68: The Hidden History of the Jackson State Shooting

On the evening of May 14, 1970, dozens of police officers, responding to reports of rioting and unrest, descended on the Jackson State campus in Jackson, Mississippi, armed with not just their standard service weapons but shotguns and submachine guns as well. Equipped more like soldiers than police and accompanied by an armored vehicle the city, these men, all of whom were white, approached a crowd of students, all of whom were black, and without cause or provocation barraged the young men and women with 28 straight seconds of gunfire, injuring 12 and killing 2.

Though it occurred not even two weeks after the infamous Kent State shooting, Americans do not remember the massacre at Jackson State nearly as well, if at all — a fact possibly related to the former's victims being white northerners and the latter's being black southerners. To discuss the Jackson State shootings and how race is involved in both revealing and concealing the event, JJ welcomes aboard Kelly Sampson, Brady legal counsel; Cordy Galligan, Brady's Vice President of Communications; and Dr. Nancy Bristow, Chair of the History Department at the University of Puget Sound and author of Steeped in the Blood of Racism: Black Power, Law and Order, and the 1970 Shootings at Jackson State College.

Mentioned in this podcast:

• Memories of the Jackson State Shooting, 50 years ago (Clarion Ledger)
• Gibbs, Green Shooting (Jackson State)
• Remembering the Jackson State Shooting (the Nation)
• 50 Years After the Jackson State Killings, America's Crisis of Racial Injustice Continues—and Shows the Danger of Forgetting (Time)

For more information on Brady, follow us on social @Bradybuzz, or via our website at bradyunited.org. Full transcripts and bibliography available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells, for their long standing legal support 
℗&©20

Transcript

JJ (00:08): 
Hey everybody, this is the legal disclaimer, where we tell you that the views, thoughts, and opinions shared in this podcast belong solely to our guests and hosts and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note this podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay, we find it disturbing too. 
 
JJ (00:41): 
Welcome back everybody to Red, Blue and Brady. 50 years ago in the early hours of May 15th, 1970, 21 year old pre-law student, Phillip Lafayette Gibbs, and 17 year old Jim Hill high school student James Earl Green were shot and killed by law enforcement on the campus of Jackson State College in Jackson, Mississippi. It was just 11 days after the Kent state shooting, which has loomed large in memories of the seventies, but far fewer people know about the shooting at Jackson State. Why is that? To find out Kelly, Cordy and I are joined by historian Nancy Bristow, author of the book Steeped in the Blood of Racism, Black Power, Law and Order, and the 1970 Shootings at Jackson State College. Then, in our Unbelievable, But segment, you're going to hear a story about how guns and romance don't mix. Finally, in our news wrap up, we're bringing you two stories that demand our attention. So Nancy, let's just jump right into it. Can I have you introduce yourself to our listeners? 
 
Nancy Bristow (01:39): 
Yes. My name is Nancy Bristow. I'm an a historian and a professor at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington, and the author of Steeped in the Blood of Racism, Black Power, Law and Order, and the 1970s shootings at Jackson State College from Oxford University Press. 
 
JJ (01:55): 
And I have to tell you, I bought the book probably about a week ago and it's amazing. I was shocked by the number of things that I did not know that I read. And then I promised Kelly that she could have it after me. 
 
Nancy Bristow (02:10): 
I'm glad it's a story people should know, but as you suggest, it is largely unknown. Um, and certainly in the white community. 
 
JJ (02:17): 
Well, and I think sort of to help us navigate through some of those unknowns, I'm joined by two other phenomenal people from Brady. And so maybe Kelly and Cordy, can you introduce yourselves? We're having a very girl centric episode. I like it. 
 
Kelly (02:30): 
Hi everyone. My name is Kelly Sampson. I'm an attorney here at Brady where I focus on constitutional issues and also racial justice. 
 
Cordy (02:36): 
And I'm Cordy Galligan and I have the extreme pleasure of working with Kelly and JJ every day. I head up communications at Brady. 
 
JJ (02:46): 
And I think it's so great that both of you are with Nancy and I, because a lot of the questions I have for you, Nancy, and I think a lot of the questions that Kelly has for you deal with this intersection of racial justice and the media and history and how we frame things. So maybe to jump right off, I was wondering, you know, could you tell us and our listeners, what got you interested in the shootings at Jackson State to start? And why did you decide to write a book on this? 
 
