Ep 2 Leadership: Common obstacles and 7 steps to becoming a better leader

In this episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates addresses the pressing need for effective creative leadership in today’s organizations. While companies crave innovative leaders, many lack the strategies to nurture and develop them. Stephen dives into the most prevalent challenges faced by aspiring leaders and outlines a clear, actionable roadmap consisting of seven key steps to enhance your leadership skills. Join us as we explore how to break through these barriers, empowering you to lead with confidence and creativity in your organization.

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Stephen Gates : 0:00

Ladies and gentlemen, children who are well who are old enough to figure out how to subscribe to a podcast, welcome to the second episode of The Crazy One podcast. And I got to tell you, I'm in a really good mood today. This is an episode that I've been really excited about. It's something that I've been wanting to do. I'm so excited about it actually, that I'm going to break this episode up into two different parts. And the reason why we're going to do that is because today we're going to talk about leadership. And there's probably nothing that I love doing more and probably nothing that I've kind of become known for, then the ability to teach and to actually bring leadership into organizations. I've done it in ad agencies whenever I was the guy who had the old school design background, but could sit with the new school digital guys and figure out how to build that bridge to go into an old guard hotel company and trying to figure out how to bring digital into someplace like that, or currently how to come into a 200 year old bank and bring design into an institution like that. So I'm somebody that not only knows a lot about Leadership but has actually done it. And so here's the thing, right? We talked about this in the last episode, why is leadership important? And the reason why is because I think in a lot of cases, the reality is that you can only go so far, if all you're wanting to do is to be able to execute to do the thing that probably brought you into your profession. Because the reality is, the more creative you get, the better your ideas are, the more you're sought out to be that essential part of an organization, the more you're looked at, to be a leader. Well, here's the thing, and here's a little bit of the rough, what's gonna make you really good at being that execute is one set of skills. But what's gonna make you be a really good leader? Totally different set of skills? And how do you understand that because if they're two totally different sets of skills, and it's not something that everybody does naturally, how do you know how to do it? And so this is why I've traveled all over the world. I was spoken to 10s of thousands of people about leadership. And so here's the thing, right? Whenever I go and I do these sessions, the egotistical part of me the part that thinks that the world needs another podcast is always really happy to see that these sessions sell out all the time, they are standing room only. But at the same time, while my ego may love that, the part of me that does this that wants to be able to teach, you know what honestly gets kind of sad and more than a little pissed off, because the reason why is because it demonstrates to me how much companies teams creatives, everybody needs leadership, that it's something that is a discipline that is a craft that people don't understand. And then all these people are showing up because they're searching for something. And what they're searching for is really been brought about by the fact that there has just been a flat out systemic failure across ad agencies, companies, big companies small to understand how to lead people to to grow a career to give them a career path that will lead them to things like innovation to homegrown leadership, to be able to take the people that are on your team today. And to actually do something different with it, like one of the things that I've come to realize is that, you know, the stuff that I'm the proudest of will never show up in my portfolio. Because the reason why is because the stuff that I'm the proudest of are the people that I've helped change their careers, I've helped turn them into leaders, I've helped get them to a place where they became more than even they thought they might be able to be. That is incredibly powerful. And I think that's why I love talking about this because I think that, you know, for me, like one of the greatest success things that I always love is that the day that I walked in the star with the three people that led the three different disciplines that I had on my design team were the exact same people that I had the day that I left. The only difference was whenever I got there. This was an overlooked creative team. That was basically a production resource that nobody really believed in. The day that I left was we had been in nine Apple keynotes and currently had the work that we done was running Global in an apple commercial, exact same people, it was not that I did all this by kind of bringing in a whole bunch of different people. It was that I invested in these people and believed in them. But that's it. This isn't some fairy tale about how I've always been a great leader. This is this is me, telling you a lot of the things that I've had to learn the hard way that I've had to fail that that there are all these times and even as I'm standing here doing this recording, I can think about whenever I go back into work, what are the ways that I wish I was a better leader? What are the things