{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2.07,"endTime":5.37,"body":"My guest founded a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2.07,"endTime":5.37,"body":"Feminist Press in the 1970s and"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":5.37,"endTime":9.06,"body":"began writing lesbian mysteries"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":5.37,"endTime":9.06,"body":"in the 1980s which makes it no"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":9.06,"endTime":12.06,"body":"surprise the Golden Crown"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":9.06,"endTime":12.06,"body":"Literary Society honored her"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":12.06,"endTime":15.18,"body":"with a Trailblazer Award. 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This is Queer"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":30.54,"endTime":34.05,"body":"Writers of Crime, where you'll"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":30.54,"endTime":34.05,"body":"get book recommendations and"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":34.05,"endTime":39.03,"body":"hear interviews with LGBTQ"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":34.05,"endTime":39.03,"body":"authors of mystery, suspense and"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":39.03,"endTime":42.93,"body":"thriller novels. Here's your"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":39.03,"endTime":42.93,"body":"host, Brad Shreve."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":45.03,"endTime":47.85,"body":"Hi, this is Brad"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":45.03,"endTime":47.85,"body":"and welcome to Queer Writers of"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":47.85,"endTime":51.78,"body":"Crime. My guest today is Barbara"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":47.85,"endTime":51.78,"body":"Wilson, and she has been awarded"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":51.78,"endTime":55.14,"body":"by The Historical Novels"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":51.78,"endTime":55.14,"body":"Society, the British Crime"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":55.17,"endTime":59.28,"body":"Writers Association. She's been"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":55.17,"endTime":59.28,"body":"nominated six times for Lambda"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":59.28,"endTime":63.09,"body":"Literary Awards and won two"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":59.28,"endTime":63.09,"body":"Lammys in those nominations and"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":63.15,"endTime":68.76,"body":"her next book is Love Dies"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":63.15,"endTime":68.76,"body":"Twice. It is currently available"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":68.79,"endTime":72.69,"body":"for preorder. 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And there's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":192.75,"endTime":195.69,"body":"no getaway car."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":196.38,"endTime":198.99,"body":"Well, my guest is"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":196.38,"endTime":198.99,"body":"in London, it's same or in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":198.99,"endTime":202.41,"body":"England. It's the same as here"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":198.99,"endTime":202.41,"body":"in the States, tellers in bank"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":202.41,"endTime":207.42,"body":"managers are told don't fight."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":202.41,"endTime":207.42,"body":"Just give it over. Yeah. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":207.45,"endTime":212.04,"body":"that makes sense. He may have"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":207.45,"endTime":212.04,"body":"had some cash somewhere. Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":212.04,"endTime":215.73,"body":"didn't ask you a question when"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":212.04,"endTime":215.73,"body":"you were on before, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":215.76,"endTime":220.62,"body":"going to ask you now. Not the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":215.76,"endTime":220.62,"body":"real Jupiter came out in 2021."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":221.31,"endTime":226.23,"body":"The Case of the Orphaned"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":221.31,"endTime":226.23,"body":"Basoonist came out in 2000. So"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":226.59,"endTime":231.39,"body":"book number four, the Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":226.59,"endTime":231.39,"body":"mysteries was in Year 2000. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":231.39,"endTime":235.98,"body":"then 21 years later, she's back."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":231.39,"endTime":235.98,"body":"Why did you stop writing?"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":236.04,"endTime":237.42,"body":"Cassandra Reilly mysteries."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":238.71,"endTime":242.82,"body":"I think I wanted"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":238.71,"endTime":242.82,"body":"to try something else. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":242.82,"endTime":246.24,"body":"had always sort of balanced"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":242.82,"endTime":246.24,"body":"writing mysteries with writing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":246.24,"endTime":251.28,"body":"short stories. And I had turned"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":246.24,"endTime":251.28,"body":"my hand to writing a memoir"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":251.28,"endTime":254.82,"body":"about my childhood, called blue"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":251.28,"endTime":254.82,"body":"windows, which was published in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":255.21,"endTime":260.7,"body":"1997. And I really liked writing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":255.21,"endTime":260.7,"body":"nonfiction. I liked writing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":260.73,"endTime":266.46,"body":"essays, and I just had never"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":260.73,"endTime":266.46,"body":"really had the chance. So around"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":266.49,"endTime":272.82,"body":"2000 I, you know, I had been the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":266.49,"endTime":272.82,"body":"owner of one of the owners of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":272.82,"endTime":278.28,"body":"Seal Press and we sold the press"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":272.82,"endTime":278.28,"body":"and I decided that I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":278.28,"endTime":283.23,"body":"do some traveling. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":278.28,"endTime":283.23,"body":"traveled first to the North"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":283.23,"endTime":286.83,"body":"Atlantic, and I wrote a book"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":283.23,"endTime":286.83,"body":"about women in the sea called"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":286.83,"endTime":292.41,"body":"The Pirate Queen. And then I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":286.83,"endTime":292.41,"body":"spent three winters in Lapland"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":292.83,"endTime":296.73,"body":"and wrote a book called The"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":292.83,"endTime":296.73,"body":"Palace of the Snow Queen about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":296.73,"endTime":301.65,"body":"that. And as a result of writing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":296.73,"endTime":301.65,"body":"about In the north of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":301.65,"endTime":307.38,"body":"Scandinavia and the indigenous"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":301.65,"endTime":307.38,"body":"Sami people, I, I started just"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":307.41,"endTime":311.76,"body":"working in that field much more."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":307.41,"endTime":311.76,"body":"And doing a lot of research"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":311.76,"endTime":315.51,"body":"doing a lot of translation. 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And I think that I'd"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":324.15,"endTime":328.08,"body":"been thinking about Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":324.15,"endTime":328.08,"body":"quite a lot in the last year,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":328.08,"endTime":331.95,"body":"sort of, that's my character"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":328.08,"endTime":331.95,"body":"Cassandra Riley, the translators"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":331.95,"endTime":335.34,"body":"Sleuth. And I had been sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":331.95,"endTime":335.34,"body":"missing her and wondering what"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":335.34,"endTime":339.63,"body":"she'd be up to, if I were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":335.34,"endTime":339.63,"body":"allowed to allow her to grow"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":339.69,"endTime":346.11,"body":"older with me. And one day, the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":339.69,"endTime":346.11,"body":"idea came to me for Not the Real"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":346.11,"endTime":349.08,"body":"Jupiter, and I just started"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":346.11,"endTime":349.08,"body":"writing. I think that was a few"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":349.08,"endTime":353.01,"body":"years ago. And I worked on it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":349.08,"endTime":353.01,"body":"and put it aside and worked on"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":353.01,"endTime":358.32,"body":"it again, and finally published"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":353.01,"endTime":358.32,"body":"it last year. And by that time,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":358.32,"endTime":362.22,"body":"I was already writing another"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":358.32,"endTime":362.22,"body":"one. 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And I think"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":374.73,"endTime":378.69,"body":"they allow me to play around"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":374.73,"endTime":378.69,"body":"with language and ideas about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":378.69,"endTime":383.97,"body":"translation. whole mystery genre"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":378.69,"endTime":383.97,"body":"is one I actually really adore."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":384.21,"endTime":388.44,"body":"So it's been it's been so nice,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":384.21,"endTime":388.44,"body":"just to be back in that world"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":388.44,"endTime":388.95,"body":"again."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":390.45,"endTime":393.42,"body":"Well, you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":390.45,"endTime":393.42,"body":"when you were North Atlantic"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":393.42,"endTime":395.07,"body":"that you wrote a book on"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":393.42,"endTime":395.07,"body":"feminism and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":395.76,"endTime":398.25,"body":"women in the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":395.76,"endTime":398.25,"body":"sea. Yeah, stories of women in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":398.25,"endTime":403.35,"body":"the sea and odd places that I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":398.25,"endTime":403.35,"body":"went to, to ask information and,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":403.65,"endTime":408.6,"body":"and tell stories about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":403.65,"endTime":408.6,"body":"everything from mermaids to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":408.6,"endTime":411.09,"body":"fisherwomen to Vikings."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":412.26,"endTime":414.51,"body":"Well as because in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":412.26,"endTime":414.51,"body":"the Cassandra Reilly's"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":414.54,"endTime":418.35,"body":"Mysteries, feminism is very much"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":414.54,"endTime":418.35,"body":"a part of the novels, not just"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":418.35,"endTime":422.04,"body":"because she's a woman, issues"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":418.35,"endTime":422.04,"body":"are brought up. So I'm curious"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":422.04,"endTime":426.15,"body":"over the 20. Year, yeah, over"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":422.04,"endTime":426.15,"body":"that 20 year period, she not"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":426.15,"endTime":429.93,"body":"only is age, but tell me how you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":426.15,"endTime":429.93,"body":"feel about the status of women"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":429.93,"endTime":433.35,"body":"in literature and writing these"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":429.93,"endTime":433.35,"body":"days? Well,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":434.22,"endTime":436.65,"body":"it's always"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":434.22,"endTime":436.65,"body":"changing, some things remain the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":436.65,"endTime":443.04,"body":"same women don't make the same"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":436.65,"endTime":443.04,"body":"living or get the same awards as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":443.04,"endTime":448.11,"body":"men, often. Men don't often read"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":443.04,"endTime":448.11,"body":"women's literature, the women"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":448.11,"endTime":452.19,"body":"read men's literature. So some"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":448.11,"endTime":452.19,"body":"things are the same. But many"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":452.19,"endTime":457.71,"body":"things are much better. I think."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":452.19,"endTime":457.71,"body":"Lots of the most popular books"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":457.71,"endTime":461.52,"body":"in the most honored books these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":457.71,"endTime":461.52,"body":"days are written by women. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":461.52,"endTime":464.52,"body":"that's really different from the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":461.52,"endTime":464.52,"body":"past when women struggled even"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":464.52,"endTime":471.09,"body":"to get published. 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And even though more"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":477.87,"endTime":483.21,"body":"women are heads of companies and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":483.24,"endTime":488.13,"body":"heads of countries, women still"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":483.24,"endTime":488.13,"body":"struggle with preconceptions"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":488.13,"endTime":493.32,"body":"about whether they're able to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":488.13,"endTime":493.32,"body":"lead able to take charge able to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":493.32,"endTime":497.34,"body":"run things. I think we see that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":493.32,"endTime":497.34,"body":"in this country very much so."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":498.51,"endTime":500.37,"body":"Well, we think"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":498.51,"endTime":500.37,"body":"we've come a long way. And then"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":500.43,"endTime":503.28,"body":"let's say you look at a picture"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":500.43,"endTime":503.28,"body":"of Congress. And yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":503.28,"endTime":505.68,"body":"women in there, but not nearly"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":503.28,"endTime":505.68,"body":"enough."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":505.86,"endTime":508.5,"body":"Right? Yes. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":505.86,"endTime":508.5,"body":"some of those women are actually"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":508.5,"endTime":512.7,"body":"crazy. The Republicans. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":508.5,"endTime":512.7,"body":"that's not an advanced in my."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":515.24,"endTime":520.07,"body":"No, I didn't even"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":515.24,"endTime":520.07,"body":"think about that. Maybe that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":520.07,"endTime":523.94,"body":"helps to be a crazy woman to get"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":520.07,"endTime":523.94,"body":"elected. I don't know. So you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":523.94,"endTime":528.56,"body":"kind of touched on it. Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":523.94,"endTime":528.56,"body":"aging. Nero Wolfe was first"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":528.59,"endTime":532.55,"body":"written, I think, in the 1930s."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":528.59,"endTime":532.55,"body":"And those books spanned about 50"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":532.55,"endTime":537.77,"body":"years. Nero Wolfe didn't age,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":532.55,"endTime":537.77,"body":"but New York City did around"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":537.77,"endTime":542.21,"body":"him. Richard Stevenson, Donald"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":537.77,"endTime":542.21,"body":"Strachey novels his first one"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":542.24,"endTime":546.8,"body":"Death Wish that came out during"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":542.24,"endTime":546.8,"body":"the AIDS crisis. His most recent"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":546.8,"endTime":550.43,"body":"novel that came out I think last"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":546.8,"endTime":550.43,"body":"year, they were arguing about"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":550.61,"endTime":556.88,"body":"Trump, yet Donald Strachey he"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":550.61,"endTime":556.88,"body":"had are hardly aged at all. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":556.88,"endTime":561.02,"body":"he said, he said, his publisher"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":556.88,"endTime":561.02,"body":"told him in the early days that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":561.02,"endTime":566.78,"body":"nobody wants to read about old"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":561.02,"endTime":566.78,"body":"people. So if you were starting"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":566.78,"endTime":571.37,"body":"as a new writer today, this your"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":566.78,"endTime":571.37,"body":"first novel, would you feel"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":571.4,"endTime":575.63,"body":"comfortable writing about an"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":571.4,"endTime":575.63,"body":"older Sleuth? And do you think"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":575.63,"endTime":578.96,"body":"it would be more difficult to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":575.63,"endTime":578.96,"body":"get published? Well, it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":578.96,"endTime":581.69,"body":"depends on how"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":578.96,"endTime":581.69,"body":"old I was if I was starting with"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":581.69,"endTime":587.78,"body":"my first novel, but was as old"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":581.69,"endTime":587.78,"body":"as I am now. That would be quite"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":587.78,"endTime":592.16,"body":"an accomplishment, actually. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":587.78,"endTime":592.16,"body":"I think it's more interesting to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":592.16,"endTime":597.59,"body":"me that I started writing about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":592.16,"endTime":597.59,"body":"Cassandra way back when I about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":597.59,"endTime":601.34,"body":"30 years ago, and she was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":597.59,"endTime":601.34,"body":"actually Oh, than I was at that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":601.34,"endTime":605.27,"body":"point, and I was just kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":601.34,"endTime":605.27,"body":"curious, when I was in my 30s,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":605.3,"endTime":611.75,"body":"what a woman in her 40s would be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":605.3,"endTime":611.75,"body":"like, I thought that is older."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":612.26,"endTime":617.66,"body":"And so she's now a little bit"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":612.26,"endTime":617.66,"body":"younger than I am, because I've"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":617.66,"endTime":622.7,"body":"had to keep her sort of pre"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":617.66,"endTime":622.7,"body":"COVID time so that she can still"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":622.7,"endTime":629.12,"body":"travel. So the last book is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":622.7,"endTime":629.12,"body":"taking place in 2019, is taking"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":629.12,"endTime":633.38,"body":"place in England. And she goes"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":629.12,"endTime":633.38,"body":"to Barcelona, and she goes to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":633.38,"endTime":637.55,"body":"Brussels and brews. And she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":633.38,"endTime":637.55,"body":"wouldn't be able to do that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":637.61,"endTime":641.42,"body":"really so easily with COVID. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":637.61,"endTime":641.42,"body":"had some interesting"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":641.42,"endTime":646.67,"body":"conversations after I published"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":641.42,"endTime":646.67,"body":"not the real Jupiter, because"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":647.72,"endTime":651.83,"body":"some writers I talked to said,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":647.72,"endTime":651.83,"body":"no, they had never aged their"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":651.83,"endTime":656.51,"body":"detective, they'd been told,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":651.83,"endTime":656.51,"body":"don't do that, you know, keep"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":656.51,"endTime":660.59,"body":"them at least, you know, early"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":656.51,"endTime":660.59,"body":"40s. So they can still run"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":660.59,"endTime":663.92,"body":"around and cause trouble. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":660.59,"endTime":663.92,"body":"do see the issue because"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":663.92,"endTime":667.88,"body":"physically as you get to be in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":663.92,"endTime":667.88,"body":"your 60s and 70s, you can't jump"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":667.88,"endTime":672.74,"body":"out of windows. And, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":667.88,"endTime":672.74,"body":"lot of people are not quite as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":672.74,"endTime":678.23,"body":"physically fit as they were 3040"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":672.74,"endTime":678.23,"body":"years ago. But I think what you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":679.37,"endTime":683.24,"body":"gain by having an older"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":679.37,"endTime":683.24,"body":"detective and having told the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":683.24,"endTime":686.0,"body":"story of someone's life is that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":683.24,"endTime":686.0,"body":"you have that wonderful"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":686.0,"endTime":690.71,"body":"retrospective view that they can"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":686.0,"endTime":690.71,"body":"look back at times in the past,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":690.77,"endTime":695.75,"body":"in their own life, and in the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":690.77,"endTime":695.75,"body":"culture of gay lesbian life. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":695.75,"endTime":699.8,"body":"they can remember what the bars"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":695.75,"endTime":699.8,"body":"were like, what the early days"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":699.8,"endTime":703.16,"body":"were like, what the homophobia"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":699.8,"endTime":703.16,"body":"was, like, they have that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":703.22,"endTime":707.21,"body":"wisdom, and that experience. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":703.22,"endTime":707.21,"body":"I think that's actually very"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":707.21,"endTime":711.95,"body":"valuable to us, as queer people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":707.21,"endTime":711.95,"body":"to have elders who tell the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":711.95,"endTime":717.83,"body":"story of what it was like. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":711.95,"endTime":717.83,"body":"think your elders also can act"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":717.83,"endTime":724.85,"body":"as role models, I mean, not in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":717.83,"endTime":724.85,"body":"terms of being perfect and, you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":724.85,"endTime":729.14,"body":"know, being educators. But just"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":724.85,"endTime":729.14,"body":"showing can survive all these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":729.14,"endTime":733.4,"body":"years. You can be happy, you can"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":729.14,"endTime":733.4,"body":"be still working, you can be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":733.4,"endTime":737.12,"body":"energetic, you can fall in love,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":733.4,"endTime":737.12,"body":"you can have sex when you're 60."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":737.36,"endTime":740.93,"body":"And when you're 70. And for that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":737.36,"endTime":740.93,"body":"matter, probably when you're 80."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":740.96,"endTime":743.03,"body":"I don't know, I'm not quite"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":740.96,"endTime":743.03,"body":"there yet."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":744.23,"endTime":746.48,"body":"What it is a you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":744.23,"endTime":746.48,"body":"are allowed to be older and"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":746.48,"endTime":750.74,"body":"queer these days it was wasn't"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":746.48,"endTime":750.74,"body":"allowed the past once you hit"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":750.77,"endTime":755.57,"body":"30. You were you supposed to go"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":750.77,"endTime":755.57,"body":"away? You talked about COVID? Do"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":755.57,"endTime":759.62,"body":"you anticipate adding COVID? In"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":755.57,"endTime":759.62,"body":"maybe your next book? Or do you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":759.62,"endTime":760.7,"body":"think you'll skip over it?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":760.73,"endTime":763.31,"body":"Now I think I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":760.73,"endTime":763.31,"body":"will add it I've kind of thought"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":763.31,"endTime":767.48,"body":"about that in different ways."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":763.31,"endTime":767.48,"body":"One is that I have Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":767.54,"endTime":772.1,"body":"sort of stuck somewhere during"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":767.54,"endTime":772.1,"body":"COVID, like in key lay, for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":772.1,"endTime":777.23,"body":"instance, and starting to write"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":772.1,"endTime":777.23,"body":"her stories of when she was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":777.23,"endTime":780.83,"body":"younger, say she's remembering"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":777.23,"endTime":780.83,"body":"things while still being stuck"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":780.83,"endTime":784.49,"body":"there. And another is to kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":780.83,"endTime":784.49,"body":"skip forward a little bit to the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":784.49,"endTime":788.75,"body":"time when we can travel again."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":784.49,"endTime":788.75,"body":"And so maybe she's masked or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":788.75,"endTime":793.01,"body":"maybe she's eager to get out"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":788.75,"endTime":793.01,"body":"into the world again, times have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":793.01,"endTime":798.68,"body":"changed. I think I'll be ready"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":793.01,"endTime":798.68,"body":"to explore that. And I kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":798.68,"endTime":804.35,"body":"made a few fumbling attempts to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":798.68,"endTime":804.35,"body":"set it after COVID. It's hard"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":804.35,"endTime":808.52,"body":"because I don't actually feel"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":804.35,"endTime":808.52,"body":"like it's after COVID. It's sort"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":808.52,"endTime":814.37,"body":"of getting close possibly to one"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":808.52,"endTime":814.37,"body":"phase being over. Yeah, that's a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":814.37,"endTime":817.61,"body":"tricky question. For most of us"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":814.37,"endTime":817.61,"body":"as writers, how much are we"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":817.61,"endTime":820.61,"body":"going to incorporate this"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":817.61,"endTime":820.61,"body":"strange last couple of years?"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":821.33,"endTime":823.28,"body":"Yes, it's been"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":821.33,"endTime":823.28,"body":"really mixed in when you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":823.28,"endTime":827.81,"body":"mentioned it, you reminded me of"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":823.28,"endTime":827.81,"body":"a email I got from a reader,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":828.11,"endTime":831.5,"body":"which is why I asked you and she"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":828.11,"endTime":831.5,"body":"said, Brad, I'm sorry, I heard"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":831.5,"endTime":834.32,"body":"you say you're going to have"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":831.5,"endTime":834.32,"body":"COVID in your next novel, and I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":834.32,"endTime":837.71,"body":"won't be able to read it. And I,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":834.32,"endTime":837.71,"body":"I sent back I said first of all,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":837.71,"endTime":841.79,"body":"I don't remember ever COVID My"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":837.71,"endTime":841.79,"body":"next novel, I always set my"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":841.79,"endTime":845.54,"body":"novel a year behind. So I can"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":841.79,"endTime":845.54,"body":"put real events that I'm going"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":845.54,"endTime":849.02,"body":"to leave it further behind the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":845.54,"endTime":849.02,"body":"next one. And I understand where"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":849.02,"endTime":851.75,"body":"she's coming from everybody's"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":849.02,"endTime":851.75,"body":"really tired of it now. And I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":851.75,"endTime":854.93,"body":"really hear a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":851.75,"endTime":854.93,"body":"authors. Some are saying they're"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":854.93,"endTime":856.94,"body":"going to put it because they"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":854.93,"endTime":856.94,"body":"want to be real. And they think,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":857.48,"endTime":862.49,"body":"in fact of reader told me"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":857.48,"endTime":862.49,"body":"yesterday, that 30 years from"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":862.49,"endTime":865.1,"body":"now, it needs to be in fiction,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":862.49,"endTime":865.1,"body":"so people know what it was like."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":866.42,"endTime":868.67,"body":"And actually, that's the second"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":866.42,"endTime":868.67,"body":"time somebody has said that to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":868.67,"endTime":871.07,"body":"me. And it's interesting because"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":868.67,"endTime":871.07,"body":"others are saying I don't want"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":871.07,"endTime":873.38,"body":"to hear about it. So an"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":871.07,"endTime":873.38,"body":"interesting trace that you're"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":873.38,"endTime":878.0,"body":"choosing to do that. It'll be"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":873.38,"endTime":878.0,"body":"very interesting to see how you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":878.03,"endTime":880.37,"body":"have her operate in a COVID"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":878.03,"endTime":880.37,"body":"environment"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":880.37,"endTime":882.68,"body":"is a challenge."