Nancy Bristow (03:14): 
Well, in some ways it comes from my teaching life. I teach African American history and one of the themes that just runs through that history is the ongoing violence faced by people of color in the United States, with a history, of course, running all the way back to slavery. And this particular case is largely unknown by the American public, even as it really speaks to so many of the important themes around state violence against African-Americans. I was interested, especially in writing something around issues of state violence in the late sixties and seventies, because there's kind of an explosion of it against students and activists incarcerated during civil disturbances. And there's this new use of a language of sort of law and order that is brought in to defend this violence. And I, in some ways I see that as the forerunners of the crisis we face today. And so this one just really spoke to me and the folks at Jackson State were really helpful. There were good resources there. There were individuals there who really supported my work. So it just seemed like a natural place for me to really focus my attention and my interest in this ongoing crisis. 
 
Kelly (04:21): 
What happened on May 15th, 1970 at Jackson State? 
 
Nancy Bristow (04:27): 
Well, it was a second night of conflict with law enforcement on the campus. To make any sense of the events you need to know that the campus was bisected by a street called Lynch street named after the first African American Congressman John R. Lynch from Mississippi during the reconstruction era. But it was a constant site of trouble because white commuters would race through campus from their suburban homes in the West and downtown. And they would often yell racial epithets at the students. They might even throw things at them and they certainly endangered them with the way that they drove. And every now and then this would reach a boiling point and kids, local kids or students would throw rocks at white motorists. And that happened on the night of May 13th. So they brought in police, they closed off the road. It was a little bit of trouble, but things calmed. So that by morning of May 14th, it was a quiet morning. Students were getting ready for finals. Graduation was looming. The president asks the police to close off the road for that night, but prioritizing the commuters the police said, no. Unfortunately again, a few rocks were thrown. The street was closed, but a small group of young people. And they still argue over who that was, drove a dump truck from a nearby construction site and lit it on fire in front of a mens dorm on the Western edge of the campus. That meant a fire truck had to be brought, which then brought the Mississippi highway and safety patrol and the Jackson City police to campus. They were there to protect the firetruck, which they did. The fire was easily doused and the fire truck left. Rather than leaving to the periphery of the campus, which were their orders, both the highway patrol and the city police choose instead to march provocatively into the middle of campus. And they stop in front of a womens dormitory, Alexander Hall. This is a completely different set of kids where a couple blocks away from where the earlier trouble had been. These are kids just hanging out. As one guy says, you know, I was there because that's where all the girls are. That's where all the lovers were. People are hanging out. It's a warm Mississippi evening and they look up and there's a phalanx of offers coming at them. They stop in front of the West wing of the dorm. They turn with their guns leveled and a bottle crashes on the pavement. And at this point a barrage explodes for 28 seconds. They fire more than 150 rounds leaving 400 plus bullet and buckshot marks on the side of the dormitory, two young men dead and 12 others wounded. 
 
JJ (06:56): 
Well, and I mean, Cordy, you've worked in gun violence prevention for a while. So I think you can even comment on 28 seconds is a very long time for there to be shooting 
 
Cordy (07:06): 
Barrage. Yeah. It's amazing. As you're telling that story, I'm just thinking to so many similarities. The Kent State shooting was literally also initiated by, you know, throwing rocks and it's, it just dumbfounds me that throwing rocks is met with gunfire with students and the similarities are frightening to the point of the retreating and then opening fire. You know the same thing happened at Kent state. The students were throwing rocks. The what was it? One thousand national guard that were mobilized, retreated up the hill and then turned around and open fire. You just wonder what the mindset was for armed forces to unleash that kind of savagery on people. 
 
Nancy Bristow (08:07): 
What I would suggest, what's really important to note here is that the kids in front of Alexander Hall were not armed with rocks. They were simply enjoying the evening. They were a couple of blocks removed from the side of earlier trouble. And as you say, had there been rocks, it's still completely inconceivable. But in this case, they had gone against orders to march into the middle of a campus to confront a group of students who were doing nothing wrong were threatening no one, who were enjoying the evening and then they opened fire on them. 
 
JJ (08:37): 
And I wonder in reading, it's shocking how I hate to phrase it, but how outgunned, because these students didn't have weapons, these students were, there was a tank present. 
 
