One of the hardest parts of creativity is that it's subjective, which means it can be discussed, debated, derailed, or even killed by difficult people. We will all have to work with these types of people, and knowing how to do it successfully can be a massive part of it you are successful or not. In this episode, we will look at the 4 different personality types you experience at work, why you have to deal with difficult people, how to do it in a productive way, and what to do if it doesn't work.
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One of the hardest parts of creativity is that it's subjective, which means it can be discussed, debated, derailed, or even killed by difficult people. We will all have to work with these types of people, and knowing how to do it successfully can be a massive part of it you are successful or not. In this episode, we will look at the 4 different personality types you experience at work, why you have to deal with difficult people, how to do it in a productive way, and what to do if it doesn't work.
SHOW NOTES:
http://thecrazy1.com/episode92
FOLLOW THE CRAZY ONE:
Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook
What's going on everybody and welcome into the 92nd episode of the crazy one podcast. As always, I'm your host Stephen Gates and this is a show where we talk about how to help you be more creative, become a better leader, create more innovative work, grow stronger career and so much more. Now as always, you can listen to all the shows, get the show notes, even get some crazy one propaganda just head over to the crazy one calm. That's that crazy and the number one calm. Now you always want to make sure hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platforms so you get the latest episodes whenever those come out. And look if you have any questions or if you just want to follow along with what are my usually my zany adventures traveling around the world. You can always follow me on Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn. Now, for today, I'm gonna talk about one of those things that I think you know, honestly, I think this may be one of the hardest parts of creativity is that it's subjective, right like and that anything that is subjective. It can lead to discussions to debates to people who are difficult, maybe even smart. Right. And I think that that means that to be successful, you need to learn how to deal with difficult people. There's just really no way around it. And I look, I think, in my experience, some people are really good at this. But if you're like me, I think most of us struggle to have these hard conversations and know how to deal with these difficult people, right? Because you know what, maybe they're stubborn, maybe they're overly political, maybe they get a little bit too aggressive. Maybe it is, they just want their own way all the time. And I'm guessing as I went through that you probably thought of somebody either on your team or who you're working with right now, who probably fits that description to a tee. And, you know, look, and I think I've, I've certainly been through that. I think there are people who I've worked alongside who started out great and then became shockingly difficult and toxic later on. There are some clients who I worked with who were absolute dumpster fires who through some investment and through some strategy turned into being some of the great greatest advocates I ever had and did some of the greatest work I've ever been a part of. So that's what we'll focus on today. So in this episode, you know, first off, I want to define, let's just define what we mean when we mean difficult people, because I found even in those conversations, what people think about me mean can vary wildly. I want to take a look at that there are actually four different personality types you work with at work. And and just so you're sort of aware of what those are, as a foundation, have a conversation about why is this stuff important? Right? Like, why do you need to deal with difficult people whenever it comes to them being a part of your creative process? And then lastly, like, how do you deal with them in a productive way? And even if you're trying to be productive? What the hell do you do if none of that work? So that's what I'm talking about today. Let's start with and I think it's important to make a distinction in you know, and I've done this in some previous episodes between terminology because I think if you're going to have a discussion around something, it's important, everybody's on the same page. And words can mean a lot of things to different people. So whenever I'm talking about difficult right like What I'm not talking about is I am not talking about people who are unprofessional, right? Meaning that they are confrontational, they are belittling, they are bullying. They are somebody who is I mean, candidly even doing things that may even be illegal, right? They're being sexist. They're being those sort of things that somebody in HR would need to deal with. Right? So I'm not talking about those people, just because I think if you're talking about those sort of people, that gets into a realm of what I feel would almost be like legal advice, which clearly I am not qualified to talk about. So instead, what I'm talking about is difficult people. And the reason why I would define it that way is that these are the people whenever you are trying to get something done whenever you're trying to create something. They're the people that are hard to work with. They're the people that kill creativity, they crush your team spirit, and they're the ones who really pretty much only want to do their ideas or they want you to do what you are told. I think Unfortunately, this is the classic description of a lot of executives. It's a classic description of a lot of leaders. And it's a classic description of a lot of people inside of organizations, like I said, who they think like they are the leaders, they are the innovators, and are just sort of blinded by their ego and a few other things, that they're the ones that are probably candidly the ones that are fucking everything up. And I think, you know, for me, the reason I want to bring this up is because this topic is a huge part of what I've found whenever people want me to come in to talk to their company whenever they want to come in and have me coach people or even if the you know, there's something going on in their career, this topic comes up a ton. And you know why? Cuz like, I think with like a lot of things, difficult things are often just, it's easier to ignore. And the reason why I think this is important, and the reason why I think this is something that is a skill you need to understand and get better at, is because if you just try to ignore these people, it's not going to get better. And the analogy that I use around this and and it's interesting because I find in many cases, whenever you talk about People at work, they, you know, they get very frustrated or quiet or sort of dug in about things. But if you change the context to something else, then all of a sudden, it seems to make so much sense. And it's so clear to them. The analogy that I use for a lot of this stuff is like dealing with difficult people for me is like training a puppy. If that puppy if