64: The Dual Threats of Guns and Coronavirus

The coronavirus pandemic has led to a rise in reported xenophobic and racist attacks on members of the Asian American and Pacific Islander (AAPI) community. Today, we continue our discussion on how incidents of hate crimes against the AAPI community are up, as is fear within the community that firearms will be used against them.

To talk about the duel threats of xenophobia and guns to the AAPI community, host JJ and Kelly Sampson  are joined by Dr. Russel Jeung, Chair and Professor of Asian American Studies at San Francisco State University. Together, we discuss why rhetoric and guns has the potential to be just as--if not more so--dangerous than a virus. 

Mentioned in this podcast:
Stop AAPI Hate (A3PCON)
STOP AAPI HATE Reporting Center (Chinese for Affirmative Action)
New Trump Attack Ad Appears to Suggest Gary Locke is a Chinese Official (Seattle Times)
"They look at me and think I'm some kind of virus": What it's like to be Asian during the coronavirus pandemic (USA Today)

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their long standing legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Transcript

JJ:   0:09
Hey everybody. This is the legal disclaimer, where we tell you that the views, thoughts and opinions shared on this podcast belongs solely to our guests and our hosts, and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note that this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay. We find it disturbing too.  

JJ:   0:42
Welcome back, everyone to Red, Blue and Brady. Today we're continuing our conversation about how one of the most disturbing responses to the COVID-19 pandemic has been an increase in xenophobic and racist attacks on members of the Asian American and Pacific Islander, the AAPI community. Incidents of hate crimes against the AAPI community are up, as this fear that firearms are going to be used against them. To talk about the threat of xenophobia and guns to the AAPI community, Kelly and I are joined by Dr. Russell Jeung, who is chair professor of Asian American studies at San Francisco State University. Then on our Unbelievable, But segment we detail yet again why guns are not toys. Finally, our news wrap up continues with those fighting gun violence during a pandemic and remembrance of a mass shooting.  

JJ:   1:34
So in only its first week of being live, the website Stop AAPI Hate, where members of the AAPI community can track xenophobic or racist hate violence done against them, they've had over 100 reports a day. Some of these threats have involved firearms, and that's really, really concerning. So I want to jump right into the conversation about not just about these threats, but the role that firearms play in this really complicated time. So to start professor, can I have you introduced yourself to our listeners?

Russell Jeung:   2:05
Dr. Russell Jeung, chair and professor of Asian American Studies at San Francisco State University.

JJ:   2:11
And I want to really thank you so much, Dr. Jeung, for coming on. I know that this is a hard time, especially for I mean for everyone. But I know academics have had to very much, especially teaching once, completely revamp everything in a very short amount of time. So we really appreciate you taking the time to add this to your I'm sure already overwhelmed bandwidth.

Russell Jeung:   2:31
Yeah, well, thanks for having me. And, well, it's an important issue.

JJ:   2:34
And then, Kelly, would you like to introduce yourself to our audience? Although they should know you by now, because you and also because you're fabulous.  

Kelly:   2:39
Well, thanks, JJ. I'm Kelly. I am council here at Brady, where I focus on constitutional litigation and racial justice issues.

JJ:   2:47
And I think, you know, just to jump right into it. Professor, you've done such amazing work, and I'm gonna cite some of the things that you've written and talked about later. But I'm wondering if we could just start right off by you talking about the work that you've done with the Stop AAPI Hate website.

Russell Jeung:   3:03
Sure. When the pandemic hit and we knew that it was going to spread, I also knew by teaching Asian American studies that Asian Americans would be scapegoated and would be victims or targets of racial violence. And so we quickly began to document any xenophobic or racist incidents. And in news accounts, we saw a 50% increase. Once we were able to document that, we created a reporting center called Stop AAPI Hate with two civil rights organizations, Chinese for Affirmative Action and the Asian Pacific Policy and Planning Council to collect firsthand accounts. And then within the first couple of weeks without advertising, we got hundreds of responses of Asian Americans wanting to share their stories of being harassed, shunned, having their civil rights violated and even being physically assaulted. What's harrowing and actually really sad is that a lot of times children and elderly were involved and present. A lot of times people were coughing and spitting on Asians. And so it's a real, demeaning, dehumanizing trend that I think a lot of Asian Americans or most Asian Americans are going through now.

