33: Giving Gun Owners Their Seat at the Table

How do we get more gun owners involved in the fight against gun violence? What is the gun violence prevention movement doing wrong? To answer those questions, gun novice JJ is joined by two great gun owners: Kyleanne Hunter, VP of Programs at Brady, Marine veteran, and corgi owner; and Mark House, a New York city public school Principal and father. Together, they're trying to find a way for everyone to be included in the conversation on how to end gun violence.

Then, JJ dips into some unbelievable news--namely, why guns don't belong in schools--and the gun violence prevention wrap-ups move from Fridays to Mondays! What?! I know, I know, we're getting crazy around here.

In this episode, you'll learn:
...about the culture of gun ownership;
...why safe storage matters;
...what it's like dealing with the "new normal" of school shootings;
...how some gun owners respond to "common sense" gun laws;
...what it's like, being a gun owner who is involved with efforts to reduce and prevent gun violence;
and, what the gun violence movement is doing wrong.

Some of the links mentioned in this episode :
"End Family Fire."
"Gun Ownership."

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their longstanding legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Transcript

JJ Janflone: 0:08

Hey everybody, this is the legal disclaimer where we tell you that the views, thoughts and opinions shared on this podcast belong solely to the person talking to you right now, and on this podcast, and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note, this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay, we find it disturbing too. Welcome back to Red, Blue, and Brady, the podcast that deals with gun violence and gun violence prevention. Now today I'm flying mostly solo again, as JP is still out there trying to save the world. Luckily, I'm joined for a bit by the wonderful Mark House, and the wonderful Kyleanne Hunter. Now, Mark is a New York City School Principal, gun owner and a Brady supporter, who is here to talk to us about how responsible gun owners need to be involved in gun violence prevention efforts. Ky, as you should all know by now, she's been filling in for JP quite a bit is Vice President for Programs at Brady, is a marine veteran, and is a gun owner. Heck, she was voted"Most Likely to be Annie Oakley" in high school, and trust me if you knew, you'd believe that. What you might not believe, comes up in our "unbelievable but.." segment, where I'm going to tell you the story of how guns in schools can go horribly wrong, even in the most trained hands. Finally, I'm wrapping everything up for you with a new segment, the news, which has been requested by you listeners. I'll be covering some gun violence and gun violence prevention news that you really need to know. But before I get marked tardy, let's hop over and get started with Mark and Ky. We are joined for this fabulous episode by Ky Hunter.

Kyleanne Hunter: 1:55

Hi, I'm Ky Hunter, Vice President of Programs at Brady.

JJ Janflone: 1:59

And we also have a phenomenal new guest, who has never been on this podcast before -- whereas Ky has -- Mark House.

Mark House: 2:06

Hi.

JJ Janflone: 2:06

Mark, do you want to just introduce yourself, really quickly, to our guests?

Mark House: 2:09

Sure. My name is Mark House. I am a gun owner. I am a principal of a public school in New York City, and I'm trying to find a space where it makes sense around gun regulations.

JJ Janflone: 2:19

That is a phenomenal introduction. Ky, he showed you up a little bit.

Kyleanne Hunter: 2:23

I know, he did.

Mark House: 2:24

Hardly

Kyleanne Hunter: 2:25

Maybe I should, maybe I should jump back in. Hi, I'm Ky Hunter, and I'm a gun owner. I am also the Vice President of Programs at Brady.

JJ Janflone: 2:33

And you've got a Corgi.

Kyleanne Hunter: 2:34

Yes, and I have a Corgi so we have like gun owners for gun violence prevention, and corgis for gun violence prevention.

JJ Janflone: 2:39

Ivy Shamus, one of the, like the very first people we had on this podcast, said that all dogs would be for gun violence prevention. So Mark, I believe this is actually your first podcast that you've, so thank you so much for coming in and for taking the chance on your first podcast. And I was curious that when you heard that a gun violence prevention organization wanted you to come on air for a podcast, what was your first thought?

