Too many people think "good" leaders or teammates have to be energetic extroverts while introverts as described as shy, anti-social, asking too many questions, or needing too much time to think. In this episode, we will find a new perspective and understanding of what introverts go through, why their way of work is really valuable, some tips for those of you who work with introverts, and some things introverts can do to find more support and understanding at work.
SHOW NOTES:
http://thecrazy1.com/episode87
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Too many people think "good" leaders or teammates have to be energetic extroverts while introverts as described as shy, anti-social, asking too many questions, or needing too much time to think. In this episode, we will find a new perspective and understanding of what introverts go through, why their way of work is really valuable, some tips for those of you who work with introverts, and some things introverts can do to find more support and understanding at work.
SHOW NOTES:
http://thecrazy1.com/episode87
FOLLOW THE CRAZY ONE:
Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook
What's going on everybody and welcome into the 87th episode of the crazy one podcast. As always, I'm your host Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about how you can become more creative, become a better leader create more innovative work, grow stronger career and a whole lot more. Now, be sure to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform to get the latest episodes whenever they come out. And while you're there, make sure you take just a second and leave a review. As always, you can listen to all the shows get the show notes, get all my sort of essential creative tools a bunch of crazy one propaganda and a whole lot more. Head over to the crazy one calm as always, it's sort of crazy and then number one.com and if you have any questions if you want to keep up with my adventures, or just get more content like this, you can always follow me on Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn. Now, man has been another one of those times when the pause between shows has just been longer than I would have liked. I have been on another one of these like ridiculous travel runs because tis the season for apparently everyone's design summit design conference creativity conference Innovation Center. Are workshop and whatever else in between. So I have been all over the United States, West Coast, been in Europe, all kinds of different things like that. But the good news is the podcasts are still easy to work on on planes. So more content in the works. But, you know, one of the things that's been really interesting is it you know, a lot of these show episodes I draw from, like the conversations I get to have with all these amazing people whenever I get to travel around the world and, and, you know, a really interesting topic has sort of emerged lately. I think it started in in a lot of the leadership talks I was doing, but it's really starting to come up more and more, which is really kind of the rise of the introverted design leader, and even just the rise of kind of the introverted creative and I think this has become a really interesting topic to me because for a long time, people seem to have thought that like quote unquote, good leaders or good team members were that is that it's like that that loud brash personality there. Those strong reverts. It's like, it's like so many other things. It's just, it's what we've seen in a few too many TV shows and movies and things like that. And I think especially whenever it comes to creativity, especially in age of social media, like all this sort of stuff that I've talked about so much, it's this really, honestly kind of like damaging stereotype for a lot of people because they don't work that way. And, and like I said, you know, in my travels, the last couple months, I've really noticed that rise in this trend and, and I think part of it is always always interesting because what I love about being able to talk to people what I love about doing this show is the ability to even rewire myself, right because I think even as I've been approached by like a lot of really kind of brave people who are trying to find ways to have their voice heard or to feel accepted in the world that mainly seems to value extroverts and that way of doing things. Now, this is something that I've got a little bit of experience with a little bit because It's in my personal life a little bit my career. But you know, because it's interesting because in many cases, I'll describe myself as like an introverted extrovert where I will have introverted tendencies like whenever, I don't know what whenever I go to a company event or something like just stand around making small talk drives me crazy, or my stage fright where I, you know, for years really hated to speak in front of audiences, which may sound completely crazy with what I do in my career now. But they're just sort of like a lot of these things that I've kind of had to overcome. But I think it's just there's there's got to be a different way to be able to do this. And I think as an industry, we're in this place where we need to be able to have a broader view of leadership styles of our team members create a broader understanding that there are so many different styles of working all of which we need, and I think we can do it because look, I mean, for so many of the companies I talk to you so many teams I work with, like we have infinite programs and training on communication style and leadership style and 360s and Like all the big fives, like all this other stuff, right? But I've never seen any training for how to work with other people with have other different personality styles. I think sometimes this will get lumped into communication style. And I'm not necessarily convinced that that's really what should be going on here. Right. And I think that this is an increasing conversation for many of us. Because I see more people who are jumping into leadership roles, more people who are really kind of figuring out that being different is okay, which is so amazing for me because right, that's the whole point of this entire show. And so many other things that are going on is that regardless of you're an extrovert or an introvert, that like no matter what it is, you know, that you can make a difference. And I think that's the thing that I'm seeing is that there are so many people who are just fed up with really bad leadership because that kills more teams and more creativity than anything. Now, the thing that I'll say is, like, Look, if you've made it this far into the show, and you're thinking about tuning out you No for this episode because like this is for introverts you're trying to break through and you know, I'm an extrovert, I don't have that problem, I would say Hold on. Because I think this is also for those of us who need to step up and support all types of work and leadership with a better understanding of what everybody is going through that it takes both sides to be able to work on this. So in this episode, what I want to look at is I want to maybe look at how do we look at this discussion with maybe a little bit of a different perspective, understand it with some first hand knowledge, really, what are introverts going through why their way of working is really valuable. And if you are an introvert, try to share some of the things that I've learned from a lot of different talking to a lot of different people to be able to kind of help you with with your work and what it is that you're going through. And, you know, as with most things, whenever you start a conversation like this, somehow it just seems like you