JJ:   4:16
One of the things I wanted to highlight real quickly is that I don't think that most Americans who are not members of the AAPI community, I don't think they're realizing the volume of hate crimes that are being reported or of incidents that maybe don't rise to the level of legally defined as a hate crime, but are very clearly incidents of xenophobia or racism that are being targeted on the AAPI community. Because looking at the website in the reports that are coming in, it's a lot. It's a very high volume and I just don't think that it's getting reported to the same degree as say, other incidences are.

Russell Jeung:   4:52
Right. I think it's pervasive and widespread that most Asian Americans are like one degree of separation from a family member or friend who's been attacked, or shunned. And these aren't microaggressions, they're actually again virulent, hate filled interactions where people yell and traumatize Asian Americans. So it's 90% of Asian Americans fear racial bias during the pandemic now. And so it is a real stress filled and anxious time for this community. You know, we're already afraid of getting the disease we're afraid of our family's getting disease. A lot of my students talk about the fear of spreading it to their elders. We're disproportionately impacted economically because people are boycotting our businesses, Asian restaurants, nail salons and then we have to, on top of all these other stressors, have to fear being attacked. And so you know, I know Asians wonder, should I wear a mask or not? You know what are the risks? The risk are I could get the disease if I don't wear a mask, but I could get attacked by wearing a mask. And so people, Asians are suppressing coughs because they're fearful of being attacked. And that's sort of the now sort of normed experience for Asians during the pandemic.

Kelly:   6:03
It's also really striking that you mentioned that there was a significant amount of incidents that involve spitting or coughing, which I can imagine only adds to the fear because they could be spreading, you know that person who's doing that could be spreading the virus too. In addition to hate crimes.

Russell Jeung:   6:23
Right, it's, um, spitting and coughing, is an assault. But it's also a public health threat. And in somewhere on the East Coast, a European American got arrested for coughing on produce and on the white cashier and was charged with terrorism. But, you know, you could say then that's happening every day across the country to Asian Americans; so we're being subjected to mass terrorism, if you're gonna arrest someone for coughing and spitting. We've received reports from 45 states and we didn't even publicize our site, so we just get a tip of the iceberg of the issues going on out there.

JJ:   6:59
I say this a lot on this podcast, but it's just it's awfulness upon awfulness because I think one of the things that's become really clear, COVID-19 has really revealed is the deep, deep structural inequalities that a lot of European Americans were able to possibly by choice overlook, but that have now become very, very present. And one of the things that we really wanted to talk to you about is this, like history of xenophobic or racist responses that the AAPI community has had to deal with. This is not the first time in U.S. history, although this may certainly be the largest.

Russell Jeung:   7:35
Actually, although you're right, history is repeating itself, and I don't know if this is a largest response, but it can be. It's beginning to be. In the 19th century, there was a yellow peril stereotype that Asia was coming, threatening the West with world domination, and they would come with their hordes of people, especially with their diseases and overthrow the West. And so this fear of Asian people and the fear of diseases was used as a basis for the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882. And so they passed that legislation, the first immigration policy directed at a racial group. But accompanying that policy was 300 cases of Chinese villages and settlements being burned out or pushed out of the community. So my own family was pushed out of Monterey, California because of that virulent anti-Asian hostility. In 1900, the bubonic plague came to the United States, and again the Chinese were blamed. And so health officials burned down Honolulu Chinatown, leaving 7000 people homeless which was stupid, right? Because it just spread the rats who actually had the disease. In San Francisco they quarantined all of Chinatown and let the white people out. But they left 30,000 Chinese there. It's just like again making them shelter in place in quarantine so that they could get the disease. And so health policies [inaudible] to exclude Chinese, to quarantine Chinese, to detain Chinese on Angel Island immigrant center and again to quarantine them. On Angel Island at the immigration center, if you had a parasite, you could be sent back to China. And you know it happened again during SARS, harassed for bringing SARS. And now, today, you know, Trump just announced an immigration ban, so you see a disease is used, is associated with a group of people, and then policies get enacted and racial violence follows. So this China bashing and the term 'China virus' these words matter. They actually have life or death consequences for Asian Americans. So we're seeing that pattern of history repeat itself. But throughout history, Asians have combated that racism too. So I want to say that's another part of history that's being repeated. During the Chinese Exclusion Act, Chinese filed 10,000 appeals to that law. They engaged in a mass boycott against American goods and 97% of the Chinese in America engaged in civil disobedience and didn't register with the government like the law required them to. So we've historically resisted this discrimination even today now. As we face current racism, I think I see our community really standing up and challenge both racist speech and workplace violations and physical assaults and hate crimes.