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":880.37,"endTime":882.68,"body":"That's a challenge. Well, it's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":882.68,"endTime":886.49,"body":"been a different experience for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":882.68,"endTime":886.49,"body":"everyone. Some people who are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":886.49,"endTime":890.24,"body":"first responders or who are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":886.49,"endTime":890.24,"body":"nurses have had a really"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":890.24,"endTime":894.62,"body":"different time than those of us"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":890.24,"endTime":894.62,"body":"who are lucky enough to have a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":894.62,"endTime":899.24,"body":"stable living situation and are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":894.62,"endTime":899.24,"body":"mostly just bored and sad"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":899.24,"endTime":902.45,"body":"sometimes We can't see our"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":899.24,"endTime":902.45,"body":"friends and do what we wanted."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":902.69,"endTime":906.68,"body":"That's that's really different."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":902.69,"endTime":906.68,"body":"People have kids, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":906.71,"endTime":909.77,"body":"I've had a really different"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":906.71,"endTime":909.77,"body":"experience these last two years."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":912.35,"endTime":916.4,"body":"Yes really has been"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":912.35,"endTime":916.4,"body":"different. I, I just moved to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":916.4,"endTime":919.04,"body":"the desert, and I'm in the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":916.4,"endTime":919.04,"body":"middle of Trump country here in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":919.04,"endTime":922.25,"body":"California. And it's really"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":919.04,"endTime":922.25,"body":"interesting to me to go down to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":922.25,"endTime":924.83,"body":"Los Angeles, and people are"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":922.25,"endTime":924.83,"body":"wearing their mask while they're"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":924.83,"endTime":929.84,"body":"at the pump, pumping gas. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":924.83,"endTime":929.84,"body":"they come back up here in half"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":929.9,"endTime":932.24,"body":"after people aren't wearing"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":929.9,"endTime":932.24,"body":"masks, the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":932.24,"endTime":937.07,"body":"hospital has the triage tent out"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":932.24,"endTime":937.07,"body":"in the emergency room and people"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":937.07,"endTime":940.25,"body":"are being turned away. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":937.07,"endTime":940.25,"body":"everybody's walking around like,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":940.4,"endTime":942.53,"body":"nothing's happened. It's very"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":940.4,"endTime":942.53,"body":"strange."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":942.65,"endTime":944.87,"body":"It is strange."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":942.65,"endTime":944.87,"body":"Yeah. So there are going to be a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":944.87,"endTime":947.87,"body":"lot of different kinds of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":944.87,"endTime":947.87,"body":"stories, when people finally"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":947.96,"endTime":949.04,"body":"start writing them."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":949.91,"endTime":951.17,"body":"Lots of interesting"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":949.91,"endTime":951.17,"body":"ways."},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":953.09,"endTime":956.33,"body":"You can get more"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":953.09,"endTime":956.33,"body":"information about episodes, plus"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":956.36,"endTime":960.71,"body":"scoops on book releases and"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":956.36,"endTime":960.71,"body":"promotions by LGBTQ prime"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":960.71,"endTime":964.67,"body":"authors each and every week,"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":960.71,"endTime":964.67,"body":"simply head over to queer"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":964.67,"endTime":969.2,"body":"writers of crime.com. And sign"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":964.67,"endTime":969.2,"body":"up for the newsletter. If you"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":969.2,"endTime":973.49,"body":"wait until this episode is over,"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":969.2,"endTime":973.49,"body":"you may forget so proud made it"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":973.49,"endTime":977.69,"body":"easy. And to put the link right"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":973.49,"endTime":977.69,"body":"here in the show notes. Need a"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":977.69,"endTime":982.13,"body":"little nudge. Click it now. And"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":977.69,"endTime":982.13,"body":"you'll also get a free ebook by"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":982.13,"endTime":986.0,"body":"one of a select group of"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":982.13,"endTime":986.0,"body":"outstanding Authors that makes"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":986.0,"endTime":990.41,"body":"not subscribing just plain"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":986.0,"endTime":990.41,"body":"silly. It's all yours at queer"},{"speaker":"Announcer","startTime":990.41,"endTime":992.15,"body":"writers of crime.com."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":997.04,"endTime":999.59,"body":"We talked about"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":997.04,"endTime":999.59,"body":"Cassandra Riley and I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":999.59,"endTime":1004.03,"body":"the book Love dice twice. So now"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":999.59,"endTime":1004.03,"body":"is the time for you. I'm going"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1004.03,"endTime":1007.63,"body":"to start calling this beyond the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1004.03,"endTime":1007.63,"body":"blurb. Obviously, you can't tell"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1007.63,"endTime":1010.15,"body":"us the whole story. But tell us"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1007.63,"endTime":1010.15,"body":"as much as you can about the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1010.33,"endTime":1010.96,"body":"novel."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1011.02,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"Well, the novel"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1011.02,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"takes place in London for the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1014.32,"endTime":1020.59,"body":"most part. And it begins when"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1014.32,"endTime":1020.59,"body":"Cassandra has a lunch date with"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1020.59,"endTime":1026.02,"body":"an agent that she knows literary"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1020.59,"endTime":1026.02,"body":"agent named Avery, who's also an"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1026.02,"endTime":1030.28,"body":"American living in London for a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1026.02,"endTime":1030.28,"body":"long time. And Cassandra is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1030.28,"endTime":1035.83,"body":"always trying to get her authors"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1030.28,"endTime":1035.83,"body":"translated, and she translates"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1035.83,"endTime":1041.2,"body":"from Spanish. So in this case,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1035.83,"endTime":1041.2,"body":"it's a writer who lives in Spain"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1041.23,"endTime":1046.66,"body":"who is writing about a detective"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1041.23,"endTime":1046.66,"body":"who's a former Matador a woman."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1047.17,"endTime":1053.11,"body":"And in the middle of this lunch,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1047.17,"endTime":1053.11,"body":"the agent suddenly tells"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1053.44,"endTime":1059.17,"body":"Cassandra that she wants her to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1053.44,"endTime":1059.17,"body":"come to a talk lecture. And it's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1059.17,"endTime":1064.03,"body":"on medieval. It's on medieval"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1059.17,"endTime":1064.03,"body":"women. And Cassandra heads off"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1064.03,"endTime":1069.07,"body":"with her. And it turns out it's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1064.03,"endTime":1069.07,"body":"has to do with a woman named"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1069.07,"endTime":1075.1,"body":"Stella Terwicker, who was a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1069.07,"endTime":1075.1,"body":"historical mystery writer, maybe"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1075.1,"endTime":1079.51,"body":"gay, maybe not that she's been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1075.1,"endTime":1079.51,"body":"dead from for 10 years from"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1079.51,"endTime":1083.71,"body":"pneumonia. And her sister in law"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1079.51,"endTime":1083.71,"body":"has written a biography about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1083.71,"endTime":1089.71,"body":"her. And this kind of, is the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1083.71,"endTime":1089.71,"body":"catalyzing event that ends up"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1089.71,"endTime":1093.88,"body":"with someone dead, someone"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1089.71,"endTime":1093.88,"body":"drowned in a pond on Hampstead"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1093.88,"endTime":1098.83,"body":"Heath. And Cassandra being drawn"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1093.88,"endTime":1098.83,"body":"into it in various ways, even"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1098.83,"endTime":1102.64,"body":"though she doesn't know the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1098.83,"endTime":1102.64,"body":"person who was killed. She"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1102.64,"endTime":1106.9,"body":"becomes involved in the in the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1102.64,"endTime":1106.9,"body":"world around this woman and in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1106.93,"endTime":1110.62,"body":"the story of Stella Tur. Wicker"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1106.93,"endTime":1110.62,"body":"too, and all of these historical"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1110.62,"endTime":1114.22,"body":"mysteries, which play a role in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1110.62,"endTime":1114.22,"body":"the mystery that I'm writing."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1114.67,"endTime":1121.33,"body":"And they take her to the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1114.67,"endTime":1121.33,"body":"southern coast of England, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1121.33,"endTime":1129.1,"body":"also to Bruges in Belgium,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1121.33,"endTime":1129.1,"body":"following people, putting"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1129.1,"endTime":1134.17,"body":"yourself in danger, getting a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1129.1,"endTime":1134.17,"body":"cold, that turns into a very,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1134.2,"endTime":1139.75,"body":"very terrible cough, being"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1134.2,"endTime":1139.75,"body":"submerged in water herself. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1139.84,"endTime":1144.34,"body":"of course, eventually, she finds"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1139.84,"endTime":1144.34,"body":"out who might have done it and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1144.34,"endTime":1147.73,"body":"solves the murder in the best"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1144.34,"endTime":1147.73,"body":"possible way."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1148.63,"endTime":1152.23,"body":"So regarding"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1148.63,"endTime":1152.23,"body":"Cassandra, you your first novels"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1152.23,"endTime":1155.86,"body":"were the pen Nelson mysteries."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1152.23,"endTime":1155.86,"body":"I'll get to your earlier"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1155.86,"endTime":1159.73,"body":"writings later, but your third"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1155.86,"endTime":1159.73,"body":"Pam Nelson novel came out in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1159.79,"endTime":1165.37,"body":"1989, I believe. And then your"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1159.79,"endTime":1165.37,"body":"first Cassandra novel came out"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1165.37,"endTime":1170.59,"body":"in 1990. Pam stopped at three."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1165.37,"endTime":1170.59,"body":"So I'm curious about Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1170.59,"endTime":1173.35,"body":"because I really liked her as a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1170.59,"endTime":1173.35,"body":"character and obviously you do."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1173.8,"endTime":1176.68,"body":"What do you think compelled you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1173.8,"endTime":1176.68,"body":"to switch? What was it about the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1176.68,"endTime":1180.04,"body":"Cassandra character that pulled"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1176.68,"endTime":1180.04,"body":"you away from Pam Nelson?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1180.34,"endTime":1183.67,"body":"Well, the PAM"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1180.34,"endTime":1183.67,"body":"Nilsen novels I'm very fond of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1184.57,"endTime":1188.11,"body":"and a lot of people always urged"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1184.57,"endTime":1188.11,"body":"me to go on with her. She"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1188.11,"endTime":1192.94,"body":"reflected a time in my life in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1188.11,"endTime":1192.94,"body":"the 80s when a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1192.94,"endTime":1197.8,"body":"worked in collectives. And in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1192.94,"endTime":1197.8,"body":"this case, it was a printing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1197.8,"endTime":1202.48,"body":"collective and it was based on"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1197.8,"endTime":1202.48,"body":"Some people I knew, and early"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1202.48,"endTime":1206.68,"body":"days of sail press as well in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1202.48,"endTime":1206.68,"body":"Pioneer Square. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1206.68,"endTime":1212.92,"body":"world was starting to dissolve a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1206.68,"endTime":1212.92,"body":"bit, I would have a hard time"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1212.95,"endTime":1218.26,"body":"now sort of figure figuring out"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1212.95,"endTime":1218.26,"body":"who Pam was and what she ended"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1218.26,"endTime":1221.8,"body":"up doing with her life, I kind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1218.26,"endTime":1221.8,"body":"of brought things to a close in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1221.8,"endTime":1226.0,"body":"the third novel, with her"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1221.8,"endTime":1226.0,"body":"finding love with her"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1226.0,"endTime":1232.6,"body":"girlfriend, Hadley, and kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1226.0,"endTime":1232.6,"body":"coming to the end of that way of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1232.6,"endTime":1236.95,"body":"writing mysteries that were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1232.6,"endTime":1236.95,"body":"about feminist issues in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1236.95,"endTime":1244.72,"body":"particular, like, I tackled"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1236.95,"endTime":1244.72,"body":"race, I tackles pornography, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1244.75,"endTime":1252.73,"body":"abuse and issues around SM, you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1244.75,"endTime":1252.73,"body":"know, kind of will like touch."