know, maybe getting a common definition is a good place to start. Because we're talking about a certain extroverts. It's sort of good to broadly define what those are. Are the extroverts are generally defined as people who are like the talkers, they're the doers, they tend to be like enthusiastic, outgoing, social, like they really like to solve problems collaboratively, right? Like, like they have a big circle of friends, like they tend to be really social people. Now introverts, they tend to be a little bit more of the people who are like the thinkers and the planners, maybe they're a little bit more reserved, they like their alone time, they they like to sort of go off and be able to kind of think things through, they like to solve problems in their heads, and they tend to generally, honestly, they probably just have one really great friend. Now, the problem with any sort of broad sweeping definition like that, is that not everybody is going to fall into those and I think if you're anything like me, I will actually move between those two states, right? Because I think there are some times if I'm in an event, if I'm running a meeting, like if you're going to do something then I tend to be more of the talker do or enthusiastic, you know, even though I do the show Right, like there's a certain personality that tends to come across from that. But I also find that whenever I'm doing my work whenever I actually want to be thoughtful whenever I want to not sort of do the presentation version of me that I'm way more introverted, that it's much more about, like, I like to go off on my own. I like to think I like to think through things through in my head. And I think, you know, for me, it's sort of been learning how to move between the two. But I think you know, the challenge with this show in many cases, and I hope that people get this and this comes through is that, you know, this show isn't always about like, okay, here are all the answers right, like wrapped up in a nice little package with a bow on it. And here's everything you need to do. Sometimes this is about me exploring a topic hopefully it's it's also about you exploring the topic and starting to be open to this. Now, the shows that are the easiest, are the ones where you have first hand knowledge of it right, like I have gone through it, there's something like that. But in this case, I think especially whenever was somebody that can be as sensitive as this like you know, you want to To start out with an authentic conversation and empathy and a real understanding for that. So I mean, one of the things that I did was I went out on social media and just asked people who felt like they would describe themselves as introverts to reach out and tell me their story. Right. And I think, and I think that this is one of those moments where there's, there's something that we all do, which is why I think we have a hard time talking about this stuff. So what I did was when I'm on LinkedIn, went out on Twitter and said, Look, you know, if you're somebody who feels like you struggle with being an introvert, I'd love to be able to talk to you. Now, the interesting part with that is that whenever you start to talk about a difficult subject, there are people that I will sort of lovingly describe as like word vultures, and these are people who want to come out and either want to pick on a particular word or want to make an already sensitive topic harder, or they want to be like, offended on somebody else's behalf. So like tons of you know, a bunch of people came out and said, Well, you know, I don't I don't feel like you should use the word struggle. And it's always fascinating to me, because when you go back and talk to these people, and it's like, Oh, so you're an introvert. It's like, no Oh, so your family or somebody love your best friend center? It's like, no. It's like, Oh, so, so what experience you have with this? It's like, well, none, but you probably shouldn't use that word. And it's like, okay, you know, I think part of it is, you know, it's so easy to do that and sort of be like, offended on behalf of someone else. And you know, that that just makes these conversations all that much harder. I think, you know, for me, it's one of those few things where, like, I try to be super open on social media and really share and man those are the people that just tear me down because it's just like, you know, we want to play war games and do all this sort of stuff. Right. But, you know, I, I, through the course of this got to talk to a lot of really interesting and really amazing people. And I think you know, one of the ones that was the most fascinating to me, I and the funny part was like the whole communication of this probably couldn't have been more in like a true introverted style was through Twitter. I had gotten a tweet from a woman named Adriana Arm Viola and, and Adriana had just sort of said like, you know, what are you looking for? What are you interested in? And I just kind of said, Look, you know, I'm curious about getting other people's perspectives, I want to get some, you know those sorts of things and didn't hear from her for I don't know what it was for like 24 or 36 hours. And she came back. And and she sent me a link to a Google Doc. And, you know, I, I went back to her and I said, like what she sent me i thought was so amazing, like her response was so thoughtful and I think with these difficult issues, right? Because I think the thing that you'll start to discover with a lot of introverts and I think for people who need to try to have more empathy about this is that I think we will often categorize them as shy or anxious or like there tend to be these sort of like negative stigmas. And I think sometimes shame that accompanies that. And, and I think that, you know, I we don't want to be in a place where we're being exclusionary Even with the best intent, right? And so I think I went back and asked her, I asked around if I could share part of what she wrote. And she said, Yes. Because I mean, for me, I think whenever you listen to what she wrote back to me, you get a sense of sort of why this is an issue and why we all need to be much more aware of it. So the Google Doc that she sent back to me said, a creative director with social anxiety. And she said, there are many different levels of anxiety I experience both as a designer and a manager of a creative team. Every career comes with different levels of interactions, but I feel like the creative industries in particular come with an inherent amount of teamwork and never ending feedback loops. There are so many small things that I do as a coping Nimitz as a coping mechanism for my anxiety that can make me seem like a bad leader or an unapproachable manager manager. Simple things like just having my the door to my office closed, because if I hear the customer service center, phones ring anymore, I'm going to lose my mind. So I have to make every effort To let members of my team whether in house out of house freelance or vendors know what's going on, that's my being introverted, and then has nothing to do with them personally. And then I'm always available, just knock on my door, if it's closed, send me a text or an email, like and if I don't answer the phone right away, etc. But I can't expect people to just deal with my issues. So I structured the department around my crazy and it just ends up working, because people don't tend to question methods that just happened to be conducive for productivity and creativity. We scheduled meetings well in advance so that everyone is expected to vocally participate in feedback because then no one is put on the spot, including me. And I don't have to be quote, unquote, on for an hour straight, because that