Mark House: 3:01

I was worried that, by the time the podcast was over, that would be the end of the affiliation with Brady. I was like, 'I hope I don't say anything that they find too objectionable,' that was the first thought that went through. And then the second thought was if it's, if it's helpful at all, to put my voice into this conversation, then I'm more than willing to do that.

Kyleanne Hunter: 3:18

And I am super excited that you're here for this because something that I always like to think about in this conversation is the fact that, you know, there are 393 million guns out there in this country that people own. People like you and me own these, own these guns. And there are policies, practices, procedures that we all talk about wanting to advocate for. You know, we can pass all of the great laws, we can, we can strengthen the policies around getting a gun, but if we're not bringing our voices into the conversation, there's still going to be 393 million guns out there, with people who don't want to be part of it, don't feel like they're part of it, don't feel heard in the conversation. And so, expanding this table of who's talking about gun violence prevention is super important, for me to do, so I'm super glad that you're here. And would like to hear from you a little bit about your what, what brought you to the point of being willing to, to share your voice in this conversation? Because it it's not always easy.

Mark House: 4:18

Sure. I think it's kind of for me the intersection of three disparate things, coming together. So one, I'm a dad. I have a nine-year old kid who's amazing and fantastic. I grew up hunting and shooting recreationally. It's always been something that we did for fun and I've got a nine-year-old daughter who's a vegetarian living in Manhattan, who's regularly scolding her father for all sorts of different sins. But, and trying to figure out how to make a safer world for for a kid. There's something about waking up and tucking in your kid at night and seeing them and going wow, this is, this is scary, when she comes home and talks about the the shooter drills that they do at school. When you hear the pop-pop sound at night, and you know what it is because we shoot guns, and it's not a car backfire. So that's, that's part of it coming to it as a father and trying to come to terms with, you know, beliefs that I may have once held that no longer seem as relevant when you're looking at an innocent 9-year-old kid part of it. The second part, I said in the introduction, I'm a public school principal. So I'm actually the one running the shooter drills. I'm the one trying to figure out what happens if somebody comes into our school with a gun, you know, how many people are we going to lose? Who gets shot first? How do we lock down classrooms? How do we hide kids? How do we go through this whole process? It's become such a normalized experience for my students. And that should give everybody pause when you're trying to figure out how to hide an 11-year-old from a potential shooting. And when we sat down and started looking at it, and trying to figure out, that actually seems more likely than a fire at this point. We grew up doing fire drills and now, the fact that somebody's coming in intentionally to shoot up a school seems, I don't know the stats on it, but it seems like, at least in my mind, a more likely scenario for where I work. That's, I mean, it's the intersection of those places that really brought me in thinking, and then the last part was a frustration. I actually met somebody who's in the Brady Foundation, a buddy of mine, who's a principal of another public school up in New York, and he was talking about it and I kind of was snarky. And I said, "Oh, another organization that doesn't know anything about guns making, you know, gun policy and regulations." And he said, "what?" And I said, when's the last time you shot a gun, you know, and he laughed. He said, "I shot one, I think once was a Boy Scout camp." And I said, I don't I said, I watched laws roll out again, and again, where they make a particular feature illegal in the gun manufacturers seems to take them about eight months while they scratch their heads collectively and go oh, so we'll do this instead. And just to to hear, to be frustrated about it to go well, if you're going to make a law that's make sure it's one that actually has a serious impact on what we're seeing instead of, you know, dabbling around the edges. So he said, okay hotshot, you think you know so much, and then dragged me to a Brady Foundation meeting, which I thought was gonna be a one-off. But here I am.

JJ Janflone: 7:02

We gotcha.

Mark House: 7:03

Yep.

Kyleanne Hunter: 7:04

There's a culture around guns and gun ownership. So I'd like to hear a little bit about your, your background with guns, how guns were a part of your life growing up and how that is, is shaping where you think there's a space, just for this, sort of, social norm change around gun ownership and bringing responsibility really back front-and-center in being a gun owner?

