Red, Blue, and Brady

70: 2020, Guns, and the Insurrectionist Idea

June 02, 2020 Brady, Josh Horwitz
Red, Blue, and Brady
70: 2020, Guns, and the Insurrectionist Idea
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Show Notes Transcript

The insurrectionist idea — that armed citizens have the ultimate right to take matters into their own hands and take up arms against whatever they define as an oppressive government — was once a fringe one. In 2020, however, the idea has been promoted and popularized by the gun lobby and its allies in the far-right movement. Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, joins JJ and Christian Heyne, Brady’s VP of Policy, to talk about how insurrectionism threatens democracy, how Trump's rhetoric is directing a vigilante army through his Twitter feed and press conferences, why racism is present in all of this, and why voting is so important. 

Mentioned in this podcast:
Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionist Idea (University of Michigan Press)
President Trump's Private Insurrection Army (NY Daily News)
The Insurrectionism Timeline (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence) 

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For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.

Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255. 
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support 
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

Support the show

For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.

Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.
In a crisis? Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor 24/7.

Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady

JJ Janflone:

Hey, everybody. This is the legal disclaimer where I tell you the views, thoughts, and opinions shared on this podcast belong solely to our guest hosts, and not necessarily Brady or Brady's affiliates. Please note, this podcast contains discussions of violence, that some people may find disturbing. It's okay, we find it disturbing too. Welcome back, everyone to Red, Blue and Brady. It really, really appreciate you being with us. Now, today we're talking about something that I think everyone in the US has been seeing a lot of and that has to be discussed. We're talking today about the difference between protests, insurrectionism, and gun violence. To do so, we're talking to the man who literally wrote the book on gun violence and insurrectionism, Josh Horwitz, of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. Then, in today's "Unbelievable, but" segment, we've got a story that shows why pulling out your weapon in public is inappropriate. Finally, in our news, wrap up, we're talking about the day-to-day realities of gun violence. So we don't really have a lot of time to talk about a very complicated topic. So I think we're gonna skip the pleasantries and just go right into it. So starting off with my co host today, Christian Heyne, can you introduce yourself?

Christian Heyne:

I am Christian Heyne, I'm the Vice President of Policy here at Brady. And, JJ, I'm so excited to be to be on with you. But in particular excited to be on with my former boss, Josh Horwitz, to be able to talk about this important issue. Thanks so much for having me.

JJ Janflone:

I mean, I always love to have you back. But I am so excited to give you that coveted chance to co-host again.

Christian Heyne:

I've been looking for it. I've been looking for it.

JJ Janflone:

And Josh, of course, you know, we're so lucky to have you. Can you introduce yourself?

Josh Horwitz:

Yeah. Hi, this is Josh Horwitz. I'm the executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and our sister organization, the educational fund to stop gun violence. I've been working on this issue for over 30 years, and real pleasure to be on with you guys.

JJ Janflone:

Well, thank you so much, Josh. And I think that, you know, when we were talking before, even the recording started, that this is this super important time for us to be having this conversation. This is, this has been a rough week, I think for the United States. It's been a it's been a rough week for those of us who work in gun violence. And so I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about, you know, what it is that you do with the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

Christian Heyne:

Yeah, and, and, Josh, if I can, if I can jump into I just, you know, you hit it earlier, but you know, we here at Brady are just so excited to have this conversation. You know, the the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence and Brady have such a long history together. And really, we're so lucky to be joined by you because of, not only your contributions and leadership at the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence and, but really your leadership and the role that you've played in the gun violence prevention movement over the course of really decades. And if you don't mind, as a part of that just, you know, talking about just the role that you've played, and the, sort of, things that you've seen in the gun violence prevention movement, I think will really set the table for, for a lot of the topics we want to cover today, too.