Kelly:   10:26
That kind of segues into, you know, different ways that members of the AAPI community have sought to resist this. And one of the kind of anecdotal reports that we've seen are, you know, increasing numbers of Asian Americans purchasing guns in response to xenophobia and threats and hate crimes. And I was wondering, what are your thoughts on that? 

Russell Jeung:   10:49
I think they're sensationalist reports of Asians buying guns that harkens to the LA riots when the media portrayed Koreans standing on top of the rooftops of their stores with guns, but actually 80% of Asian Americans want stronger gun control laws. We come from countries that don't have guns. We come from countries that are a lot more safe than the United States. And so overall, most Asian Americans support stronger gun control laws. I don't think Asian Americans need to prove themselves to be more American in order to get dignity and respect. I don't think Asian Americans should be having to protect themselves. I think that's government's responsibility to secure public safety. And you know, this issue isn't an Asian American issue. It's other people's issue with us. We're not the ones who are being racist. It's other people. And so I think government and broader society needs to be held accountable to address the problem. It's not again Asian American should take matters into their own hands. Other communities have to take matters into their own hands and address, their own racism and racial profiling and implicit biases.

JJ:   11:57
Are you at all concerned not on the purchasing of guns that have been reported from members of the AAPI community, but reports of guns being purchased at a higher rate than ever by Americans who identify as European Americans who are saying that they're buying guns because they're afraid they're buying guns because they're concerned they want to find some sort of way to protect themselves from a virus. So they're purchasing weapons to do that. Does that concern you at all that we could be seeing, you know, increased violence against the AAPI community from firearms?

Russell Jeung:   12:33
Yeah, I'm totally afraid. So here's my little anecdote. And just before shelter in place got, um, enacted, I went to a sporting goods shop and my son and I got in line at the cashier. We were six feet apart from someone, but that person in front of us consciously moved away from us even though we were six feet away already. So both he and I were instantly aware, Oh wow, this person's sort of moving away and probably just because we are Asian. On the other side of the sporting goods shop were all these people lining up for ammunition. So if you're Asian, you make this association, Wow people are moving away from us because they see us as a threat. Wow, all these people are buying guns and ammunition, and they see us as a threat. How am I supposed to feel if people see us as a threat? If the president continually makes us the threat and you know a lot of gun violence isn't you know, for protection. What happens is you get these accidents. And so I don't think a bullets going to stop a virus. I don't think a bullet [inaudible] but a bullet can harm innocent bystanders. And I think it's just a matter of time that you'll see a death of an Asian American because of this racism. A family in Texas, they weren't even Chinese, they are refugees from Burma. They were at Sam's Club. They got stabbed and slashed in the head, including a two year old and a six year old, because the assailant thought they were Chinese. And so again, people may just point a gun towards you, but it may go off. People may throw rocks and bottles at us but they may actually really hurt an elderly person, so I just think it's a matter of time where we see someone passed away tragically because of people's fears and then people's anger and scapegoating. I think what's operating now is a lot of racial profiling where people aren't intentionally being racist. But they are operating racially, where they see an Asian looking person, and they make automatic assumptions about them that they may be infected, that they may be more likely to be a disease carrier and therefore automatically think Oh, they're a greater threat. And they go into flight or fight mode they either shun you and stay away from you automatically or they attack you. And that's what's happening. Both the way political rhetoric and media are constructing this disease and racializing the disease as a Chinese virus then leads to the racial profiling of Chinese people and Chinese in America and Asians in America.

