63: The Risk of Xenophobia, Guns, and Coronavirus

One of the disturbing responses to the COVID-19 pandemic as been xenophobic and racist attacks on members of the Asian American and Pacific Islander (AAPI) community. Incidents of hate crimes have created an atmosphere of discrimination and fear. As a result, many media outlets have reported on members of the AAPI community purchasing firearms.

To talk about the threat xenophobia, and these firearms, pose to the AAPI community, host JJ and Kelly Sampson are joined by David Inoue of the Japanese American Citizens League (JACL). Together, we discuss why guns are not the solution to COVID-19 related hate crimes.

Mentioned in this podcast:

• COVID-19 and Xenophobia (JACL)
• The Murder of Vincent Chin (ABC)
• Stop AAPI Hate (A3PCON)
• Blaming the Victim During a Time of Vulnerability (Washington Post)

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their long standing legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Transcript

JJ:   0:07
Hey everybody. This is the legal disclaimer, where we tell you that the views, thoughts and opinions shared on this podcast belongs solely to our guests and our hosts, and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note that this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay. We find it disturbing too.  

JJ:   0:41
Hey everybody, welcome back for a new episode of Red, Blue and Brady. Today we're talking about how one of the more disturbing responses to the coronavirus pandemic has been this rise of xenophobic and racist attacks on members of the Asian American and Pacific Islander, sometimes called the AAPI community. For example, incidents of spitting at Asian Americans while people are walking, while they're waiting for the subway have definitely created an atmosphere of discrimination, and in some cases there have been attacks that have been exceptionally violent. So as a result, many media outlets have reported on members of the AAPI community purchasing firearms. To talk about the threat that xenophobia and those firearms can pose to the APPI community, I am joined by the wonderful Kelly and the great David Inoue of the Japanese American Citizens League. Together, we're discussing why guns are not the solution to COVID-19 related hate crimes. So I guess to start off Kelly and David, can I have you introduce yourselves? 

Kelly:   1:43
Hi everyone, this is Kelly Sampson. I'm counsel at Brady where I focus on constitutional litigation and racial justice issues.

David Inoue:   1:51
And hi, I'm David Inoue, I'm the Executive Director of the Japanese American Citizens League, JACL. We are the oldest and largest Asian American civil rights organization in the United States. Founded in 1929, focused on a broad number of civil rights issues initially started because of the discrimination against the immigrant Japanese and Japanese American community in the country. But obviously during World War II the biggest issue that came up was the incarceration of Japanese Americans. And since then we've used that story to largely speak out on other issues of civil rights where we might find some intersection. The one thing I want to emphasize is that we are not just Japanese Americans, what's kind of central to us now is that story of Japanese American incarceration. And I don't think you need to be Japanese or Japanese Americans who recognize the atrocity that was and what a violation of civil rights it was. So we welcome anyone who is aligned with using that story, to speak out for the civil rights of others today to join us and to home help to amplify that message.

JJ:   3:03
I do think it's important we talk sort of about that idea of inclusivity a little bit within a community as well, because so I know that the acronym most often used now is AAPI--Asian American Pacific Islander community. But I want to be clear for all of our listeners that that is a huge community that encompasses a lot of different identities and a lot of different experiences. It's not a monolithic group.

David Inoue:   3:27
Yeah, absolutely. I think for the Asian American community what really kind of brought us together was initially the civil rights movement throughout the fifties and the sixties. But specifically for an Asian American community, what was really galvanizing was the murder of Vincent Chin back in the eighties, quite a few years ago. I still remember when that happened, but that was kind of particularly for me as well, because I was growing up in Cincinnati, where the federal trial for that took place. Just for the listeners who don't know about Vincent Chin. He was a Chinese American living in Detroit who was out celebrating his intending marriage and then came across several out of work autoworkers who blamed him for their unemployment. So this is during the eighties, when the wars with Japan were at their peak. So they actually, um, said that he was the reason because they thought that he was Japanese, whereas in reality was Chinese American. So they beat him to death that night. They were actually pretty much released with a slap on the wrist in the murder trial, saying that both parties were at fault and that these were good upstanding men and they just made this mistake. But Vincent Chin had also perhaps provoked them and they really got off without any sort of jail time or anything. So the federal government then brought a civil rights case against them. I believe this was one of the first times that this had happened and that trial took place in Cincinnati where I was growing up.