Nancy Bristow (08:47): 
That's true. In fact, that's one of the things that I think makes it clear the ways in which law enforcement was completely out of line and were in fact completely responsible for what took place here. They were really panicky about the students at Jackson State. So they came in, you know, completely misunderstanding what was going on at campus. They were confused about their orders because they didn't prepare adequately. They armed themselves as if for a military invasion with the city armored tank bought in anticipation of freedom summer in 1964, no less. The officers, both the police and the highway patrol are armed with shotguns with heavy buckshots. They also had with them two submachine guns and two rifles with armor piercing bullets. And then of course they broke every protocol of crowd control and opened fire on unarmed young people because they were seeing them as dangerous when they were anything but. These were college kids enjoying an evening. Jackson State College was at this point, the largest historically black college or university in the state of Mississippi. It had been founded during the reconstruction era to serve the recently freed people. It had been under private control up until the eve of the second world war when it was moved under state control. At that point, then it is a historically black college, the kids who go to school are all African American, but it is controlled by an all white board of trustees of institutions, of higher learning in the state of Mississippi. So it's a place filled with a lot of first generation to college kids, many of them, the children of sharecroppers who are in a sense the hope for their families. It is a school that has grown in size, both in terms of its infrastructure over the preceding 30 years, but also in terms of the numbers of students that had doubled in size in less than a decade, I think literally over three or four years and had about 4,300 students or so in May of 1970. So it was a historically Black college in a city, well known for its racism in perhaps the most rabidly racist state in the country. And that tells you then a little bit about the kinds of restrictions that these students faced on their behavior. If they were involved in civil rights activism earlier in the decade, for instance, they were thrown out of school. So what was the changing campus? A campus that previously had been under really tight control and by 1970, perhaps was beginning to be seen as a locus where young African Americans really could get a high quality education and where they might also be thinking of themselves as young African American students. 
 
Cordy (11:32): 
I remember watching the news that night and, you know, the Kent State response to Nixon's decision to invade Cambodia after he had in essence campaigned on getting us out of the Vietnam war. And this broke the news that day, and you know, that was the time when the stories that broke our news cycle were assassinations and just hugely important events and Kent State was all over the news. And yet two weeks later Jackson State happened and I swear to you, I mean, it's some faulty memory of a ten-year-old many years later, but I don't recall this story making the news at all. 
 
Nancy Bristow (12:23): 
And interestingly, like, I can join you in that, that has the faulty memory of a 12 year old, perhaps I have no memory of it either. In fact, it did get national news coverage. It was on all three of the major broadcast networks at the time it was on, was in the leading newspapers like the New York times, the LA times. What it didn't get was the same kind of banner headlines, the same kind of leading position on the news shows perhaps, but it did get some attention at the time. The reality though, is that it is quickly forgotten. You're absolutely correct. When I ask my students or when they ask their parents, um, it's usually a student of color whose family has a recollection of it. And even then, that's not always the case. It just gets forgotten in the broader national atmosphere. Though It's well remembered of course, by people in Jackson and particularly at Jackson State College now, Jackson State University. 
 
JJ (13:17): 
Well, and there had been killings of students on college campuses prior to even Kent State that hadn't gotten this sort of level of attention, correct? 
 
Nancy Bristow (13:28): 
It's really important to note that in some ways the Jackson state shooting is a later shooting. The one that I think we should all be remembering is in February1968 at South Carolina state at Orangeburg, when in fact police opened fire on students who had been protesting segregation at a local bowling alley. The night that the shootings happened, they'd actually retreated to their own campus for a demonstration, which was then invaded essentially by law enforcement. By the end of it, they had killed three young people and at least 27 of them were injured. And many of them actually were shot in the back, those who were trying to run away from law enforcement. There was a great deal of protest in the black community at the time, but almost no media attention in the white media. It took the white students at Kent State being shot for the nation to realize that these kinds of things happened in our country. 
 
Kelly (14:20): 
That makes sense. When I think about kind of the context at the time where you had, you're coming off, you know, the 60's and Jim Crow and there's image after image of black people of all ages kind of being brutalized and killed. And obviously, I mean, I know the images from Selma, for example, did kind of galvanize some people to kind of realize what the level of brutality, but I could also see how, in some ways it would be the norm and not necessarily shock in the same way that Kent State did. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the distinctions between Jackson State and Kent State. I know we've touched on them, but how are they kind of materially different events? 
 