that I'm letting people down? What are the things that I'm doing? So I just want to say like, Look, this isn't a fairy tale. This is actually drawn from real experience for me of really doing this stuff and getting it right some getting it wrong, some but really kind of having an understanding that comes out of that. So we're going to split this up into two parts. The part that we're going to talk about right now for this episode, is how to make you as a person a better leader because I think, just like with creativity, the change here and the the foundation This has to come from you. Because if you aren't clear on who you are, if you aren't clear on a bunch of different things, there's no way you're going to be able to be clear and lead other people. So we're going to start with that we're going to start with just you. And then what we're going to do from there in the next episode is, then we're going to take some of this stuff that once we have you straight, we're gonna figure out how do we then start to apply this to a team? How do we start to go out there and say that, okay, if I'm going to come into an organization, as a leader, if I'm going to lead other people, how do I do that? And how do I do it well, and to be able to do it in a place where they put some wins on the board that lets you bring about real change, because I think that's the thing for me, right? This is not talk about people who just want to manage things if all you want to do is to come in and take what everybody tells you and go from point A to point B and that's all that you want from your life. Do me a favor, shut this off now and subscribe because this isn't going to be I'm not going to be the guy for you, right? Because that's not what I signed up for. I kind of I signed up to come into organizations and make a difference. I come in to try to do things differently. And I think that I've had well a pretty good track record of doing it. And I think it's one of the few things where I'll give myself that egotistical moment to say that I'm pretty good at it. Let's just jump right in. And so if you're going to be a leader, the first thing that you need to understand is that there are two key things that anybody in any organization, any discipline, any, no matter what any anything want. And that is if you're going to be in charge of people, those people are going to want two things out of you. And what those two things are going to be is that one, they want to know that the work that they're going to do tomorrow is going to be better than the work they do today. They want to know that they're going to grow, they're going to improve that it's going to get better, because if not people inherently get bored, because it's just simply doing the same thing over and over again. And I think that that's just no matter what the discipline is, that that's something that people want. They want to feel like they're doing something new, there's an endorphin hit, you get out of doing something new. So people want that. The other thing that they want is very basic, but oftentimes very hard to do. And that is the case that whenever it hits the fan, whenever something really goes wrong, whatever There's a place where you could throw them under the bus that you don't, and that you have their back and that you're there to be able to support them. That is the other thing that most people really want to know is that their boss is somebody who's just simply there to be their boss, but it's somebody who will actually partner with them as you go through this journey. And I think especially whenever you look at the fact that you do something creative, and we're coming off to talk about creativity, where everything is unique and different, right, like creative is subjective. Creative is up for debate. Creative is something where it's a process where things are supposed to go wrong. And we're actually if they aren't going wrong, you're probably not doing it right. So in that case, the leadership challenge becomes even harder. And it becomes even harder Still, if you want to do something that's innovative, where you're actually going to ask people to change to do something different. These are all real challenges that you're going to face. And so just like with the last talk, whenever we talked about creativity, I think the other thing that you're gonna find with leadership, is it here again, unfortunately, there is no magic bullet. Everybody I know who's a great leader doesn't differently, the same way that I know every creative that I know, has ideas differently, very much for the same reason. Because I think that just like with your creative process, the things that you do well, your confidence is the things that you're a little uncertain about the things that you think are a weakness of yours all play into your leadership style. But the the good news here is that I think that it's something that we can work on. And so I think that kind of before we jump into kind of like specific things to work on. I wanted to talk about what are just some of the common obstacles to leadership, just so that you can have those as guardrails, something to keep in mind about as whenever you go to try to approach this. What are some of the things that you may run up against? Or what are some of the challenges that you're going to need to solve for as you start to put these pieces together as you think about how can you get better as somebody that wants to make a difference? And I think that the first thing that a lot of people may be aware of it but may not be conscious of it, his perspective and what I mean by perspective is If you're going to come in and lead a group of people lead an organization