JJ:   5:03
Well, and something that a lot of people have pointed to is a reason of perhaps why we're seeing a rise in these really xenophobic and these racist crimes has been in the positioning of the novel coronavirus as somehow tied to an Asian ethnicity. You know, for example, we have the president tweeting out that this is the Chinese virus, not COVID-19. Do you feel like we actually have seen a rise in crimes?

David Inoue:   5:30
Yes, there are several different ways that we track this. There are several websites where people can actually report incidents on whether they be crimes or incidents. And within the last, I believe it's three or so weeks. But up through this past Friday, there were over 1600 incidents that reported since COVID had sort of come to the forefront. And this is across the country. It's not just crimes, but does include things that perhaps don't rise to a criminal level. Or it could be workplace incidents as well. I know that, um I don't know if I could probably call out my sister on this, but my sister and her workplace, the rumor actually went around her workplace that she was the one who brought COVID into her city because we as a family had gone to Japan for a visit last year. And this was back in August of last year. And yet people knew that she had been gone, that she had gone to Asia and therefore they were using this as an example of or are blaming her, essentially for having brought it into her community. So these are definitely increasing. I think what is heartbreaking is to see how severe some of these crimes are.

Kelly:   6:46
It's interesting because from things that I've read about this and also from hearing you just talk about like the story of your organization. There's this constant questioning of whether members of the APPI community are citizens and part of the body politic. And it's interesting to see how on one hand you know, our country will dehumanize people and put them forth as like a stereotype. But then, on the other hand, be afraid and backlash and sort of say, You're not like us, you're not part of us and it's, you know, whenever there's a so called threat instead of considering, Oh, we're all Americans, it's like, Well, I don't know, You know, maybe not you.

David Inoue:   7:26
Yeah, actually, I mean, it's interesting to raise that because obviously Andrew Yang, former presidential candidate, came out with an op-ed a couple weeks ago where he sort of exhorted Asian Americans to kind of do more and he actually cited the example Japanese American prisoners of war too, how many of them are second generation Japanese Americans and they were actually American citizens on, despite their families being incarcerated and imprisoned in the camps, stepped forward and fought for a country and became the most decorated per capita battalion in the army. And Andrew Yang kind of used this as the Look this is what we need to be doing right now. To have our [inaudible]. But the reality is that yeah, the veterans did that, but or those who were killed in action, their families were still notified of their son's death behind barbed wire proving our Americanness does not make us American in the eyes of some still and we will still be seen as foreign regardless. We aren't gonna change racism by what we do. Racism again, it goes to the irrationality. It's not going to look at an Asian American and say, Oh, you're being more patriotic. Therefore, I validate you as a human. And that's not the way racism works. And what we need is for allies and that was really I think the lesson that we learned from the incarceration experiences. That Japanese Americans were not going to be able to stand up for our own rights on our own. And likewise, other groups can't do that as well. The way the civil rights movement happened is by having a broad coalition of people recognizing the need for change and really denounced this type of thing. And that's where we need allies to stand up, to say no, discriminating against people because of coronavirus is wrong.

JJ:   9:16
And then one of the reasons why we so very much want to talk to you in particular about this is because one some of these hate crimes against the AAPI community have involved firearms. But also we're seeing now an increase or at least media increase in covering this idea that increasingly, members of the Asian community are purchasing firearms. And you had a beautiful piece, which I linked to in the description of this episode where you detailed how that is not an appropriate response and your concerns. And I was wondering if we could kind of go in and talk to you a little bit about what Kelly and I have talked about, which is, unfortunately, you can't shoot your way out of racism. You can't shoot your way out of xenophobia.  