Nancy Bristow (15:04): 
And I really appreciate that question because I think it's an important one. And I think the scholars who study Kent State would agree with me on this, actually for those who are interested, there's a marvelous book called Kent State by the historian Thomas Grace, he was himself victimized at Kent State and has written a terrific book on that shooting. The thing that's most important to note is that this shooting at Jackson State College was based in race. You have to understand the role of race, both in causing it, and in the consequences that follow. This wasn't an attack on antiwar activists. It was attack on black students at a historically black college. As I said before, in the most racially repressive state in the country, these students had faced harassment from white citizens since the founding of the school, almost a century earlier. And the police local, law enforcement and state law enforcement had long been a part of that harassment. The highway patrol of Mississippi was still an all white force in 1970. And it was well known for its discriminatory treatment of African Americans. The Jackson City Police had a few black patrolman, but no black officers on its force. As the president's commission on campus unrest concluded, racial antagonisms were essential to understanding what the officers did. Then further racial animosity on the part of the white police officers was a substantial contributing factor. And further the report concluded was the confidence of white officers that if they fire weapons during a black campus disturbance, they will face neither stern department discipline nor criminal prosecution or conviction. So this all white force goes into a historically black college campus, who were enjoying the evening, and open fire on them for 28 seconds. The crowd they fired on were removed from the earlier unrest, which again had been a very minor incident. And even among those involved in the earlier trouble, there's disagreement about what was going on on campus. This wasn't a shooting that took place in the midst of a well-publicized campus protest. This was white officers invading the Black college campus and opening fire because it could not understand that these were simply students of color enjoying an evening. They saw a threat, they saw a riot where there simply was not such a thing happening. 
 
JJ (17:26): 
I wonder Nancy, if you can talk a little bit about why you think then that these shootings of black students didn't get the attention that the shootings that happened at Kent State did. 
 
Nancy Bristow (17:39): 
And I'm afraid the answer is the obvious one, the victims were African-American. These were black kids. As you suggested earlier, the nation was used to seeing violence against young African Americans. It had been almost normalized in a way that is sickening, I think to us, because I think it continues to be. So I think in addition, there's the problem of Kent State itself, because this happens 10 days after it is often sort of conflated with the Kent State shootings. In fact, when mainstream magazine describes it as, as Kent State two, which it wasn't, this was a racialized shooting that was not the same as Kent State, but once it's sort of mischaracterized as being the same as Kent State, then one can stand in for the whole. And you can actually watch the ways in which it is sort of quickly shuffled off to the side on anniversaries, where there will be major stories on the Kent State shootings. And then there'll be a sidebar that says things like others who died and they'll have the names of James Earl Green and Philip Gibbs. So I think it's conflation with the Kent State shootings has really cost us in our ability to remember this distinctive event. 
 
JJ (18:50): 
And can you tell our listeners a little bit about James Earl Green and Philip Gibbs? Cause we've mentioned them in passing, but those are the two young men who were killed and there were 12 other young people injured as well. So I'm wondering if you can just give us just a little bit of detail on who these men were. 
 