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1252.85,"endTime":1257.47,"body":"But they were a little bit"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1252.85,"endTime":1257.47,"body":"didactic in some ways. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1257.47,"endTime":1261.07,"body":"think people like them, because"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1257.47,"endTime":1261.07,"body":"they they brought lots of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1261.07,"endTime":1265.54,"body":"questions to the fore, that in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1261.07,"endTime":1265.54,"body":"the 80s, women, lesbians were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1265.54,"endTime":1269.41,"body":"very preoccupied with, what"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1265.54,"endTime":1269.41,"body":"should our community look like."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1269.77,"endTime":1273.4,"body":"And I think that I just came to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1269.77,"endTime":1273.4,"body":"the end of that. The other thing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1273.4,"endTime":1277.72,"body":"is that I was living in England,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1273.4,"endTime":1277.72,"body":"I had a lover who was British."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1278.05,"endTime":1281.08,"body":"And I was there for several"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1278.05,"endTime":1281.08,"body":"years and going back and forth."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1281.08,"endTime":1283.93,"body":"And I think for a time I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1281.08,"endTime":1283.93,"body":"actually thought I might even"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1283.96,"endTime":1288.58,"body":"move to England permanently. But"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1283.96,"endTime":1288.58,"body":"I was traveling a lot, and I was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1288.58,"endTime":1293.08,"body":"doing some translation. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1288.58,"endTime":1293.08,"body":"think I wanted a character who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1293.08,"endTime":1301.03,"body":"was not such a strong lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1293.08,"endTime":1301.03,"body":"feminist who was more fluid, who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1302.17,"endTime":1306.1,"body":"slept with a lot of women who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1302.17,"endTime":1306.1,"body":"traveled and moved in cultures"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1306.1,"endTime":1310.84,"body":"where, you know, people were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1306.1,"endTime":1310.84,"body":"just lesbians, they were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1310.84,"endTime":1315.79,"body":"married, they were bisexual. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1310.84,"endTime":1315.79,"body":"was interested in exploring"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1315.79,"endTime":1322.36,"body":"those sort of outer edges of the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1315.79,"endTime":1322.36,"body":"lesbian world. And I had been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1322.36,"endTime":1326.92,"body":"asked to write a short story for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1322.36,"endTime":1326.92,"body":"an anthology, and I kind of came"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1326.92,"endTime":1330.85,"body":"up with this character of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1326.92,"endTime":1330.85,"body":"Cassandra. And from then on, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1331.84,"endTime":1335.83,"body":"really wanted to stick with her."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1331.84,"endTime":1335.83,"body":"And I know that that was a kind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1335.83,"endTime":1339.76,"body":"of a shift and a shock for some"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1335.83,"endTime":1339.76,"body":"of my readers, because she was a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1339.76,"endTime":1342.88,"body":"really, really different"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1339.76,"endTime":1342.88,"body":"character than Pam had been, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1342.88,"endTime":1348.1,"body":"think Pam was easier for people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1342.88,"endTime":1348.1,"body":"to identify with. But it was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1348.1,"endTime":1351.91,"body":"also interesting because"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1348.1,"endTime":1351.91,"body":"Cassandra was someone that kind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1351.91,"endTime":1356.5,"body":"of cross more borders. And those"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1351.91,"endTime":1356.5,"body":"books were read by, I think, a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1356.53,"endTime":1360.37,"body":"slightly wider audience than"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1356.53,"endTime":1360.37,"body":"just lesbian feminists."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1361.48,"endTime":1364.81,"body":"Over that 20 year"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1361.48,"endTime":1364.81,"body":"period, that when we came back"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1364.81,"endTime":1369.34,"body":"to Sandra, she is still single,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1364.81,"endTime":1369.34,"body":"did she have a relationship"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1369.34,"endTime":1372.46,"body":"during that time period? I don't"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1369.34,"endTime":1372.46,"body":"think so. And what are why have"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1372.46,"endTime":1373.27,"body":"you chose not to,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1373.48,"endTime":1376.9,"body":"she's always"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1373.48,"endTime":1376.9,"body":"seeing someone, she's got a very"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1376.9,"endTime":1382.9,"body":"roving eye in. And she doesn't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1376.9,"endTime":1382.9,"body":"get in tragic affairs, and she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1382.9,"endTime":1386.8,"body":"doesn't hurt people's feelings."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1382.9,"endTime":1386.8,"body":"You know, things are getting"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1386.8,"endTime":1391.3,"body":"complicated, she'll leave the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1386.8,"endTime":1391.3,"body":"country. So I think she and her"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1391.3,"endTime":1394.99,"body":"best friend Nikki are sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1391.3,"endTime":1394.99,"body":"alike in that way. They're"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1394.99,"endTime":1400.09,"body":"flatmates in London, and Nikki"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1394.99,"endTime":1400.09,"body":"is a retired bassoonist. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1400.12,"endTime":1404.02,"body":"they don't have a sexual"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1400.12,"endTime":1404.02,"body":"relationship. They're sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1404.02,"endTime":1407.38,"body":"family to each other. But I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1404.02,"endTime":1407.38,"body":"think they both have an eye for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1407.38,"endTime":1412.51,"body":"the ladies. And so they joke"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1407.38,"endTime":1412.51,"body":"about that, and from time to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1412.51,"endTime":1416.14,"body":"time, one of them is involved in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1412.51,"endTime":1416.14,"body":"relationship. That's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1419.56,"body":"usually short, but they always"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1419.56,"body":"kind of come back to each other."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1419.74,"endTime":1424.48,"body":"So Cassandra has that long term"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1419.74,"endTime":1424.48,"body":"relationship with her friend,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1424.51,"endTime":1429.34,"body":"Nikki, in all of the books, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1424.51,"endTime":1429.34,"body":"sometimes Nikki is playing a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1429.34,"endTime":1434.02,"body":"larger role. And that's true and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1429.34,"endTime":1434.02,"body":"love dies twice, that Nikki is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1434.02,"endTime":1439.06,"body":"actually with her on some of her"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1434.02,"endTime":1439.06,"body":"investigations, and they go to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1439.06,"endTime":1444.31,"body":"Bruges together, and Nikki is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1439.06,"endTime":1444.31,"body":"kind of spinning some ideas off"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1444.31,"endTime":1446.35,"body":"as well about what might have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1444.31,"endTime":1446.35,"body":"happened."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1446.8,"endTime":1448.99,"body":"That's not"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1446.8,"endTime":1448.99,"body":"uncommon, the long term"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1448.99,"endTime":1452.44,"body":"relationships that can last"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1448.99,"endTime":1452.44,"body":"decades with it just stained"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1452.44,"endTime":1456.19,"body":"friendship, and that kind of"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1452.44,"endTime":1456.19,"body":"fulfills that desire to be"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1456.19,"endTime":1460.12,"body":"settled. But then there's the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1456.19,"endTime":1460.12,"body":"wandering eye sight of a person."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1460.42,"endTime":1461.56,"body":"That's not uncommon, is it?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1461.59,"endTime":1465.61,"body":"No, it's not at"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1461.59,"endTime":1465.61,"body":"all. It's not. And I was very"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1465.61,"endTime":1469.33,"body":"interested in love dice twice in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1465.61,"endTime":1469.33,"body":"exploring lots of different"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1469.33,"endTime":1475.3,"body":"kinds of lesbian lives. And also"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1469.33,"endTime":1475.3,"body":"lesbian loves. Some of them are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1475.3,"endTime":1478.93,"body":"friendships. Some are there are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1475.3,"endTime":1478.93,"body":"obsessions. Some of them are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1478.93,"endTime":1482.44,"body":"long ago relationships that you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1478.93,"endTime":1482.44,"body":"just can't get out of your mind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1482.44,"endTime":1486.16,"body":"that are still kind of wreaking"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1482.44,"endTime":1486.16,"body":"havoc in your psyche. You've"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1486.16,"endTime":1491.77,"body":"never gotten over that person."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1486.16,"endTime":1491.77,"body":"And some are very chaste, sort"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1491.77,"endTime":1496.36,"body":"of romances, and I've seen all"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1491.77,"endTime":1496.36,"body":"those things in the circles that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1496.36,"endTime":1500.14,"body":"I move in, and I don't but I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1496.36,"endTime":1500.14,"body":"haven't seen them really written"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1500.14,"endTime":1504.82,"body":"About over a long period of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1500.14,"endTime":1504.82,"body":"time. I mean, I think that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1505.09,"endTime":1510.04,"body":"lesbian novels are so much about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1505.09,"endTime":1510.04,"body":"youthful relationships,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1510.22,"endTime":1514.99,"body":"especially these days with YA"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1510.22,"endTime":1514.99,"body":"novels, taking up such a share"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1514.99,"endTime":1520.84,"body":"with the market, I think we're"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1514.99,"endTime":1520.84,"body":"lacking not only examples in our"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1520.84,"endTime":1526.12,"body":"literature of really healthy,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1520.84,"endTime":1526.12,"body":"happy married life, where that's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1526.12,"endTime":1532.36,"body":"a little bit boring, maybe we're"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1526.12,"endTime":1532.36,"body":"also lacking pictures of women"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1532.36,"endTime":1537.34,"body":"who are older who are still on"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1532.36,"endTime":1537.34,"body":"the make, basically. And I think"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1537.34,"endTime":1541.03,"body":"that's really true to not"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1537.34,"endTime":1541.03,"body":"everyone is just married these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1541.03,"endTime":1541.57,"body":"days."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1543.19,"endTime":1548.41,"body":"I am now as you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1543.19,"endTime":1548.41,"body":"were describing that, I'm"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1548.41,"endTime":1550.18,"body":"thinking, well, she's married."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1552.04,"endTime":1555.1,"body":"I know. It's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1552.04,"endTime":1555.1,"body":"good, though. I didn't settle"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1555.1,"endTime":1556.51,"body":"down until I was older."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1558.19,"endTime":1561.61,"body":"I love being"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1558.19,"endTime":1561.61,"body":"settled. Yeah. Though, I have my"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1561.61,"endTime":1565.84,"body":"day, and I had a good time."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1561.61,"endTime":1565.84,"body":"Yeah. So sticking with the aging"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1565.84,"endTime":1570.91,"body":"thing you wrote an article for"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1565.84,"endTime":1570.91,"body":"crime reads and you said that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1570.97,"endTime":1574.24,"body":"one of the reasons you had"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1570.97,"endTime":1574.24,"body":"Cassandra ages because you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1574.24,"endTime":1579.85,"body":"wanted to explore the idea of a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1574.24,"endTime":1579.85,"body":"lesbian spinster? As I was"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1579.85,"endTime":1583.24,"body":"reading that I'm thinking of"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1579.85,"endTime":1583.24,"body":"Miss Marple. Do you think"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1583.24,"endTime":1585.04,"body":"Cassandra is a spinster?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1586.42,"endTime":1589.39,"body":"Well, the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1586.42,"endTime":1589.39,"body":"traditional definition of a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1589.39,"endTime":1593.77,"body":"spinster is not married. You"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1589.39,"endTime":1593.77,"body":"know, up until recently, most of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1593.77,"endTime":1597.58,"body":"us were spinsters because we"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1593.77,"endTime":1597.58,"body":"couldn't marry so many people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1597.58,"endTime":1602.17,"body":"were in committed relationships."