lead anything, you have to be able to do this interesting trick, where you need to be somebody who can be an insider, and an outsider at exactly the same time. To be an insider, it's somebody that the team has to buy in, they have to believe they have to know that I have their back. But they also have to know that I'm genuinely invested and working with them on whatever it is we're trying to solve. So that I need to be in the weeds. I need to be working on things I need to know what people do well, I need to know what they don't do. Well, I need to be an insider to the team, I need to be one of them. But at the same time to be effective. If all you ever are as an insider, you can't see the forest for the trees because all you do is you just run from one problem to the next without ever having a longer term vision. So you have to be an outsider, because you need to be somebody who can take the long view of the team. You need somebody who can see, where do we need to go politically? Where do we need to position ourselves strategically? Where do we need to position this group? So it's this sort of like flip of perspective between inside and outside is a funny trick that you're going to need to be able to kind of master. And the other one really dovetails into what I was just talking about. Whenever you're solving problems, progress becomes a real problem. Because from a leadership perspective, it's easy to get in the weeds, it's easy to be in there and solving little problems for people. But the problem is that if that's all you're doing, you're not making that much progress. Because the small problems are easy to solve. They can get small, faster, it, it's a great little kind of hit to feel like you got something done. But the problem is that you aren't solving the big problems, because all those little ones are getting in the way of solving what's the real issue, and what's the real problem here. So I think you have to be able to take a step back. And again, be that outsider if you want to make progress. One of the biggest things that I also see is fear. And I've seen this, you know, it's probably the biggest reason why I left the ad agency world is because so often I would come in and I would have a really great idea and I pitched it to him. And this was a client who had talked to me all about how they were all about innovation. They were all about doing something different, right? They were all about all these things right up until the moment where it meant that they had to do something different. That's where fear comes in. And it's the same thing, whether it's leading an advertising account, or whether it's leading a team of team of people to do anything, is because people are afraid of change. Change makes people uncomfortable. And people don't like to be uncomfortable people inherently they like routines, they like to know what they're getting into. that uncertainty isn't good for a lot of people. And I think that it also then feeds into this fear that most people honestly are afraid to speak up out of fear. Because they feel like if they do something different, if they go against the grain, things are going to end well for them. I saw a study not too long ago that said 85% of employees 85% said that they do not feel comfortable speaking up at work. So from a leadership perspective, if only 15% of the people who work for you will actually tell you the truth. What is the chance You have actually been successful. And so I think that this is a huge part of it is this fear of getting people to be okay with doing something different. The other part that comes with that, and this is something that I see whenever I come in and inherit teams that have already worked together, that they've had leaders in the past, they've had other people who come in and do things. And so those people, whenever they come in, have built up the team with a pretty decent sized amount of utility. The utility really comes out of the fact that they've seen people come in before they've seen people say the right things they've seen people tried to do this. But at the end of the day, that person came and went, and nothing changed. Because whenever it got hard, all of a sudden, that leader backed away, whenever it got hard, that person didn't do anything. So they become incredibly skeptical. They really want to sit back and see, are you going to be able to kind of do anything different? Are you going to be somebody who can actually do something, so overcoming that futility can be a really big issue. And the last one, which for me, I think historically has been easily the most frustrating and the most heartbreaking, has been comfort. And that this is the comfort is honestly as sort of a sister or a cousin to fear. And what it is, is that at the end of the day, so many people will choose to be comfortable over being great. And it's that trade off right that we will actually let fear win, we will let it affect us to the point where we will pass on doing something new, we will pass on greatness, just to be comfortable. And if you're a team that wants to change things, if you're a team that wants to do something different, having that complacency and that comfort is poison. It is something that you just simply cannot have. And so how do you get people to be comfortable with being uncomfortable with the fact that we're going to ask them to do something new and to do it on a very regular basis, and that they need to get over that sense of comfort. That's just kind of like an outline of What are the big challenges that whenever you go into leadership, you just need to be aware of Don't let them stop you don't let them block you. But just be it's something that you