when you need And throw away when you're done with it a critical asset as part of every major business decision. And I think that that sounds very easy to say, become a critical asset. But it requires you to now really be able to leverage things like strategy and politics and hard work and great work really more than anything, because the matrix that you're going to have to work through when you go client side is going to be different. Because your clients inherently come to you, whenever you're at an agency or when you're an external creative firm. They understand what your product is, and that's what it is they want to buy into. Whenever you're an internal team, that value proposition may not be quite as clear. And I think that the first thing that you're going to need to do and the first thing that I've always done is to understand that you got to work your ass off. There's really not going to be a way around this because at the end of the day, and I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, the work is the truth. People want great ideas. They know when ideas are great and when they're not. They want great design and great executions. And they know when they're not. And they will lose patience. If they aren't. If your work isn't better than the ad agency, if you aren't working harder than they are, then you're going to continue to struggle with that problem that external agencies are going to look at as being smarter than you. And that's a real problem. Because it is that hard work. And it's the quality of those ideas that are going to build you the most important thing, which is trust. And I've talked about this in the past when we talked about presentation skills about the importance of trust and confidence, how those are the two biggest things that your group really needs to sell. And I think that that really makes sense here as well. Because what I do whenever I come into one of these positions is that I know that I need to position my group to show its value. And that while I'm new and that shiny and that it comes with the ability to play the new guy card, it also comes with a shelf life, that so often I have four to six months at most, to be able to show some tangible change, to be able to demonstrate Like I said before, that if Work is the truth, that the work is better, the thinking is better. And that there's a reason to believe. And I think a lot of it really starts to come down to how do you position yourself. And that's so often the way that I'll describe this to people. And so often the way that I think about it, is that I want to create basically an internal ad agency with just a client or clients who can't fire us. So it's a an agency mindset with a service soul. Because I think if you lean just to the service side of it, then you become too much of an a commodity. And I think in my experience, that's been the single biggest hurdle to running a successful client side team or to being a successful client side creative is that you have much more of a production mentality, a commodity mentality. And what that is, is it means that you or your group, you're always on the defense, you're always having to defend your work. You have very little control over what it is that you're able to do. You take projects without question and you design The solution that's so often has started to been sketched out for you already. They just really want you to color in the lines. And then whenever it's done, you take this one single idea. You take it into the client meeting so often putting it on the table and sliding it across the table asking the client to just simply tell you, what's wrong with it. And I think that, that, again, if you understand your place in the organization, understand that that makes you a commodity, that yes, you're always going to have to do the basics. You have to hit the deadlines, you have to stay on budget, you have to earn that seat at the leadership table. But you have to really go about changing your group. And if being a commodity, it provides very little value most of the time, all you're known for is just the ability to do what people ask of you. You hit a deadline and not much more. Well, what you need to do is transform yourself into a critical asset and critical assets are about ideas, not deadlines, because whenever all you do is hit a deadline And as on somebody else's solution, you don't create any deep and lasting value for the organization. Because that's the thing that's going to start changing hearts and minds, is whenever people can see the value, they can see the work, they can see that things are better with that internal team. And also just because you're around all the time, and that by doing that, you start to kill off that myth, that external creative teams are more innovative. You have to be able to get to this place of really understanding that you have to be about ideas, as a person, as a team, as a leader. That's the first step is that if you want to start to really make a difference, understand that you have to position and you have to make your group about how do I demonstrate value. And so there's a few simple things that I've learned. The first is that you have to understand that in many cases, I feel like you have to create some sense of urgency because if you're an external team, an external No creative team or an external agency. What happens in that case, if you think about it, is that there is a constant underlying an implied threat. If we do bad work, if the client doesn't like what we do, we're going to get fired. Well, that keeps the knife sharp, it keeps you on edge, because there's this constant, unspoken threat that's out there, that we're going to take our money, and we're going to go someplace else. And so I think that you don't get that whenever you are working on a for an internal team, what you get is you get a whole bunch of people who have really been working for a little bit too long, and they've gotten a little too complacent. They don't have that sense of urgency, there isn't that threat, because the most and the biggest thing that could get affected would be their individual job. Or if they decided to do a big reorg maybe then the team would get affected. But it's one of those things where just the impact is different. So I think that's one of the first things to think about is how do you get more of that agency mindset? How do you create that sense of urgency See? How do you go through and get it so that people feel a little bit