that dog keeps acting out, if it keeps peeing on the carpet, if it keeps chewing your shoes, if it keeps pooping on the house, like like, whatever that is, and you ignore it, then you know, or you basically give it a treat. It has no incentive to ever change. If you have these people that are frustrating you if you have these people who are sort of screwing things up, that's all ignoring them is going to do right is it gives them what they want, because they feel like you know their actions are justified or they're right or that there's not a problem. And they're gonna keep going on screwing things up. And we're going to talk about this in a minute. Some people are incredibly aware that they do it. Some people are not and I think that's always that sort of thing. But if you You ignore it. And if you don't deal with it, it's going to be a problem. It's one of those things where I think in some cases and I can be guilty of this, maybe you think like if you give them enough time, that person is going to see the light right? Like somehow something will dawn on them and that you know, there will have this sort of miraculous, you know, epiphany, and then they're going to be totally different Dream on, right, I think, you know, these are people who are in their 20s 30s 40s 50s like they've been on this planet long enough that I doubt that that sort of magical moment is gonna happen. And and I think the other part of it has to do with you because I think you know, the frustrations and in working these with these people, it's gonna it's gonna fester, right, and it's grow going to grow over time. And what I see in a lot of people is it becomes demoralizing. They just start to do their job, or they quit or worst of all, it builds to a point where they sort of explode and sometimes, you know, they take their anger, that aggression out on other people who are not the one they're frustrated with. And I'll be honest here, right like, I Really, I struggle with this I have an entire career I've shot I've struggled with it this week, right? Because I am someone who is all about trust. I am all about teamwork. I am a very human centered way of working. So whenever I feel disrespected, whenever I think that someone thinks of themselves instead of other people, they kill ideas out of ego or ignorance, or they just don't care about people. It either really drags me down and kind of choose me up. Or I basically turn into someone who is just more of an asshole than I want to be. And it's just not the energy I want to put out into the world. This is something I'm working on. But like I said, even this week, I found myself in a situation where you know, oddly enough, I'm I'm having to go back and look at the advice of the podcast that I'm writing to trying to help myself out with some of the stuff that I'm dealing with. So this is always He's a work in progress just because people are always so different and they're always a work in progress. But you know what, let's I think if you understand difficult people, let's start with understanding that you pretty much you're gonna deal with four types of people at work, right? Like, they're basically four personalities that pretty much everybody is going to fall into. And these people are going to be passive, aggressive, passive, aggressive, and assertive. Now, let's actually break down what all these mean, right? So passive, passive are like these are these people, they keep quiet, they don't say what they feel, they often will put themselves down or sort of like almost apologize if they express what they're thinking. If you look at them, because I think a lot of it for me and one of the things that I've learned to do is that you you learn to listen to what people say, but I think a lot of it you can learn a lot about somebody if you also look at nonverbal cues, right? Like, whether it is the way that they sit in a chair the way that they Fold their arms like, but basically just what are the things that they're not saying with their body language and passive people? These are the people, if you look at everybody around the room, they usually will try to make themselves, you know, look small, they tend to look down a lot, right? Like they're not making a lot of eye contact, they'll they'll hunched their shoulders, like they're literally trying to physically make themselves smaller. And because for them, what they believe is, is really just that everybody else's needs are more important than theirs. And that's coming from an emotional place where it's just based in the fear of rejection. And in many cases, I think they, they, since they are that sort of small and quiet, more aggressive people will tend to take that as a sign of weakness, right and so, passive people, I think, in many cases will also tend to resent the people who use them like that and because their real goal and all this is just to avoid conflict, right? Like they don't want an argument. They don't want the spotlight put on them and they just Want to sort of please others at their own expense. And I think, you know, obviously, you can see how that is protective. But I think you can also understand the emotional baggage and damage that can come with that. Now, if we flip to the other end of the spectrum, right and aggressive people, aggressive people are the ones where they think that their views, you know, are right, period, full stop, right. And that, you know, if they think that anything is unreasonable or stupid, they're going to dismiss it, ignore it or insult it as often as they feel like they need to. And these are the same people that again, in very much the same way who are then physically the nonverbal cues are going to be the opposite of what a passive person is, right? Like, these are the people who like to make themselves look large. They're the ones who like to power stances with your hands on your hips. And, you know, they're always they tend to be far louder than they need to be. They tend to, you know, much bigger kind of motions and things like that for them as opposed to passive people who who want to look down These are those people that like they're going to make fixed icontact, right? Like, they're going to stare you down, they're going to use the intonation in their voice. They're going to be short and, and really be able to do that because they really feel like their needs and the contributions that they're doing are more important. And I think most dangerously, especially when it comes to creativity, are just more justified than other people. Because for them, like, whenever they're powerful, you win, right? Like that's the thing is, is, and in many cases, what I found is with aggressive people, it usually is an overcompensation for wild insecurity, that they aren't really sure they're doing the design imposter syndrome just like everybody else. But for them, they're gonna overcome it and sort of use this big personality as a shield to keep people away. But I think also, if you ever sit down with them and really spend time with them, a decent percentage of them, they are honest and have any sort of a soul will sort of be remorseful about those actions afterwards. They're just not sure how else to be effective. And so for them That really is it right is like to win at any expense, right? Like no matter