Josh Horwitz:

Sure. Thanks, Christian. And I and I want to echo. Thank you, thank you both for your very kind words. I want to echo the strong partnership between the Coalition and the Brady Campaign, that we've had over many years, and so excited to have, you know, you there so that we can really work even closer together, which is really exciting. The Coalition, you know, we work, our vision is to make gun violence rare and abnormal. And we, we work public health and equity lens. We want to make sure that we're bringing evidence-based solutions to the issue. We want to make sure that we understand the research, and then we want to be, you know, fierce advocates to turn that research and all those new findings into policy. And I've been able, I've been really lucky to be able to do that, a number of times, with some success over my career. And as you may know, I'm an adjunct professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, where I teach health advocacy, and I'm passionate about taking public health data and turning it into actual policy and success, in viewing policy and programs with public health, with a public health lens, you know, and really, you know, thinking now, how that squares also with an equity lens is, of course, deeply important. Those things we need to be thinking about at all times. And you know, and now after many years, you know, thinking of what we do, Christian and JJ, really, through the terms of public health and health equity lens, and I think that's an important piece as we sort of survey the world today, and we see the inequities and the violence that that leads to, we need to work on gun policy, which I do, and I'm really proud of the work that we've done there. And now increasingly we see the needs to be focusing on those social determinants of health, and making sure that communities across the country have access to education, and jobs, and the things that in health care, and the things that make our society more equitable. Those things are deeply related to stopping gun violence, as well as, sort of, the policy issues that I typically work on which, you know, have to do with access to firearms, and who has firearms, and things like that. And, you know, I've written extensively about what you brought up at the beginning, which was insurrectionsm. And for those who don't know what'insurrectionism' is, it's the mistaken belief that there's a constitutional right for individuals to take up arms, against, against the government, when they feel that the government is being tyrannical; that's an individual right. And that's one of the reasons you see in the gun lobby entice people or sell people. Think about all the incentives to load up on assault weapons and things like that. That's really, it's a marketing plan. But it's really it's a plan that also has really dangerous repercussions that we're seeing now.

Christian Heyne:

And Josh, I think in, you know, at the risk of saying that you're being a little modest about, you know, when you say that you've written about the insurrectionist idea, I mean you, you've literally, you literally wrote the book on, on the insurrectionist idea. And I just want to give a shoutout to that book, you know, "Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionst Idea." That, that book, you know, you wrote long before we got to where we are now, you know. I think when we had reached out, you know, it was in the wake, you know, to have this conversation, it was in the wake of just the displays of these extremists that had, first, really made a high profile showing in Virginia, in Richmond, Virginia, in the wake of a fair election. But also, you know, what we've now seen with protesters and extremists trying to bring arms and to intimidate, you know, governments like in Michigan, and other places around the country, governments who have issued stay-at-home orders for the good of public safety, in the interest of public health. And I just wonder if you can, if we can expand on that, you know, this, this idea that, at the time you're writing your book, it was almost like a, hey, if we don't get a hold of this, and sort of tamper down what the gun lobby is pushing, and what, really politicians were popularizing, the ripple effect of this could be really dangerous. And I think what's horrific is we're seeing those predictions come true today. And I just wonder if you can, if you can sort of talk about what it's like, you know, from when, when you were writing that book to, sort of, what you're seeing today?

Josh Horwitz:

Well, so Christian, thanks. Thanks for all that, I guess I was prescient in identifying it, but, but I feel like, you know, somewhat a failure in the fact that I didn't get people to focus on it enough. So in you know, so having, you know, been in this job when Waco happened, you know, when Oklahoma City happened, and seeing the connection with the ideology that these were not purely just acts of, there's more, there's a message in the violence that the government was overreaching, and that people have the right to kill babies really right, and blow up daycare centers and blow up federal buildings and things like that. And so thinking about that, sort of, really thinking and learning trying to understand where this came from, and it was really, at that time, you know, parts of sort of the far corners of the internet, which was the idea that the Second Amendment was not just about, you know, self defense or protecting the militia, but was really about this individualized ability to decide when, when, when to fight tyranny, when to fight, you know. And remember, one person's right, one person's tyranny is another person's universal health care. So that's why you know, we, you know, revolution can never be individualized, because we have different views of these things. So I started seeing this in the sort of, you know, call to arms, if you will call to arms-up and the assault weapons ban was expiring, and people were arming up. And I was like, what's going on out there? It was really at that point, in the far corners of the internet. But you know, about the time the book was published, right before Barack Obama became president, you started to see people, openly the gun lobby, talk about Second Amendment remedies. And Mike Huckabee talking about, you know, the Second Amendment's not about duck hunting, well, what is it for? It's for resisting the government "tyranny," which often took the form of just regular political discourse. And it became clear to me that the people pushing this idea of Second Amendment remedies, were talking about using firearms to get their way in the normal political system, in a way where laws got passed justly and democratically that they didn't like, right. And so that's, when you saw the protests in Richmond this year that was, they were protesting the impending passage of a group of gun laws that were passed, that were you know, voted on by elected representatives with an election that just occurred where this was a big issue. And and you know, this idea of Second Amendment remedies has been pushed first by the far, you know, sort of, you know, in really small, small places on the internet, but then got raised in right-wing politicians, the gun lobby and now is like, it's almost mainstream. And we are seeing the results of our failure to confront this idea and the anti-Democratic nature of this idea. We're seeing that now. And we're seeing that in protests, you know, government buildings being taken over, stay-at-home orders being resisted. And when you bring a gun to a rally, it shows your propensity to commit violence. And that's what, it's a statement about, 'Hey, I'm here, and I'm armed and if you don't do what I want you to do, I'll use my arm.' People may say, 'Well, oh, that's, you know, that would never happen.' Now legislatures are being canceled, and people, legislators having to leave their building and being threatened by armed protesters. So it's happening, it's happening today. And it's a very, very anti-Democratic situation.