can literally wipe me out for the rest of the day. more direct feedback for me is provided through a combination of online tools, and then meeting to review, to reading to reviewed notes and any other outstanding questions. This helps me to give focused feedback that is well thought And I have time to gather my thoughts in articulated clearly otherwise, sometimes on the spot feedback can be jumbled, unclear and doesn't help anyone to do their job better. The other larger part of my role as a creative director for my company is outside interactions. And this can be as a client slash end user, a sales manager, a sales rep at trade shows a product, a catalog, introduction, seminar, etc. And in these instances, I have to bite the bullet put on a brave face and talk talk talk at the end of at the end of the day is like this. It's not out of the ordinary for me to be in tears, and that is not an exaggeration. And that's that's about it. That's a lot I know. But it's a strange thing to try to explain something inside of me that I know is completely irrational. Now, I think, you know, because that's, like I said, I think first I just I want to commend her for sharing that openly and that transparency Trump transparently I I know how hard that can definitely be. You know, I think that the first thing I would say is like, Look, if there are people like this and for her and in particular, like, these are people we need to kind of like love and support for being able to share this. And I think, you know, you can find her on Twitter, I'll post a link in my Twitter, I'll post a link in the show notes. Like, you know, these are the people we need to follow these people need to support these are more of the voices we need to be able to hear from but but I think that in an injury on his words, you can hear her perspective, you can hear in spots the pain and in spots, sort of the empowerment that she's been able to find. And, you know, you probably felt like either she was speaking for you or that this was something that you have never heard described like this, right, because I think there were moments whenever I was very empathetic and reading that in the slot, hey, I've been through that. But at the other parts, like you know, from for me, it's like, I haven't experienced it that way. And I think that for me is sort of the definition of empathy. And as I talked to a lot of people prepping for this episode. You know, it really became concerning to me. And I think the other reason why I feel this show is so important because whenever I would ask people who would say they were not introverted, whenever I would ask them what words they would use to describe them, you know, it became very interesting, I would get shy a lot, I would get quiet, I would get anti social, there'll be described as asking too many questions needing too much time to think, or in some cases, and for me most concerning Lee, they'd be described as weak. And I doubt they talk this way in meetings or that open about their views with their team or their company. Right. And, and I but I think the fact that these beliefs are held by people is really problematic. And the irony I find in all of this is how much time and effort like I said, we spend developing empathy for our customers. We spend so much time going out and doing studies and doing research and like doing all this shit, right? But if you stop and think about it, how rarely to almost never do. We practice those same skills on the people we work with. You know, introverts have a different style of working that many people are not used to that that means that we need to adapt, it doesn't mean that we need to shun them or belittle them. I think like so many other things on this show, it's a two part problem, right? And this isn't just a quote unquote, them problem. This isn't where they just need to come and be more extroverted. That that is the lazy in the simple answer that is not realistic and is not fair. Because I think that this, this isn't one of those cases. And it's why something I was I continued to study developmental psychology as I continue to look at things like you know, unconscious bias and different things like this, that, you know, we can make bad decisions with good intent. Right. And that's why I said it's been very enlightening me to talk to so many people as I traveled to see how the word introvert can mean so many different things, you know, as I and you know, it isn't, you know, yeah, sometimes it's shyness, socially awkward. Some people who have talked to have actually had medical conditions or had things happen in their life that have made social interactions difficult and have made them more introverted. I've even spoken with people and creative directors, who told me that they're on The autism spectrum and that they don't know how to tell their co workers about what's going on with them or what they're going through. And that this is something that they were just simply born with. And it is not something they can quote unquote, get over. Right. And, and I know that in talking about all this stuff, like there is a real tendency here to be overly simplistic, but I want us to start with looking at these things with a, with a bit of a new perspective, right? Because I think that people of all backgrounds and styles and personalities are what make up great creativity. It's what makes up great work, right? Because if your team thinks the same, if they dress the same, if they work the same, then your work is going to be weakened is going to be compromised. I can't tell you how many teams I I work with whenever I will go in and talk about cognitive bias. Whenever I get to projection bias, right and talk to them about how over time you can get this sort of like mental homogeny that everyone will start to think alike and then they start to dress alike and and in the meeting you'll start to watch them start to glance sideways as they'll start to come to the understanding that they're all dressed alike, right and like look on the way And it's not terribly hard to get a bunch of creatives to wear all black, right? Like, that's not a huge struggle. But whatever you start to notice, it's all blacks are all Gray's are the same shade of pink, or they're all their water bottles of this, like, it is a real thing, right. And I think that the best teams in anything but especially in creativity are the ones that embrace diversity, embrace differences, and even those tensions, because they know those differences are going to push the work and push the team to be better, right. And I think this is one of those cases where if you've not listened to the show that I did on cognitive bias, do yourself a favor, and go back and listen to that, right? Because I think this is the very basis of whenever we talk about confirmation bias, and how we unconsciously surround ourselves with people who are just like us. This is where that comes in. Right? Because we need to create places where everybody can be accepted and valued and be a critical part of this process. I mean, for me, this is sort of become one of my new rallying cries is that we need to start thinking about if you want to start keeping your best talent if you want to grow your best talent, you know, if you want to work with the best talent, you we need to start to think about how do we invest in cultural And emotional innovation the same way we invest in product and, and tool innovation. Because we spend so much time there, right? Like we spend so much time focused on the work. But we don't put those skills we don't put that same level of innovation, same level of rigor, same level of process, into the people that we work with all the time that create all that sort of stuff. Right. So I