Kelly:   15:03
So you mentioned earlier the very good point about, you know, sensational reporting and kind of the way that the country and the rhetoric that we use on one hand wants to other and alienate people. But then, on the other hand, wash its hands of any responsibility about protecting them. So I'm wondering what can people do right now? And what can the government be doing right now to protect people from hate crimes and from this rhetoric?

Russell Jeung:   15:32
Yeah, I think there's a range of things government can do, and that's what we're trying to do with my organizations to hold government accountable. On the hate crime level they gotta have better enforcement, right? And, uh, people aren't reporting to police. But they report to us because we're a more trusted community organization because we have 10 different languages. Because we're going to respond to their concerns. Whereas people don't report to police because they're not trusted and they're not seen as being responsive. So government should be more responsive clearly on that level. Fair employment departments and the attorneys generals need to ensure that Asian Americans have safe accommodations in stores. That's where a lot of confrontations are taking place because that's the only place we do interact with people. But they could put up sign just like to say six feet apart. They could put up signs that says respect your fellow customer, right? But they could be proactive in not condoning racism. Um, schools could have more anti bullying campaigns and ethnic studies that talk about the sources of racism, how to deal with it and how to build empathy. So we're calling on all levels of government to be proactive, whatever their agency, whether it's protecting the elderly or whether it's human relations commissions. There's a lot of agencies that can be a lot more proactive in government and address issue rather than being reactive to it.

Kelly:   16:58
You mentioned too you know that people are reporting to your organization rather than law enforcement in many ways because of a lack of trust. And I know at least in my experience, you know, growing up here, I to the extent that I hear about communities mistrusting police, most often I hear about either, you know, Black communities or Latinx communities, and to some degree, people will talk about immigrant communities. But they'll often almost put, immigrant as synonymous with Latino when it comes to police relations. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about you know, what is driving trust or some of the issues around trust between, you know, Asians and police or officials.

Russell Jeung:   17:44
Well, historically, at least, the Chinese community we were unauthorized, undocumented people as well and you know, we weren't allowed to become naturalized. We were excluded. So the people who were able to come, came as paper sons and daughters. And because we were undocumented then we didn't like to deal with the police. And again the police harassed us for gambling. And for again, you know, to enforce health policies that are aimed against us. So police are simply agents of discrimination for laws that were passed against us. So historically, there's no reason to work with the police. We come from countries where government is more authoritarian, so we don't really deal with government from those countries. Um, and now government agencies and police aren't necessarily culturally responsive. They don't speak our languages. And so in large cities don't do anything. And so it's sort of a waste of time to deal with the police. So I think there's multiple reasons why people don't report, are suspicious and don't expect much from the American government.

JJ:   18:48
Do you think that some of this continued police mistrust or sort of government mistrust comes in part from xenophobic messaging used by those in power? You know, obviously, for example, I'm thinking of the Trump administration, continuing to call the novel coronavirus, not COVID-19 but instead to call it the China virus.

Russell Jeung:   19:08
Yeah, it has an impact. Like I said, historically, after a pandemic, you both have inter personal violence and community violence and racist policies, and that's what's happening today. Again, Trump is banning all immigrants, um, to fight. I mean, he's not looking for more testing. He's not looking for more equipment. He's trying to just blame immigrants for the pandemic. And so that's a terrible policy that has no impact at all. It's simply, you know, scapegoating. Other policies that were instituted right after 9/11 we could see happening again really easily to the Asian American community. What happened to the Arab and Muslim and South Asian communities after 9/11. So already the government's racially profiling these American scientists and I could see that racial profiling and surveillance of Asians increasing. Already we're getting banned and excluded in terms of immigration, and that was already proposed. Um, you could see, you know, we have the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two. I could see it really easily where Asian Americans could be required to be quarantined even more. And then you could see there was mass violence against Asians throughout history. And I could see a mass shooter attack an Asian faith based establishment, you know? So all the things that we've seen in the past, I think we should be ready to expect now. Like you said it's gonna get worse because it's a campaign issue. It's gonna get worse because the economy is tanking. It's going to get worse for Asians because more deaths from COVID-19 are gonna occur. So the longer were sheltered in place I think that hate will just grow. And as politicians use it for their own political interests to blame us, we're gonna be scapegoated even more and targeted even more so I just expect it.