Christian Heyne:

And and to that point, to Josh which is, you know, you articulate it so well, it's almost worse, right? The the point where we are now, where, where, you know, when these things happen, and transpire, and these actions and militia groups, you know, came in from all over the country to sort of talk about the Second Amendment to, you know, really try to brace for impact for what the Virginia legislature that was elected to office, to have and create that sensible change to the gun laws there, the movement that you were so integral to creating out there, you know, that was about the Second Amendment. And what we're seeing right now, is they're not even really talking about their guns, they're talking directly about these actions of a government that they don't agree with, and they're carrying these weapons and coming in, you know, with their assault-style, military-style weapons with a very clear message that is unspoken. And for whatever reason, that just is a lot more eerie, because it's the that threat, that intimidation, that's exactly what it's it's they're trying to accomplish, it is to have that chilling effect on traditional democratic process. I do wonder real quick too, Josh, just, we hear a lot from these folks that the Second Amendment was written to sort of, and I know, you're, you've been, you know, sort of speaking against it. But we've been talking about the Second Amendment, you know, in terms that I think make sense to me. But I do hear from the other side that, you know, we have these weapons to keep our government in check. And I don't think that is historically accurate. But do we have any sort of evidence of that?

Josh Horwitz:

Yeah. So the the history of the Second Amendment is that there was obviously you know, there was a fear of standing armies. But there was also a fear that the federal government would tell the state militias what to do, and potentially limit who would be in the state militias, send them to, like the Canadian border, for instance. They were worried about that. And it certainly wasn't an individual, there's no discussion of an individual right. But it was really about a power sharing situation, who got to control the militia, who got to decide who was in the militia. And if you read the work of Saul, Cornell, which I think is quite compelling, he talks about the Second Amendment is a political right for the states, to decide who gets to be in a militia, where the militias get to go and be deployed, and the ability to make sure that their citizens got to serve in their state, in the militia. And so that's the history of it. It's this, the state militias and the Second Amendment, were not designed to hold the federal government in-check. In fact, in the Constitution, in the militia clause in the Constitution says the militias are there to put down insurrections, not ferment them. And so it's hard to imagine that the framers, at the same time that they were creating the document, because of the disorder going on in the country, that would allow more disorder, right, they would allow, you know, state militias to go and threaten, you know, the Federal Capitol. That's not the way this was set up. It was about who got to control the state militia, which was very important at the time, because we didn't have police force at the time, militia acted as both law enforcement, and for some states, obviously, to make sure that they were there, in addition, to keep the slave population in check. And so it's very important, in thinking about the racist origins of that, but it's very important that the state's got to control their own militias at that time. And so those are the those are the, sort of, origins of that, and the idea that we have some individualized right because of that, individualized right to, you know, to use arms to make policy, is completely ridiculous.

JJ Janflone:

And I want to be really clear here. That protesting is not the same thing as insurrectionism. And I think one of the reasons that that's getting muddied is that we're seeing almost, what I would imagine a government response to insurrectionism, we're seeing that in response to protests, and vice versa?