what you have to do to other people, that that's what you're going to do. Now, obviously passive aggressive as we blend those two really starts to sit in that middle ground, right because passive aggressive people are, you know, they they will kind of like fail to meet expectations but they're going to do it through like quote unquote like this sort of like deniable means because for them, it's really about this like denial of personal responsibility for their actions, right. So, in sometimes the passive aggressive people, sometimes they their nonverbals mimic more generally, they go more towards the passive side, occasionally, you'll see flashes of aggression, if they feel like they have a moment where they can sort of be in power, but you know, like, they feel like they're just entitled to get their way. And I think even and the challenge here is that we're passive people are going to avoid conflict, aggressive people will seek it out. The passive aggressive part comes in is that they feel like they're entitled to get their way either Even after they've made a commitment to other people, right, because that's where this comes in where I'm going to tell you, I'm going to do something, but then maybe I'm going to try to undermine it or something like that, because for them emotionally, there's this fear of being rejected. But if they are then more assertive or basically like, if they're kind of, they aren't strong enough to take it on head on, but they aren't passive enough to just sort of ignore it so that they kind of take this middle road of trying to get their way without really trying to take responsibility. Now, the last one, and I think this is the one personality type because I again, I think in all sorts of training, all sorts of psychology, you hear about passive aggressive and passive aggressive people a lot. What I don't hear people ever talk about are assertive people. And I know that assertive can be a word that may have a negative connotation for some people. But I think the assertive personality is the one that I try to work towards constantly. Because assertive people are ones where you express yourself directly and honestly right you don't assume That you are correct. And that you what this allows you to do is it allows you to sort of hold others view you, basically you're able to take other people's views into consideration without dismissing or insulting them. So it's a balance of you and them that yes, I have my own opinions, yes, I am unafraid to express those. But I don't need to do that at the cost of other people. And I think in many cases, you know, the assertive people are the ones who tend to be a little more relaxed and casual. There's somebody who will make eye contact, but it's not gonna be all the time and they're not trying to like stare you down. Because I think, you know, they're these people where they really believe that their needs and other needs are really sort of equally important. And in many cases, I think these are the people you want on your team. These are the people that I tried to seek out these are the people I want to work with because emotionally, these are the people who are going to feel positive about the way they treat other people but also about who they are, because of the passive aggressive in the passive aggressive with all three of them. There's an emotional imbalance that's going to make it difficult. And so that's why for me, the assertive kind of type of person is the one that I think is often the best because that means that you're somebody that keeps your self respect without having to win all the time. And it's that balance that becomes important. And I think, you know, ultimately, the thing that you're going to find, especially as we have difficult people as it comes to creativity, the majority of your time, the problems are going to come from the aggressive and the passive aggressive people, right? Because the aggressive people are going to want the design the creative, that whatever it is to look and sound the way that they want it because it's all about control for them. They don't like the idea of everybody else having equal opinion. They don't like going into this process and not knowing what the answer is right. And this is hard because, you know, they tend to think their work is better than everybody else's. But what they don't realize they're doing is short circuiting creativity, right and that, you know, they're making the ideas weaker and that they're making them smaller because They're just going with their first one and then just short trying to bully everybody else into it. Now the passive aggressive, and especially if you work in in house, right, this is where passive aggressive in my experience just runs rampant. Because the problem is going to be that these are going to people who are going to sit in your presentation, they're going to sit in your meeting, and they're not going to say anything, or they're going to agree with it. And then they're going to go around and play politics, right, they're going to stab you in the back, they're going to cause problems. Because they, you know, they'll say that they love everything, you know, in your presentation, but then they're going to go work behind the scenes to get their own way. You know, classic way of doing this, you presented everybody else on the same page. Everybody else loves it. And then all of a sudden, there's an email, there's a memo, rarely does this person ever show up in person and take accountability for it, where, you know what, they sat down with the SVP, they sat down with the Vice President and they just happen to have this conversation and you know what, funny thing they brought this idea you know what, wow, they really love this idea I had and, and you know what, guys, we really appreciate all the work. You did. But we think we're going to go in this other direction. And you just want to go crazy. And I think, for me, I've always been the people that I want to work with the people that I want to be around. Even the people who I don't agree with and maybe don't necessarily, like, want to go get a beer with. I want to be around people who are gonna stab me in the chest, right? Like, even if we don't agree, even if I don't like the way you operate. You know, dammit, I can at least respect you. If you will come up and tell me to my face. what it is you want to do that you don't disagree with it? Or because at least then we can both understand where we both are. As two human beings not sneaking around and doing all this other bs behind everybody else's back. But yeah, so look, I think we've got these two types of people and they've got some pretty common traits that I think you're gonna find. And here's the thing, right is that even nice people, even people who you like, whenever you put into work situations can have these aggressive or passive aggressive of work personalities. And you know, that's why even if you may have a hard time like you understand the descriptions of it, here are some of the things I think very directly, are going to help you pick these people out, right? Like if you can't do it already. And again, I'm imagining you probably have a bunch of people in mind. These are some of the things that they generally do. Like one of the things right, it's