Talking Family-Controlled Trafficking with the Hosts of The Ugly Truth About the Girl Next Door podcast

Family-controlled sex trafficking survivor Kait Gannon and licensed clinical social worker Laurie Krull started a podcast together as a last-ditch effort to keep Kait safe. They also sounded an alarm about offenders living in their region of western New York. Kait and Laurie's unique journey from patient and therapist to hosts of the groundbreaking podcast The Ugly Truth About the Girl Next Door is the story of two women determined to bring about change against all odds.

Find The Ugly Truth About the Girl Next Door website and podcast.

Mezzo Allies, Inc.

Polaris Project

Dr. Michael Salter 

CHILD USAdvocacy 

Massachusetts Citizens for Children 

Find the Truth & Consequences website, Facebook page, Instagram & Twitter accounts. Find the Second Wound website, Facebook page, Instagram & Twitter accounts. Learn about personal coaching with host Miranda Pacchiana, MSW on the Second Wound website coaching page.

Transcript

Laurie Krull & Kait Gannon Transcript

Miranda: Hi Everyone, It’s me Miranda and today I am thrilled to be back in my podcast booth! I took some time away to focus on other aspects of my life and work. And I needed to take from the podcast for a while so I did. Now I’m back and re-energized to bring you conversations with some great people. 

And more great news, my dear friend attorney and advocate Kathryn Robb is kindly joining me for most of the episodes, adding her original take and asking insightful questions as always. 

I’m itching to let you hear today’s discussion with podcast hosts Kait Gannon and Laurie Krull, two of my personal heroes. They have a phenomenal story to tell you, and the truths they brought to share about familial child trafficking will open your eyes to a problem we all need to know about that is happening right in our communities. It’ s a tough story but that is modulated by how likable Kait and Laurie are, and I just know you’re going to appreciate these two fierce women like I do. 

And now, a couple of quick notes I want to mention before we begin. Kait and Laurie had an unconventional start to their work as advocates and podcasters, which starts with the way they came together. Kait is a trafficking survivor who sought out Laurie, a licensed social worker, for therapy. As they will explain in the episode, when they realized they had hit a dead end in their efforts to keep Kait safe, and alert others about the perpetrators in their midst, they made a decision to break through these barriers by starting a podcast and speaking up that way. After that, they transitioned out of the therapist/patient relationship and into one of colleagues and friends.  As I said, it’s an unconventional path and it was a decision that may have saved Kait’s life.   

Also, you will hear the term FOIL, which stands for Freedom of Information Law. FOIL is New York State’s version of the freedom of information act or FOIA. which grants the public the right to request records maintained by government agencies, with some limitations. 

And finally, Kait used the term Romeo Pimps, which I had to look up. The Polaris Project says that a Romeo pimp lures vulnerable individuals into commercial sex by luring them into romantic relationships.  And I will include links to The Polaris Project, Dr. Michael Salter, and Kait and Laurie’s podcast and websites in the show notes. 

One last thing. If you find the podcast valuable and can show your support, I would be very grateful if you’d make a small donation to help defray my operating costs. Just press that donate button on the Truth and Consequences website or use my Venmo or Paypal handle in the show notes. Thank you so much in advance for your support and generosity. Now let’s get started! 

Hello and welcome to Truth & Consequences, a podcast about trauma and its aftermath. We talk about what happens, what hurts, and what helps us heal. 

I’m your host, Miranda Pacchiana. I am a writer and personal coach with a Masters in Social Work and the creator of the website and online platform, The Second Wound. 

I am joined by my sometime co-host and friend, Kathryn Robb. Kathryn is an attorney, writer, survivor, and the Executive Director of CHILD USAdvocacy which fights for legislation to protect children and prevent child abuse and neglect. 

My guests today are Kait Gannon and Laurie Krull, hosts of the groundbreaking and vitally important podcast, The Ugly Truth About the Girl Next Door. 

Laurie Krull is a licensed clinical social worker. She has over 30 years of experience helping individuals and families, with special training in trauma interventions. Laurie is a wife and mother of three adult children, as well as Silas the therapy dog and podcast mascot. 