Nancy Bristow (19:06): 
I sure can. And I really, really appreciate that question because I think it's always important that we remember that we're not talking about statistics. We're talking about young people who were dearly beloved by those around them, their friends and their families, James Earl Green was 17 years old. He was just a few days away from graduating from high school. He had loved track. And as one of the sisters said, he also loved the girls. He dreamed of going to the Olympics. He was the middle of nine kids. So he had been working at a local grocery called the Wagga Bag, located on Lynch street. Also sort of a place where people could drive in and a car hop would come out and take the order and go in and get it and bring it back out. And that's what James had been doing since he was 11 at the Wagga Bag to help out with family finances. And he was on his way home from work actually when he was shot across the street from the dormitory. So in fact, the officers had to turn around. Someone turned away from the dormitory, in fact to shoot to the other side of the street, where he was shot and killed. And his family, I interviewed a couple of his sisters and they described his caring instinct, his loving instinct. How, no matter how down you felt, he always lifted you up. And they said repeatedly, he could make a joke out of anything. Phillip Gibbs was a bit older. He was a junior at Jackson State College and he was studying politics. He was also married to a woman Dale Gibbs. And he had a son Phillip Jr., Who he lovingly called man. His wife had returned to Ripley, Mississippi, where they were both from, in order to save expenses. And they didn't know at the time, but on the night that he was killed, she was pregnant with their second child. His friends remembered Gibbs as somebody who would help anybody and said that he was caring, sharing person. He was thinking about a career in the law when he died. There were 12 other young people injured. And I can just say that five of them were women who were hit inside the dormitory. Clemmie Johnson, DeWayne Davis, Stella Spinks, Gloria Mayhorn and Patricia Ann Sanders. Seven other people were outside the dorm, Andrea Reese, Red Wilson, Londsey Thompson, Vernon Steve Weakly, a non-student Willie Woodward, Fonzie Coleman, who was hit in the left thigh and suffered life threatening blood loss and shock. And then the worst of the injured was Leroy Canter. He was at the dorm cause he just dropped his girlfriend off, who would become his wife eventually. His femur was shattered and he spent 39 days in the hospital. When he was released he was in a rigid body cast that covered all of one leg and half of the other. And now remember, we're talking about the middle of summer in Mississippi. It was a very, very difficult ordeal for Mr. Canter. The victims of the shooting got no satisfaction in the justice system. There were no grand juries, both a federal and a county grand jury that were people by ardent racists and segregationists. They had no chance at getting proper indictments out of those two grand juries. They then filed a civil suit in 1972 against the state, the city of Jackson, the political leadership, the shooters, the all white jury, not surprisingly, found for the officers. They were able to win that case on appeal, but sovereign immunity protected the shooters. And then in 1974, the Supreme court refused to hear their case. So the victims of the shooting, both the families of James Earl Green and Philip Gibbs, as well as the 12 young people who were injured never received any monetary compensation, never saw those who had committed the crimes against them held responsible. And perhaps most remarkably to me, they've still never received an apology from either the city or the state for what they went through. And for me that 50 years later, that that could still be the case is really quite shocking. And I like to hope that this anniversary will change that. 
 
JJ (23:05): 
And one of the things that was really hard for me to read and learn about this shooting was how law enforcement didn't offer aid to those who have been shot at. And in fact, the victims were treated pretty callously. Isn't that correct? 
 
Nancy Bristow (23:20): 
No, it's actually, it's really disgusting I guess the right word. I won't water it down in the immediate aftermath. Law enforcement turned to picking up their shells, essentially destroying evidence that would have been useful to have, they do not offer aid to any of the students. They do, however, boss the students around. The onsite commander of the highway patrol, whose nickname was goon, whose real name was Lloyd actually ordered students to go check on the two who had been mortally wounded, the dead Gibbs and Green, but as he's ordering the students around he's using of course the most derogatory racial language, he uses both as he bosses the students around in the midst of this horrible thing that's just happened to them. And as it reports back to headquarters, there's just a complete disregard for what has just happened. Sort of a callousness. One of the news men who was on site, noted a kind of levity among the police officers in the aftermath, which is just so hard to even imagine. To be fair, it is important to note that though neither the highway patrol nor the Jackson City police would offer aid, the National Guard did, they were on the edge of campus. And in fact, they were the ones who were supposed to be taking over the campus if there were to be anyone there. In fact, the other two were to have left the campus to retreat, to the periphery. The National Guard did come in. They were shocked at what had taken place. And they did actually offer aid. 
 
Kelly (24:43): 
As you describe this indifference after the shooting, I can't help, but think of, for example, Michael Brown laying on the ground after he was shot. And so I'm just wondering, how do you view the Jackson State shootings in the context of some of the more recent police involved shootings that we've seen? Not only just the actual events themselves, but also how we talk about them as a country? 
 
Nancy Bristow (25:09): 
I really appreciate that question as well. Obviously in the last few days, you know, we're all reeling from yet another set of shootings. The parallels, for instance, with the shooting of Mr. Arbery are just horrifying. In both cases, you have African Americans who were simply living their lives, not threatening anyone who were then gunned down. In both cases, you have visions I think of who these people are. It's completely warped by white supremacy and the sort of stereotypes that have surrounded African-Americans so unfairly for decades. As a result, you have people bringing heavy fire power to encounters that become confrontations that are completely inappropriate to have in those kinds of contexts. And the result of it of course, is the death of young African American men. And perhaps almost as horrifying is the ways in which in the aftermath, those who've done the violence, try to somehow flip the narrative and suggest that they were the victims in all of this. And that for me is so deeply troubling that we really need to figure out how to finally have accountability. So I think that's the only way that these shootings will ever stop. And what I really appreciate about your question too, about how we talk about it. If I can just say one other thing, I think we have to be situating on conversations in historical context, in the wake of the Michael Brown shooting, right? There's that amazing Pew poll that shows that 80%, I think it is of African American suggests that race is getting the attention it deserves as the story is being reported, but almost half of white Americans suggest race is getting too much attention. You can only think that in the Michael Brown context, if you don't know anything about the past, if you don't know that we have this history of violence against people of color, that goes all the way back to slavery. So for me, I think as we're thinking about these things and these more recent cases, we have to continue to put them not in isolation, each one is a one off, but think about this long history of which they are actually a horrific and tragic continuation. 
 