think some of it for me, then was probably wanting to put a little bit of a finer point on some of the things that we heard in Adrian his letter, but I think also just how do we start to quantify and like I said, so everyone can sort of understand and have a little bit of a true sense of empathy for what introverts go through. And like I said, I reach out to the community but I also I mean, if you followed me for any amount of time on social media, you will know that my love of Jennifer Aldrich who I work with is boundless. I think she is an amazing author and amazing voice in the community. She has shared things about her life and her daughter's life. And what she has gone through that are just staggeringly brave to me and and i think you know, she is somebody like luck if you if you don't know who she is you need to go find so against Jennifer Aldrich find her on Twitter find her on medium. Like she has so many amazing articles and and in this case, she also happens to be an introvert. And and I think, you know, there are a lot of articles that I think in and I'll let you know the words that she's written sort of describe what has gotten her to be in a bit more of an introverted place but you know, she for me is is somebody who I get to talk to all the time and and you know, in many cases like in this one wanted to kind of go and learn from because I you want to get a better understand what somebody's going through. And as I talked to her and talk with others, I think it was sort of starting to group it into like, you know, what are just sort of maybe a few of the most common things that they will struggle with and as I went through this, they're really what seemed to be four major themes that came out of this of like, you know, if you're doing these things, these can be four things introverts will consistently struggle with and that so you need to think about it. The first one is just simply being put on the spot, right? Because often being unable to think or speak clearly, whenever you're put on the spot in that moment, you know, especially if it's like in a really stimulating environment is something that is going to create a lot of anxiety, it is not something that introverts are going to want to do or something that they're going to do terribly well, that doesn't mean and like I said, that does not mean they are slow, it does not mean that they are not, they're not incredibly thoughtful about that. It's just if you're going to pressure them to do that they're going to become anxious and uncomfortable, because their process is to go away to spend some time to reflect on it, to think about it, and then come back and to be able to share and like I said, I think that that can be something that and there are ways to work around this and we'll get to that in a minute. But I think you know, that ability of like sort of like Be creative on demand. I think that's even a stereotype that I've been guilty of pushing incorrectly that like okay, you know, you need to be Always, you know, have an answer and have your creativity on demand. And that's why I said, I think, you know, probably my line of thinking about understanding how you have an idea. That is a better way of thinking about it. But saying, look, you need to be able to do it on the spot, I think was small minded and ignorant on my part, to be able to sort of advocate stuff like that. So again, I think those are those are some of the places where I'm sort of rewiring my thinking on things. And look, it's why this shows an evolution, this is never meant to be the definitive source on things because look like everybody else, you get stuff wrong. But I think a lot of it for introverts also that, you know, they will struggle if there is a lack of structure or a lack of clarity. And so I think, you know, it seems like one of the instances that I heard about a lot seemed to be around, interestingly for me around meetings, that if they got, you know, meeting invites that were vague or didn't have an agenda, then that was something that gave them anxiety that in many cases, you know, they would find themselves either going back and asking for more information before they'd accept a meeting. If they didn't Get that sometimes they would decline it. And it wasn't because even they were busy, but it was just the anxiety of that uncertainty of what was this going to be was something that they they would really struggle with. So I think, you know, even the ability to quickly take the time to write a sentence or two about what is this meeting about? What are we doing can go a super long way. And I think that really sort of goes into this next one is that in many cases, they will struggle if there is no background or no context, and that's just in general. Right. So I think, you know, if there is background meeting, if there's background reading before meeting, then that's something that becomes, you know, super impactful important for them. Because, you know, in many cases, what they're doing is going through and saying, like, why am I here? What is going on? Is this good? Is this bad, like they're sort of constantly analyzing, and trying to optimize what it is that's going on? And so again, I think that if it's an interaction, if it's a meeting, if it's whatever it is, to make sure that you are leading with context or background or things like that, that there is structure in that Clarity are definitely good things to be able to do. We're going to get into more specifics in a minute about how to be able to do that. But I think more than anything, it is just understanding that, you know, introverts are people who are going to communicate and give feedback and participate and sort of be present differently. Because I think, you know, in the conversations I've had many introverts will honestly find it unsettling. If they like, they aren't going to be the people who are someone going to like interrupt a meeting, right and will because in the the research I did, we'll get to this again in a minute, like most meetings, and if you think about it tend to be dominated by like a couple people. And they're the ones who just like to talk to you like to hear themselves talk, or they think that's what a leader is, and I need to like, they just sort of go on and on all the time. But the problem is, whenever you do that, and whenever you sort of just so blindly kind of go headlong into the work that you're doing, you shut out all the other voices and especially for the introverts who are going to find it unsettling, or anxiety inducing, if they kind of have to interrupt them or talk to people and the reality is whenever I talk would talk to them. In most cases, they would say that if they're putting that situation, they're just simply not going to interrupt. And again, we're hiring super talented people. And if we're not hearing from they're not a part of this process, then we're missing out. So and, you know, just to sort of put a cap on this is I think, for me, and again, this show is written from, from my perspective. So I mean, there are a couple things I want to talk about from here, right. I think one is, what are some of the things that I have learned or the advice that I have taken away from these conversations about how to better work, support and empower introverted creatives, but then I also want to be able to share for the people who are introverts, some of the advice that I've gotten from people some of the resources that I found, from a lot of people who I think you know, have become and found ways of becoming very successful, and really sort of figuring out how to make it work for them as opposed to that sort of old stereotype of you just kind of become more extroverted. But, you know, I think, you know, again, you