more uncomfortable, they're a little bit more on edge. And they feel like they have something to lose. Because fear can be a great motivator. It can be a great motivator of people. And it can be a great motivator of creativity. But I think that that's one of those things to think about is does your team have that same sense of urgency? Are they working with that same expeditious way that an agency might? So from there, I think that some part of it is also thinking about? How do you present your work? We spent three shows talking about this. But one of the simple things that I've done is that in many cases, I'll take the exact same team. And one day they would go in, present a single idea and ask what was wrong? Well, the next day instead, have them go in and have them present multiple ideas, multiple different ways of solving that problem. And instead of just asking what's wrong, asked to have a conversation about what are these three ideas tell the story, go back and listen to the three episodes on presentation skills, follow all of that stuff. Tell him a story. But by doing that, you start to bring the client in, and the same team suddenly gets so much smarter, same people, same projects, nothing has really changed. But all it is, is just the way that they're presenting their work has changed, and that they make it a conversation. And I think that the other thing to do, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, is that if you're going to demonstrate value, you have to make sure that you're getting a problem that allows you to do that. Because the thing that I've seen time after time is the other big place or internal teams fall down, is that they are that commodity and they get problems, briefs, challenges that continue to make them a commodity, because what the brief is, is the brief isn't a problem that needs to get solved. Instead, it's a solution that needs to be vetted. It's a product owner or a journey owner or a leader in the business, who knows where it is that they already want to go and all that they want to do is to lead the witness and to get that solution and market Well, the reality is, that's not the way things work, you need to be able to take the time to do the research to do the thinking to be open to the possibilities of what are these things going? What are the different solutions that we could come up with and not go into it with that solution already decided. So I think some of it is from a leadership standpoint, from a team standpoint, or even from an individual standpoint, to make sure that those are the problems that you're getting. And that those are the things that you're going to really go in and start to try to solve. Because so much of what you need to do is you go from being that commodity to being that critical asset is that it's not just changing the way somebody behaves. This is one of the tenants of leadership that I really believe in, is that if you want to bring about change, or if you want to be successful, what I need to do is I need to change the thinking of the people around me not just simply their behavior, because if all I do is just change their behavior, then it's new behavior that's still on old thinking. So it's still the same outcome. That doesn't work, and it doesn't make In a sense, so what you need to do is to think about as part of this positioning, how do you change that thinking? How do you change the way people think about you? How do you change the way you think about yourself, so that you are viewed as being more of that critical asset. And I think that that really is sort of the foundation of where you start with a lot of this stuff. But I think there's a little bit more that goes into needing to make that change. And I think that's making a bit of a change in your mindset. And the way that you think about how do you solve the problems that you're being given, because one of the other big mistakes that I see are people who go in and they build pitches, they build presentations, as opposed to building products and building brands. Because I think that's another one of the big changes another one of the big thinking differences that you have to be aware of, because if you come from an external creative team, an external agency or anything like that, well used to building pitches using text Coming in, you want to win the business, you want to be able to wow them, you want to be able to dazzle them with this great new thinking that you have. But there's always a little bit of a challenge with that. And it's one of the frustrations that you'll often see with client side creative teams is that when they see that work, it always looks good. It's always very impressive, but very, very rarely is it built on the actual constraints that you would probably need to go through to get it launched internally. It's not gonna work on the particular tech system, it doesn't really adhere to the brand, so often it breaks or takes liberties with the rules. Because the challenges whenever you're on the client side, is that that pitch process is very different. Because what you need to do instead of pitching is socializing, and that to be able to socialize it. That means a few different things. One is it means that I need to go around and I need to be able to get everybody bought into this idea. I need to show them Whereas they're part of it, where do they fit in. But it also can be something that it can be impressive, it can look good. And it can be thinking that is further out than where we are right now. But it can't be so far gone, that it's never going to get built. It can't be something that looks really good. But we don't have the technology or we don't have the capacity to get it done. So it's one of those things where you have to make sure that the work you're doing is based in some reality. It's not that the thought that innovative thinking isn't important. But you you're there to build something, you're there to be able to invest in the brand, you're there to be able to build a product, you're there to be able to do something like that. So it's a bit less of a pitch and a bit more of a vision. And I think that the other thing that I've learned is that, well, how do we make this vision? How do we socialize it, but how do we not make it so safe? How do we not make it so small, that it doesn't actually have any impact? Because this is one of the challenges whenever you try to bring designing creativity client side is that at an ad agency or even just as an