always about what they want and need. We talked about this with aggressive people, right? But, but difficult people focus on themselves and their ideas because they they think that their needs and you know, what their wants are all that matters. As opposed to I think, again, assertive people think about the team and themselves, just, you know, and again, maybe it's not a 5050 ratio, but at least more as again, those difficult people, the people who are going to kill creativity that these are the I want, I need II sort of things where again, they just want you to do what they say. And we all say this, right? But if you do this all the time and you don't care about anyone else needs, like that's a warning sign and ultimately, that is not Not gonna produce good work, that is not going to be the sort of thing that people want to work with. And look, if you're also listening to this show, I want you to also pay attention to how often do you use the word AI, especially in the early stages of the creative process, with what it is you talk about, because creativity is a team sport, and if all you're doing is thinking about yourself, that's why I said, Look, bring an opinion to the table, right, have a point of view, but also understand that it was not carved in stone, and it's not the only one. And you know what funny story, you're human, and you might not always have the right answer and being open to that can make your work infinitely better. I think another part of it to me, right, is that these difficult people are not about responsibility, right? They are always these people who find somebody else to blame because like, I get the assertive personality I like, these are those people that look for areas where they can take responsibility and create a solution. The people who are difficult the ones like that. These are the ones who if there's a disagreement, they're gonna say things like, well look like I insulted Bob because he made me angry. They don't take responsibility for their own actions. They don't I feel like they have any role in the problem. It's what somebody else did. Right? Or like, you know, it Look, I asked john to do it, and he clearly can't do his job. It's not that maybe you're a crap leader, maybe you gave bad direction. Maybe you found it in. And so again, like, these are real issues. And and the biggest one, and I think, you know, this is the one that happens with so many companies, so many leaders, I think, you know, a lot of the calls that I get, or the a lot of the things where people want me to come in to help them out, is because they have executives, they have leadership, they have people on their team who just feel like their opinion is fact right. And that's the thing right? Difficult people are going to tell anyone their opinion is right, and that their opinion is irrelevant. Again, the assertive person the better balance these are people that understand that understand facts from opinions, right? And you can balance the views. Because the difficult people these are the ones are going to say things like you know, look, that won't work. That's stupid. This is what you know we have to do. There. They're also ones who in many cases will invoke in executives name like, Oh, we don't i don't think Bob RSVP would like that. Or, you know, I yeah, I don't really feel like this is the sort of work he would like. Did he see it? Did he say that? Did you like it? Again, they're using this sort of thing, where they're making an opinion sound like a fact. And especially whenever you play politics, that happens so often. And one of the things I can tell you that I do to try to defeat this that works super well is ask somebody if it's a factor or an opinion, right? And if they say, Oh, no, no, like, it's a fact. Great. Let's go talk to Bob. Great. Let's go talk to legal Great, let's go like wherever this thing came from, that is allegedly a fact show me the law, show me the email, let's go have that conversation with them, push them on it. Because what you want to be able to do is you want to be able to start to separate that fact from opinion. And so basically, they can't bullshit you because again, as we go back to that show about trust, great creativity is not gonna come out of somebody I don't trust and doing stuff like this tears that down. And we mentioned this already a little bit, right, like these 10 people that you know, not only do they think that what they're doing is a fact but they can use the intonation of their voice, right? They can use the way they talk because difficult people use tone as a way to keep other people from trying to express their opinion. Right? They're going to be these people are saying like, like, what do you think you're doing? Or, you know, what the hell are you thinking or, again, it is a defense mechanism to try to make you feel like you're wrong. And the problem is, is that a lot of people buy into that because it's a shock and awe sort of thing where all of a sudden, you're caught off guard, you know, you don't know if you have an emotional response. This is at work. Again, what you want to try to work towards is that assertive mindset is, you know, these are these people that lead with a problem to be solved. You know, we're aggressive people lead with a solution to be vetted. I've talked about this time and time again. But in many cases Don't fall for the trap of letting the tone you know, sort of dictate or confuse the message. And then with the passive aggressive people, these are those ones that work are going to undermine you right? Because when they can't, when they resort to undermining everybody else, too. make themselves look better. That's why I said, these are the side meetings with stakeholders where the team wasn't there, they go around the process, and they pitch their own ideas. And in many cases, again, I think if that happens, what I would tell you to do is get everybody back in the room, bring whoever it was that they had that side conversation with back in the room, because you know, what they're doing is they're counting on their ability to short circuit the system. And for me, bringing everybody into a room having a single conversation, getting everybody on the same page, where everyone can express their ideas equally, you know, and really putting an end to that and just do it and every time they do it, that's how you respond. Again, because you this is this is the puppy people, right? Like these are you've got to get them to stop peeing on the carpet. And the best way that I know to do that is by doing, you know, again, sort of understanding these telltale signs so that whenever they do it, you understand who you're dealing with. But as we think about this, right, like understanding and identifying who these people are, is probably actually a pretty small part of the problem. Because as you went through it, like I said, that may have given shape or form to it, maybe it helps you think about a little bit differently, but fundamentally, like you just, you know, where you're having problems. So, what do you do about it? And how do you deal with these difficult people really in a productive way because, I mean, we talked about the same stuff again and again, creativity is a team sport, and people are always going to be the biggest