know, the ability to low to learn and to grow and to be able to do these things becomes incredibly important. And so I just sort of jotted down the things that I want to start doing differently about this. I think the first one is just and again, this is something I've tried to practice a lot. I can be guilty of it. Sometimes I'm not doing it. But it's just you don't learn anything with your mouth open, right? Is that in to know when to shut up and listen, because again, if we're dealing with introverts or people who won't always speak up when they should, or whenever we wish they would, right? I think show to shut is the wrong word. But it whenever we wish they would. But when they do, it's so important that you actually listen and pay attention, right? Because these are the types of people that are going to be careful with what they say. They tend to put things together with a huge amount of thought before they actually vocalize it. So if it's something that they are actually going to say everybody needs to shut up, and actually listen to it and I think this is again, why having constant Like in past episodes, whenever I've talked about like the seven rules for running a brainstorm, why things like that are so important, because if we're having one conversation at a time, if we're building on the ideas of others, then we're sure that we're going into this process very deliberately with a very flat playing field. And so again, I think that, you know, that's one of those things where it's one of the things I know it's one things I have practiced, but it is a really good refresher. I think for me, it's also about how can I be more deliberate in making sure that I'm giving everybody kind of like a heads up of what is going on? What is the purpose of a meeting? What is the purpose of an interaction, right? Because I think, again, introverts brains are wired to process information about their environment. And and as I've started to sort of study that, that it's both physical and emotional, and they're usually analyzing those things really deeply, right? Because it's their ability to feel things much more deeply that it's so important to give them the freedom to do that, right. So instead of springing an event, or like Got a meeting on them, to let them know about these things ahead of time. So they can think about it because most introverts are going to do their best communicating through writing, right? So that again, this is not going to be that traditional, like, brainstorm, madman sort of thing. So, again, the ability to leverage instant messaging or texting or email are different ways of communicating as opposed to Hey, let me go drop down and have this conversation with you. Because I think, you know, you need to be thoughtful about how do you not interrupt that sort of careful and deliberate focus on their work? And I think it's also important for leadership and for other people that after you have a meeting, or brainstorm or do something like that, to follow up to see if those people had ideas, they didn't get a chance to share. Right? Because, again, they'll tend to be that thing of like, you know, share it all in the meeting. Whenever we're done. We're done. And this is it. I understand that from a process perspective, I understand why you want to try to set that tone. But again, I think it definitely gets a little bit ignorant about you know, how do you actually make sure that everybody is being heard and different things like that. And and I think some of it is also, you know, to make sure that you are reaching out because it can be very easy to put the burden and the onus again on quote unquote them on other people to say they need to change, they need to step up. And you know, the thing is that for a lot of introverts, the thing that you will discover is it like public speaking for them. And by public speaking, I don't mean necessarily like on stage, like even in a smaller scale, like a conference room seated at a table, even with people who they're incredibly familiar with, can be incredibly anxiety inducing. So that in meetings, you know, you're going to see that a lot of introverts are going to hold back or refrain from volunteering their thoughts or opinions, because it means that they need to, again, do that sort of impromptu vocalization, right. And so I think the worst mistake you can make is to assume that they have nothing to offer in the discussion when I like I said before, in fact, the thing that I've really discovered is that most introverts often keep those really deep insights into those topics at hand. And that you know, for them, it's going to be found through reflection and observation. So one thing I might suggest would be like in the second half of a meeting, before you close out on a topic, make sure that you ask everybody's opinion specifically, so you don't miss out on those things that they've, they've been thinking about. Another part of it is, and again, we will work on communication style, right? Like, what is your communication style and like, well use Legos or colors or numbers or like all kinds of stuff so that we know whenever we communicate with people, what does that mean, to be able to be thoughtful, and to be aware of the fact that you know, as diligent as we can be around some of those things. We also need to be that diligent around people's creative process. And in this case, I think to respect their need for quieter for a long time because with introverts, I think you need to give them plenty of time to work on a project or a thought alone, right? Even if even if it's a team effort, and I know that that can sound insane, or like really the opposite of what like some people may think through on some of these things, right? It doesn't mean that they're a loner, but like introverts are the people that are going to thrive and do their best work when they have the time to really immerse themselves into something Without the distraction of other people. And so I think that's the thing, right? It's like once that introvert has had the chance to really get a handle on what's going on, they're gonna be able to come back with the rest of the group with and have a lot more to offer probably have a very different perspective. Do you want to have a little those things? But I think, you know, this is where certain things like the Open Office plan is failing us, right? Because there is this forced social standard that is being put on everybody, about you have to work in one particular way. You have to be able to do things in one particular way. And it's just not real. And like I said, I think especially with a lot of things around creativity and stuff like that, like we're just more prone to be able to do that. And I think that then the extension of sort of giving them that alone time is to give them time to process things as well. Right? So it's like I said, Don't spring those last minute, you know, meetings or brainstorms, do whatever you can to avoid that, because they want to be able to think about things first and after, like, give them as much notice about meetings or conferences or outside events, like any of those sorts of things right because I think once they have their the time to be able to wrap their head around it, then you're going to find that they're going to be able to contribute so much more than than what you've maybe seen them be able to do in the past, that a lot of that also is then whether you are a leader or if you're a team member, that you need to understand that people work differently, right? And that, you know, just because they want to go off and think about things on their own, that does not mean that you need to leave them out or count them out. Right. And and I think that, you