individual creative person, you're very used to jumping off the cliff, you take that challenge and you're going to build your wings on the way down. You're very comfortable with being uncomfortable. And that you know that you'll find the solution before you kind of wily coyote into the bottom of that Canyon. Well, that level of risk, that ability to create without necessarily understanding where the end point is, well, that's not a skill or it's not a confidence that a lot of other people share. They like knowing where they're going before they leave. They like knowing if it's going to work out or not. And so this concept of we're gonna make this big jump, make this big change. What often inspires a lot of nerves and inspires a lot of people suddenly being very uncomfortable or unsure. Whenever that goes wrong. It expresses itself in the idea of me being made smaller and safer. It's neuter down to something that's more palatable and much closer to something that we've already done. Because then well, then there's a metric, then there's some research, then there's something that we can point to that makes us feel okay with making this change. How do we combine these two different needs, the needs to do great work and to be innovative, but also then the need of being able to progress in a way that lets people understand where it is that we're going and see some proof along the way. So maybe we're jumping off that cliff with one wing instead of none. And I think that whenever I really thought about this, the technique that I use that's been the most successful is that I want to really show them where we're going before we get there. I always will describe it as sort of like a Northstar concept. Because I need something that people can rally behind. I need something where they can see where we're going to go. But whenever I do that, I show them the big vision. I show them what it is that we want to do. But then I also show them what are the steps, the jumps that will take to get there. So instead of going out and boiling the ocean all at once, maybe we'll do it in 234, or five, six evolutions. And the reason why this is important, because if I don't do this, and there isn't that Northstar, every time the company or the team tries to make a jump, they could be swayed, it could be swayed by that year's budget. They can be swayed by external forces of what's going on in the market or with their consumers or different things like that. And again, it still gives you the room to be able to go in and shift these things around. But it keeps everybody pointed in the same direction. So that the experience we are building the idea that we're working towards what holds us together, and it really lines up to be something much more substantial. But by doing it in these jumps are these phases, well then that allows the business and the client or the product wherever it is to have that confidence that we're going to take on one particular part. We'll see how it does. And whenever it's successful, then we'll go on to the next part. And I've had to do this at Starwood, I've had to do it at Citi, I've had to do it with every company that I've been with when I've been on the client side. Because it's just the way you have to build up that confidence in that trust, the SPG app, it's one of the been voted one of the top 100 best apps in the world. It gets all kinds of awards, all kinds of things. That app started with me and two programmers On nights and weekends whenever apps first came out, doing the first proof of concept for that app, because people weren't really sure about that. And to be honest, before that, we actually got a little bit of money to prove that there was any revenue at all in mobile by doing a mobile website. So we did the mobile website, parlayed that into the simple app, the simple app found some success and then we started to build on it and build on it and build on it. But there was always a Northstar where we were going to go for that, but we had to be a little bit patient. We had to prove it to the company that that value was there, and let them have the time and see the results to know what we knew. And that took a little bit of time. And that sometimes you wish that it wouldn't. Sometimes that's frustrating. Sometimes you just wish you could do the big jump all at once. But it's understandable. There are millions, if not 10s, hundreds or even billions of dollars at stake here. big jumps can sometimes be scary. So whenever I do these visions, a lot of the time it's heavy on thinking on strategy, on concept. And it's usually very light on creative. That particular app we were talking about probably only had two or three actual screens that had been designed. But there may be were 20 slides that set up where we wanted to go with this what was the core thought that we wanted to put behind this work and it was going to drive it for years and be the thing that we really we're gonna hang our hat on and that that allowed us to keep consistency that allowed us to keep moving forward. And that that really became what made all the difference. Because without that, well, we could have wandered all over the place. Whenever the Great Recession had happened, we could have walked away from that to do something much more reactive. But in that case, we had a Northstar and something that we had really kind of invested in. So I will tell you to do it that way. Don't go for the tempting shock and awe big pretty sizzle video and all that stuff. Because yes, it's impressive. And yes, it makes, you know, a nice presentation or something for a conference or something like that. But ultimately, what you want is something that's gonna go out the door, you want a product that people can put their hands on and care about. So I think that that really is what you want to do is to be able to put that sort of a concept out there, and then build towards it and how big those jumps are, really will depend on how much trust you have. How much have you paid into being that critical asset so the jumps may be small at the beginning. You're still a bit more on the commodity side. But over time, they will continue to become bigger and bigger as you find that success. And I think that the other thing that I found that really became important, whenever I went to the client side was that so often whenever I was on the agency side, it was about going in pitching something to our client. It was about being insightful. And it was about being right, that we really