Kait Gannon is a wife and mother of three, a medical social worker, and a survivor of human trafficking from as far back as she can remember. Kait writes on the podcast website that from the time she was a young child, her parents sold her to men who used and hurt her in terrible ways. Men from all walks of life, including and especially family friends, acquaintances, and pastors in the church that was a focal point of their lives. 

Kait describes how she grew up in two separate, compartmentalized worlds, a dark world and a bright world, “one world where men used and abused me. Another as a normal kid.” To survive and cope, Kait put her two worlds into boxes that each stayed sealed while she lived in the other. Except when the boxes cracked open a bit and she tried to tell and get help. Tragically, no one succeeded in saving her. 

Kait writes “School teachers, church leaders, and many more people throughout my life tried to help….but each and every time, the lies from my abusers were too strong. The systems failed and I was left to deal with the fallout. When your parents are the ones that are trafficking you….where do you turn for help and protection?

Telling my story now is yet another escape attempt in a way. After decades of abuse and threats, it is well past time for it to end…” 

Kate and Laurie, your podcast and friendship have such an unusual origin story. I just want to let you tell us how you began working together and came to start your groundbreaking podcast.

Kait & Laurie: Okay, I'm Kate and as you said, I'm a survivor of family-controlled human trafficking and organized sexual abuse. I lived very much in the bright world, dark world, split reality, all the way into adulthood, really. I got married. I had two boys and I was living only in my bright world for a really long time.

It was 'The bad things that are still happening in my adult life are over there. And my bright world is over here and the two can never meet or connect or anything. It must stay separate.' It is truly the only way that I survived. But then in 2016, I had a daughter. And I will never forget, I was actually just talking to my husband about my daughter Evelyn's birth this morning and how I will never forget sitting in the hospital and it was like everything in my brain just started to collide.

Like I'm looking at this precious baby girl going, 'I know that I can't keep myself safe. How am I going to keep her safe?' Even though I felt at that moment that I had to do something, it still took just over a year for me to truly have the courage to reach out for help. I actually made and canceled probably ten--I didn't even cancel--I made and no-showed probably like ten therapy appointments with different therapists because... 

Miranda: Understandable

Kait & Laurie: making the appointment and then panicking and like 'I can't do it. I can't do it. I shouldn't do this. I'm just gonna move forward and pretend that this isn't happening and I will figure out how to protect Evelyn'. And then I had gotten to a point where I wasn't sleeping, I was barely eating, I wasn't a good mom, I was not functional. I was in a very unhealthy way, I was high-strung, but but not sleeping and not eating and really, not functioning. And I finally said, okay, I have to do this. And I picked Laurie because, a friend of mine whose son had been in one of Laurie's like teenage group therapy things. That's probably not the right words for that, but. 

Teen therapy things, whatever. Yeah, my friend said that she really liked Laurie and she's one of those friends who, she's so specific in particular about doctors who she chooses. She doesn't just pick people out of a phone book. And so I thought, 'okay if this friend of mine feels okay sending her kid to see Laurie, then like this is probably an okay thing.' So I did, I made an appointment. I actually did show up. And I came in very much like 'I'm fine. I'm like 110% fine. Like I have to plan a birthday party this weekend. And just so you know, I'm like a hundred percent organized and like all the things. And also I'm not sleeping or eating and I like also can't function. Can you help me?' Which I think is a lot of times how it starts. 

Always How it starts. Yeah. So nobody comes in and just dumps the whole thing. 

Yeah. But over the course of really the first two years, I did start to unpack the boxes. I did start to, every time we unpacked a box, 10 more boxes would open. And I had to face the reality of what had happened and what was still happening and so very slowly I started telling Laurie, 'These things are still happening and there are still being threats that are being left at my house. There's people that are stalking me. ' And it became really evidence to Laurie that I was not safe at all. So that led us to the long journey of, 'Okay, who do we contact? Is there law enforcement? Is there anti trafficking organizations? Who can help us?' We went down every single avenue.

We went down every single avenue and just hit roadblock after roadblock. It was like every time I would try to tell the extent of what had happened and what was happening, people couldn't hold it.