variable in that equation. So, this is something you are going to struggle with your whole career. And now like I said, like any advice you know, every everything you do is just going to be a guide, how it gets implemented, you know, different personalities, things like that are going to be the variables here, but you know, look as and this may sound, you know, like, I know, you may be thinking that, you know, for me, it starts with taking a look at yourself, and maybe this comes from my own emotional damage or my insecurities or like this is a design imposter example, or something like that, right? But for me, like when I'm getting this place of feeling frustrated. I think this first step is important because you're a part of a team, right? So I think it's good to start here, where you know, you can try to be open and understand that you know, you are a participant in what is going on. And also, like I said, you know, for me, I tend to do this because the one thing that I can control the one thing that I can understand and think about the one thing where there isn't emotion and a lot of all these other things sort of getting in the way of what's going on is me. So I, you know, again, if I'm struggling with somebody, somebody has really been a pain in my ass something I'm really struggling to be able to work with this sort of person. And it you know, for me, in many cases for this, it comes back to how do I get back to the facts right? This is the same thing like whenever we're doing a brainstorm whenever we're trying to design something for somebody, we need to start with the facts, not with interpretation, not with emotion, not with different things like that. And you know, what are the facts and you know, How and where am I struggling? And then, you know, for me, what I try to do is to try to be as open minded and as clear about that, and then try to see, is there a story that I'm telling myself about those facts? Right? You know, you know, have I always experienced difficulty with that same type of person or that same type of action, right? So that it may be more of a communication style, maybe it's more of a personality style. And then it's not necessarily just that person, but that there is something in the way that I am wired, there is something in the way that I do things. That may be because at the end of the day, right, like, you know, we all have a need to recognize that we have like hot buttons that can easily be pushed that if somebody does something, it just irritates the hell out of you. And so for me, it's starting just by saying, look, am I thinking about this the right way? Are they just communicating in a certain way? Where if I'm very human centered and very emotional, and very, very dispassionate and logical? Is that a communication style problem? versus they're doing something that is actually making it legitimately difficult. And so again, I think if you go into that open mindedness even sort of assume that positive intent with things, that's where I want to start. Because there have been times in my career, whenever I've jumped into shadow, right, like I jumped at something that wasn't there, I made an assumption, I did something and I reacted in a way that I shouldn't have. And again, as we talked about trust being as important as it is, I need to hold myself accountable to that. So I think look like start there and just start by kind of examining yourself. Now in whatever you start to think about the response, whenever you think about what it is you want to do, the rule of thumb that I always use is to put the shoe on the other foot, right? And what that means is how do I look at the world through their lens and to see what they're struggling with? What this does not mean is that you sacrifice your own point of view, it does not mean that you what you think what you are doing is wrong, but rather what I want to do is I want to try to widen my perspective. And I try to do this by just saying like, Look, what is this person feeling? You know? And why would why would what they're doing Make sense? Because here's the thing, right is that if you are dealing with somebody else and you're struggling with them, both of you will feel like you are right, right like to both of you your perspective on the world Make sense? Now, what often happens in this case is that each of you feel like only your perspective is the right one. The ability to be able to go back to these sorts of things, the ability to say, look, I own my responsibility on this, I own what it is that I am doing on this. I'm trying to understand your point of view, but something is not making sense. But that's a big part of it. For me, as a manager, as a leader is whatever that is to always think, like, Look, if these roles were reversed. What would I feel if this person did that? What would I feel if I gave this advice? What would I to try to make sure that if I feel like it's something that I would have responded well to then again, then I generally feel like that's a good way of going about it. But I think the other part of this to me and you know, probably the Next episode is probably gonna focus on this. But I think you know, don't also underestimate the ability of like talking about what is your experiencing with a trusted friend or trusted colleague, right? Because I think no matter what it is a second opinion goes a long way. Now the trick to any second opinion and the trick to a supportive, I don't know what an effective will say support system is honesty. Because here again, what we need to do is we need to separate the facts from our assumptions and emotions. Because if all you want to do is you want to go to your friends, your colleagues, whatever that is, and tell them your side of the story, and you make it sound like you are not a part of the problem, then just honestly skip it, right? Like just skip this step because you're not you're not interested in finding a way forward, you're not interested in growth you're interested in being right. And if all you want to do is to get somebody who just say you're absolutely right, that person's an asshole, like I mean, have had it make yourself feel better, you're not going to grow there's not gonna be a resolution out of this, right? And because like at the end of the day, these people when you can get them and they're a sounding board. It's Good because you need somebody who try to understand both sides of the story, somebody can give you a sanity check and sort of react to what's going on. And that's my son, I think he probably am thinking that's what the next episode is gonna be on. Because I really think, you know, for a lot of us, especially as you start to grow in your career, the ability to have that sort of support system seems to wane or we're just not sure how to do it anymore. Because, you know, what we had in college was we had, you know, or school, we had these great, you know, cohort of people and these people who are around us, and they supported us, they gave us opinions, and we could go to them. And it just seems to die off as we go through our career. And it's something that's been fascinating me and that's why I said I'm we're gonna focus on that on the next show. But a lot of this, to me is also for the fact that you know, as you go through this process, the