Josh Horwitz:

Well, I think you have to think about, there's no right to take up arms, there's no right to take up arm, arms against the government, we don't like a political decision. I think that's very important to understand. And what we do see, though, is that when, you know, armed, white men show up at the Michigan Capitol, or in Virginia, they're very fine fellows, according to the President. And when people exercise, which is very different, the right for civil disobedience, the right to protest, the right to free speech, all of a sudden, then those people should be shot, right, if they're African American, that's what the President said today. And so that's a very, that's a really important thing to think about the types of privilege we have, it's also important to think about, like, who gets to exercise different rights. Insurrectionism isn't a right, protest is, and, and non-violent protest is certainly a part of that, and understanding A. where the difference is. But also in seeing the response differential is just jarring. And that, to me, really shows you that this, we still and we, at the time of the framing of the Constitution, this country was a racist society -- and it still is. And the armed white men at the Michigan legislature are doing something very different than what you're seeing in a community, with hundred years, affected by hundreds of years of racism, expressing frustration. Those are different types of things, and I think it's very important, especially when, you know, the vast majority of people in Minneapolis are protesting in a very non-violent way. And that's very important and what we're seeing in the Michigan legislature is everybody comes with a gun to make a point, those are different things. And I think it's important to make that distinction.

JJ Janflone:

Yeah, these are not the same thing at all. And, and more than that, I think we have to be honest, that there is very clearly a racial component here.

Josh Horwitz:

Right. In Minneapolis, people are protesting centuries of inequality and health inequality. And, and, most of them, you know, are doing it in a very doing in a very non-violent was. Considering what happened there, right, where, you know, it was clear that Black life was devalued. And it's, it's such a horrible thing that happened there. And you're thinking about people protesting, you know, like I said, centuries of inequality, right? Compare that to the people in Michigan, who showed up at the legislature with guns, were protesting one month of a public health, you know, shutdown, to save people's lives, right. And, and, and the gun it there says, we're here and we might use violence, right. And, and these, you know, and we're all evolving, and are thinking about this, and this is all happening in real time and thinking hard about this. But those, there are, there's a real distinguishing factors here. And the privilege of getting people who think they can show up at a legislature with firearms, and it's okay, and nobody gets arrested, and the police sort of back off, and, you know,'whatever,' and 'fine take over the legislature.' I think that's, that is an important distinction here and it's something that, this has been something that's been going on for a long time, that we somehow look at this differently, depending on who, who's involved. And I think, you know, we have to be, we have to really think about the distinctions between, so when I'm talking about insurrectionism, I'm talking about an individual right to get involved in the political process through arms. I am not talking about the collective cry of people who've been oppressed and saying, "We need justice." Those are different things.

Christian Heyne:

Yeah and I think also, you know, for what it's worth this, this idea of just the, the dynamic or juxtaposition with, you know, how these protests versus insurrectionism are perceived or carried out is, you know, to a certain degree, I think something else that, you know, tare flames that the gun lobby has been fanning for some time, right? You know, in addition to, sort of, what we're seeing in Minneapolis right now, you know, we've also witnessed other horrific shootings that have, and other protests that are happening simultaneously right now. You know, I'm thinking about in Louisville, the protests that took place last night still, you know, calling for justice for the death of Breonna Taylor. And you know, in that scenario, similar to, and a lot of the details need to unfold, but what we do know from reports is, you know, you it's a double edged sword here, right. Not only do you have this woman who was shot and killed in her own home while police were exercising a warrant for someone that they already had in custody and they didn't know, and they were in the wrong building. But you know, her, her partner was firing back at intruders, in the wake of a lot of messaging that we got from the gun lobby years and decades even, but especially in the time of COVID of, you know, 'this is why you have your gun' is to, you know, be able to fiercely protect your family. And yet even in this scenario, the gun lobby is silent, right. And we saw the same thing Philando Castile. And I, you know, I think it's interesting that, not only, are there, you know, the sort of, the centuries of systemic racism that I think have led to these protests and the importance of them, that we're hearing. There's also an element here where, the idea that our laws are, you know, written and our systems are created for white Americans. I mean, the same thing is holding true for the messaging of the gun lobby, right? Like, are they advocating for gun rights across the board or are they advocating for the gun rights of a certain demographic, right? And I think these things and conversations need to be out and transparent because this dangerous rhetoric has consequences that we're seeing every day. And it's just, it's awful to see.

Josh Horwitz:

Well, I would, I would point you directly to'Stand Your Ground' on that Stand Your Ground legislation that we see in 25 states. And that Ahmaud Arbery, you know, was subject to individuals who thought they were protected by the Stand Your Ground laws, and they still may be, we don't know that, we have, we don't know how that trial is going to turn out yet.