David Inoue:   10:00
Yeah, obviously a violent response to violence is certainly not appropriate. I think what's troubling for me and I actually have a public health background, is that my fear is that we are essentially responding to a public health crisis that we're having with COVID by creating another one. If people are going out and buying guns to protect themselves. Handguns are, well guns are a leading cause of accidental deaths. It's likely, that's one of these people who probably has no experience with using a gun in the past, thinks they're gonna get a gun to protect themselves, and it's more likely than not that that gun will end up killing themselves or a family member. I think you know, guns and depression we all know are not a good combination and that can lead to suicide. And if there's one thing that this crisis is creating a lot in people it's depression. Whether it's people being alone, whether it's just the hopelessness of situations people are unemployed or someone's at home and there's domestic violence. Having guns in these types of situations is simply not the right thing to be doing.

JJ:   11:12
Well and I think that goes back, though to the idea as well as with gun violence, is that if you are a gun owner, I think now is the time to sort of speak up about responsible gun ownership. So letting people know that if you are buying a gun for the first time here is how you can store it properly, here's how you can safely have a gun in the home. If you have children in your home, here are people you should be calling if you're very worried because you're under a lot of financial stress right now. You're under a lot of familial stress. That has to be present too.

David Inoue:   11:46
Yeah, and that goes beyond even just addressing the gun issue. And that's addressing the other societal issues that we do have. Is the strains that families are under right now. Parents who are trying to get their work done during the day but also trying to make sure their kids are getting their work done, too. It's the mental health if you're making sure that people have access to counseling, which is even again is made even more difficult because all those sessions are probably also happening over video conference call versus going into a therapist's office. And when you mentioned the education on gun ownership, and it's making sure that people do take those steps if they are going to make those possibly life changing decision. Even if a gun is used in the way it's intended to protect oneself, that has huge implications for somebody for their future mental health. And to take someone else's life or to even enter them with the gun is not something you taken lightly. And that is a huge decision you are making when you were bringing a gun into your home because a gun only has one purpose, and that's to either kill or injure another living thing. Unless all you do is using for target practice against cans in the back yard or something.

JJ:   13:30
In which case, why are you hoarding those cans? We might need those cans.

David Inoue:   13:34
Well, I think people are going through a lot of cans right now. And when you are making that decision, you are essentially making the decision that I am willing to take somebody else's life. I oftentimes mention the fact that I'm a conscientious objector and the reason is, because it's just unfathomable for me to take someone else's life, whether that would be to serve in the military or just in any other capacity. That's for me, at least, that that's a something that I could never do this idea. Yeah, the idea of guns to protect yourself. I've heard people say that Oh, if Japanese Americans had guns to protect themselves during World War Two, the incarceration would not have happened. No, that's a ridiculous argument to me. If Japanese Americans owned guns and tried to use them to protect themselves, the U. S Army would've gone in and shot them all.  That's not the way this works, at least for minority communities. Right now we're seeing these militias or whatever, who are protesting in several states with the shelter in place orders, and they are openly parading around with guns. But if you would have minority communities, do that, um, are police would not stand for that, and it's a very different dynamic when you are a white person with a gun and when you are a minority with a gun.

Kelly:   15:06
Kind of along the lines of responding, you mentioned a little bit earlier how you know no group of people can really advocate or win rights for themselves or whatever for themselves without allies. And so I'm wondering if you could talk about what it will look like to be an ally, especially now that we're kind of all in our homes. If you're someone who cares and you want to speak out against xenophobia, you know what are some ways that you could do that?

David Inoue:   15:37
Well, I think that for one thing so much happens on the Internet, whether it's Facebook or Twitter or whatever. I think people are engaged in those types of discussions. I think too often there are conversations that happen where crazy people  starts spouting something out and people are not willing to really confront them or it becomes the the token minority person who does speak out, and then quickly they say Oh you're being too sensitive or you're just trying to stir up trouble here. You like calling everybody racist but for people who perhaps don't think that I don't want to get involved in that discussion, that is what we need you to get involved in those discussions. Because unfortunately right now, the Internet has become kind of the way that we all do communicate. We are doing this over Zoom right now. It's become this de facto communication means for everybody right now. My kids are on Zoom more than I am it seems. So I think it is for people who, particularly people who are not people of color, to be able to speak out. I think that there are those times where we are out in the public as well that I've heard just in the last week or so people going to grocery stores and being confronted in the aisles. I think it's incumbent upon corporations to train their employees to recognize when this is happening so that they can step in, but also that if you are a bystander and see something happening, to also step in and stand up for that person. And maybe it's recording it or something like that to make sure that ah, there's some sort of evidence later. I oftentimes use this example when CPR training that one of the first things your building is to identify someone to call 911 as people will not oftentimes do things on their own. And I think this is the same type of situation where people need to be called out and say, Hey, you need to stand up and say something.