other trick that I've learned is to make sure that everything you do focuses on the actual problem. Because if somebody is pissing you off, if somebody is hard to deal with, if they're being passive aggressive, if they're playing politics, if they're killing, creativity, like right, whatever that is, whenever You act out, whenever you add fuel to the fire, whenever you bring in emotion, and all these other things, it may feel good to respond in kind. I mean, look, trust me, there are so many times whenever I wish I could just clean my claws on somebody. But the thing is, is that whenever you do that you give the other person and everybody else, the ability to focus on something besides the actual problem, right? Because then you're not really focusing on what's important. And like I said, I see this happen all the time where this central issue gets lost in the sea of emotions and other problems that were added on after that initial problem. And in many cases, look, you know, you want to in gauge and you want to do that, but that's why for me, if something has happened, if there has been a problem, if there is somebody that I'm finding difficult to deal with one, I'm not adding more complication to this because I want to keep this as clean and as focused As I can write, like I want to get to at the heart of that problem is and not have to deal with a whole bunch of he said, she said whatever else. And again, I think that's even in my style of resolution management in many cases. And this may sound weird, I don't necessarily care how we got here. Right because what that does is how we got here tends to be a lot of he said, she said and who did what and what did who and who sent an email when it's how much should I just don't care about right we are where we are. The problem is where what it is we are dealing with something and we are struggling. For me, it's about the team. It's about our creativity, and like the best ideas and it's about where do we go from here to make it better? So don't pollute the waters with difficult people with a lot of other stuff where suddenly they can change the conversation to the viewer mean, are you you know, flipped off and said something stupid or because now again, now they're making it about something else. And a lot of times for me there is also you know, my approach to a lot of difficult people tends to be that I would want to try to Have a one on one discussion with them. Right? Like there's a lot of ways to handle this. And I'm not saying that mine is the only way the right way. But for me, I want to start to talk to that person one on one to try to resolve that issue. Look, there's some people I know they want to put on a performance when they're in front of a lot of people, they want to put on a performance when they're in front of executives, they want to do this sort of stuff. And so having other people around their ability to be honest or to be vulnerable or to find a way forward may drop dramatically. And I like to give everybody like because for me, it's like what is the best chance that I think that we have to try to find a resolution? Because what I found like I said is that whenever you bring other people you bring leaders, you bring bosses, you know things like that into it. Then walls go up and it's like I said and I that's why I want to make that distinction in the beginning. This is not saying that if someone is harassing you someone is bullying you someone is being unprofessional. That is 100% when you immediately need to get other people involved right? Like that is not one of these things of You know, oh, well they'll catch on to it or stuff like that, like, No, I'm not down with that at all. Like I said, this is whenever someone is in the bounds of professionalism, being, you know, aggressive, passive aggressive thinking about themselves, there is something that isn't the bounds of professionalism. But that is a problem. And then there are other things whenever I try to approach these people, because there are other things that I try to do like I try to avoid the word I write because I gets back to and we've discussed this in talks in the past about who is right Am I right? I'm You're right. Like, again, in a moment. I'm trying to resolve something with somebody especially oftentimes difficult person trying to figure out who is right, is it going to be a road to nowhere? So even little things like use the word we write because it focuses on the team situation, rather than like attacking or accusing or making it about just that, because in many cases, that's why I said if you're able to defuse it and they also can understand that their impact is bigger than just you. Yes, you may be the person that is bringing it to them. Yes, you may be the person who is giving a voice to it, but I guarantee you, you are not the one who's experiencing that alone. And so again, the ability to cite stories from other people the ability to do those sorts of things, to let them understand the breadth of it becomes really important. But that being said, I think it is also that you need to go in there and focus on one or two things that are the problem. Don't go in with 16. Right that if there's one or two actions that you want to come out of this, right, if there's a few of those things that you want to do that i think that that is what you're going to need to do is to try to say, Okay, look, how would if we start with this one thing, or how about we start with these two things. But the other thing you need to think about this stuff? Is that with difficult people, you need to keep working at this because the other what you're gonna find there plenty of people who will say the right thing saying the right thing is so easy, right? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'll get better. Oh, it won't happen again. Right. Great actions speak louder, right. And what you're going to need to do is to know that you're going to need to keep working on this because again, if we go back to the puppy analogy, you don't just you know, tell about Have you not to pee on the carpet? And then suddenly it's potty trained, right? Like, no, it is days, weeks, months of work of giving a treats, I've reinforcing positive behavior of letting it understand what right and wrong is difficult. People are the same way they're going to be work, they're going to be in an investment, you're going to have to keep on it. But like I said, if you're putting in that time you're putting in that work, you're giving them the chance. But now, like I said, then you also need to know whenever this is a point where this is just you've given them enough time and patience, right? And like I said, All that being said, You need to know what are those times you need to escalate the problem, right? Because, you know, many times it's difficult to create a process to know when to escalate because, you know, these are those touchy or failure, more EQ kind of problems that don't feel like well, somebody called me a bad name or something, right? But the work you're doing, right, the success of your company, the happy and longevity of your team, those are the things that are at stake here. And so you look you know, get advice, try to you know, get Give the person the chance. First. I always believe in that. And if