Mark House: 7:27

Sure. I think I would actually, it's interesting because I think there's a number of subcultures within gun ownership, right? I represent one or two of them. So, so I grew up out in rural Maryland and I, we didn't think it was unusual to roll off the school bus and grab BB guns and pellet guns and wander off into the fields. And it eventually evolved into 22 rifles, and eventually shotguns. But it was it was very much, I don't think anybody would, on that school bus, would have thought that was an abnormal afternoon activity. It was culturally what you did when you got home, you went, you know, grabbed a bow or grabbed a gun and that was what you did outside. It wasn't like a small culdesac where there are a bunch of other kids on bikes. And then also the the hunting aspects. I'm a pretfty avid deer hunter, hunt pheasants, hunt rabbits. So that's, that's another subculture that's a little bit different, right? It's not the pure recreation shooter. I actually find a number of hunters shoot a surprisingly few number of rounds a year, a little alarming sometimes, but that, that's a separate culture, and a separate set of firearms that they're interested in. So those are the two cultures there. And then there's kind of a range culture too. And so I belong to a shooting range in Manhattan, those do exist, so a legal gun owner in New York,

Kyleanne Hunter: 8:40

I grew up in the Bay Area of California, and we have gun ranges too. So as much as, they're there.

Mark House: 8:45

And it's it's interesting there too, because I know few people who are more well-versed in firearms than the folks there, and they are also, they would be mortified to not be following a law. They are some of the most avid folks I know about making sure they're following all the regulations, making sure everything's taken care of. God help you if you walk into that range, and you have your gun already loaded. The range officer is going to give you the business you're going to be asked to leave, you know, they expect you to follow safe practices, to follow the law. It's their reputation, it's their business that's on the line. And I've found that to be true when I was shooting in Texas, I found that to be true I shooting in Virginia, that a lot of gun ranges have folks that are there that are very avid about shooting and gun ownership but are also very, very interested in making sure they're following all the regulations and the laws.

Kyleanne Hunter: 9:33

And I think that that's a really important aspect of this conversation, and actually that that culture is actually very similar to the military-type culture. I mean the, the policies around safe weapons handling responsibility, is front-and-center to military handling as well. Like if you're, if you're on the rifle range in the military, and you even stand up before like unloading and showing clear, like, drill instructor is literally going to smack you in the back of the head and like make you do push ups forever. So, you know, that's, it's taken very, very seriously. However, like so many debates, the media in particular has picked up really on the two extremes on the other side. It has often painted all gun owners as essentially these Boogeyman, you know, who want to stockpile weapons, really throw a middle finger to any law that's up there, open carry AR-15 everywhere they go. You know, even this idea that you need good guys with guns as vigilantes everywhere, everywhere that's out there. I'd argue that's actually the minority of gun owners who are that way, yet they've taken up the majority of the conversation. Just like it's likely the minority of people who want to ban all guns, and get rid of all guns that are there, you know. So what do you think we should be doing to amplify the voices of that responsibility, of the fact that you know, range culture, hunting culture, military culture really is around being vigilant, being responsible, and you know, practicing a sport that's fun?

Mark House: 11:00

So I've said this in a couple different ways, with different audiences. Just curious whether this is my standalone view or not, and I don't think it is, but I feel like organizations that are working to prevent gun violence, I feel like there's a there's a strong need for them to decide where the line is. Like, I think the other side of this debate, right, represented largely by the NRA has done a really nice job of saying any infringement is all infringement. Right, you you come for one thing...

JJ Janflone: 11:27

One toe under the tent, and there it goes.