can just be aware of them. And the reason why I say that is because I mean, for me, I really do believe that there is no secret to being a great leader. I really think that great leadership is made that it's not born. And I think I only have to look as far as my own career, to really think that that's the case because there are tons of things that I do in a leadership role that I used to suck at, because like, honestly, whenever I was in college, I couldn't speak in front of a group of probably more than four or five people without being absolutely petrified. That to be somebody who could stand up on a stage in front of thousands of people is something that I've had to learn to be somebody who is able to move past their own creative process, to be able to understand the process of other people is something that I had to learn to be somebody who could understand the politics, the strategies and the dynamics of an organization to be able to bring the social engineering that You need to be able to craft the belief that you need to put into a team to be a successful leader is something that I had to learn. And I think that the best example of this that I'll always point out to people is whenever you ask somebody like, Who do you think the best leaders of the last century, then? inevitably, if not the number one answer often in the top three, definitely in the top five will come Steve Jobs. And the interesting thing for me is that I've been incredibly humbled over my time to have been able to sit down and talk with or work with a lot of people that worked with Steve Jobs. And one of the most interesting ones that I had a conversation with with Steve Wozniak, who co founded Apple with Steve, and the thing that was will tell you is that Steve needed to get fired from Apple. That Yes, he was a great visionary. Yes, he was the guy that got it off the ground. He was the charisma he was the drive. He was the vision, but he was not the leader. That that company was not going to get to where it is today. If he wouldn't have been fired that Steve needed to go off. He needed To start next, he needed to eat a little bit of Crow and come back. It was only whenever Steve came back, then the legend of Steve Jobs was born. And so it really is one of those cases where even somebody who is regarded as such a Titan of leadership is somebody that had to go off and learn a lot of things about this. So I think that's why I said about the guardrails and some of these other things. I think this is what trips a lot of people up right is because it doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel like something that comes naturally to a lot of people. But I think the reality is, is that that's often the case. In a lot of cases, it's just simply the people who are able to push past that to overcome it. This is why, though often you'll see people who are in leadership positions, who often probably shouldn't be because they aren't really that bright. But oftentimes, they're able to push through that and simply they're willing to put themselves out there in that leadership position. So the trick is to be able to push through it, but to actually have something to say whenever you kind of get through that and you get put in that position. So that's the thing that I think I want to try to dig in on and try to help with a little bit. So where do you start? You're going through this is something that you want to get better at. You're you're aware of kind of what are these things that are working against you? So where do you start on on trying to be a better leader. And I think that for me, I've probably narrowed it down to seven critical characteristics, critical aspects that I think need to go into being a better leader. So these are the things that if you're going to go into work tomorrow, if you focus on these things, you're going to become a better leader, your team is going to get better, you're going to make more of a difference. And so the first one is honestly just to focus on the most simple thing, focus on the fundamentals. And so one of the things that I've done in studying leadership is that I've gone out and I've talked to a lot of really interesting people. I've talked to venture capitalists, I've talked to sports agents, I've talked to athletes, I've talked to chefs and coaches and a whole bunch of other things. And one of the places I come back to often is sports psychology. And whenever you hear a coach, talk about a team that's doing really Well, one of the things you'll often hear them talk about is how they're focusing on the fundamentals. And I think that this really is a key part of leadership is to understand that no matter what your team does, you have to have an obsessive focus on getting the fundamentals right. I think oftentimes, whenever I come in to a team, that that's one of the first things that I want to focus on, is to make sure that they're really getting the fundamentals right, that the basics that the way that we're going about things, the process that we're using, is getting done, right. Because if we have a bad foundation to build on, if we aren't doing the fundamentals, right, the more complicated stuff isn't gonna work. So I think that that's the first thing is just like, make sure you're really getting your fundamentals right. The next one is one that I think sounds incredibly easy to say. Well, that's actually the point of it is, is that things are incredibly easy to say. But the second one, honestly, for me is to walk your talk, because I think this is a place where I see so many leaders break down because you're put in front of a whole bunch of people, you know, what they want to hear, you know, the things that are