understood something that they didn't, we had an insight that they didn't, that there was something about that, that we were a little bit smarter and a little bit, just a little bit. I guess we were just more arrogant or a little more self important than we needed to be. And I think that you have to get rid of this when you come to the client side. And I think honestly, if it's successful anywhere, you have to get rid of it. I think it's just it tends to be tolerated a bit more on the agency or on the independent side because they just they like The Gunslinger mentality a bit more. But if you want to be successful on the client side, it really becomes about being part of a team And it's has to be just so much more substantial. I think that because to be successful, you need allies, you have to build consensus, you need to be able to get to a place where it's not just you fighting for a particular idea. But it's an entire department or something, an entire team that really all believes in something. Because I think that's really the challenge for so much of this is that it's why I take the time to socialize ideas, and I try to do it early enough. And I try to keep it open enough that people can feel like they're a part of it, that they can have a say in it, but not so early, that it really can become destructive or derailed, because the other reality is is that ideas are really fragile things and then get killed or neutered really, really easily. This is one of those things where you need to think about how can you work with other people I've seen too many people fall into that trap of do what I say because I'm in charge and it's That arrogance that I think never pays out. Because creativity, no matter where it happens is a team sport. And that you need other people to help support that to help support your idea to be some of the people that believe in things when maybe you don't have that much support there. So it's one of those things where it's just, it is incredibly important to be able to go out to work with other people to build consensus, to be able to do all of that so that the ideas have legs and the staying power. And it's something that we'll see the light of day because that's the ultimate thing that for me makes the difference is that there are plenty of places where people can go, you can put together, I don't know what a screenshot, a concept, pitch work, whatever it is, and that's great. But the reality is, is that that's not terribly hard to do. The hard part is getting this stuff to go out the door, because that's what so much of this really is about is that if you want to be successful on the client side It's the recognition that in many cases, there are plenty of good ideas laying around. What there aren't, is there aren't people that can build consensus, there aren't people that can put a vision out there that everybody can rally behind. There aren't people that have the skills and the determination to let those ideas see the light of day, and let them see the light of day in a form that still really works. That still really looks good, that hasn't been made small and safe, and just really boiled down to the place where they just honestly don't work that well anymore. Because that's what the biggest challenge so often on client side, creativity is, is just getting out of your own way long enough to find and let people see the value of design long enough to do it long enough to find that success. So that you can then start to build that power because that's the thing for me why I've stayed on client side is because for me, and I know that it's an oversimplified statement, but the ability to go in and build a brand or build a product has been so much more of a significant challenge and so much more of a satisfying challenge than just building an ad for a brand. That that's what's kept me there. Because I can invest in something I can love on it, I can grow it, I can get the people around me to seeing what it is that I'm doing and to invest and believe in what it is that I'm doing. Because that was always my challenge whenever I was on the agency side or when whenever I was outside of those walls, is because what the agency there was always that unspoken threat that you could get fired. But the inverse of that was there was also always this unspoken understanding that you were transient, because you could get fired. Well, when you go client side that goes away, because now you're part of this, you're slashed onto the rocket and going for the ride. But the thing with that is you don't want to lose the agency mindset. You don't lose the hunger you don't let that that sharpness come off the knife. Because it can happen, you can easily start to become accustomed to the excuses. You can listen to the people who will tell you time in and time out why things have been tried that way before and why they didn't work. They'll tell you why you're crazy. They'll tell you all of these different things, and make up all these different excuses. Because that's so much of the other fork in the road that you get to hit. That can be challenging, but I think you can make all the difference is that you can in a very, very clear way, take one or two roads, because what you can either do is you can buy into those excuses. You can say, you know what, it's always been that way. It always will be that way. And you know what, you're right. It won't change. So let's just leave it the way it is. Or you can choose the other path. And say that just because it's been that way doesn't mean that it has to keep being that way. It's the harder path. More people will honestly be able to make fun of you for it, because that path requires you to take a stance that path requires you to stand for something. And so many times as I've seen it on the client side, there aren't a whole lot of people that do that. There are a lot of people that float around, they believe what everybody else believes. Because it's easier, it's safer. It's nicer, I go along with the flow. I'm one of the guys. But the problem with that is that whenever I stand for nothing like that, nothing really happens. But when I do believe in something, whenever I choose the harder road, I choose the road that I want to make something actually different. Well, you plant your flag, and you stop floating around, and people now can take potshots at you, and they can judge you for it. And that's hard. And it's hard to be able to do that. And that I think this is so often where people