Mark House: 11:28

...and they've done an amazing job of getting that message promoted. And I think if you've heard that message a lot, in the different places that you've been as a gun owner, it becomes difficult when you are trying to converse with somebody who's working to prevent gun violence to know "where do you want to stop?" Right so, I own an AR-15, I own two of them. Not in New York City. They're safe housed somewhere else. f you said you wanted to take t ose, would I be okay with it? P obably if I knew where you wante to stop, right. So if you tell e I'm would like to take all y ur firearms, I'm out, right. So hat's, that's kind of a non-sta ter for most gun owners. They'v invested, it is, as you say, culture. It's not just an objec, right? It's it's got cultu al attachment to it. If you s id, we're going to, we're tryi g to do something and we want o stop here. I'm invested in hat conversation, I'd like to ontinue that conversation. But think gun violence prevention rganizations almost have to ome up with an agreement on his is what we would like to o, this is where we're going to top. And that, I think, is a conversation that could start t get gun owners to lean into a l ttle bit, and to start to go"Okay, well, what are you real y trying to do here?" Becaus I think it's a little vag

JJ Janflone: 12:38

And I think I'm being clear on why. So, one of the things that Brady has seen become increasingly popular across all lines, is the End Family Fire program, because of the idea that if you are a responsible gun owner, of course, you're down for safe storage, you know, and and of course, you're down for following the law in terms of, you don't want, say a 9-year-old to have access to to a firearm. So I think also too, not only saying "this is the line," but saying "this is why" that particular line is there that's backed up, would be exceptionally helpful. And so I was wondering if you think there's anything else that you know, what is the gun violence prevention movement doing, as a whole, not doing well to get gun owners who are interested in gun violence prevention, to the table?

Mark House: 13:19

I think they're largely talking to themselves, if that makes any sense.

JJ Janflone: 13:23

Yeah.

Mark House: 13:23

Yeah. It's interesting, because I've been trying to figure out how comfortable am I going to a gun range, you know, I was joking earlier about wearing a Brady t-shirt, you know, at the gun range. But trying to figure out where, where is that space to start that conversation? I know Brady's, I've had the pleasure of working with some of the Team Gnough folks, and as a high school principal and a middle school principal both, I've seen the profound power that kids have in breaking through. Gun owners have kids I mean, I know how my parents started recycling was my brother and I coming home talking about recycling. And my parents were like what "what is this?"

JJ Janflone: 13:58

A few Earth Days and suddenly no more styrofoam is allowed in the house. Yeah,

Mark House: 14:01

We're demanding blue tubs, my parents are trying to retrofit the kitchen counter to figure out where to put the thing, but that's, it's it's a really unbelievably powerful voice that cuts through a lot of the political tension, that cuts through a lot of the, I don't know, the preconceived notions around who wants this and who doesn't. But I think there's a number of common sense things, talking about, you know, safe storage. I have told this story a few times to gun owners, live in an apartment in Manhattan, and one evening I was having dinner with my daughter and somebody tried to break down my apartment door and it's steel door and I assumed they had the wrong apartment, I don't know maybe some child I suspended years ago, but I don't think that's what it was. But yeah, I immediately my cell phone move towards the back and I have a handgun that's in a biometric safe. You know, I put my finger up and went just opened got my daughter behind me and started screaming "Please don't come through that door. I do not want to shoot you. Do not come through that door. I do not want to shoot you." And I had to replace the front door, it was caved in, the steel door caved in enough, they were definitely coming in to do harm. And I thought about it, you know, it took an extra second-and-a-half. Had I had the handgun out and not secured, the most likely victim is probably myself or my daughter. By securing it and I don't know, you know, statistically I don't know where that falls, it still is probably putting a family more at risk than not having it in the apartment at all. But it was, as I replayed the situation later, and as I've told other folks, like, there are safes that you can open that only I can open in seconds, that let me keep it secure, but also easy to access should something like that, you know, in my lifetime, that'll probably never happen again. You know, the one and only instance where I thought I needed to grab something, and maybe I would have been equally as secure with a baseball bat. I don't know. But that's what I was trained to use and that's what I went to use.