going to make them happy, you know the things that they're going to respond to? Well, saying those things isn't terribly hard, right? Like, if you spend any time with them, you can make a quick list out of that and understand where you need to go. The problem from a leadership standpoint is to be consistent is to execute is to deliver, and not just deliver in the easy moments, right? I think the easy moments of leadership anybody can do, where great leadership is really defined, where a great leadership is differentiated, is in the tough moments is in the hard moments. And whenever you need to go in and you need to tell them what they don't want to hear, you need to tell them the thing that's getting screwed up, you need to go in and to be the person that's going to be able to take that stand. And I think that to be able to do that. You have to be able to be consistent, you have to set that standard, and then actually follow it because people are smart. If you talk about doing things one way and then you go off and do it a totally different way people notice and that they start to lose faith in you. And I think that's what so much of leadership is About is walking your talk is developing that faith and being consistent and things. And so this isn't something that it's easy to point to an example there's not a trick, there's not a, an easy thing to do. But I think for me, a big part of I think why a lot of people respect me from a leadership position is a lot of times, I'm the guy who will say the thing that everybody else was thinking, and I'm the guy who will go and have the hard conversation. Even if it's not easy, even if it's not something that I want to do that I try to carry myself. And I try to do it all with consistency, and in a way that people can respect. Like, I'm a huge believer in put the shoe on the other foot. So if the roles were reversed, and I was sitting in their shoes, and they were sitting in mind, how would I want somebody to treat me? And at the end of the day for me and a lot of cases while there may be a sting, in honesty, well, the reality is, is that that's what I really want. That's what I would have respected at the end of the day, instead of somebody that was just gonna Feed me a line, you know, just glad Hand me and tell me what they thought I wanted to hear, and then go off and do something totally different or do it behind my back. Right. So I think that that's to me is the importance of really knowing kind of how to walk your talk. The third part of it for me really starts to again, continue to continue the theme of honesty, but also add a little bit of vulnerability. Because I think that one of the things for me is the fact that I like to externalize certain parts of my leadership process I like to share with the team, what it is that I'm struggling with, what are the things that I'm trying to overcome, that there's a recognition that from a leadership standpoint, I am not going to buy into, or feed into this notion that leadership is one person, because it's not an organization of any size, whether you're two people or 100. If all that everyone is doing is looking to that one single person to make the decisions, that one single person to be the leader, that one single person to do everything, the team is going to fall down. And so for me, it's about having having the confidence and the security to take some of the things that I don't know the answers to, and open that up to let the team in to let them have the chance to go on that journey with me. Because here again, if we're all invested in this together, that's something that I need to do. And so part of it has just been externalizing my leadership process, so that in certain cases, we can go through and solve these challenges, right. And I think this goes back to that fine line of perspective of you need to know what are the points whenever I need to let people in? What are the points where we need to make these decisions together? But what are the points where I need to be an outsider? What are the points whenever I need to point away what are the points where I need to be the one that has the vision to drive the group, because something like comfort or fear are going to hold people back from really making the decision that they want. And this is a really kind of interesting and intricate dance is to know when and where to be able to do this. But because ultimately, the reason why you want to externalize your process is that people will support what they've been a part of it If all that I'm doing constantly across the board is dictating to them telling them what they need to do, they aren't a part of that they're simply a recipient of it. Whereas if I'm letting them in, and in certain places, I'm letting them be a part of this process, so that everyone is invested in this and everyone is believing in this, that's a process that's going to get adopted much more quickly. It's something that people are gonna fight for much more passionately, because they can see themselves in it, they know that they were a part of it in terms of doing it. So I think this is an incredibly important part of building that belief and building some of that culture up to do this. And I think that the other part of this, you know, really, we'll continue to revisit a lot of the same themes, but part of what it is are in those moments where you need to be an outsider in those moments where you want to try to do something different. You need to understand that not everybody loves somebody who wants to be a leader, because of the fear, the comfort, the the the you know, the fact that they don't want to do things differently. And I think this is something that it took