fall down. It's where that challenge is, is because this is that moment, where do I really want to dig in and do this, or do I just want to go back to floating around and make it easier. And here's the thing that I'll tell you and this will really just kind of be my big Thought for this is that it is hard. It's hard to be able to put these sort of visions together, it's hard to take the days weeks, in some cases, months of time to socialize them to get the backing and to get the support that you need. But the reality is, is that if you can do it, the thing that you'll find is probably for me, the people who vilified me for being crazy for the first year, year and a half, maybe even two years. I was crazy. I was trying to change things that they'd been that way forever. That's never, that's never gonna change. He's just crazy for doing that. Well, the funny thing is, whenever I stuck to it, and I stuck to my guns, and I kept working at it, and I found some success, something really funny happened. Because those people who vilified me for being crazy and we're trying to give up on me for it, when all of a sudden they were trying to seek me out. They wanted me to come work on their projects, because they wanted some of that crazy. They didn't understand how they could bring about that change, but I was the one who's willing To stick to it and do it, because this is the thing is that people will rally behind you, if you are the first one to go run up that hill. In some cases, you have to be the first one to run up the hill and get shot. Not killed shot. Huge, huge difference. That's why I said there's trust me, there's a big difference between crazy and stupid. But if you're the first one to try, and if you're the one who will keep running up that hill and keep trying, it's amazing how it suddenly becomes like that scene from Braveheart, where Mel Gibson goes over the hill, and then all of a sudden, everybody comes pouring after him because the first person walk their talk, the first person did it, tried it, prove that it was possible and prove that the sun was still going to come up tomorrow. The business was going to keep going. And then together, we could all make a difference. But it's hard. And it's challenging. And I think that's the part where so many people get so frustrated with creativity is because and that's what we talked about through this whole thing, right? It's because Design isn't the heart of the house. So you have to fight for it differently, you have to position it differently. You have to focus on something different. And to be able to be the person that is really going to be able to help socialize that vision and make a jumping off that cliff. Okay? Sometimes you do it through reassurance, sometimes you just grab them, and it's pure, shocking, all you're going with me. But in either case, it's finding a way to make it happen. And sometimes it takes a few different ways until you do it. But at the end, the ability to build something, the ability to really grow something, to change the thinking of a company, to change the thinking of a team to be able to bring real creativity into places where it hasn't been before. Well, that's that's the thing I've built my career on, because it's just this intoxicating mix of showing people something that they didn't know they could do. There was an example that I had very recently and it's one of the reasons why I know this will work because I went through a leadership training course at Citi and it was fun People all over the company from tons of different places. And we talked about leadership, we talked about all the things that we talked about here. And at the end of it, this man in a very, very nice, very well Tailored Suit came over to me, as I stood there in my usual attire of Converse jeans and T shirt. And he grabbed me on each of my arms, and he looked up at me. And he said, I've been I've been at this bank for 30 years. And he said that entire time I've never seen anybody like you. I've never seen anybody who thinks like you. I've never seen anybody who talks like you. And at this point, I wasn't sure where this was going to go. I wasn't sure if this was going to end well, or if it was going to end badly. But where he ended is where we'll end today. Because what he did is he looked at me and he said, You know what, we need more people like you no matter what you do, don't let this place get to you. Keep fighting against it. And please, please don't ever change. It's one of those cases. Like I said, if you do these sorts of things, and if you can build It can be something that is a tremendously satisfying experience. But it requires you to do these steps and to fight so that it doesn't become the commoditized frustrating experience that so many people have. With that, as usual, let me know if you have any thoughts. I'm always curious when I talk about this stuff. What do people think about it? You can always shoot me an email, shoot it over to ask at Stephen Gates calm Steven is STP h n. As always, I'll ask if you enjoy the show. The only payment I'll ever ask for is to leave a review, head over to iTunes or whatever the platform is that you listened to the show on. Take a few seconds and just click on the stars if you're feeling a little bit more talkative, go ahead and leave a review because it really does make a difference. It brings more people to the show and it helps get the message out. Which is why I go through and do all this that and apparently I have some sort of an allergic reaction to free time. In either case, if you want to get all the information I talked about on this episode, or in any other episodes, you can head over to podcast Stephen Gates calm All the other episodes are housed over there, you can listen to them online. And with each of those episodes, we have show notes so that you don't have to scribble furiously, everything that I'm talking about here because I know every once in a while I'm prone to ramble on a little bit faster than I probably should. As always, the boys down and legal want me to remind you that everything I talked about here, and all these views are my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. They have nothing to do with any of this. And finally, I say it every time because I muted every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only luxury we have. And I'm always incredibly humbled that you want to spend any of it listening to what I have to say. Until next time, and as always, stay crazy