Kyleanne Hunter: 15:50

And I think that's such an important part, like sharing stories like that. are such an important part of

the conversation because A: 15:54

it normalizes the gun owners in the conversation. But it also places guns sort of in this universe of risky things we choose to engage with. You know, there, there are a lot of things out there that are risky that we choose to engage with in our lives, whether it's driving a car, which is incredibly risky, drinking alcohol -- risky, sexual activity -- risky. These are things that carry risks to them. But we as a community have invested in solutions to mitigate those risks. You know, there are, some of them, the industries has taken the lead. On automobiles, you know,we have seatbelts. You know, we've got for drinking, there are large social norms campaigns around what responsible drinking actually is. None of them say"don't drink," right, they say"here's how you drink responsibly," right. And even when you think about now, adding kids to the mix, I'm sure when you, you know, having a kid, the way that you engage with alcohol changes throughout the kid's life. You know, when they're young and and toddlers, it's you don't want them to unintentionally drink all your booze. When they're teenagers, you don't want them to intentionally...

Mark House: 17:03

...you secure it and lock it.

Kyleanne Hunter: 17:04

Yeah, to start having those conversations around guns too, and the risks associated with them, that you know, keeping them in a biometric safe, which only you can access, especially with a young, a young child in the home because kids are curious and want to get into stuff. Tou know as, as she gets older, or as your life circumstances changing, continuing to have these conversations about wher the risks sit, whether it's unintentional shootings, suic des, intentional shooti gsm, and being open about that I think that's a really impo tant place for gun owners to s t and say, "Yeah, it's ris y, and here's what we're act ally doing to mitigate those ris s."

Mark House: 17:39

Right. The, I mean, the examples you use with cars, right, so the auto industry is involved in the risk management. The beverage industry is involved in the risk management, and I don't see the same participation from, from gun manufacturers. And that's, that's troubling, too, right. There's, you know, we have a massive risk. It's a product that people would like to still purchase, they'd like to still access, woud like to still use. And I feel like they've, they've given up their responsibility in terms of mitigating risk there, as an industry; it seems odd to me that, in all these other instances...

Kyleanne Hunter: 18:11

Well, there's some legal restrictions on that, ordisincentivized, at least for industry. And so that's one of the things, when we think about some of these policy ideas, that can be more universally appealing to everyone, we know that universal background checks polls incredibly high, but that's a very low-hanging fruit. Something else that I think is important to discuss really is, you know, how to get gun owners involved in investing in research and safety side of these things, because that, you know, that's not taking away the access to own guns. But let's better understand the problem, and let's really dig into what these mitigating solutions are, that the industry can be part of. So we'd love to hear a little bit of your thoughts on, you know, how to engage gun owners in more investment, you know, getting them engaged in investing, because that's not taking away guns.

Mark House: 19:00

I think so, I, I'm a New York resident, in New York recently passed new legislation where you're responsible for your firearm you're responsible for to use, which means you're also responsible for securing it. If you've not secured it properly, and it's improperly used, you're on the hook to and I think as a, I don't think that would be a hard sell for an awful lot of gun owners. To go"you have...," they're not confused about it. They're not confused that they have a lethal instrument. In fact, I think they're less confused than other folks are. They, especially hunters, know how things die. And they're, you know, they watch movies, you know, ex-military know what happens there. And it's not some, you know, Hollywood production, they actually have seen it with their own eyes, and they understand it all too well maybe. But I think, I think they understand securing it -- for that reason -- and I don't think you'd have a lot of objection there. I don't think you have a lot of objection over background checks. I don't, I think there are a number of common-sense places, that you can get gun owners to the table. And from there, start opening up other conversations and and going okay, is an AR-15 really the right platform for what you're trying to do? You know, is that is that the best home defense weapon? Is that the best hunting platform? And again, I think in most cases, you'll hear, once you talk it out with folks that know what the weapons do, and how they work, I think you'll hear a lot of "nos" that's not. I think there are some common points where you can get almost every gun owner, right. So I don't know, anybody that I shoot with, or relatives, who aren't for better background checks. Genuinely, I have not polled any of them and had them go "No, I don't," every one of them's like, "Well yeah, that makes sense." So I think you've got a starting point with a broad gun owning community. I've had a little pushback on safe securing, safely securing the weapon. But even there, not a lot, right.