they don't want to change and they don't want to do it then for me, you know, if you go to their boss, you go to your boss and they get upset. You say, look, I How many times have we had this conversation? How many times have I told you how many times have I asked you about this and nothing's happened. Because again, what they're going to make it about, they're going to try to make it about what you did, when in the reality what this is about is what they didn't do. And that is the extremely important part here, right is that it is about really understanding that you know, these actions need to speak louder. Now. You've done all that, right, you know, and it's like, Okay, I'm trying to work with you. I'm trying to work with you stylistically, but it's not getting through. And the thing that I've discovered is that with some people, you can talk to them on an emotional level and they get it they'll change with other ones, you're going to need more process based or more sort of like steps that they can use as a guide to try to rehabilitate this behavior, right? Because the Discussion alone, they either just don't care, they don't have the ability to do it. There's something that's broken there. Right? So there's a few of these things that like I said, the first ones are more soft skill based. And if soft skill is not your thing, or like I said, You've tried it, and they're going to need a little bit more of kind of training wheels to be able to do this. These are the few things that I think are going to work. The first one, the big one for me is is sort of like customer testing, right? Because if they're coming in, if they're being aggressive, they want their opinion, they want it to be able to say this is like this is right. Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what I am saying is that I want to rely on that source of truth from an opinion versus opinion to what a customers want. And I think like, Look, everyone in this and you in particular are probably going to need to be the one who makes sure that everybody stays open, that everything is tested equally, that it is fair and equitable. And that also if that idea that you knew was gonna win one, don't be an asshole and gloat about it. Right? Because what you need to be able to do is again, just because suddenly you're the one with the power, don't turn into the person who's been driving you crazy. Because what you want to do is you have to create this atmosphere where everyone works together, they share credit, and they work for the best outcome. But again, you know, if we make it about what the customer wants, it's not about me and you, it's not about your idea versus my idea. It's about what works for them. And again, it's not you telling them they're wrong, it's not you backing them down, it's having them seeing in the face of a customer something works or not. And that to me is an extremely effective way to be able to do that. And look, if you don't have a big research program, you don't know how to do it. Go to your local branch or local store, find an actual customer show them the two different ideas go gorilla, like recorded on your iPhone, you can do this super simple and super easily to be able to do that to be able to get something where you have that sort of proof also because then again, if they don't want to do it, now you have proof that it is a bad idea and it's not one opinion versus another. Another part of this That as you study the psychology of creativity, one of the things you're going to discover is that there's a fairly simple thing that that happens in all of our brains, when people will support what they're a part of. So include those difficult people as much as this may sound like the last thing on earth, you want to do include them in the entire creative process, right? Because most of the time, what happens is if there's a difficult person that we don't want to work with, what do we do? We alienate them, we push them out of the way. And that's the thing is that many difficult people are difficult because they're uncomfortable, and they're afraid and that creates the uncertainty of that creative process. Just freaks them out. And so to get around that uncertainty to get around that sense of fear, they just say, bang, here's the answer, because now I have a shortcut of that whole process. It's like anytime I think I see design thinking a lot of times executives bang, that's what they want to do is like, Okay, well, here's what we're gonna do. Why, how did you get there? What well, because again, they don't want to go through that uncertainty. So, you know, be the helping hand. Be the Sherpa be the person who invites them in, let them ride shotgun on that. Make them try to feel comfortable, make them part of a part of that group. process to try to tear some of those walls down. Because if that's what they're hiding, is that insecurity? Yes, it requires you to be the bigger person. Yes, it requires you to maybe have an uncomfortable meeting or two. But the long term have the ability to be that somebody who can rehabilitate that is wildly it is just so powerful. And a lot of this comes back to the fact like I said is, you know, just start to think about are there ways you can change how you work? There are other things where I've seen this, if you have somebody that is difficult, that is dominant, that's always overpowering, brainstorm, that's always doing things like that, instead of just letting them do it. Step, take a step back, think about how you work differently. So like in that case, if you got to brainstorm somebody dominating it, instead of just letting it be a free for all, everybody says, whatever it is, they want, change the way you work, make sure that everybody goes around, and there's 15 minutes, right, and that during that 15 minutes, everybody brainstorms ideas, and they pick their best two or three, and then everybody gets five minutes and use a timer. So at five minutes, stop, move on, that everybody gets five minutes to go. Finding that idea, you level the playing field, you give everybody the same amount of airtime, you give everybody the same way to be able to do it. So again, you can use process to short circuit, the way that they are difficult. Another part of it for me is like, I mean, sit down with that person, especially more extreme cases, right? If they're like, I don't like this, I don't like you, I'm not gonna support what you do. This isn't this is where that sort of version of put the shoe on the other foot, I think becomes really powerful. Because what you can do is you can say, Okay, look, so this is the way we're going to be right. So you're not going to support what I'm going to do, you're not gonna like it. So this other thing that you're working on this other thing that you're trying to get done. So then it's perfectly fine. If I act like you, I go around, so I'm not going to support it. I'm going to try to undercut it, I'm going to try to blow up what you're doing. Well wait, but no, why would you do that? And so again, there's that sort of thing of getting, again, whenever it's outbound aggression and outbound difficulty, people sort of are gleefully blind to it because it serves their own agenda. But sometimes whenever you turn that mirror back on them, isn't it interesting how