know, for me that that sort of what is probably maybe one of the most outdated concepts and all this is that, you know, introverts are shy or prefer not to interact with people. Whenever I think that's the thing that you don't see is like even with a drowners email, like whenever you actually you give them a moment to talk, what comes back is so thoughtful and so well structured, that you know, many introverts love to socialize and I think would welcome that invitation to collaborate on a new project or to be able to do some of those things. But they may just need time to recharge their batteries or to think things through and you know, so you just don't assume They won't make good leaders because they do. And again, I think you know, some of the people whenever you look at it, who will describe themselves as being introverted, which I think many people find maybe a little bit shocking. The three big ones that jumped out to me was one, brock obama, to Bill Gates, and three Rosa Parks, right. And I think as you think about the like, whatever your political views are different things like that, and whenever you look at how those three people have influenced history, yet describe themselves as introverts, that should absolutely destroy this stereotype that these people can't be leaders or they can't make significant contributions. But like I said, I think a lot of this happens because, and I've even mentioned this before, there are some social behaviors that they're going to struggle with, like one of the ones for me is like his, you know, again, don't expect them to show up at large events or company gatherings, right, like large social gatherings. In many cases, rental rates are just not something they enjoy. And, you know, so there's a company picnic or things like that, you know, they may be there, they may not interact, they mean like, that's just not necessarily their thing. I mean, that's always been one of my thing is whenever we do these big company retreats, or we do these big sort of things. Yeah, I mean, I'll go around and be social, I'll be on stage, even if I do events. And I think this is where a lot of people may even find this strange because it's like, yeah, I can go and do, you know, keynote for thousands of people and do all that stuff. But the thing is after that, like, and even my wife will know, like, I just want to be alone. Like, I just want to go and I want to I want to set I, I just want to be able to kind of quiet and to be able to gather myself but but also because for me, you know, some of those company events are hard because for me, just the idea of sort of just standing around making idle chitchat where we're all just filling time, we're not really investing in each other, we're not really building a relationship, we're just sort of doing it because we all feel like we need to, like I just always have so little interest in doing that. And I know it's not the good thing to do. And it's not the great thing is a leader who had met because we're all supposed to be good. You know, who were on gung ho but it's just it's one of those things where I'm just like, it is so draining to me. But, you know, I think one of the other things that I've sort of learned out of that is in one of the techniques that I've seen that I think can Work for both introverts and extroverts is to pair introverts and extroverts up together. And to be able to let them sort of build off each other, build a rapport, build a way of working, work off each other's strengths, their planning, building observations, intuitions, you know, those sort of different things. Because it's a, I've talked about this a lot like the ability to develop these sort of tensions in different working styles leads to a lot of the best teams. And I saw that with a number of the teams that I talked to where they would sort of deliberately pair somebody that was extroverted with the introvert because, you know, the introvert would be the one who would be the deeper thinker, they would get more to the emotional core, the extrovert would be somebody who could handle more of the politics, they could handle some more of the presentation. So they each would be able to sort of pick their lane and their strength and they could build that relationship and it's something that worked incredibly well. And it wasn't that just a whole bunch of extroverts sort of ostracizing a whole bunch of introverts. But I think I mentioned this before, I think a lot of is also you know, and I've said this time and time again, I'm going to continue to say this time and time again, like we need to be and the best teams are incredibly deliberate They work. They're incredibly thoughtful about what it is they do. And so again, in working with introverts, there are things like and again, brainstorm seem to be the most common sort of topic or area that came up, right was around this sort of meeting or brainstorm. But if you look at it, and again, you know, I'm somebody that likes to do the research, like so if you look at an average 68 person brainstorm, that on average thing you'll find is about 70% of the talking is done by two to three people at most. And I think this is gonna make you know, introverts into wallflowers. And like we said, That's not what it is that we want. So, again, to be deliberate in the way that you ideate. So if you have people that are super extroverted, if you you know, watch your next brainstorm, and if it is dominated by two or three people, you need to change up how you work. And this was one of the things I've learned in running workshops and in teaching is that whenever you have those people, you need to switch it up. So instead of doing the big collaborative brainstorming, everybody speaks, what we need to do is to spend the first part of it where each person goes around individually and writes down their own thoughts, right. So it's private, individual self reflect And then at the end of that each person is given the same amount of time to share what they feel like their best ideas are. Because that way, now we've created an equal playing field. And it's not about, Okay, this one person talking over everybody else. There's a social contract and an expectation that we put in place that helps level the playing field so that everyone can contribute equally. It's the exact same technique that I'll often use whenever you have a lot of executives or leaders who really feel like you know, well, they have to lead by being in charge. And whenever I'm in charge, I give all the ideas right and, and so what you're watching that case talked about it before is that they come in, they say something and everyone spends the entire meeting trying to rationalize why they agree with them. That's not what is going to happen, right? Like, that's not a productive way of doing things. So now, finally, I felt like I spent so much time talking about everybody else that you know, maybe it'd be good to actually spend some time 30 minutes into the show, to actually try to share some of that advice for the introverts who are out there because you know, that was one of the other things I want I wanted to do was to go out to a lot of these other people who are doing this sort of thing. And are doing this kind of work to find out what was really working for them. And there's a number of different things that I kind of went through on this that I want to be able to share. You know, interestingly enough, the first one and the biggest one from a lot of people may seem like the most obvious, but I think it's something that some people obviously struggle with, is to just make sure that you choose the right role. Right? Because I think whenever it comes down to it, there is no industry, there's no job that is