JJ Janflone: 20:54

Is that just the argument that if I need it, I can't get to it?

Mark House: 20:57

And that's partly why I've told that story so many times, about grabbing mine in a moment of crisis and, and the ease at which I was able to do that, and the difficulty my kid would have, or even an intruder would have in getting to it.

JJ Janflone: 21:10

Yeah, I'm assuming a biometric safe makes it much harder for your firearm to then be stolen and then used in a crime that could then come back to, you could be responsible for.

Mark House: 21:17

Right, so I feel like there's some entry points for a broad gun community. But I certainly I know hunters who aren't fans of weapons that hold, you know, multiple, multiple rounds. They think it's unsporty, and I know other hunters who think that that's a completely reasonable platform to use. I just, I feel like within the gun community, the NRA has done such a phenomenal job of saying "any encroachment is unacceptable." And then I feel like when the the antigun community speaks about the group as a monolith, they play right into the hands of the NRA, because they're saying, "Yeah, see, they think we're all evil. They think we all do this, they think we all do that." And I think by really promoting fear, you know, they do a phenomenal job of making everybody kind of entrenched to think that any sort of infringement is a problem

JJ Janflone: 22:06

Do you think we focus on, because one of the things we had to clarify before we started, is how many guns you own? So you own 26, right? So do you feel like one of the things we maybe focus on in the gun violence prevention movement too much is, "Why do people need guns?" as opposed to "Why do people want guns?" You know, I don't hear a lot of conversations, for example, around people who are like "Guns are fun. That is why I have them." Do you, do you think maybe making space though, in the movement where people could admit, "Look, I own this thing that has the potential to be exceptionally dangerous, but I do so responsibly," do you think that we need to make room for that or...?

Mark House: 22:39

Yeah, I think people, I'm not sure. It's always a rational conversation, right? So we were joking about guns -- or dogs, at the outset of this -- not joking about guns.

JJ Janflone: 22:50

Eh, sometimes.

Mark House: 22:51

Dog ownership isn't a rational decision, right? When you get down to it, I'm now going to spend extra money to love this thing. You know it, there's no part of that, when you actually, if you talk to a robot, and tried to explain dog ownership to them, they're like,"well, you're going to eat it."

JJ Janflone: 23:09

It's gonna cost a lot of money, and it's gonna pass away before you do, so it's gonna really hurt.

Mark House: 23:14

Yeah, it's got the potential to hurt somebody. It doesn't make sense, and yet we are, we are passionate about that, right? So, I think there's an awful lot of things that we attach value to that don't logically make sense, that if you try to explain it, it's cultural. It's -- I do it because it brings me joy -- can how much of human endeavor can we put into that category? You know, I've heard folks be like,"why are we spending so much money on the arts?" You know, because it brings us joy, it brings something of value, that we think, to our lives. I think you could certainly put recreational firearm use into that category. I think folks own guns for different reasons. I have some former law enforcement friends who own a single gun for self defense, and that ends the list, right. They don't feel the need to own multiple guns, they don't modify the guns, they don't change them. They get whatever. My wife has an aunt who is former Georgia Bureau of Investigation, who has her one service weapon. She doesn't particularly care for guns, but she keeps that one. And then I think there are hunters who are entering from different purposes. So I think you could open the conversation up. But I think trying to understand the gun owning community would be helpful too, because you're talking to a lot of disparate folks, who I don't think are represented well by a single organization.

Kyleanne Hunter: 24:30

And that's, that's something that I really appreciate you bringing up. I mean, one of the, one of the things that I'm really trying to dig into in the research that I've been doing both for End Family Fire -- and because I can't quit academia, as much as I try -- you know, but really is the fact that so much of the research, I think really is ill-served for two things. One is a huge bifurcation into gun owners versus non gun owners, but also really a normative bias in this research that is always asking, "Why don't gun owners do'X'? Why don't gun owners support 'X'?" And and putting this square, rather than trying to say, "Well, why DO gun owners?" or where, you know, what the motivation sits behind it. And so this idea that there isn't just one reason, you know, there's not just one reason why somebody has a dog, right? You know, there's not one, you know, there's service animals, there are companion animals, they are seen as children by people, all these different reasons. And so I appreciate you being here to represent, I think, a point of view that is essential to have in the movement, and really, really essential to push our conversation forward.