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1597.58,"endTime":1602.17,"body":"Yeah, I think she's a spinster."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1603.64,"endTime":1608.62,"body":"And I think that what makes it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1603.64,"endTime":1608.62,"body":"really interesting is that there"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1608.62,"endTime":1611.41,"body":"is this whole tradition and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1608.62,"endTime":1611.41,"body":"mystery writing of the spinster"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1611.41,"endTime":1615.19,"body":"sleuth, and they're usually"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1611.41,"endTime":1615.19,"body":"older, at least in their 60s,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1615.25,"endTime":1619.72,"body":"and they've got their knitting,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1615.25,"endTime":1619.72,"body":"and they've got their white hair"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1619.72,"endTime":1622.42,"body":"and they live in a little"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1619.72,"endTime":1622.42,"body":"village in England somewhere,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1622.75,"endTime":1625.45,"body":"and they're very observant."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1622.75,"endTime":1625.45,"body":"They're very nosy In fact, they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1625.45,"endTime":1629.17,"body":"ask a lot of odd questions, but"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1625.45,"endTime":1629.17,"body":"they're cogitating the whole"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1629.17,"endTime":1634.39,"body":"time. And that's a real"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1629.17,"endTime":1634.39,"body":"tradition, especially in British"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1634.42,"endTime":1638.5,"body":"mysteries. You know, we don't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1634.42,"endTime":1638.5,"body":"really have that in the same way"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1638.5,"endTime":1643.57,"body":"in American literature, we've"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1638.5,"endTime":1643.57,"body":"got private eyes, who drink a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1643.57,"endTime":1649.03,"body":"lot, who are depressed, often"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1643.57,"endTime":1649.03,"body":"who have complicated family"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1649.03,"endTime":1657.58,"body":"relationships. And who are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1649.03,"endTime":1657.58,"body":"usually about 35, maybe 40. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1657.58,"endTime":1661.21,"body":"they go on kind of year after"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1657.58,"endTime":1661.21,"body":"year, in the mean, streets of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1661.21,"endTime":1666.97,"body":"Chicago, or wherever their city"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1661.21,"endTime":1666.97,"body":"is, are usually very urban. But"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1666.97,"endTime":1671.56,"body":"we don't have older women"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1666.97,"endTime":1671.56,"body":"generally. And we almost have no"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1671.59,"endTime":1675.22,"body":"older lesbians. I think that's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1671.59,"endTime":1675.22,"body":"one of the reasons that I'm"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1675.25,"endTime":1678.85,"body":"actually quite interested in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1675.25,"endTime":1678.85,"body":"what Katherine forest is doing,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1679.09,"endTime":1683.74,"body":"because she is one of the few"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1679.09,"endTime":1683.74,"body":"who has led her character, Kay"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1683.74,"endTime":1688.12,"body":"Delafield age, and I think"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1683.74,"endTime":1688.12,"body":"that's wonderful. And I have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1688.12,"endTime":1690.55,"body":"talked to Catherine about it,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1688.12,"endTime":1690.55,"body":"and she says it's the best"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1690.55,"endTime":1694.42,"body":"decision she ever made. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1690.55,"endTime":1694.42,"body":"think you see it in her books"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1694.42,"endTime":1699.37,"body":"that there's now this sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1694.42,"endTime":1699.37,"body":"weight of time, and what Kate"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1699.37,"endTime":1703.45,"body":"has been through in terms of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1699.37,"endTime":1703.45,"body":"what she's seen in her job as a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1703.45,"endTime":1708.34,"body":"police detective. The PSD, she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1703.45,"endTime":1708.34,"body":"sort of suffers from the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1708.34,"endTime":1713.77,"body":"alcoholism, the recovery, the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1708.34,"endTime":1713.77,"body":"friends who stayed with her the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1713.77,"endTime":1717.43,"body":"life she's led, it's a really,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1713.77,"endTime":1717.43,"body":"really valuable portrait of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1717.43,"endTime":1720.88,"body":"lesbian life that she's created"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1717.43,"endTime":1720.88,"body":"over the course of those books."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1721.69,"endTime":1724.39,"body":"You're correct. The"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1721.69,"endTime":1724.39,"body":"definition of spinster is just"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1724.39,"endTime":1728.14,"body":"an unmarried woman. But I think"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1724.39,"endTime":1728.14,"body":"most people tend to think of the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1728.2,"endTime":1732.88,"body":"the older lady with her hair up"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1728.2,"endTime":1732.88,"body":"with a teapot, right? That's why"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1732.91,"endTime":1737.38,"body":"I thought was an interesting"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1732.91,"endTime":1737.38,"body":"choice of words. Two years ago,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1737.44,"endTime":1742.54,"body":"in 2020, the golden crown"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1737.44,"endTime":1742.54,"body":"Literary Society. Typically the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1742.54,"endTime":1745.12,"body":"awards are known as the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1742.54,"endTime":1745.12,"body":"Goldie's, they gave you a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1745.12,"endTime":1749.26,"body":"trailblazer award. Do you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1745.12,"endTime":1749.26,"body":"consider yourself a trailblazer?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1750.76,"endTime":1752.17,"body":"Yes, I suppose I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1750.76,"endTime":1752.17,"body":"do."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1753.55,"endTime":1755.17,"body":"What does that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1753.55,"endTime":1755.17,"body":"mean? Well, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1755.17,"endTime":1758.5,"body":"think those of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1755.17,"endTime":1758.5,"body":"us who've been chosen to be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1758.59,"endTime":1765.16,"body":"Trailblazers by the golden crown"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1758.59,"endTime":1765.16,"body":"society, were probably chosen"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1765.16,"endTime":1770.02,"body":"because we were sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1765.16,"endTime":1770.02,"body":"first to do something. And in my"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1770.02,"endTime":1775.18,"body":"case, my lesbian mystery murder"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1770.02,"endTime":1775.18,"body":"in the collective was one of the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1775.18,"endTime":1779.53,"body":"first lesbian mysteries, and it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1775.18,"endTime":1779.53,"body":"came out the same year as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1779.53,"endTime":1785.77,"body":"Katherine for us, amateur city,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1779.53,"endTime":1785.77,"body":"and she's a trailblazer, too. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1786.16,"endTime":1790.63,"body":"there was that kind of original,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1786.16,"endTime":1790.63,"body":"being at the right place at the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1790.63,"endTime":1795.01,"body":"right time and just thinking"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1790.63,"endTime":1795.01,"body":"this would be a good idea. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1795.01,"endTime":1798.73,"body":"think the other reason that they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1795.01,"endTime":1798.73,"body":"chose me as a trailblazer was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1798.73,"endTime":1803.68,"body":"because I was one of the CO"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1798.73,"endTime":1803.68,"body":"founders of steel press in 1976,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1803.71,"endTime":1809.65,"body":"when I was 25, and that was one"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1803.71,"endTime":1809.65,"body":"of the early was a feminist"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1809.65,"endTime":1812.74,"body":"presses because we published"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1809.65,"endTime":1812.74,"body":"both lesbian and non lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1812.89,"endTime":1817.78,"body":"authors. But it was successful."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1812.89,"endTime":1817.78,"body":"And it published lots of lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1817.78,"endTime":1821.17,"body":"authors. And in fact, it's still"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1817.78,"endTime":1821.17,"body":"going even though it's an"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1821.2,"endTime":1825.49,"body":"imprint of hatchet now, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1821.2,"endTime":1825.49,"body":"still publishing nonfiction"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1825.49,"endTime":1830.53,"body":"anyway, by feminist and lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1825.49,"endTime":1830.53,"body":"writers. So I think of that as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1830.56,"endTime":1835.3,"body":"an achievement. It was, it was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1830.56,"endTime":1835.3,"body":"alternately fun and kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1835.3,"endTime":1840.79,"body":"grueling to be a publisher for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1835.3,"endTime":1840.79,"body":"that long. But I, I'm really"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1840.79,"endTime":1844.42,"body":"glad that I did it. And I feel"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1840.79,"endTime":1844.42,"body":"like I did sort of help make"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1844.42,"endTime":1848.59,"body":"lesbian literature much more"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1844.42,"endTime":1848.59,"body":"widely available, and including"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1848.59,"endTime":1852.85,"body":"voices of women of color, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1848.59,"endTime":1852.85,"body":"women from all walks of life,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1853.12,"endTime":1854.59,"body":"published with seal press."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1855.73,"endTime":1858.73,"body":"What would you say?"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1855.73,"endTime":1858.73,"body":"Maybe somebody has asked, Why"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1858.73,"endTime":1863.5,"body":"does she have to be a lesbian?"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1858.73,"endTime":1863.5,"body":"Who? pam, pam or Cassandra?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1864.07,"endTime":1869.38,"body":"Oh, well, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1864.07,"endTime":1869.38,"body":"mean, the easy answer would be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1869.38,"endTime":1873.55,"body":"because I was lesbian. And so I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1869.38,"endTime":1873.55,"body":"was sort of exploring life"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1873.58,"endTime":1878.5,"body":"through these personas. But I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1873.58,"endTime":1878.5,"body":"also think that, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1878.5,"endTime":1883.36,"body":"hard to remember it now in some"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1878.5,"endTime":1883.36,"body":"ways, but there were so few"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1883.36,"endTime":1889.15,"body":"lesbian novels in the 70s when I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1883.36,"endTime":1889.15,"body":"started writing, and I was kind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1889.15,"endTime":1896.59,"body":"of always looking for models and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1889.15,"endTime":1896.59,"body":"examples and stories that were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1897.94,"endTime":1904.27,"body":"about me and the writers that I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1897.94,"endTime":1904.27,"body":"read Colette and Virginia Woolf"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1904.3,"endTime":1910.03,"body":"and Simone de Beauvoir. They"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1904.3,"endTime":1910.03,"body":"were not lesbian, like I was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1910.03,"endTime":1914.53,"body":"more like my friends were, they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1910.03,"endTime":1914.53,"body":"were literary writers who were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1914.53,"endTime":1918.19,"body":"always had relationships with"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1914.53,"endTime":1918.19,"body":"man as well. And then there was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1918.19,"endTime":1921.43,"body":"this alternate tradition, which"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1918.19,"endTime":1921.43,"body":"was the sort of underground"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1921.43,"endTime":1925.96,"body":"press and these great books like"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1921.43,"endTime":1925.96,"body":"people bring her. And I was not"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1926.02,"endTime":1930.4,"body":"quite so aware of them. A little"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1926.02,"endTime":1930.4,"body":"bit aware of them in the 60s and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1930.4,"endTime":1935.74,"body":"70s. But at that time, kind of a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1930.4,"endTime":1935.74,"body":"renaissance of writing about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1936.37,"endTime":1940.42,"body":"lesbians, and, you know, all gay"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1936.37,"endTime":1940.42,"body":"people, this was going on in gay"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1940.42,"endTime":1946.12,"body":"male writing, as well, in the in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1940.42,"endTime":1946.12,"body":"the 70s. And I think I was just"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1946.54,"endTime":1950.08,"body":"part of that wave. I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1946.54,"endTime":1950.08,"body":"describe the life I was living"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1950.11,"endTime":1955.6,"body":"and the lives of queer people, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1950.11,"endTime":1955.6,"body":"wanted to give it the same value"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1955.6,"endTime":1961.63,"body":"and significance and visibility"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1955.6,"endTime":1961.63,"body":"that heterosexual heroines and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1961.66,"endTime":1966.07,"body":"heroes had. And it's really that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1961.66,"endTime":1966.07,"body":"simple. I was reflecting what I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1966.07,"endTime":1971.53,"body":"was living, but I was also"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1966.07,"endTime":1971.53,"body":"trying to create characters who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1971.53,"endTime":1975.1,"body":"would last and who when people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1971.53,"endTime":1975.1,"body":"read them in the future, they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1975.1,"endTime":1978.64,"body":"would say, Oh, this is what it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1975.1,"endTime":1978.64,"body":"was like to be a lesbian or gay"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":1978.64,"endTime":1981.61,"body":"man, in this time in this place."