JJ:   17:36
A trend that I'm hearing and seeing is that you know, when white Americans fear for their safety, they can rely not only on official law enforcement channels but also this kind of notion, at least, of you know, self defense and self protection. And both of those are kind of like they don't necessarily go unchallenged. We're seeing these protests where people are standing in front of the Capitol brandishing weapons and yet, you know, for Americans of color and you know, the AAPI community, you may not be able to count on law enforcement to protect you in the same way, and that may be driving some of these fears. Then your gun usage is probably not going to go the same way as white Americans because we are in a racist structure. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, uh, just the....

David Inoue:   18:34
The relationship between, perhaps law enforcement and people of color? One of the things I anecdotally, of course, that I've been sharing is that oftentimes there are people who are having these encounters where they are feeling threatened. And then they do report it to the police and the police are like, Well, no crime has been committed, so there's nothing I can do, just go about your life. And I think it's that dismissiveness. Um and a lot of that is...and perhaps there has not been a crime. But generally, if a threat is made of any sort of violence that is a crime. So the quickness with which I think law enforcement oftentimes dismisses the concerns of so many, even when they are confronted by this type of either harassment or violence or whatever oftentimes leads, it discourages them from actually reporting things as well. And I think that then that sense of helplessness is what leads to the Well I need to get something to protect myself because the police are not responding. Um, and we appreciate the fact that the FBI did come out with a sort of a recommendation to all their offices to be on the lookout for increasing crimes against Asian Americans, but again, but the problem with a lot of that for the FBI and for the Department of Justice is so much of that is on the back end that it is the we will prosecute these things once they happen. And what we need is community policing to actually be in the community to be protecting people. And to also understand where some of these these ideas are fomented in white supremacist groups, they're using the situation now to try and promote more division and to promotes their own ideology over any sort of actual public health concerns. And I think that the thing with COVID is that it is really revealing so much in our society right now, the disparities that do exist, whether it be in, um, attitudes towards one another as we're seeing what the attitudes of Americans. I think the response of the health care system, particularly communities of color. And the mortality rates we are seeing for African Americans is just unbelievable relative to other communities. And this also goes to gun violence too. That gun violence impacts communities of color often in very different ways than it does white communities as well.

JJ:   21:28
Yeah, I think COVID has pointed out in numerous ways sort of a lot of the structural inequalities that have been present for a really long time. But for a lot of individuals who don't live with those inequalities, maybe weren't aware of them. Ah, maybe purposely not aware of them. But they've been made very present.

David Inoue:   21:46
What I think, actually, even within the Asian Pacific American Committee, we're even seeing this revelation that there are many, um, Asian Americans who have bought into this model minority myth idea that they see themselves as being essentially white, that look I fit in. I made it. I'm doing well as an Asian American, but that doesn't protect them from the racism that now is being directed towards us as a community. Um, that's it doesn't matter what your ideology is, how successful you might be, that people still see that Asian face. And I think that it's impacting some Asian Americans now that perhaps do not recognize racism in the past, and my hope is that it might help to kind of bring some of those members of the community around to recognizing that we do need to work together to fight racism. And it's not something that you can beat by by your own actions that that it is in the hearts of other people that they have that hatred.

JJ:   22:52
I mean super well said. I cannot thank you and Kelly enough for coming on today and for helping us start talking about, like this really complicated topic and a very complicated time.  

JJ:   23:07
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JJ:   23:46
Thanks for listening. As always, Brady's life saving work in Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible thanks to you for more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast, get in touch with us at Bradyunited.org or on social @Bradybuzz. Be brave and remember, take action, not sides.