Kelly:   21:01
And it I mean, especially when you talk about mass shootings. That's definitely a pattern that we have seen where you know, Christ church shooter cited in the United States or Charleston. You know, he was citing some of these hate groups here, so it yeah, it definitely I think that intersection especially obviously that we focus on gun violence, and we definitely do see a direct link between rhetoric and then our kind of permissive gun policy, allowing people to take what they think is the direct action from that rhetoric and that's to hurt people.

Russell Jeung:   21:39
900% increase in hate speech against Chinese online. So when Trump uses, the term Chinese virus it would [inaudible] Twitter and how often that's associated with other kinds of hate speech that are used by terrorist groups or hate groups. So it is using that type of language has like death consequences because it gives people license to think in a different way, you know, one clear example is one of Trump's most recent ads against Biden. He says, Biden's weak on China and he shows a picture of him with Chinese officials. The thing is the picture didn't depict a Chinese official. It was a Chinese American governor and so again, they're conflating Chinese people with Chinese Americans and conflating Chinese government with Chinese Americans. And so Trump doesn't recognize the difference of his own citizens that he supposed to represent, but instead he sort of lumping them all together as outsiders who are again our enemies, and invisible enemies that we need to ban. And so again, it's strategic. It's deflecting blame and responsibility for how he handles the pandemic. It, even though he was called to attention that Asians in America are being attacked, he continued to persist in using that type of language, and he's using it now to rile up his base.

JJ:   23:03
Well and what gets me, too, is that all of this racism messaging is in itself racist because it's not focusing on all the ways in which COVID-19 is attacking non-European American communities.

Russell Jeung:   23:16
Right. And the fear is that the media would like to heighten and report on the violence rather than again, like you talked about the systemic inequalities that COVID-19 is revealing. You know, African Americans being infected at much higher rates. Latinos being more economically hard hit Asian Americans being scapegoated. So COVID-19 is just like you feel it in the ugliness of America, even though at the same time you see signs of hope and generosity and solidarity during this sort of darker times.

JJ:   23:47
I'm wondering if on, sort of then the uplifting note of hoping to move away from these darker times. If you can suggest to our listeners one if they're worried about or have experienced a hate incident, what they could be doing? But also two, what people who want to be good allies, what they could be doing in this time, you know, other than obviously supporting businesses and speaking out against hate speech.

Russell Jeung:   24:15
If you're an impacted individual or a bystander to a hate incident, my recommendation is that the bystander check in with the impacted individual rather than trying to engage the perpetrator or the assailant. That's it's gives him or her more voice, more power, more opportunity to share their ideas and express them. But instead by checking in with the impacted individual that gives you greater numbers. That helps that individual assess what's going on. And that helps individual, if you ask, find a safe way out of the situation. You know, a lot of times this happens in school yards when you're a kid and you know they're bullies and you just sort of brush off bullies. But when adults are bullying and harassing you, it's more shocking. It's more stunning, and so people need the opportunity to process what happened so that they don't internalize it and they need that social support. So I think that's how others can help the allies to Asian Americans at this time and at the same time again hold government accountable to secure the public safety that will guaranteed to. And to call on government to be proactive in addressing the inequalities that we're seeing through COVID-19. Yeah, I think again, history's repeating itself and we're seeing xenophobia, racism, coming out in terms of policy and coming out in terms of violence. But what we've learned from history is that communities do resist this violence and these policies. And what happened in the 19th century is that the white working man's party quickly faded. And my hope is that sort of the sort of racist moment in America will also fade quickly, especially as new communities become part of the electorate and as they vote with their consciences.