They looked at us like we have five heads. Anti-trafficking organizations would say things like, 'Does she need to go into a shelter?' And it was like no, I have a home. I have a husband. But, there just wasn't resources available for someone like me. And the law enforcement agency that we were working with was not really doing anything. And so in that moment we decided together, I decided that we had to do something, right? And maybe if we, if I tell my story for the world to hear, then the offenders, my family, my parents will know that I am no longer keeping their secret.

I'm no longer staying silent, right? They thrive in the silence. And so we will say these things and we will tell the truth and it will put them on notice that they cannot just do whatever they want. They cannot disappear me from the earth, which is what they had threatened and nobody will know. It also... 

Miranda: it was your last resort. 

Kait & Laurie: We say all the time, it was an act of desperation. It also, truthfully, this is a little bit hard to say, but to me, it felt 'You know what? If the worst case scenario happens and they do disappear me from the earth or something awful, at least my story and why this happened will be in my own voice, in my own words. And nobody will be able to refute that, right? Because I will have said it. I will have said the truth. I will have told the truth. And nobody will be able to refute that.' But we also never imagined what would happen next, it really was just, an act of desperation with really not a lot of options 

So on the social work side, and people have expressed, curiosity about the journey from clinician to podcast co-host, clinician to co-founder of Mezzo Allies. I understand that, right? It's not a typical trajectory, and it's not something that I would recommend for anyone. It's not something that we ever took lightly. There was a lot of conversation that went into the shift in our relationship. But truly, as a social worker out here in the world who I have worked with the vulnerable my entire 35-year career and have certainly lived in the space of okay, justice is, I don't know. There, there are all kinds of ways of finding justice, but often there is not a tidy path where it all gets wrapped up in a nice neat bow. 

Miranda: That's for sure. 

Kait & Laurie: The fact that Kait continued to be unsafe in present day and that every system that we approached for help, support, intervention was a dead end, followed by someone in the church who stood up in front of thousands of people and said how grateful he was to be in relationship with Kait's parents who he knew were accused of trafficking her, which was essentially a green light for every offender to say, nobody cares. 

Kathryn: Yes. 

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. And so weeks later we came to the place of saying 'I guess a podcast is what we're left with. And so a podcast is what it shall be.' And what Kait said is true. When we started, we had absolutely no idea the groundswell that was going to emerge from what started as, two people on a couch with a microphone propped on a pillow, having no idea what we were doing or how to do it.

And people, if you go back and listen to the early podcast episodes, we are really not very clear about all the details of it because we are dipping our toe in that water. But to be where we are now, where we are having opportunities like this and like others to share the reality of Kate's experience and the fact that it is not Kate alone that has experienced this, the statistics are astounding.

And it's just, we have to keep talking about it. There are too many children and now adult survivors who may still be being victimized because there are not enough people, even people who have lived their careers hearing the worst of the worst, law enforcement, child protection. Often enough, too often, they too are unprepared to hear and hold the whole of what family-controlled commercial exploitation looks like and organized abuse looks like and that has to change. So here we are doing the next thing.

Miranda: And I will affirm for you as a fellow social worker that I feel like part of our training is to be creative. And it's not just about the work we do in the office, it's about the work that we do with our clients in the world. So I'm so glad that you explained that. And I'm so glad that you stepped up to do something really unusual and it's working. It's making a difference. 

And I'm curious just to pause here for a minute about, Kathryn, if you have any thoughts when you hear what a dead end Kait and Laurie ran into with all of their efforts to get help and resources.

Kathryn: Yeah. It's profoundly disappointing, but we see it all the time all over the country. And as you were saying, I think it was you, Laurie, about what justice looks like and how it shows up. And I think we do have to be very creative but I think justice isn't some thing in a law book somewhere. In order for justice to really be justice you need people behind it that are active and pushing it and breathing life into it. From my end and the work that I do in writing legislation, I try to give survivors a voice, a path to remove the barriers that we have in our laws and policies.