consistently going to be the best for someone who's an introvert, right? I think some people might just sort of broadly say that, like, you know, maybe they should go do something that was analytical like research, and maybe they would excel at something like writing but but I again, I'm not I just I don't really like making statements that are that blanket because I think it's important to make sure that for the specific role that you are going into that you understand what are the demands of it, you understand the social data and dynamics of it, you understand how the team works, and whether or not is going to really take advantage of your Best skills? Because I think, you know, that's something that I've learned in my career. I think it's something you know what honestly is advice for anyone's career is that in so many cases, what you're going to do and how you're going to set yourself up for success is going to be before you take that job. So to make sure that you are kind of been looking at that role, and that your aren't sort of getting overly optimistic about over Will you accept me and it'll be great in this time, it'll be different. Whenever there may not necessarily be anything that says that it will. Another one for me. And this is interesting, because I do this in a slightly different way, is to make sure that you schedule what people describe as alone time in your calendar, right? Like even if you have your own dedicated workspace or your own dedicated office, to make sure that you are deliberately scheduling time that eliminates distractions, you know, so that, you know you can have a look, I know that that can definitely be a struggle. People want to come in and do different things like that. And that as you know, offices are just becoming like I said more of an open Plan and different things like that. But you know, if one of the challenges that you're having is that people will pop in by your desk to chat to ping you to ask questions to like, try to hit you up on slack to schedule a meeting to just drop by. That sort of thing can be tough on anybody, but especially on introverts, I should be able to get, you know, any work done, or to recharge or even to be able to get a little bit of alone time. So I think to try to, again, be deliberate. And I've seen this with people who schedule it on their calendar, I've seen it with people who will close the door to their office, I've seen people who will close the door, their office that will say, you know, it's sort of like, you know, look, if this is not an emergency, you know, send me a slack or an email if this is an emergency text me if this is like, you know, the building is on fire, then knock on my door, right. But and, I mean, you can maybe laugh at that a little bit. But I think the ability to sort of set what is the social contract for, look, you know, that there is this time that I need to protect, to be able to be thoughtful, and that's why i said i think there that's why I hold blocks of time in my calendar. Because I do have those introverted tendencies were just as work. And because I need time to not be in a meeting, and I don't take calls and I turn off notifications on Slack, and you can come back in an hour or two hours or three hours, and the world is still there. And the, you know, again, those sorts of things can can survive that amount of time. But I think also, you know, one of the things that I would hear from a lot of people for introverts is is to make sure that you are making an effort to get to know your co workers, right, and that even if there's some of that social anxiety, right, like it's not going out and throwing a huge party, but it is the recognition that those strong relationships are important. And that especially if you're part of an in house team, or things like that, you know, your ability to have allies who are willing to hear you out to go to bat with you to support you in meetings to understand your different way of working becomes incredibly important. And I think both sides of this can very easily just sort of demonize the other right, the extroverts will say, they're introverts are shy, they're weak. They need to work the way that we do. I think the introverts it can be really easy to say, Okay, look, they don't get us we work differently. Like, I'm just going to go off on my own and be frustrated. And I said this before, right? Like hope takes more work. And I think that some part of this is about how do you go outside your comfort zone. And again, that's not burning that zone down. It's not saying go become a different person or go do something like that. But again, confidence and growth comes through discomfort for all of us, right? And I think but it's especially important with people who are going to be struggling a little bit more that kind of social anxiety, that it is something that you try to work on and do it in meaningful ways and to be able to work with other people to be able to do that. But the most interesting thing, and it's funny with a lot of this advice, I may start giving this just advice to everybody was, you know, one of the most interesting things I'd heard from two different people was they would talk to me about as an introvert how they would keep something that they would call like a brag sheet. And, you know, it's one of those things and I'm sure you can think about it right. Like there's that one or two people in the office who have absolutely no problem talking about themselves and what they've done and how great they are and bragging about themself. And doing all that, right. And in many cases, when you think about it, they're probably the first ones who get offered opportunities or additional responsibilities. And again, I think, you know, one of the more unfortunate consequences of being quiet in the office is that, you know, in many cases, your accomplishments may not be recognized as often or in the ways that they should. And like I said, this is even for me, where they're the sort of introverted tendencies where there are times I get super frustrated, because it's like, Look, why do people not understand the impact I'm making? Why do you not like you know, cuz I'm, if I have to talk about it, then that's, that's ridiculous. And but I think that's the thing, right, is that, you know, you're not gonna get recognized the way you should. And even though I think self promotion can feel awkward. And that's why I said is, I think if it's done with humility, it can be self promotion. I think if it's just done with this kind of endlessly, look how great I am, then that's that's egotistical, driven. That's something different. But I think, you know, look, it is, it is a necessity to be competitive in a work environment that you need to analyze. I would say at most stand out, but at least sort of let people understand what your impact is. And so what these people will do is that they would keep just keep a running list of the things that they felt they have accomplished. And that they would bring these lists into meetings with their manager, and to just so that they had kind of this running tally, and would make and be able to remind themselves of what it was they had done. But then they would also take that list and make sure that they were updating their resume that they were updating their portfolio that they were updating their social media, in whatever way they felt was appropriate to be able to make sure that they were taking credit for and kind of advertising what it was they had done. Because I think there is that sort of, you know, there is that inescapable part of a social tribe where we're going to need to communicate. Now the other part of this that I wanted to share was there were a few resources and I'll put