JJ Janflone:

And really quickly, Josh, can I have you explain what Stand Your Ground laws actually are for our listeners?

Josh Horwitz:

So Stand Your Ground is, is really a recent construction in the law starting in the late 1990s, in Florida. Where it changed the understanding of, you know, so in general, you know, you have, you know if your life is in danger, and you have no ability to escape or retreat, the law has always been you can meet proportional force, right, you can meet force with force and you can protect yourself. Many states have what's called the Castle Doctrine, which allows you to be privileged more in your own home, and so that you don't have a duty to retreat in your own home. But what happened with Stand Your Ground is they took that, that, "do not retreat" sort of idea into into public spaces. And that coincided with the push for more and more concealed weapons. And by the way, these are all marketing ploys of the gun lobby, concealed weapons, and then the ability to use them in public to stand your ground, right. And there's no accident that both of those things, the genesis of them was in Florida. And so it took the ability, now you have a gun in public. And now, now you don't have to, look for hundreds of years, the ability to say, 'Hey, I can avoid violence.' Even if you're seeing a felony being convicted, committed, 'I can avoid violence, I should do it,' right. Let me just do it, call law enforcement, whenever I need to do. Nope, you can now, with Stand Your Ground, stay in place and shoot -- even if your life isn't in danger. And we've seen this right, we've seen this play out too many times. And so that's a, you know, that is a real change in our, in our tradition, literally from biblical times, it was recognized that, you know, even in a place where there was threatening behavior, if have the ability to just to walk it back, you should. And that should be a goal for all of us. But Stand Your Ground changes that presumption, and allows you to, right if, if, even without Stand Your Ground, if you're in a situation where you can't, you can't escape and your life is being threatened, that you can protect yourself. But with Stand Your Ground, it's way more than your life being in danger, danger, a whole set of other type of felonies, and sometimes even not felonies. And so it gives, it privileges the gun owner to say, "Yup, I don't really feel like retreating. I'm seeing something in front of me, I'm going to use force." And you can see that, you know, when people are upset about, you know, a parking space, right or loud music or, or somebody walking through your, through an alley with a hoodie on, right in Trayvon Martin. And so these are things that, you know, where, where, you know, years ago, you'd have been required to walk away, call law enforcement, or whatever. Now you're like, "No, I see something going on. I'm going to take care of it myself." And I think that's what you see in the Ahmaud Arbery situation, where, I mean, the idea that these guys within the with the firearms were like following Arbery. I mean, that comes direct from Stand Your Ground where they, they're seeing, we're seeing something happen, it's not life threatening, but we have the ability now to go confront this person with the gun. That is really the, sort of, the epitome of the privilege that, that Stand Your Ground provides, and how dangerous that can be. You just juxtapose those, juxtaposition on what we're seeing. You know, law enforcement has all sorts of training on how to use force, and they still get it wrong. And a lot they get it wrong, not everybody, but you can see how, even with all the training, even with implicit bias training, they get it wrong. Now we're giving that ability to our citizens with zero training? That makes no sense. And so that's kind of the, you know, it started, it always has been employed to sell more guns, and sStand Your Ground developed, in tandem, with with more easy access to concealed weapons. And then you had the weapon, so now you can use the weapon, right, that's what happened. It's all a ploy to sell guns, it's all a ploy to sell guns. That is a terrible turn in our law. It's a turn on hundreds of years of our tradition. But most importantly, it's a term that says, that will never be applied equitably, it will never be applied equitably. And white people will always have more access to Stand Your Ground. And it is something that allows the devaluation of life. And when you see the foot and the knee, you know, on George Floyd, you're seeing the devaluation of life. And Stand Your Ground is one of those signals that says"that's okay," and that's why I believe that we should repeal Stand Your Ground everywhere, because it sends the signal that individuals can take live when they don't have to, and that's a devaluation of people's lives, in a way never applied equitably.

Christian Heyne:

At that point is is really well taken, the devaluation of Black life in this country. Stand Your Ground is a really clear example of that. I mean, it's horrific.