me a little bit of a while to get used to it to the point where honestly, I've just come to embrace it and kind of love it really Because of the fact that if I'm going to try to do something different, if I'm going to push people outside of their comfort zone, some people will naturally take to it right? Like those are your fast followers, your great allies, they're the ones who get what it is that you're trying to do. The problem is going to be the other people, the people who just really want to kind of stay where they're at and do what they want to do. Those are the people who are not going to be your cheerleaders, they are not going to help you, if anything, they're probably going to try to like cut your legs out from underneath you. And if you're going to come into an organization of any size, and try to do things differently, you have to be prepared that this is going to happen. You have to be able to put some wins on the board you have to be stronger than this trend. You have to be stronger than their fear and their excuses. And I think that this can be a really difficult thing because it can feel very isolating. It can feel very challenging. I know that this is something that I struggle with. This was another part of why I had the words Here's to the crazy ones tattooed on my right arm that I talked about in the in the welcome episode because there are some days that I need that reassurance. I need that reminder because Some days when leadership just fucking sucks. And there is no way around it. And I don't know any other way to say it. Because there are some days when you don't get to have a bad day, there are some days when your team needs you, they need you to be strong, they need you to be focused, because if all of a sudden, something bad has happened, we're up against the challenge, we're up against something that's gonna be tough to overcome. And the person who's in charge goes to pot and all of a sudden, you know, they don't have a plan. They're pouting, they're, you know, going around throwing a temper tantrum, the entire team is gonna fall apart. So in that moment, you don't get to have a bad day. In that moment, you get to be the one who's gonna stand up and say, Look, we have a plan. You know, in that moment, and this is probably the best description of leadership that i think i've ever heard was one of my old mentors would describe leadership is you simply are the most confident, uncertain person. And I think that's really it is that I may not may not have all the answers, but I feel like I have enough of them. And I'm going to take responsibility and accountability for what we're going to do that I'm going to say. This is the The direction we're gonna go. And then I'm gonna deal with the consequences of what that means. But it is just preparing yourself that the movies that you see and all these other things that will lead you to believe and celebrate that process aren't always the case, right? Because I think that we've been told a whole lot of stories that celebrate the beginning in the end of this process. It celebrates the the two guys in a garage, and then it celebrates the multibillion dollar launch at the end, and it glosses over the 80% of work that's in the middle of overcoming the skeptics of overcoming the people who worked against you, and all of those things to get it done. But the reality is that if you want to make a difference, and if you want to make a difference as more than just talk, because this is my thing, right? Like whenever we talk about leadership, I travel all over the world. And I see a lot of people talk about this. And one of the things for me is that I also very quickly realize that what they're talking about is a theory for them. They have not done it, they don't know actually how to go through and do this. And that's the problem is because at the end of the day, we have to be able to kind of figure out out how to push past this to make this real change. And so one of the things I've tried to do is again to try to become a little bit more vulnerable, a little bit more open. And and so one of the things that I've adopted that I think works really well, is gonna be the fifth thing we talked about. And that's a very particular model for how to get feedback. How do I get feedback on how I'm doing? And how do I give feedback to other people? Because I think feedback can be a tricky thing, because here again, the fear of the comfort and a lot of cases, you know, again, go back to that stat, right, 85% of the people are afraid to speak up at work. So 85% of the conversations, I'm gonna have an 85% of the feedback I'm gonna get isn't going to be true. That may or may not actually kind of hold true across the board. But you know, for easy math will say that it is. So how do you come up with a feedback model that overcomes that? How do you try to get to the truth? And so what I do is I usually ask three very simple questions and what they are is what you really wish I would start doing, what do you wish I would stop doing and what do you want me to continue to do? And the reason why I think this works so well is because in many cases, it requires very specific answers, that it's not something you can just kind of like laugh off, you can't give a general statement to like these are things that demand you to actually be able to give me very specific things that you believe in, like, what are the things that you know what, whenever I think about this guy is my leader, I really wish he would do and would start doing this. At the same time. I really wish he would stop doing this. But you know what, there are a couple things that I think I really liked that he does, and I really wish he