links to all this in the show notes. You can go and check that out. But there were a number of things that people brought up time and time again. One of the biggest ones is there's a book by Susan Cain. And that was called quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking. That book was brought up a lot. So I think if you're an introvert and you have not read that I would highly recommend that it is on my reading list. I have been told him have seen that if you're in the app fishbowl, there's an a bowl in there called introverted consultants, that is all about introverted leaders and creatives and consultants talking about how it is that they deal with these things. That the design leadership forum that actually we had envisioned put on is something that if you're a member of that a lot of people had cited that the Slack channel on there gave them a lot of advice and a lot of help. I think, in many cases, it seemed like these closed communities designer hangout was another big one. That's an invitation only Slack channel, if you want to be a part of that. Shoot me an invite. I'll be happy to send you an invite over to that. But I think it was it was the ability to sort of craft a safe space seemed like something that really helped people out a lot. And the last one interestingly, that they had reached out to me but I also a few people have mentioned it as well. There's an Instagram account called radical pause. And it's just literally just look up radical pause one word. And a lot of it is an Instagram account that is dedicated to how to like, what are the things you should do as an introvert to be successful. And I think it's very nicely designed, really well done. And as I said, I'll put links to all that in the show notes. But to just sort of wrap this up, right, like I just, I just want to try to say this as simply as I can. And I think you may have noticed from the balance of the show, that I just want to make sure that we take the time to celebrate, like the differences in everybody, right, so that everyone has their work and their working style valued. And I think this absolutely should never be a debate about if introverts or extroverts are better, right? Like there are just certain debates that everybody loves to have that are just the road to nowhere, right? Like, who owns creative as an agency or as an in house, like who's better introverts or extroverts, like should designers learn to code like they're these things that are just these circular debates to nowhere, right. And I think what we need to do is we need to understand that every have every style of every communication style of every working style, every creative process brings a ton to the table. And I've seen like in the best teams that they are able to bring transparency and discussion to difficult topics instead of ignoring them, and being judgmental about them instead, because judgmental, being judgmental is simpler. It's probably easier for a lot of people a lot less work. being an asshole just takes less work, right. But I think, you know, all creatives and all leaders need to know that they have a voice and can be successful on your team. Because the moment when they don't believe that statement, the moment when they think that the work they do tomorrow may not be better than the work they did today. That's when they leave, right like that's why people quit teams. That's why they quit bosses is because it's a violation of trust. I no longer trust that you will actually value what I do. I no longer trust that I have the ability to contribute here I no longer trust But I can be myself. Right? Because we need to have a broader view of what leadership looks like. We need to have a broader view of what teammates look like and let each person use their own style to be successful because it will bring a needed, like and very needed, I think diversity in thinking and style to these teams. And you know, but look, and maybe this sounds overly harsh, and but I just think I just tend to think of these ways sometimes but like, but if you are not helping with this conversation, if you're not helping with the conversation about gender bias, or about racial bias, if you're not helping the conversation about why people who are introverts need to be a part of, you know, your process in your team, then the reality is for me, in many cases, I think inaction is an action. And an action means that you are a part of the problem. And I say that and again, because bias and alienation and different things like that can happen from now. People who, who generally have good intent, right? But I think that now, after this show, you don't have the excuse, right? You can't sit there and say, Well, I didn't know. And that's what for me, that's what this journey that we're all going through is about. I think that's why this This episode was a little bit different for me because, and I wanted to share it in this way because it was about me questioning things that I have long held and believed it was about me, rethinking some of the things that I've done that may have been damaging, or like I had been destructive, or that I haven't been the best leader. I've been the leader that I should have been for some of my teams in the past, right? And it's about sort of sharing that and being able to say that and be able to say, Okay, look, we can do better. And so that's why I said is I think hopefully for the introverts that are out there. This will give you some tools in some way to be able to start a conversation I think like look if nothing else, play this episode for a bunch of the people on your team or tell them to go listen to it or like casually suggested over coffee that like That was really interesting, you should go listen to that. Because then there's a way to start a conversation around these things. But I think for the rest of us, it is also just sort of, again, not giving into that bias that everybody, you know, looks at the world and acts the same way that we do. So, as always, there's always that weird and awkward transition point where most people tune out. But I think, you know, look, if you find this content at all helpful, like, you know, do me a favor, like leave a review, subscribe to the show, so you're sure you get all those. We've covered a lot of ground here. So I'm going to put all the show notes. I'm going to put all the links, all the links to the articles, the books, the Instagram, all this different stuff. Those will be on the Show page. Just head over to the crazy one calm the crazy, the number one calm. Look, you've got questions you agree with me you don't agree with me you want to talk about this more, there's something that you left out that you think it'd be good for me to be able to share with everybody. Again, you can like the page on on Facebook that were there. If not like you can reach out on Twitter, reach out on LinkedIn on Instagram. Those are all channels I'm on all the time I'm on right now. Back to pretty much everybody. Unless you're a complete jerk, then I don't have time. But as always, everybody down and legal wants me to remind you that the views here are always my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. These are just my own thoughts. And finally, I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know the time is truly the only real lecture any of us have, was incredibly humbled, you want to spend any of it listening to me. So hopefully armed with a little bit of a broader perspective, armed with a little bit more understanding that people work in in different ways. Hopefully, we're all gonna set out to be better leaders, be better coworkers put a little bit of a bigger dent in the universe. And as always, while we do it, stay crazy.