Josh Horwitz:

It's horrific it sends a terrible signal. And also, I mean, quantifiably causes more death. It's not a life saving law. There's no justification for it. And because it causes more death because it's hopelessly inequitable, we're calling for it to be repealed everywhere. And you know, and when you see the inequities in that law, and you see the inequities in health outcomes, and you see the inequities of where COVID strikes, and you see the inequities and where, where we see you know, homicide strikes. Yeah, people are angry, justifiably angry. And our biggest thing that we need to do is act on that, you know, it's it's not good enough to say,"Oh, I'm appalled," you've got to do something about it. You've got to repeal laws that are racist, you've got to fight for better access to health care and education. Those are things that matter. And it's not, it's well beyond the talking time, right now it's time for the acting, you know. But we, we've got to be part of the solution now, actively part of the solution. And just I'll say that, that means also confronting insurrectionism when we see it. Because we cannot say it's okay, right, for white gun owners, mostly men to go take over a state legislature, or to defy a stay-at home-order, when it's for the benefit of all. We can't do that either. That's part of this, I just think we have a lot of work to do and we really, as a country allowed, of course, always allowed these inequities to get out of control, we need to fix them. But we also need to confront insurrectionism, we need to evolve our democracy, to bring more and more equality, and more and more people into the equation. And this arm disorder that we're seeing, especially I feel, coming in places like Michigan, and Virginia is a, is something that could really rip our country apart. And I think something that we need to guard carefully against, at the same time that we're working hard to build a more equitable and just society.

Christian Heyne:

And it just shows, you know, we need, now more than ever, our political leaders to recognize the weight of those words and those ideas and to have the courage to see more than than just their political future. But really, you know, what is the impact cuz there's no, these communities are never going to be the same. These lives will never get back. And it's not just the one person, it's every friend and every family member whose whose lives, they'll, they'll be living with that pain forever. And it all starts with that seed, right? It starts with that that rhetoric and and, and we've allowed it to blossom into, sort of, the these, these politicians have allowed it to blossom into the hate-filled action that we're seeing now. You first saw a lot of this happening long ago, even if you were hopeful that it wouldn't because we could raise the warning flags. What do we need, what warning flags do we need to raise now? What what are you most nervous about, or think that we need to head off here? Where does it, where does it go?

Josh Horwitz:

So that's a great question. What, what I saw on the, sort of, far corners of the internet 12 years ago, 14 years ago, whatever it was, is now well, well organized, right, in 4chan and the whole movement. Right. And that, that movement, you know, is is really going to be, you know, is well-organized and growing and is, as you know, I've no doubt as being, you know, sort of, it's there to ferment unrest. It's there to ferment hatred, it's there to, you know, to stop understanding and healing. And the people who are part of that are openly, you know, are openly racist or openly using firearms because they want disorder, the United States, they want a war in the United States. They want to just destroy, you know, what's left of our democracy. And those are, those are important. Those are so much better organized because of, really, because of Facebook, and other things they haven't done in the past. And there's some really interesting reporting, it's not on the far corners of the internet, this, you know, this insurrectionism on steroids now is there for everybody to see. And you see Trump, I did a piece about this recently, is their almost official commander now. And if people don't see that, that this is, we're so close to losing our democracy, that there are people who are willing to do this insurrectionist bidding, were just arming up and organizing and taking Trump as their commander. If we don't, if we do not take this election, so seriously, whatever your political view, conservative/liberal, it's not about this. It's about saving our country from impending fascism.

JJ Janflone:

Well, then, for listeners who are really worried about this, listeners who heard like the phrase you used of like a "private insurrection army" and are very concerned. What, what do you recommend that they do to educate themselves? How do you recommend that they get active in this time?

Josh Horwitz:

So I think, what we're seeing right now is going to be is, in many ways, in many communities, is going to be a disincentive to vote. There's going to be, you know, the idea that "none of this matters," right. We've got, we've got Yeah, well, well said, Josh. I mean, I think, and rightfully, unrest, we've got an insurrection. You know, no one's listening. none of this matters. I would argue that it's never mattered more. It's never mattered more to get rid of the leader of the insurrectionist army. It's just never mattered more. And, you know, I wrote a piece about this in the New York Daily News recently. But you know, when, you know, when Trum is saying, "Liberate," he's ot talking to the general publ c, he's talking to his army. Tha's not the US Army, it's a priv te army, and we've got to vote while we still can. And this is, I warned about this, you know, when I wrote my book, it i hair-on-fire time. Vote, like you've never voted before, and ven for imperfect candidates, b t just, we've got to, we have ab olutely got to wrestle our count y back from the current presid nt. we, we, we should be scared and nervous. And it should motivate all of us to get out there, you know, as if ours and other lives depend on it.