JJ:   26:16
Yeah, I think that's in particular something really important to remember that, especially as really vital elections come up that we remember to vote even if it becomes very difficult or if it's, you know, new like write in vote, who knows? And on that note, I unfortunately have to let you both go. But Kelly, Professor, thank you both so much for coming on. This was wonderful and so important to talk about.

JJ:   26:43
I know we all can't wait until the days of physical distancing are over. I know that I'm starting to go a little stir crazy, and we can once again come together. But let the story serve as a reminder to you for what not to do when the time comes. So what started out as an innocent water gun fight at a family barbecue in Texas, Pre-COVID, of course, ended with a trip to the hospital for one teenager. A 15 year old girl was playing with water guns at a party in a Houston suburb when she was shot by an actual bullet. Witnesses say that an adult male went to his car for some dry clothes and then took out his handgun and began playing with it, twirling it to be exact. And, of course, the gun suddenly went off. Two bullets were discharged, one hitting the teen girl and the other hitting a parked car five houses down the road. The girl was taken to a hospital and is in stable condition, but the gun twirling man has been charged with deadly conduct.  

JJ:   27:44
Okay, so this happens rarely, but I am starting this news wrap up with some good news. This week, the Virginia General Assembly passed two more gun violence prevention measures that complete the remaining legislative efforts by Governor Ralph Northam to enact stronger firearm laws in the state, except for a ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines. One of the bills will allow localities to regulate firearms and public buildings, parks, recreation centers and during permitted events. The other bill requires individuals under protective orders to turn over their firearms within 24 hours and prove that they've done so or face being held in contempt of court for non compliance. These gun measures drew the ire of President Donald Trump on Saturday, who argued that Virginia wants to quote violate your Second Amendment. They're trying to take away your guns at Virginia and if people in Virginia aren't careful, that's what's going to happen to them, end quote, Trump said during a White House task force briefing on coronavirus. Meanwhile, the surge in gun sales our nation has seen during the coronavirus pandemic has prompted parents of one of the Parkland school shooting victims to take action. Manuel and Patricia Oliver lost their son, Joaquin, in the 2018 mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. Recently, they launched a new campaign that aims to stop two things. The spread of germs and the spread of gun violence. They started making batches of guns shaped soaps package with a powerful message, quote: The more this disappears, the safer our lives will be. End quote. They hope that as the soap vanishes so will gun violence. However, gun violence continues in. Chicago, Auburn Gresham is now reeling from the coronavirus. One section of the neighborhood has logged at least 487 infection so far and for a while had more infections than any other zip code in the city, mayor Lori Lightfoot deemed 200 street outreach workers as essential, providing them letters to show police if they're stopped for being outside during their work. The hope was that during the regular outings into the neighborhoods, they would continue to deter violence and now they could also inform people about how to stay healthy during the pandemic. In the coming months, these workers are going to be a lifeline for some of these communities. Street outreach workers are educating people about the coronavirus as a natural extension of their work in dealing with gun violence, which they view as its own kind of public health epidemic. Finally, we need to mark the memory of the Waffle House shooting. On April 22nd 2018 a mass shooting occurred at a Waffle House restaurant in Nashville, Tennessee. Four victims were killed and two suffered gunshot wounds. The shooter, armed with a semiautomatic rifle, was rushed by an unarmed customer, James Shaw Jr. who wrestled the weapon away, interrupting the shooting spree.  

JJ:   30:30
Looking from work on violence prevention content, try audible. Audible content includes more than 250,000 audiobooks and spoken word audio products. Right now I'm listening to Fight like a Mother by Shannon Watts, because I think we all need a little inspiration right now. Currently, Brady listeners can get a special 30 day trial and free audiobook by going to www.audible.com/bradyathome..  

JJ:   30:53
Thanks for listening. As always, Brady's life saving work in Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible thanks to you for more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcast, get in touch with us at Bradyunited.org or on social @Bradybuzz. Be brave and remember, take action, not sides.