all of a sudden they don't like that behavior. And in some cases, though, this will cause an wakening where they can finally start to see what their impact is on things. And if you really are at the end of your rope, right, like you just, you've tried this thing of like, you've been thinking about yourself, you've approached this person, you've tried to change the way you work and it just doesn't work. Then for me that the thing that I've done to save my sanity is put your effort where it belongs. Because instead of trying to kill yourself on just this one person, like I said, this is the last trick for me is, is to try to invest in the people who actually want to invest in you. If you have three product people, and one of them is a complete pain in the ass, just do what they ask right and and put the time, the energy, the creativity, that the you know, your team's passion into the other two people who want to partner with you. Because the thing that I found is success is a funny thing, right? Because when you start to make other people successful when you start to do great work for them whenever they find success whenever they start to find better numbers. And executive recognition, right a lot of these other things, and you start working in new ways, that's something you can really use to your advantage because now, those difficult people, you know, who were so sure about how everything needed to be, are suddenly gonna come sniffing around, right? Because like, instead of making you know them and just sort of concentrate on them, you just give them, you give them a minimum. And like I said, it's, it's not something that I like to do, but but for me, whenever you make those other people successful, what happens is one of the most powerful things that I've seen, especially for in house teams, which is organizational jealousy, because all of a sudden, you're spending all this time with these other people. And you guys look like you're having so much fun and Gee, if Mr. or Mrs. SVP or CEO or somebody doesn't love the work you're doing and you're talking about it at conferences, and you're doing all these sort of things, and all of a sudden, they're feeling left out and all of a sudden they're coming around and they're willing to change and they're willing to do those things. So it's one of those things where it looks you're solving the problem, just don't do it. head on. But also save your soul, save your energy, right? Because that's really what this is about is at the end of the day, the biggest thing that you need to do is to take care of yourself and to take care of your team, you need to find ways of being effective. And effective does not mean being right. Right, because too many people get caught up in who is right. For me, it is not about being right, especially when comes to creativity, leadership and things like that. It's about being effective. Are we doing good work? Are we getting along? Do I actually want to come into this place and work every day? Because that's the thing for me, the best leaders, the best talent I've ever been around. I don't care how accomplished they are. They always have some level of humility to them. Right? It's not about being arrogant. It's not about thinking you're right about, you know, you don't get taller or better by making everybody else shorter and weaker. And for me, the people who do that are the most insecure, they're often the most untalented and they're trying desperately to hide that. And I think if if nothing else, just remember that in a weird way, and whenever I work with those people, instead of trying to get mad at them, I almost feel bad for him. You know, this probably wasn't the way they want to be, but they just, they don't know what else to do. And so for me, instead of instead of getting mad at them, try and help them try and try to be that person when they push everybody else away. Whenever, you know, they've done this, and you know, it's like the ogre and Shrek or something, I guess. Be the person that sees them differently, right? Like be the person invites a man be the person that tries and Loki you know, not, it's not gonna work on everybody. And, you know, look, maybe they'll, you know, they're gonna laugh at you, maybe they're gonna make fun of your capacity or whatever it is then fine, and then don't waste the energy. But as companies and as these teams, we have this problem over and over again, because nobody's willing to take the risk. Nobody's willing to lean in nobody's nobody's willing to be the one that tries to do something different or tries to work with a difficult person or tries to say this isn't right. Right. And again, I've said this before, it's I get it like Hope it takes more work. But you know, look, we've all been the difficult people at one time or another. God knows I have. I mean, I've certainly had my feelings in my career and everything else. But it's not letting that frustration or letting that failure or letting those people define you. Because whenever you do that, then everything gets worse. And as I said, I think that's just my hope. And all this is, you know, this, this wasn't this isn't gonna be some guide to like I said, just how to get back in people or do stuff like that. If anything, hopefully it's a guide about how do you think about your role in it? How do you think about how do you reach out to other people? How do you find ways of doing that? Because you know, what we're dealing with is probably one of the most difficult parts of business because there's not a right answer to it. And that's what makes it also great. But it makes it also challenging. So, enough about all that I think your look, I think, if this hopefully, has been helpful. I always really appreciate it if you can leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps a lot of other people find the show, lets me know that people are actually listening because doing a podcast is always interesting because I'm essentially having a one way conversation where we're doing this. So yeah, it's good to know people are listening. Subscribe to the show. Yeah. And look, I'll put the show notes for all this. There's some some other articles and stuff that I found, you can always head over to the crazy ones calm, it's crazy. And then number one com. Follow me on social media. Always happy to answer questions on Twitter on LinkedIn. Instagram is more just like follow the photos messenger on there. It's always hard to know when to get new messages. You can like the show on Facebook, the crazy ones calm or the just go to the crazy one there like the page, try and put stuff up there as much as I can. As always, everybody down and legal wants me to remind you that the views here are just my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. Is it just my own opinions? And finally, I say it every time because I mean it every time but thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only real commodity any of us have and I'm always incredibly humbled. You want to spend any of it with me. So you know what, go out. Take on those difficult people find a way through Don't let them start stop you from being creative and doing that amazing work that you are destined to do. And all the time while you're fighting that fight, just remember, stay crazy.