But it does take very brave people like you to, come out and speak and give, give the hard thing to talk about a space. I say this a lot when I'm testifying, it is the hardest thing to talk about. As you probably know, both Miranda and I are survivors. My abuse is in the family. And so I understand that struggle when you're seeking safety, you typically go home to your parents, right? And when that place is not safe, you have no place to go. And then, all the psychological safety mechanisms start to be built in our minds. 

But I think when people speak about it they allow lawmakers to see the problem. And it's not until we do that, that we can really affect change. Because the only way people respond is when they're going to lose something. We see it in institutions, it doesn't matter if it's Boy Scouts of America, or, Larry Nassar, Michigan, it doesn't matter what it is, Catholic Church, families, it is not until we have laws and policies that are dealing with the truth of this that we can move forward, offer justice and safety to survivors. And probably first and foremost, in my eyes at least, is to give children in the future a safer place to be. And, the hardest thing to talk about is the thing we must talk about, right? It is, the harder it is to talk about is that thing we must give voice to.

So thank you for doing that.

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, we feel so, so much the same of, we popped our heads up out of the podcast and out of just the being buried under the weight of the safety concerns and all the things and realized we had survivors coming to us saying 'Me too. This is also my story. It was multiple people.'

I was trafficked, and we thought, 'Geez, if I can't get help, I'm a white middle-class suburban, I'm educated, right? Like I have all the resources in the world to get help. If I can't get help who on earth can?' And I don't say that like boastfully, I say that 'Oh my gosh this is really terrible that that it takes so much.'

And. And our motto that we live by is if not us, then who, right? No, this is not easy. You're right. It is the hardest thing to talk about. And there is a cost that comes with that. I hope that we never get used to it. But the cost is worth it because we have to create a safer world. We know that there are kids that will come after us and we have to create safer avenues forward for them because this is not good. 

We've talked a fair amount recently about the fact that whatever change we're able to make going forward can never go back and make it so that Kait had the help that she needed throughout this whole experience as a child and even since we've met. So there is a grief that comes with that, that we don't want to ignore or deny. That's a very real thing that we live with, Kait lives with, every day. But yet there is a hope and an empowerment that comes when we say, okay, but the next person coming along at least is going to have a fighting chance, perhaps because someone has heard, 'Hey, wait, this is a thing and now you're telling me about something that I've heard about before. I'm a whole lot less likely to be skeptical.' And it matters. It matters. 

Honestly, in terms of the ethics of the social work profession, of course, I understand the importance of good boundaries and yes to all of that, but I often encourage people to take a pause and think about what would you actually do? Honestly, what I say all the time is I end up in these spaces because I have the opportunities to meet people who have, a story, who have a need and so I get an opportunity to show up but really, who is going to sit by while they are sitting in front of an actual human being who's telling you I am not safe and I don't know what else to do to keep myself and my kids safe?

Are you going to be like 'h that's really unfortunate bye I'm gonna go get my nails done?' what? Do you get your nails done?

I don't actually.

Miranda: That 

Kait & Laurie: also afraid of car washes. I don't wash my car. I'm afraid of car washes, just a little. We gotta work on that.

Miranda: Oh, that's cute. I like that. We will get into more. I think it's really important that we talk about why does there seem to be a particular hole in the system for children who are being trafficked? It's something that is so much more common than I knew about before I started learning from you guys and what you two are doing about that.

But before we get to that, tell us what happened when you started the podcast. And in particular, I do think it's really interesting that you live in western New York, the Niagara Falls area, right? And what has happened within your community as well since the podcast came out?

Kait & Laurie: So we actually just dropped an episode on The Ugly Truth podcast about the biggest question that I get asked all the time is, 'Why not just move? Why not just move?' And I'll get to that answer. But what happened? At first, nothing. Like five people listened and it was all my husband's family. And we were like, 'Oh my God, five people listened. And then I was like, Oh, it's just Aunt Patty listening.' 

Yeah. Listening five times. All of a sudden yeah, there was this groundswell, people started listening and it started catching people's attention and there was some traction being made where people were, one, offering information 'Hey I know this about your family.' 'I always had suspicions of weird things.' 'I never imagined this, but here's a whole bunch of information that corroborates it.' Or 'I bet this man was involved because he did A, B, and C. That was uber creepy. And I always wondered what was up with him.' People we had not named. Yeah. And so there was this, groundswell of support of people saying, 'Oh my goodness, this is happening in our little Western New York community.' This is happening on Grand Island. This is happening with this church that I always knew was real creepy and real culty. And like nobody was shocked people were shocked that it had happened so close to them, but then they were 'ooh, that tracks'. for the people within the church who are part of...