Mark House: 25:39

Sure.

JJ Janflone: 25:40

So for gun owners like you -- so not a monolith -- you're just speaking just for, just you. What do you wish you could see change in the US, in regards to this conversation about gun violence prevention. A little unfair, because you've touched on a lot of things here today.

Mark House: 25:55

So if you're asking the big dream?

JJ Janflone: 25:57

Yeah, what's the big dream?

Mark House: 26:00

This will make me horrifically unpopular.

JJ Janflone: 26:02

Welcome to the club.

Mark House: 26:03

Okay, fair.

JJ Janflone: 26:04

I'll send you my Twitter DM so we can have a moment.

Mark House: 26:06

I guess, in my mind, I break this conversation up across a spectrum, right within the American public, the gun owning public. Where on one end, you have folks that are, lets talk gun owners for a moment, the folks that own guns in the purposes they own them for, right. So there are hunters who own only, you know, guns that you wouldn't, it'd be the last thing you would turn to for self defense or to commit a crime. There are all the way to the other end, you know, militia groups that are anti-government that believe adamantly that the Founding Fathers wanted us to have, you know, weapons so that we could overthrow the government, in that circumstance that that was what was required. And I feel like on that end, there aren't many folks that think that that should be normalized. And then I feel like somewhere in the middle are folks who think that you have a right to defend yourself. And I think if the conversation went to a space, and I don't know how to do it with the Second Amendment, genuinely, I've spent God knows how many days thinking about this. What would it look like if there was an amendment that said in America, you have the right to self defense? And said, that's where we think we can live, and self defense is not a weapon that fires a lot of rounds, at high speed, right, and that self defense is a regulated, right. Right, like a driver's license, like something else, where we were registering our weapons where we were, but if I knew that that was a right that was also protected. If I thought nobody would encroach on my right to self defense, or to go hunting or for sporting purposes, other than reasonable regulation. And I think if I could find a space where we said, okay, I'm less concerned about calling a thing, an assault rifle, I'm concerned about the number of rounds that it holds and how fast it shoots. Does that make sense for self defense purposes? I'm rambling a bit, but I think my absolute dream in this space would be to have an amendment that protected what I think the gun owning community actually stands for, and that's self defense, and I think then regulating out guns that don't make sense in that arena, that we keep seeing used over and over again. But abandoning the Second Amendment without a different protection also seems like a non-starter, even for me personally. So I guess that that would be my ultimate dream.

JJ Janflone: 28:23

I mean, I think you said that you rambled, but you really didn't. I think it's just that it's an exceptionally complicated problem, so any answer, even if it's pie-in-the-sky is going to be exceptionally complicated too.

Mark House: 28:32

Thank you, I appreicate that.

JJ Janflone: 28:33

Well, and thank you so much, Mark, for coming in. And I hope you realize that you've now opened yourself up to us stealing you time-and-time again, to make you come on.

Mark House: 28:41

Well, thank you very much. This was fun, thanks.