would continue to do that. And I think that this is the challenge is to get these sorts of things out of people and to have these very direct conversations with them to be able to get to this stuff. And then I think that also when you give feedback to people to have this similar sort of model, because I think it's this exchange that makes all the difference because the reality is, leadership is a constantly evolving problem. It doesn't stay the same. Because your team changes you change you grow as you go through life, the organization around You changes the market pressure that are put on your company changes. So leadership is a constantly evolving equation. It's not something that stays static. And so if you aren't able to constantly react to that and be able to kind of check in on where the team is, you're not going to be successful. And so I think that this is why for me, having a bit of this vulnerability asking this opinion, and even if it's something that I disagree with, that it's at least out in the open, that it's at least something that we can have a conversation around to be able to say, you know what, I know that you really wish that I would stop doing that. But I'm not going to and here's why. And that I can at least explain to them why it's something that I think is important, because maybe it's something that they don't like it, maybe it's something that the team really needs. Or maybe it's something that politically is going to put us in the right position, or that at least then it's out in the open because it's not something that's going to sit and fester under the surface where they're just going to kind of grumble and roll their eyes and go again, this guy doesn't walk his talk. He's just, he doesn't really kind of understand what's going on. And so this is the way to be able to have this sort of conversation. So I think, think about how you're going to have that feedback and get that sort of out to people. And so for the sixth thing, and and i think that whatever I've spent some time recently, where I was in between my last two jobs, where I was able to sit down and just kind of say, what have I learned? From a leadership standpoint, just from a career standpoint? What have I learned? What What do I know that I could tell other people? And I think that, you know, so often so many of these conversations, start with or the advice that people want from me starts with the work that I've done with Apple, and people come up, and they'll ask me, they say, Steve, you know, what's the secret to working with apple? And the funny part is, whenever I tell them, that wide eyed enthusiasm that seems to have drawn them to me of why they want to ask the question, so quickly melts away, because wherever they come from, they say, What's the secret? The thing that I always tell them is exactly the same. I always will say, have great ideas and work your ass off. And that always seems to be the answer that they weren't rooting for. That wasn't the answer that they wanted. They wanted some other answer. They wanted there to be a story. secret. And I think that that's the thing to me, right? Like, if you want to be successful in your career, if you definitely want to be successful as a leader, success is a choice. Success is something that you need to be prepared to do whatever it's going to take to make happen. Because this is the thing like from a leadership perspective, there are plenty of times when you could take the easy path, you could cave in and go with the conventional wisdom. There are plenty of times where you could take the easier way out, right? Those people aren't remembered. And those people don't change things. Those people are the ones who end up, you know, 10 or 15 years down the line looking back and saying why am I somebody who's only managing people and not making a difference? And you know, all the hopes and dreams that I have suddenly faded away, and I know that maybe an overly kind of Machiavellian view of the world. But I just I've traveled and around and talk to too many people who have asked me questions and have been in that situation, to not at least recognize the fact that that's the truth. And I just think that if you want to be a great leader, if you want to be a great anything Success is a choice. And you need to be willing to do what it takes to make that happen. You need to be willing to put in the work, you need to be willing to have the hard conversation, you need to be the one who's going to fight fear and comfort and complacency. And all those things were the road to mediocrity is paved with excuses to overcome it to do something great. And so this is the thing is, are you willing to do it? And I say this because I think people genuinely need to think about this before they take on some of these problems that they need to think about. Are they really ready to be able to do this? Because I think if you're going to step into it, and you're going to try to take this on, you have to be willing to make success a choice. You have to be willing to do that. Because too many people will do it half heartedly. And as soon as it gets hard, they want to step away. And so that's my thing, right is is to teach people that it is a choice and if it's a choice that you're willing to make, you know what, don't stick your toe in the pool, do a damn Cannonball into the other end and really try to do it and to try to go after it as hard as you can because i think that's that's why I'm where I am. Is because I've been willing to put in the work, I've been willing to prepare for an opportunity that I had no idea when it was coming to do all these other things, where it just really was going to lead to the fact that