Kathryn: Who are protecting that system.

Kait & Laurie: Yes, exactly. So yeah, we had no foresight of how that would happen. Again, we were like, 'We're just two fools doing a podcast.' And all of a sudden there was just all of this traction and all of this, of course, resistance. So, we say we're either loved or hated in our community.

And if people approach us, we're always 'like this is about to be very affirming or really terrible. I'm not sure.' 

Kathryn: I know that feeling. 

Kait & Laurie: Yeah. Yes, it was very polarizing in our community people were either like, 'I have information I want to help. How do I support.?'

We hosted a pop-up to raise like seed money for our nonprofit. And people showed up literally just to meet us because they were like, 'You impacted my life. I'm a survivor. And I just have to tell you that I was able to tell my husband more of my story because you told your story', right? So that the incredible amount of support. And on the flip side of that, the people that, actively were trying to discredit actively.

Everything they had just thrown at them and there's an entire Facebook page that's dedicated to discrediting my story. No, not even a little bit surprised, but just everything they had throwing at it. So it was very polarizing. It is very polarizing. And so the question became, 'Why not just move, right?'

And it's not that we haven't thought about it. Of course, there's so many reasons to get out of Western New York. But 

Miranda: Totally 

Kait & Laurie: I also think it's the wrong question. 

Kathryn: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. 

Kait & Laurie: Any abuse scenario, whether it's domestic violence, sexual abuse, this type of abuse, right? I think we are so accustomed as a society to ask the victim to be uncomfortable and to do the hard thing, right? Like, how about the offenders move, right? How about they feel the need to get out of Dodge? 

Kathryn: have the victim fix it? Have the victim be inconvenienced. Yes.

Kait & Laurie: Yes. Yes Kathryn. Absolutely. Yes. But that's the norm, right? If we're talking about a domestic violence victim, what we say is 'gather your things and your children and go into a shelter, leave your home, right? Be on the run.' and so it's the wrong

Miranda: We need to start questioning that, and we need to start questioning the questioning. Why does the questioning immediately go to victims and survivors every time? I want to say things like, 'Why would you ask such an ignorant question?' 'How embarrassing that you don't know more about this topic.' 

Kait & Laurie: Right. Educate

Kathryn: That surprises me, Miranda. 

Kait & Laurie: I like it. No, but you're absolutely right. It's the, the burden of everything falls on the victim. And that is a problem. We say all the time in the podcast, if someone's house was burglarized nobody would be saying that: 'But was it? Are you sure? Do you have a video where you're wearing your pajamas and that's why they burglarized your...'

 Nobody would say that. If a man is mugged on the street, he was mugged on the street. Open, closed, done, right? When a woman is 

Right, exactly. Especially a white man. Especially yeah, if there's a woman who comes forward with sexual abuse or sexual assault, it's 'well, did you go to the hospital?'

'Did you have your entire body and you know invaded to prove this right show me the evidence?' And it's like, even when you show the evidence, 'Oh, but did it really happen the way you described it happening? And wait, that detail doesn't quite track my way of thinking about how it could have happened. So therefore gee, I don't know.' Yeah, 

Miranda: and we can't allocate funds to test your rape kit because 

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, 

Miranda: it's just not a priority 

Kait & Laurie: No. Oh, until you're in the hot seat in the media, because then all of a sudden we go looking for funds. I've been reading some articles recently about some of that has happened, but only when there's pressure brought. So that was a huge rabbit hole.

Sorry about that. But, 

Miranda: No, it's good. 

Kathryn: it's a good. 

rabbit hole.

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, it is polarizing here. And yep, it is. I don't go to stores by myself in Western New York. I actually love coming to Boston because I can like separate from Laurie down a different aisle and not feel like I'm going to be accosted, and so yeah, it is not easy.