JJ Janflone:

Yeah -- because they do. And I really want to take the time right now before we have to wrap up here to say thank you so much, Christian, for for coming on. And to you too Josh.

Christian Heyne:

Yeah, Josh, really, really appreciate the conversation. Just all you've, all you've done and continue to do for the movement and for the country. I hope that your rallying cry is heard by by many, so that we don't get to a point where we have you on to talk about how more of these predictions were correct.

Josh Horwitz:

I yeah, I hope, I hope this one, I hope my fears don't become reality on this one. And thank you for giving me this great opportunity to talk about these things. I really appreciate it.

JJ Janflone:

Thank you so much. And hopefully we don't have to talk soon.

Josh Horwitz:

That's correct. Yeah.

JJ Janflone:

So you know what sweet? Buying gifts for your family. You know what's not sweet? Pulling a gun on innocent bystanders. Orlando Police are still looking for a man who threatened another shopper at a deli counter, inside a local grocery store chain. He appeared to go from shopping for flowers, balloons, and steaks to pulling out a gun. They man pulled out the weapon after getting into an argument with another patron. You know, over what? Who knows. Maybe who got the last of the potato salad. Maybe the person who got the last box wine, I don't know. But thankfully no one was shot or injured. But understandably, several employees and consumers ran out of the store in fear. We begin a week of horrifically sad news with a message from Philadelphia. Philly Mayor Jim Kenney voiced his frustration about gun violence on Wednesday, following the latest tragedy involving the death of a nine-year-old boy who had been shot. This is the second child to be killed by gun violence in the city, within the last five weeks. Four year old Kastari"Star" Nunez was shot at a Northeast Philadelphia home last month. "I think there are just too many damn guns in our society in the hands of people who don't use them properly and don't secure them properly" Kenney said. Meanwhile, a boy who survived a mass shooting at a Walmart in El Paso Texas celebrated his first birthday over the weekend with the help of his community. Hundreds of El Paso residents and members of the local motorcycle club helped Paul Anchondo take part in a drive-by celebration Saturday, amid the coronavirus pandemic. Anchondo's parents Jordan and Andre were killed while shielding their child during the Walmart mass shooting on August 3. They were among 23 people who died. In Arizona the family of a slain 16-year-old boy want answers. Phoenix Police are investigating a triple shooting from Tuesday night, that happened outside of a local gas station. Sean Chinn Jr. was riding a skateboard, on the way to the store, when he ran into some friends. Well the group talked on the sidewalk, one of the boys threw a rock near a passing car. The driver then allegedly turned the car around while a passenger in the vehicle began firing a gun. Chinn was shot and killed in the incident while two of his friends sustained gunshot wounds, but survived. His mother says that the family moved from Chicago to Phoenix to escape gun violence. And after less than a year in the valley, her son was killed. Additionally, people across the country are expressing outrage at the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent state-sponsored violence against those seeking accountability in his name. While, the officer who was filmed killing George Floyd has now been arrested and charged with murder and manslaughter. We at Brady reiterate the need to confront the systematic racism that drives police violence and gun violence as a whole. We support activists from the Minneapolis-St. Paul community, as they demand tangible police and government reform, just as we support activists across the US working for that too. Remember Black and Brown Americans face gun violence and police violence at a disproportionately high rate. While Black Americans are only 13% of the US population, they are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white Americans, and constitute 31% of all police involved fatalities. This reality, and the fact that Black Americans face disproportionate rates of gun violence, result from the same racist policies, and the same racist structures that drive inequality and disparity for minority communities across numerous outcomes. And hey, guess what's happening now? It's an advertisement. Obviously, we all value security. In over it's 145 year history, ADT has become well known as a home security provider. But did you know, they also offer other products, from smart home integration, to mobile security options for small and large businesses. I know that I use ADT to keep me and my family safe, and I want to share this peace of mind with you. Podcast listeners now can get a free -- that's right, free-- security review and quote by clicking on the link in our episode description. Check out ADT today. Thanks for listening. As always, Brady's life saving work and Congress, the courts and communities across the country, is made possible thanks to you. For more information on Brady or how to get involved in the fight against gun violence, please like and subscribe to the podcastl et in touch with us at BradyUnited.org or on social@Bradybuzz. Be brave and remember -- take action, not sides.