for me, I was not going to lead the outcome up to chance that at the end of the opportunity, what I was going to say to myself, is that you know, what, I don't know how this is going to turn out. But I wouldn't have done it any differently. I feel like I did everything that I possibly could to be able to get this outcome to happen. And so just write that down somewhere, think about it, that you need to be able to prepare to steel yourself against all these problems, to make success a choice. And finally, the last thing and probably the biggest thing is that I think you know what, to be able to do all of this, to be able to overcome all of this, to be the person who can be the leader that you want to be and to do it the way that you want to do it. You've got to embrace You're crazy. And I think this is something that I you know what it may sound like it's a marketing gimmick because I've got a tattoo and Gee, isn't that funny? And that's the name of this podcast and Gee, isn't that fun? But at the end of the day, for me, it really is something that cuts deeper than that, that for me, it really has become about embracing my crazy that it really has come about the fact that the way that I do things is different, the way that I go about solving problems, the way that I try to motivate people, the way that I try to do this stuff is different. And for a long time, those critics, the people that made leadership tough one, they were the people that tried to convince me that doing this was hard, that what I was doing was wrong, that doing things the way I wanted to do, it wasn't the way to do it that I just needed to give in to conventional wisdom in the status quo and to go along with it. And I'm sorry, but I'm one of these people that has gotten to the place where I've had enough success that I can stand here and tell you that those people are full of shit, that they aren't the people who understand how to actually change anything. Well, those are the people who understand how to maintain what's already been built. And that is not what leadership is about. And so for me to think about what are the things that make us special? What are the things that make us strong? What are the things that make us stand out from everybody else that draws people together that brings them together and gives you a platform to bring about this change that gives you a platform to be a leader. Because those are the things that you have to embrace. Those are your crazy. And those are the things that are going to ultimately make you successful. This is the opportunity. And it's the challenge, that these are the things that are incredibly personal. They're incredibly strong, but they're incredibly different for everybody. And this is why leadership, much like creativity is hard. It's why not everybody is good at it. It's why actually very, very few people are good at it. And even fewer people are good at teaching it because it's one of those things that very few people actually understand is that you've got to be crazy. You have to embrace it. Because at the end of the day, unless you want to just be like everybody else, you have to be different and you have to be okay being different. And this is something like I've said, I'm not up here to tell you a fairy tale. This was something that I struggled with for far longer than I'm proud of. This was something that I struggled with getting done To the point where I had to tattoo something physically on my body to remind myself not to do it again, because I was so angry and fed up with it. And so I think that's the end of this, right? That's the, that's the biggest piece of wisdom that I can lead you with, is the fact that you just have to embrace You're crazy. So we're gonna take a break here. And this is the two part show that I said. And so whenever we come back with the next piece, we're going to talk about now that you've, you're straight on, you're crazy now that you understand the challenges you have to overcome. Now that you understand what you need to do to make success a choice from a leadership standpoint, how do you start to apply that to a team, because I think it's all well and great if you get it straight in your own head. But communicating that out to a whole nother group of people and having that be effective is a totally different challenge. And so I think this is something where I've spent a lot of time really trying to kind of overcome that bridge and want to walk you through some of the things that I've learned. So as usual, you can find more episodes of this podcast you can find related articles and a whole bunch of other stuff over at podcast dot Stephen Gates, calm st ep HN. AND gates like Bill Gates comm if there's anything that you really feel like you want to talk about, if there's something here that resonated that you felt like was really good if there's something that you just feel like I didn't cover, if there's something you think I got totally wrong, I'd love to hear from you. And I think this is one of those things where I really want to try to make this a conversation. So shoot me an email, send it to ask at Stephen Gates COMM And I'm going to cover it in a future show, I'd really like to be able to get to the place where we can start to have a dialogue about this. If you have something to say shoot it on over the boys don't illegal always make me want to say that all the views that are here on my own, they don't represent my current or former employers. So this is me just out here ranting. And, as always, thanks for the time, right. I think that's the only thing that's truly a luxury is time and I definitely appreciate it. So thanks for listening, and until next time, stay crazy.