Kelly (27:10): 
I'm wondering what do we lose as a country by conflating Kent State and Jackson State? 
 
Nancy Bristow (27:17): 
I think we lose the reality that state violence, violence by police officers, by national guard, by state highway patrolman, that violence by these representatives of the state against African Americans and against other people of color as well, continues to be a serious crisis. And it's not a crisis that is new. It's a crisis with a long, long historical trajectory, which for me makes it all the more criminal that it persists in the ways that it does. I think by conflating Jackson State with Kent State, you lose that historical context. It allows for the historical ignorance that it continues then for people to say, well, this just happened this time. This just happened, in this case, he shouldn't have been wearing a hoodie. He shouldn't have, he shouldn't have...You can't say those kinds of things if you can contextualize each of these killings in this long history of which Jackson State is one part. And again, I agree wholeheartedly that the story of what happened at Kent State is tremendously important. The two are linked chronologically, they're linked because they happened on college campuses. They're linked because the students on the two campuses felt a sense of solidarity with one another for having been victims of state violence. But those students understood that the two incidents were not the same thing, but what happened at Kent and what happened at Jackson were distinct and that the racial component of the killings at Jackson State needed to be remembered needed to be understood. 
 
JJ (28:46): 
Well, and on that note, I'm wondering because like the way you phrase things is just so wonderful, it's the truth and just sort of this grounding in the present, in history, I'm wondering if you have any advice for how people in GVP, in gun violence prevention and our listeners, how can we best frame these conversations about gun violence, particularly when I think what always makes people very uncomfortable when there's been state violence involved, when there's been law enforcement involved, how do you suggest people go about starting to have these conversations, which are clearly very, very important. 
 
Nancy Bristow (29:26): 
And I guess that's where I think having some historical context can be so useful because it helps us to see that this is something that is much broader than a single case, that we have some institutionalized problems that we need to deal with and that until we have accountability, the crisis will continue. And so for me, bringing history into the story helps us see the ways in which this is not arbitrary in the same way that it might seem. If you look at each case one by one, I think the most important thing to do is exactly what you tried to do with this podcast, which is to actually talk, to talk to people who have data, who've done research, who know the facts and then see to actually take seriously that this is a problem that needs solving. I think if we start with a shared sense that the loss of lives is something we want to try to prevent, we start with the victims. I think that often can help people realize that this is beyond politics. This is about our shared humanity. 
 
JJ (30:28): 
What is one thing that you wish everyone knew about the Jackson State shootings? You know, why, what did we learn or fail to learn that day? That absolutely has to be applied for our country going forward. 
 
Nancy Bristow (30:42): 
I think we all have to reckon with the reality that this shooting resulted from the white supremacy of the officers who opened fire. The most important thing to remember is that these were young African Americans who were shot because they were black by white officers who could not understand their full humanity and confronted them with so many stereotypes in their minds, that it was somehow easy for them to open fire for nearly half a minute on innocent unarmed young people. And what I worry is that I don't feel that we're as far removed from that as we could be, or as we certainly should be in 2020. It's so disheartening to realize 50 years have passed since this shooting and that we could still be in the place. 
 
Kelly (31:29): 
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it's, I don't know. That's something for me growing up that you learn historically, that it's just, this is tradition, you know, killing people, dehumanizing Black people is sort of taken for granted in a way. And so to your point about having to reckon with the fact that, you know, white supremacy was the cause of this shooting, I think is really important today because like the rationale may be different, but the tenor is the same. This idea of this person's not human like me, you know, they're scary, they're dangerous. There are brutes, all this stuff, it plays into these interactions. That's the water we swim in, whether you're Black, White, Latino, whatever, like that's the culture, that's what it is. That's what we're kind of reared in and so it's still happening. And like you said, I think reckoning with that in the past will hopefully help us reckon with that in the present, but we have to actually reckon with it and not just write it off. 
 