JJ Janflone: 28:46

Well, and you know, I can't have an educator here and not sure an "unbelievable but" story that deals with a school. So here we go. For this particular segment, we have an older story, one that underscores why guns don't belong in schools. While giving a gun safety lecture to a group of Florida high school students, a Drug Enforcement Administration agent accidently shot himself in the leg with a gun he thought was unloaded, and that he had told the class was unloaded. What's worse, this happened shortly after him saying quote, "I'm the only one in this room professional enough that I know of to carry this Glock 40." The video was then released by a parent of one of the students and wildly shared around the internet, thanks to the power of YouTube. I've seen it, and there's a solid chance you've probably seen it on clip shows too. To be fair, he's pretty tough because after shooting himself in the leg, the agent tried to continue his presentation by saying quote,"See how that accident happened. It can happen to you and you can be blown away. So guys never play with guns." I mean, good sentiment. I once stopped teaching a class because I felt a little dizzy, so you know, he's a tough man. But then while limping he tried to bring out another gun to show to the class. But the crowd protested. He tried to assure them that this second weapon was unloaded, but he ended his talk when the crowd continued to object. This just goes to show, even trained professionals can make mistakes with guns. They really do have no place in the classroom. Continuing on with school news, we have something that's sadly, believable, to start with. Last week, news came out that in the Saugus High School Shooting -- where two students were killed, and three were injured -- that faculty and staff used two bleeding control kits. Now these kits were a recent addition to the district and came equipped with tourniquets, compression bandages, blood clotting gauze, you know, they're all designed to prevent extreme blood loss. These kits have been pushed in school districts across the country ever since 2017, when Georgia started a statewide initiative to arm schools with quote, "stop the bleed kits." We actually mentioned this on one of our podcasts. This year, Texas, Arkansas and Indiana, each passed legislation to put them into schools, with Arkansas going so far as to make it a law that public school students have to be trained on these kits, as part of the health curriculum in order to graduate from high school. You've got to prepare for a school shooting, in order to get credit for health class. In the case of Saugus High School, however, these you know, really important kits were provided after to students who were afraid of school shootings. fundraised to keep two in the school. So quote Ky, who was on here earlier "On one hand, anything we do to save lives is good. But on the other, fundamentally, it is allowing lawmakers and officials to ignore the root cause of gun violence." It's really great that these kits were there and available. But it's awful that these kits had to exist in the first place, and that kids were scared enough to have to fund them on their own. Meanwhile, kids in Philadelphia continue to be scared. Gun violence has been and continues to be a problem in Philadelphia, one that seems to be affecting young people more and more. So far in this year alone, 110 children have been injured or killed as a result of gun violence. On Tuesday night, community members gathered at a town hall meeting that was focused on preventing gun violence that's been impacting the city's youth in a particularly hard way. One Up Church who is with the nonprofit New Options, More Opportunity said "we see there's a lot of normalcy when it comes to crime, when it comes to death. Wearing the t-shirts and going to vigils, it's become the norm, and it's become socially acceptable, even by the youth." And isn't that awful now, that it's become normal for kids now, it's normal to be afraid in school. It's normal to have to go to funerals before you go to graduation parties. It's it's really, really sad. And now our last little news update, I think shows the fact that gun violence has been a problem in this country for a really long time and continues to be. So last Sunday was the 39th anniversary of John Lennon's murder. And if you don't know who John Lennon is, I presume that you've been living with the mole people for a while, but he was a very famous singer-songwriter. His widow Yoko Ono took to social media to pay tribute to him. In particular, she tweeted out"Every day 100 Americans are shot and killed with guns. We are turning this beautiful country into a war zone. Together let's bring back America, the green land of reace." Attached, though to the tweets, was also this famous image that depicts the pair of glasses that John Lennon was wearing when he was killed, where one half is covered with blood. It's a really iconic image and a really sad one. Rext above the glasses read that more than 1.4 million people in the United States were shot and killed with guns since Lennon's assassination. So in the spirit of John Lennon, and the spirit of all of the people that we lose every day, 100 people a day to gun violence. Let's try to imagine a future for ourselves where, where we all, people who own guns, people who are great at guns, or people like me who, you know, tried to learn how to shoot to have a bonding thing with their dad, and it turns out they're very, very bad at it. You know, let's let's imagine a world where we all come together and end this epidemic of gun violence. Thanks for listening. As always, Brady's life saving work and Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible thanks to you. For more information on Brady, or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast. Come see us online at Bradyunited. org or follow us on social at @Bradybuzz. Be brave and remember -- take action -- not sides.