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1982.84,"endTime":1985.45,"body":"I was just curious"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1982.84,"endTime":1985.45,"body":"about the question, because I've"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1985.48,"endTime":1988.0,"body":"been asked, Why does your"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1985.48,"endTime":1988.0,"body":"character have to be gay? Well,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1988.48,"endTime":1992.56,"body":"make him straight, who you'll"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1988.48,"endTime":1992.56,"body":"sell more books. And this, I've"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1992.56,"endTime":1995.47,"body":"been asked that more than once"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1992.56,"endTime":1995.47,"body":"to tell you for sure. I was just"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1995.47,"endTime":1999.07,"body":"dumbfounded. I didn't even I,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1995.47,"endTime":1999.07,"body":"you know, it took me a few"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1999.07,"endTime":2001.86,"body":"seconds to figure out how do I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":1999.07,"endTime":2001.86,"body":"respond? Because it seems so"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2001.86,"endTime":2004.71,"body":"obvious to me. Because I'm a gay"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2001.86,"endTime":2004.71,"body":"man."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2005.34,"endTime":2008.13,"body":"You could turn"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2005.34,"endTime":2008.13,"body":"it around and say to people, why"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2008.13,"endTime":2011.52,"body":"do you always have to make your"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2008.13,"endTime":2011.52,"body":"character straight? It's boring."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2013.17,"endTime":2017.25,"body":"But that's the default. Yeah. Or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2013.17,"endTime":2017.25,"body":"it has been the default anyway."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2017.82,"endTime":2020.88,"body":"It's a default, but"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2017.82,"endTime":2020.88,"body":"it's true. It's the default for"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2020.88,"endTime":2024.99,"body":"a reason. Yeah. And I need to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2020.88,"endTime":2024.99,"body":"tell you that I consider"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2025.02,"endTime":2029.76,"body":"starting cell press in 1976. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2025.02,"endTime":2029.76,"body":"starting writing a lesbian"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2029.76,"endTime":2034.5,"body":"sleuth in the early 80s. is most"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2029.76,"endTime":2034.5,"body":"definitely trailblazing. So."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2035.1,"endTime":2036.03,"body":"Thank you. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2036.51,"endTime":2037.29,"body":"You're welcome."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2038.43,"endTime":2041.76,"body":"So since those"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2038.43,"endTime":2041.76,"body":"early days, up until today, what"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2041.76,"endTime":2044.4,"body":"changes have you seen in lesbian"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2041.76,"endTime":2044.4,"body":"fiction?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2045.51,"endTime":2049.2,"body":"Well, I'm, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2045.51,"endTime":2049.2,"body":"actually am quite interested by"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2049.77,"endTime":2053.64,"body":"this younger generation of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2049.77,"endTime":2053.64,"body":"lesbian writers. I think they're"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2053.64,"endTime":2059.25,"body":"far more comfortable, of course,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2053.64,"endTime":2059.25,"body":"making their characters lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2059.25,"endTime":2065.4,"body":"and gay. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2059.25,"endTime":2065.4,"body":"actually, its gender has really,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2065.7,"endTime":2070.2,"body":"the descriptions of gender and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2065.7,"endTime":2070.2,"body":"living gender has really"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2070.26,"endTime":2075.24,"body":"completely changed since the old"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2070.26,"endTime":2075.24,"body":"days and so that lesbians don't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2075.24,"endTime":2079.95,"body":"live in a kind of lesbian"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2075.24,"endTime":2079.95,"body":"universe. They usually live in a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2080.37,"endTime":2085.08,"body":"more mixed gender queer world,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2080.37,"endTime":2085.08,"body":"and I find that actually"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2085.08,"endTime":2088.32,"body":"fascinating, especially since"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2085.08,"endTime":2088.32,"body":"some of those novels are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2088.32,"endTime":2091.08,"body":"published by major presses. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2088.32,"endTime":2091.08,"body":"mean, that would have been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2091.08,"endTime":2098.34,"body":"impossible to have trans"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2091.08,"endTime":2098.34,"body":"characters to have asexual to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2098.34,"endTime":2104.04,"body":"have non binary to have all of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2098.34,"endTime":2104.04,"body":"those in a single book, that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2104.04,"endTime":2107.25,"body":"just wouldn't have happened. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2104.04,"endTime":2107.25,"body":"I find that really interesting"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2107.25,"endTime":2114.03,"body":"and really exciting. I, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2107.25,"endTime":2114.03,"body":"think especially I read a book"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2114.03,"endTime":2119.91,"body":"last summer that I really quite"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2114.03,"endTime":2119.91,"body":"liked by Casey Preston, I think"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2119.91,"endTime":2125.82,"body":"her name is and she was so at"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2119.91,"endTime":2125.82,"body":"ease. With her gay characters"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2125.82,"endTime":2129.84,"body":"that I, I was happy to see that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2125.82,"endTime":2129.84,"body":"I envied that, because that was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2129.84,"endTime":2131.91,"body":"impossible. You know, many years"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2129.84,"endTime":2131.91,"body":"ago."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2133.47,"endTime":2136.32,"body":"I think I've shared"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2133.47,"endTime":2136.32,"body":"on this show before, when I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2136.32,"endTime":2139.38,"body":"lived in Los Angeles, I was"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2136.32,"endTime":2139.38,"body":"asked to speak at the local Gay"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2139.38,"endTime":2142.65,"body":"Straight Alliance at the high"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2139.38,"endTime":2142.65,"body":"school. And I said, Sure. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2142.65,"endTime":2145.89,"body":"then I thought about and I was"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2142.65,"endTime":2145.89,"body":"actually in tears. Because I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2145.89,"endTime":2150.36,"body":"could not have imagined anything"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2145.89,"endTime":2150.36,"body":"like that in high school. Now,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2150.81,"endTime":2153.36,"body":"we have a long ways to go. But"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2150.81,"endTime":2153.36,"body":"boy, we sure come a long ways as"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2153.36,"endTime":2153.51,"body":"well,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2153.54,"endTime":2155.58,"body":"I think so too."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2153.54,"endTime":2155.58,"body":"And we shouldn't forget that we"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2155.58,"endTime":2157.17,"body":"should definitely celebrate"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2155.58,"endTime":2157.17,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2158.34,"endTime":2161.25,"body":"I'm gonna go back"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2158.34,"endTime":2161.25,"body":"to Cassandra, or at least the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2161.25,"endTime":2165.27,"body":"novel, The story opens regarding"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2161.25,"endTime":2165.27,"body":"the author that wrote the series"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2165.42,"endTime":2170.49,"body":"with begins, can you tell us who"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2165.42,"endTime":2170.49,"body":"they were and how they're"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2170.49,"endTime":2174.33,"body":"different than nuts. Because"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2170.49,"endTime":2174.33,"body":"I've heard of them, but I didn't"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2174.33,"endTime":2176.64,"body":"know that much. And so I had to"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2174.33,"endTime":2176.64,"body":"look a little bit into it, I'd"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2176.64,"endTime":2177.27,"body":"like you to share."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2178.38,"endTime":2180.27,"body":"I've been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2178.38,"endTime":2180.27,"body":"interested in the begins for"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2180.27,"endTime":2185.07,"body":"quite a while they were lay"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2180.27,"endTime":2185.07,"body":"order. So they didn't take"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2185.55,"endTime":2190.98,"body":"religious vows, per se. So they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2185.55,"endTime":2190.98,"body":"were not like Benedictines are"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2190.98,"endTime":2195.45,"body":"something else. But they began"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2190.98,"endTime":2195.45,"body":"to be more and more visible and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2195.87,"endTime":2201.72,"body":"to attract more and more members"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2195.87,"endTime":2201.72,"body":"to their convents in the 1200s,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2201.75,"endTime":2206.91,"body":"I think in the low countries,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2201.75,"endTime":2206.91,"body":"and Belgium and Holland, but"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2206.91,"endTime":2210.27,"body":"also in Spain, in Germany, there"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2206.91,"endTime":2210.27,"body":"were beginning groups. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2210.27,"endTime":2213.78,"body":"think part of the reason they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2210.27,"endTime":2213.78,"body":"were so popular is one, you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2213.78,"endTime":2217.77,"body":"didn't have to pay a dowry to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2213.78,"endTime":2217.77,"body":"enter the convent. So you didn't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2217.77,"endTime":2220.44,"body":"have to come from a wealthy"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2217.77,"endTime":2220.44,"body":"family, you could come from any"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2220.44,"endTime":2224.22,"body":"background. And the other is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2220.44,"endTime":2224.22,"body":"that there was a lot of freedom"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2224.22,"endTime":2227.76,"body":"within these baby doshas, as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2224.22,"endTime":2227.76,"body":"they called them, these these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2227.76,"endTime":2231.06,"body":"convents for their lay women,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2227.76,"endTime":2231.06,"body":"and that you could stay for a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2231.06,"endTime":2235.05,"body":"while, and then you could leave"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2231.06,"endTime":2235.05,"body":"again. So maybe you could get"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2235.05,"endTime":2239.4,"body":"educated, you could develop some"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2235.05,"endTime":2239.4,"body":"skills as a weaver, because they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2239.4,"endTime":2242.19,"body":"often worked in textiles, but"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2239.4,"endTime":2242.19,"body":"then you could go home to your"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2242.19,"endTime":2244.59,"body":"family, or you could get"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2242.19,"endTime":2244.59,"body":"married, you could even have a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2244.59,"endTime":2247.83,"body":"child, and then you could come"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2244.59,"endTime":2247.83,"body":"back, but they were self"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2247.83,"endTime":2252.15,"body":"sustaining. They work they some"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2247.83,"endTime":2252.15,"body":"were well off, they were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2252.15,"endTime":2254.67,"body":"merchants and they had their own"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2252.15,"endTime":2254.67,"body":"houses, others lived in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2254.67,"endTime":2258.51,"body":"dormitories, or rented a room."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2254.67,"endTime":2258.51,"body":"And there were hundreds and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2258.51,"endTime":2264.39,"body":"1000s of women who live like"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2258.51,"endTime":2264.39,"body":"this, they were safe. Within"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2264.39,"endTime":2268.17,"body":"this structure, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2264.39,"endTime":2268.17,"body":"doors closed at night. So they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2268.17,"endTime":2271.89,"body":"were not subject to harassment,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2268.17,"endTime":2271.89,"body":"they didn't have to get married."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2272.76,"endTime":2278.7,"body":"They could illuminate"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2272.76,"endTime":2278.7,"body":"manuscripts, they could sing, a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2278.73,"endTime":2283.05,"body":"compose music, they wrote"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2278.73,"endTime":2283.05,"body":"poetry. I was really fascinated"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2283.05,"endTime":2288.9,"body":"because there's never been until"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2283.05,"endTime":2288.9,"body":"recently much study about these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2288.93,"endTime":2292.86,"body":"women. And they had a lot of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2288.93,"endTime":2292.86,"body":"freedom and autonomy at a time"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2292.86,"endTime":2297.51,"body":"when you just don't think in the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2292.86,"endTime":2297.51,"body":"Middle Ages of women being free."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2297.96,"endTime":2303.21,"body":"So I had gotten interested in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2297.96,"endTime":2303.21,"body":"them way back when I visited"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2303.21,"endTime":2305.73,"body":"some of the begun arches. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2303.21,"endTime":2305.73,"body":"I'd always thought to myself,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2305.73,"endTime":2309.18,"body":"Oh, I'd like to write something"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2305.73,"endTime":2309.18,"body":"about them someday. So I sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2309.18,"endTime":2312.36,"body":"invented this series of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2309.18,"endTime":2312.36,"body":"historical mysteries that were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2312.36,"endTime":2317.19,"body":"set in the baby nauseous. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2312.36,"endTime":2317.19,"body":"also made it a TV show that was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2317.19,"endTime":2323.64,"body":"very well known on the BBC, or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2317.19,"endTime":2323.64,"body":"ITV I guess, in England, and I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2323.64,"endTime":2328.56,"body":"had duty, Judi Dench playing a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2323.64,"endTime":2328.56,"body":"role in the TV series. So I have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2328.56,"endTime":2331.71,"body":"a lot of fun with that. Just"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2328.56,"endTime":2331.71,"body":"imagining what it would have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2331.71,"endTime":2336.42,"body":"been like if instead of were"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2331.71,"endTime":2336.42,"body":"along with CAD file, we had seen"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2336.45,"endTime":2341.19,"body":"a whole series about women who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2336.45,"endTime":2341.19,"body":"solve murders within the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2341.19,"endTime":2342.93,"body":"confines of the vaginas,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2344.04,"endTime":2346.83,"body":"but really shows in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2344.04,"endTime":2346.83,"body":"the novel that you have passion"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2346.83,"endTime":2350.52,"body":"or an interest in it. Without"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2346.83,"endTime":2350.52,"body":"feeling like I was being"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2350.52,"endTime":2354.69,"body":"lectured. I learned a lot. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2350.52,"endTime":2354.69,"body":"that's hard to do sometimes. So"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2354.84,"endTime":2355.8,"body":"you did very well with"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2355.98,"endTime":2359.67,"body":"Thank you. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2355.98,"endTime":2359.67,"body":"I learned a lot too. And it kind"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2359.67,"endTime":2363.09,"body":"of plays into some of the themes"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2359.67,"endTime":2363.09,"body":"of the novel, which is about"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2363.81,"endTime":2369.24,"body":"groups of women and ways that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2363.81,"endTime":2369.24,"body":"it's both safe to be in a group"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2369.27,"endTime":2374.22,"body":"of women and it's also full of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2369.27,"endTime":2374.22,"body":"conflict. And of course, it's a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2374.22,"endTime":2378.69,"body":"mystery, you know, it has to be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2374.22,"endTime":2378.69,"body":"full of conflict. So somehow the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2378.69,"endTime":2382.71,"body":"metaphor of the baggy knowledge"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2378.69,"endTime":2382.71,"body":"and the lesbian feminist kind of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2382.74,"endTime":2386.82,"body":"circle of the past in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2382.74,"endTime":2386.82,"body":"particular, work together."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2387.84,"endTime":2390.0,"body":"One thing that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2387.84,"endTime":2390.0,"body":"really jumped out at me it was a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2390.0,"endTime":2392.04,"body":"sentence in the novel. It's"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2390.0,"endTime":2392.04,"body":"actually right near the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2392.04,"endTime":2396.9,"body":"beginning. Avery Armstrong,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2392.04,"endTime":2396.9,"body":"Cassandra is either describing"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2396.9,"endTime":2401.1,"body":"her or Avery is describing one"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2396.9,"endTime":2401.1,"body":"of the other The discussion was"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2401.1,"endTime":2405.27,"body":"basically that Avery had it"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2401.1,"endTime":2405.27,"body":"better than Cassandra. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2405.27,"endTime":2412.62,"body":"Cassandra said, Not allowed. I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2405.27,"endTime":2412.62,"body":"had something Avery didn't. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2412.62,"endTime":2416.4,"body":"that was freedom. Is that how"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2412.62,"endTime":2416.4,"body":"you feel?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2417.84,"endTime":2420.51,"body":"Think so, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2417.84,"endTime":2420.51,"body":"mean, I have always been really"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2420.51,"endTime":2425.04,"body":"interested in money. Partly"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2420.51,"endTime":2425.04,"body":"because I almost never have had"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2425.04,"endTime":2428.85,"body":"any. And I do feel a sense of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2425.04,"endTime":2428.85,"body":"financial insecurity, having"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2428.85,"endTime":2432.6,"body":"lived the kind of life I have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2428.85,"endTime":2432.6,"body":"with a lot of travel a lot of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2432.6,"endTime":2437.13,"body":"interesting things and writing a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2432.6,"endTime":2437.13,"body":"lot, but not always getting paid"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2437.13,"endTime":2441.57,"body":"very well for, for my writing,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2437.13,"endTime":2441.57,"body":"that's explored quite a lot in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2441.57,"endTime":2445.5,"body":"the novel. And I think one thing"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2441.57,"endTime":2445.5,"body":"Cassandra and I have in common"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2445.71,"endTime":2448.5,"body":"is the sense of being"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2445.71,"endTime":2448.5,"body":"freelancers and being"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2448.5,"endTime":2453.33,"body":"financially insecure. And so she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2448.5,"endTime":2453.33,"body":"looks at life through that lens."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2454.2,"endTime":2457.89,"body":"But she's made all these"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2454.2,"endTime":2457.89,"body":"choices. She doesn't, has never"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2457.89,"endTime":2462.39,"body":"wanted a kind of full time job,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2457.89,"endTime":2462.39,"body":"she's content to kind of hustle"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2462.6,"endTime":2467.82,"body":"for work. As a translator, she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2462.6,"endTime":2467.82,"body":"feels like she's okay. But she"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2467.82,"endTime":2472.83,"body":"doesn't ever she's never had a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2467.82,"endTime":2472.83,"body":"house. She's never had a car. So"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2472.86,"endTime":2477.75,"body":"in this scene, she's sort of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2472.86,"endTime":2477.75,"body":"looking at Avery and thinking,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2477.9,"endTime":2481.53,"body":"Yes, but I'd rather have my"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2477.9,"endTime":2481.53,"body":"life. Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2482.52,"endTime":2485.34,"body":"Other than travel,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2482.52,"endTime":2485.34,"body":"what other types of freedom do"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2485.34,"endTime":2489.57,"body":"you think you've had being a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2485.34,"endTime":2489.57,"body":"writer and a translator? Well, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2489.57,"endTime":2492.63,"body":"think when you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2489.57,"endTime":2492.63,"body":"work in, in the world of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2492.63,"endTime":2497.13,"body":"literature, you have to be a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2492.63,"endTime":2497.13,"body":"little bit of a Jack or Jill of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2497.13,"endTime":2502.53,"body":"all trades. And so, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2497.13,"endTime":2502.53,"body":"was never trained to be a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2502.56,"endTime":2506.97,"body":"translator, or a publisher, or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2502.56,"endTime":2506.97,"body":"an editor or writer for that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2506.97,"endTime":2512.19,"body":"matter. In any of my college"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2506.97,"endTime":2512.19,"body":"classes, like I've got a general"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2512.19,"endTime":2517.26,"body":"sense of the world. And my"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2512.19,"endTime":2517.26,"body":"travels, kind of continued to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2517.35,"endTime":2521.58,"body":"bring me in contact with lots of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2517.35,"endTime":2521.58,"body":"interesting people. And I always"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2521.58,"endTime":2524.55,"body":"read a lot of books, but a lot"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2521.58,"endTime":2524.55,"body":"of things I had to learn on my"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2524.55,"endTime":2530.04,"body":"own how to do them. And it gave"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2524.55,"endTime":2530.04,"body":"me a sense of confidence, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2530.04,"endTime":2533.16,"body":"freedom to know that there was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2530.04,"endTime":2533.16,"body":"always something that I could"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2533.16,"endTime":2537.63,"body":"do. I could teach, I could edit"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2533.16,"endTime":2537.63,"body":"other people's manuscripts I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2537.63,"endTime":2540.66,"body":"could translate my knowledge of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2537.63,"endTime":2540.66,"body":"publishing has always been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2540.66,"endTime":2544.41,"body":"really helpful to me, both when"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2540.66,"endTime":2544.41,"body":"I was a publisher, but also"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2544.41,"endTime":2548.58,"body":"afterwards when I was a writer,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2544.41,"endTime":2548.58,"body":"in terms of contracts and, and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2548.58,"endTime":2552.6,"body":"just even knowing how to self"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2548.58,"endTime":2552.6,"body":"publish books. I've been able to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2552.6,"endTime":2560.01,"body":"do that. So yeah, I think in"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2552.6,"endTime":2560.01,"body":"spite of sometimes, wishing that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2560.01,"endTime":2565.35,"body":"I made more money, of course, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2560.01,"endTime":2565.35,"body":"have really enjoyed that. I have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2565.35,"endTime":2570.69,"body":"never really had a full time job"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2565.35,"endTime":2570.69,"body":"in my life. I have worked part"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2570.69,"endTime":2574.95,"body":"time jobs. And I worked at"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2570.69,"endTime":2574.95,"body":"everything hard. But I've been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2574.95,"endTime":2581.04,"body":"free to travel, to just say yes"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2574.95,"endTime":2581.04,"body":"to things to move to different"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2581.04,"endTime":2584.67,"body":"places if I wanted. You know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2581.04,"endTime":2584.67,"body":"there was a time in Seattle,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2584.67,"endTime":2587.52,"body":"when I just moved to England,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2584.67,"endTime":2587.52,"body":"there was another time when I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2587.52,"endTime":2591.96,"body":"moved to Oakland for two years."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2587.52,"endTime":2591.96,"body":"I now live in Port Townsend. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2591.96,"endTime":2595.08,"body":"I've been able to do all that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2591.96,"endTime":2595.08,"body":"somehow or other through making"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2595.08,"endTime":2597.48,"body":"a living at what I love, which"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2595.08,"endTime":2597.48,"body":"is literature."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2598.08,"endTime":2600.84,"body":"And you've done"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2598.08,"endTime":2600.84,"body":"things that other people can"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2600.87,"endTime":2604.2,"body":"only dream of, in fact, I'm"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2600.87,"endTime":2604.2,"body":"sitting here, you know, I had"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2604.2,"endTime":2607.89,"body":"those opportunities to write she"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2604.2,"endTime":2607.89,"body":"said, This sounds wonderful. Why"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2607.89,"endTime":2612.84,"body":"did I do? Something else"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2607.89,"endTime":2612.84,"body":"happened to you that other"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2612.84,"endTime":2617.46,"body":"writers dream of your novel,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2612.84,"endTime":2617.46,"body":"Gaudi Afternoon, which I love"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2617.46,"endTime":2621.39,"body":"the title, though it came to the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2617.46,"endTime":2621.39,"body":"big screen. It was released in"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2621.39,"endTime":2625.62,"body":"2001. I believe it is. Yes. How"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2621.39,"endTime":2625.62,"body":"do you feel when you got that"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2625.62,"endTime":2626.19,"body":"phone call?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2626.99,"endTime":2629.9,"body":"Well, you know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2626.99,"endTime":2629.9,"body":"I never really thought it would"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2629.9,"endTime":2633.23,"body":"happen. To tell you the truth. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2629.9,"endTime":2633.23,"body":"think it took about 10 years."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2633.8,"endTime":2638.33,"body":"And I think when I got the first"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2633.8,"endTime":2638.33,"body":"phone call, it was someone at"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2638.33,"endTime":2641.24,"body":"sale press. I was at home and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2638.33,"endTime":2641.24,"body":"someone had cell press had given"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2641.24,"endTime":2644.99,"body":"this guy, my home number. So he"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2641.24,"endTime":2644.99,"body":"called me and I was washing the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2644.99,"endTime":2649.4,"body":"dishes. And he said I read your"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2644.99,"endTime":2649.4,"body":"book Gaidi Afternoon  I would"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2649.4,"endTime":2652.64,"body":"love to you know, write a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2649.4,"endTime":2652.64,"body":"screenplay and see if I could"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2652.64,"endTime":2657.38,"body":"get it published. And he had"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2652.64,"endTime":2657.38,"body":"actually no qualifications. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2657.41,"endTime":2661.16,"body":"he was a big dreamer. He later"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2657.41,"endTime":2661.16,"body":"became a great friend of mine,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2661.19,"endTime":2665.9,"body":"James  was his name. You know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2661.19,"endTime":2665.9,"body":"he I think he optioned it first."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2665.9,"endTime":2670.1,"body":"I said, Well, fine, why not? But"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2665.9,"endTime":2670.1,"body":"it seems so unlikely that a book"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2670.1,"endTime":2673.88,"body":"like that would be ever made"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2670.1,"endTime":2673.88,"body":"into a movie. And he would"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2673.88,"endTime":2678.11,"body":"surface you know, every year or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2673.88,"endTime":2678.11,"body":"two and say, Oh, I've made"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2678.11,"endTime":2682.43,"body":"contact with so and so or"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2678.11,"endTime":2682.43,"body":"someone's interested or Now"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2682.43,"endTime":2685.76,"body":"Susan Seidelman was interested"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2682.43,"endTime":2685.76,"body":"in becoming the director, but we"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2685.76,"endTime":2687.74,"body":"need to have some people"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2685.76,"endTime":2687.74,"body":"attached and we're thinking"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.12,"body":"about Helen Mirren. And I would"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.12,"body":"just think to myself, Helen"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2692.12,"endTime":2696.65,"body":"Mirren, are you nuts? This is"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2692.12,"endTime":2696.65,"body":"never going to happen. But it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2696.65,"endTime":2702.41,"body":"did happen. They found a Spanish"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2696.65,"endTime":2702.41,"body":"producer And they got Judy Davis"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2702.44,"endTime":2707.72,"body":"attached. And Marcia Gay Harden"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2702.44,"endTime":2707.72,"body":"and Julia Louis, and Lily"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2707.72,"endTime":2711.68,"body":"Taylor. And they did make a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2707.72,"endTime":2711.68,"body":"movie. So it was quite an"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2711.77,"endTime":2714.8,"body":"interesting event. I did go to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2711.77,"endTime":2714.8,"body":"Barcelona, and I saw them"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2714.8,"endTime":2718.28,"body":"filming it for a few days. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2714.8,"endTime":2718.28,"body":"that was totally fun. And that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2718.28,"endTime":2724.25,"body":"was really fun. And I did see it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2718.28,"endTime":2724.25,"body":"before I came out. I was I had"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2724.25,"endTime":2727.13,"body":"not participated in the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2724.25,"endTime":2727.13,"body":"screenplay at all, I think I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2727.13,"endTime":2731.24,"body":"read one version and thought it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2727.13,"endTime":2731.24,"body":"was really horrible. And so I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2731.27,"endTime":2734.63,"body":"just said, I'm not getting"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2731.27,"endTime":2734.63,"body":"involved in this. And it didn't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2734.63,"endTime":2739.19,"body":"come out as I would have wished"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2734.63,"endTime":2739.19,"body":"I didn't actually like all of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2739.19,"endTime":2743.39,"body":"the scripts, or well, I like the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2739.19,"endTime":2743.39,"body":"language that they took directly"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2743.39,"endTime":2746.6,"body":"from my book. But some of the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2743.39,"endTime":2746.6,"body":"other things were problem. And"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2746.6,"endTime":2749.93,"body":"they had decided early on, they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2746.6,"endTime":2749.93,"body":"didn't want to make Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2749.93,"endTime":2754.76,"body":"lesbian, because they felt that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2749.93,"endTime":2754.76,"body":"would make it too difficult to"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2755.42,"endTime":2758.21,"body":"draw the actors they wanted and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2755.42,"endTime":2758.21,"body":"get an audience. And of course,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2758.21,"endTime":2761.06,"body":"by the time it finally came out,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2758.21,"endTime":2761.06,"body":"10 years later, they could have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2761.09,"endTime":2765.2,"body":"just as well have made Cassandra"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2761.09,"endTime":2765.2,"body":"lesbian because some of that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2765.2,"endTime":2768.02,"body":"homophobia was gone by that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2765.2,"endTime":2768.02,"body":"time, and then it would have"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2768.02,"endTime":2772.1,"body":"been regarded as a really great"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2768.02,"endTime":2772.1,"body":"lesbian film, whereas in fact,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2772.31,"endTime":2775.97,"body":"she's a little bit ambivalent. I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2772.31,"endTime":2775.97,"body":"think she kisses someone at the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2775.97,"endTime":2776.63,"body":"end, but that's"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2776.649,"endTime":2780.609,"body":"about it. That must"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2776.649,"endTime":2780.609,"body":"have been disappointing."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2780.7,"endTime":2783.85,"body":"It was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2780.7,"endTime":2783.85,"body":"disappointing. Yeah. And, you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2783.85,"endTime":2786.76,"body":"know, I also was very"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2783.85,"endTime":2786.76,"body":"disappointed with how they dress"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2786.76,"endTime":2789.58,"body":"because Sandra more than"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2786.76,"endTime":2789.58,"body":"anything, she wore this shabby"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2789.58,"endTime":2793.84,"body":"green coat throughout a lot of"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2789.58,"endTime":2793.84,"body":"it. She also smoke cigarettes,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2793.84,"endTime":2798.58,"body":"which I thought was awful."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2793.84,"endTime":2798.58,"body":"Sandra doesn't smoke, and she's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2798.61,"endTime":2802.36,"body":"a little bit more. I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2798.61,"endTime":2802.36,"body":"she's more Butch than that."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2803.05,"endTime":2804.76,"body":"It's interesting."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2803.05,"endTime":2804.76,"body":"They chose to have her smoke."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2804.76,"endTime":2807.28,"body":"That's I wonder what the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2804.76,"endTime":2807.28,"body":"reasoning would be for that. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2807.28,"endTime":2812.47,"body":"the cast. It was a great cast."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2807.28,"endTime":2812.47,"body":"Judy Davis played Cassandra and"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2812.47,"endTime":2816.04,"body":"I'm curious. Richard Stevenson"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2812.47,"endTime":2816.04,"body":"said he would never have chose"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2816.07,"endTime":2819.91,"body":"Chad Allen to be Donald stretchy"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2816.07,"endTime":2819.91,"body":"when the movies were made. But"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2819.91,"endTime":2823.84,"body":"he was quite pleased in the end."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2819.91,"endTime":2823.84,"body":"How did you feel about Judy"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2823.84,"endTime":2827.71,"body":"Davis? Being cast? And would you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2823.84,"endTime":2827.71,"body":"have chose someone else?"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2829.79,"endTime":2834.32,"body":"Well, Judy Davis"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2829.79,"endTime":2834.32,"body":"is really an icon. And I had"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2834.32,"endTime":2838.1,"body":"always liked her movies. So I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2834.32,"endTime":2838.1,"body":"was thrilled. She's a tough"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2838.16,"endTime":2842.36,"body":"cookie. When I met her. I could"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2838.16,"endTime":2842.36,"body":"see that she's got a real edge"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2842.36,"endTime":2845.9,"body":"to her. And apparently she and"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2842.36,"endTime":2845.9,"body":"Marcia Gay Harden didn't get on"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2845.9,"endTime":2851.3,"body":"at all. I mean, I think that was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2845.9,"endTime":2851.3,"body":"all Judy's fault. Probably. But"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2851.3,"endTime":2855.11,"body":"Susan Seidelman Like that they"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2851.3,"endTime":2855.11,"body":"didn't quite get on together"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2855.11,"endTime":2859.94,"body":"since there was conflict between"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2855.11,"endTime":2859.94,"body":"them in the story. I don't know."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2860.03,"endTime":2863.51,"body":"I mean, I, again, I thought it"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2860.03,"endTime":2863.51,"body":"would never be made. So I didn't"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2863.51,"endTime":2867.56,"body":"spend my idle hours thinking,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2863.51,"endTime":2867.56,"body":"Oh, maybe so and so it'd be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2867.56,"endTime":2873.53,"body":"great to her. But I would"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2867.56,"endTime":2873.53,"body":"probably like someone maybe a"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2873.53,"endTime":2877.91,"body":"little bit younger than she was."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2873.53,"endTime":2877.91,"body":"She was kind of the same age as"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2877.91,"endTime":2882.71,"body":"Cassandra, I suppose. But it was"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2877.91,"endTime":2882.71,"body":"just a different vibe. You know,"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2882.71,"endTime":2887.0,"body":"Cassandra is Butch. She's been"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2882.71,"endTime":2887.0,"body":"around the world. She's she's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2887.0,"endTime":2891.05,"body":"very easygoing, in lots of ways."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2887.0,"endTime":2891.05,"body":"She's not actually that edgy at"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2891.05,"endTime":2895.85,"body":"all. She's curious. She's"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2891.05,"endTime":2895.85,"body":"observant, and she's got a wry"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2895.85,"endTime":2900.62,"body":"sense of humor. So any actor who"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2895.85,"endTime":2900.62,"body":"could have captured that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2900.65,"endTime":2904.25,"body":"probably would have been a good"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2900.65,"endTime":2904.25,"body":"one for me. I mean, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2904.25,"endTime":2907.16,"body":"sorry. I learned a lot. And I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2904.25,"endTime":2907.16,"body":"thought it was a very"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2907.16,"endTime":2910.19,"body":"fascinating experience to be"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2907.16,"endTime":2910.19,"body":"part of. But the book and the"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2910.19,"endTime":2911.24,"body":"film are quite different."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2912.34,"endTime":2915.4,"body":"I would never"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2912.34,"endTime":2915.4,"body":"describe her as edgy. Because I"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2915.4,"endTime":2919.99,"body":"know. So before I let you go, it"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2915.4,"endTime":2919.99,"body":"is time for awkward questions"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2919.99,"endTime":2922.54,"body":"authors get done. If you"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2919.99,"endTime":2922.54,"body":"remember from the first time"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2922.54,"endTime":2927.04,"body":"you're on the show, I spin the"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2922.54,"endTime":2927.04,"body":"wheel and we get a question. And"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2927.04,"endTime":2930.49,"body":"it's a question that sometimes"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2927.04,"endTime":2930.49,"body":"we're asked that are awkward, or"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2934.21,"body":"we're not sure how to answer and"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2934.21,"body":"sometimes are downright rude. So"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2934.21,"endTime":2938.89,"body":"are you ready? I'm ready. All"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2934.21,"endTime":2938.89,"body":"right. Let's spin the wheel."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2944.02,"endTime":2947.29,"body":"Okay, this is one of my"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2944.02,"endTime":2947.29,"body":"favorites. Why not write"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2947.29,"endTime":2949.06,"body":"erotica? That's where the money"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2947.29,"endTime":2949.06,"body":"is."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2953.23,"endTime":2955.51,"body":"Is it Is that"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2953.23,"endTime":2955.51,"body":"where the money is? Well, I"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2955.51,"endTime":2958.6,"body":"guess I'll reconsider, then"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2955.51,"endTime":2958.6,"body":"maybe I will write erotica."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2961.33,"body":"I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2961.33,"body":"that's where the money is. You"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2961.33,"endTime":2965.47,"body":"certainly see a lot of them on"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2961.33,"endTime":2965.47,"body":"Amazon but they all tend to be a"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2965.47,"endTime":2972.31,"body":"lot more 99 cents. Barbara has"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2965.47,"endTime":2972.31,"body":"been delightful to have you back"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2972.31,"endTime":2976.45,"body":"on. And again, it's Love Dies"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2972.31,"endTime":2976.45,"body":"Twice and it's available in May,"},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2976.45,"endTime":2979.75,"body":"but you can preorder it now."},{"speaker":"Brad Shreve","startTime":2976.45,"endTime":2979.75,"body":"Thank you, Barbara."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2979.78,"endTime":2981.73,"body":"Thank you, Brad."},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2979.78,"endTime":2981.73,"body":"It's been great talking to you"},{"speaker":"Barbara Wilson","startTime":2981.73,"endTime":2982.57,"body":"again too."}]}