Nancy Bristow (32:35): 
I agree so completely. And you get this line sometimes when you're a historian about why can't you just let this go? Why do we need to dwell on the past? And I think the reality is that until we reckon with the past, until we face it head on, we will continue to be mired in it and we will continue to suffer from its consequences. Toni Morrison in her beautiful yet horrific novel Beloved, talks about the story of Beloved being--it was not a story to pass on I think she says, and yet we know that as a result, Beloved comes and is in fact haunting the living characters of the novel. And I think the same is true for all of us today. That until we can sort of confront the ghost of this past that we live in the midst of, we will continue to be haunted, just as she suggested in her in a way as beautiful and as deep and meaningful as only Toni Morrison can do. 
 
JJ (33:31): 
Well on that fantastic note because I don't think any of us can top Tony Morrison. 
 
New Speaker (33:39): 
[general agreement] 
 
JJ (33:41): 
I will say thank you so much for coming on Nancy and thank you for your, your wonderful book. And for focusing on this, I hope that maybe this is finally the year that Jackson State gets acknowledged for what it was and has given. 
 
Nancy Bristow (33:57): 
Well, thanks so much for having me on and for allowing me to tell this story, which of course belongs to others but thank you for helping to get that story out. 
 
JJ (34:09): 
In today's Unbelievable, But I'm sharing a story that provides a wonderful lesson for when restaurants start to open up again. And, you know, you want to take that special someone out for a nice night on the town. It was shortly before the outbreak of COVID when a 19 year old from New York state took his girlfriend out for dinner, the couple headed to a steak house and, you know, all was well until it was time to pay for the check. As the man reached into his pocket for his wallet, he somehow unintentionally fired a gun that he had in his pocket, which hit his date in the leg. Now the couple left and drove away like nothing ever happened for a half mile, at least when they finally pulled over and called for help. And while his date was okay, it came out that the gun was actually stolen and the night ended with the man's arrest. I'm sure that will be a night that both will remember, but for none of the reasons you'd want. So lesson learned, if you're going to have a date, maybe leave the gun at home, especially if it's stolen. And especially if you have no idea how to carry it safely. 
 
JJ (35:13): 
So for this week's news wrap up, we begin with a call to action on March 13th, Breonna Taylor, a 26 year old black woman in Louisville, Kentucky was shot and killed by police in her own home. Three police officers entered her apartment around 1:00 AM to serve a search warrant in a narcotics case. While facts in this case continued to emerge, the subject of the warrant did not live in Taylor's building and had already been detained by law enforcemen when the officers entered her apartment. The officers entered the apartment without knocking and without identifying themselves as law enforcement. Taylor and her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker were asleep and awoke. When the officers entered under the belief that their apartment was being broken into Walker used his licensed firearm to fire at the intruders. The officers returned fire shooting 20 rounds into the apartment and killing Breonna Taylor. In the two months since the event, Kenneth Walker has been charged with first degree assault and attempted murder of a police officer. The Lewisville police department has initiated a public integrity investigation into the events, but the officers involved in the shooting have not been charged. Here at Brady, we echo Taylor's family and community's demands for justice and a call for a full, transparent and independent investigation into her death. Additionally, last week report broke that gun dealers in five states have defied orders to close and instead remain open for business. Reporters from the Trace and USA today contacted gun stores in states that have issued emergency shutdown orders, legally requiring them to close in Michigan, Washington, New Mexico, New York and Massachusetts. Reporters for the Trace and USA today found that in Michigan, 15 out of 20 stores contacted were open in some capacity. Of the ten stores contacted in Washington state, all were open. In New Mexico, nine out of ten stores contacted were open. In New York, four of the ten stores contacted were open. And in Massachusetts, only one of the 20 stores contacted was open. Although three stores declined to answer these actions come as states across the country, have acted to close businesses and public spaces to stop the spread of coronavirus. 
 
(37:15): 
How do airplanes fly? What's in this box? What does this thing do? Kids are curious about everything, including guns, learn how to store your gun securely and make your home safer at EndFamilyFire.org brought to you by End Family Fire Brady and the ad council. 
 
JJ (37:33): 
Thanks for listening as always Brady's lifesaving work in Congress, the courts and communities across the country is made possible thanks to you. For more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like, and subscribe to the podcast. Get in touch with at us bradyunited.org or on social @bradybuzz. Be brave and remember take action, not sides.