The reaction to the podcast has been intense living here. And I don't know what to do about that. Because your kids have relationships with your husband's family and that's your support system. And, I live here, so we, our whole thing is here. And, so to move, there'd be a great deal of loss and that's not fair.

Enough has been lost by you and your family.

Miranda: not fair. And my heart really goes out to you because you never get a break from that. You never get to say 'Today I'm free to roam the mall'.

Kait & Laurie: No. Yeah.

Miranda: Really sorry to hear that. I did know that, but it's really heartbreaking to put myself in your shoes and think about that. 

Kait & Laurie: Yeah. It's exhausting. So do we want to talk about like recent events that even make it harder to live in our community? So just like the lawsuit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so let me start with this. Okay. 

So not only is it critically important to have legislation on the books that support survivors, it's really important to hold those systems accountable for upholding the laws. And that has been a problem that we encountered recently. Yeah so the Facebook page that's dedicated to describing me was able to get hold of a police report of an assault that took place a couple years ago. The one right before the podcast.

And they posted it on Facebook. Only pieces of it, right? They cherry-picked what they wanted out of it. But they posted it on Facebook. They were able to get the police report, all of the detective's notes, all of the references, everything, stuff we weren't even able to get

Kathryn: How were they able to get that?

Kait & Laurie: they asked.

They asked, they foiled it. Even though that's

Kathryn: Oh, okay. 

Kait & Laurie: in New York. So my advice

Kathryn: I was going to say, for police reports, I don't know about that.

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, so my advice to every survivor is find an attorney, honestly I called my attorney and I was, clearly upset and he said, that's not legal. You can't foil when it comes to sexual assault, you can't foil that's protected by civil rights. There's so much legislation that... 

Kathryn: Invasion of privacy laws as well. And others, there are lots of like civil tort remedies for that sort of thing. 

Kait & Laurie: Yeah. And the whole idea being that we want sexual assault survivors to come forward and to report and so we remove that barrier that they may feel hesitant to do so because of backlash in their community, because of naming an offender, right? And so we put all these laws in place to protect survivors of sexual assault from being named publicly or from people being able to obtain those records. And the county that I live in, unfortunately, did not abide by that. 

Kait & Laurie: being sued for defamation by an offender that we named because he yeah, I know are you shocked? I know we must be lying then but this guy was running children's sports camps in local church and yes, we named it. We're sitting and waiting to find out whether New York's anti-SLAPP laws are actually going to do their job for us. We'll see. Remains to be seen. That lawsuit very much that offender thought they could pour a bunch of money into the biggest, best law firm in Western New York, or so they thought. And we wouldn't have resources. We would fold. And cause all their ask is just to shut down the podcast. And and we found resources and we're not folding. It's interesting though, 

Miranda: Do you want to tell us who your law firm is? 

Kait & Laurie: Yeah. Laurie is represented by. Duke Holzman. Duke Holzman. And I am represented by Lipsitz Green Cambria. Two of the biggest, baddest. I don't know if we're allowed to swear on here, but 

Kathryn: Oh, yes. Oh, please. It's absolutely necessary at times.

Kait & Laurie: Love, okay, love my attorney is an asshole, but he's my asshole. He is such a jerk, but he's mine. He's all mine. And I'm like, I could not be like, I would never want to be sitting across the table from him on the opposite side. But yeah.

Miranda: You want a pit bull in your corner. 

Kathryn: Assholes have their place in this process.

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. Yeah, he is, but I 

Miranda: I love that take

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, we'll take it. So yeah, we're really grateful for that for their services and honestly, survivors just don't know. Because they don't have anybody advocating for them. They don't have all the information. And of course, you just take at face value what someone is giving to you. 

Kathryn: And that goes with the whole, just trusting people in authority, right? 

Parents, young people, just automatically trusting people in authority, thinking they absolutely know. Police officers don't know. They didn't go to law school. And even if they did go to law school, maybe they didn't even practice this kind of thing.

So they're not all-knowing and powerful. And I think that becomes a real problem wherever the abuse is happening that you just, it's this breach of authority and, violation of, the limits of authority. And, sounds I don't know, sounds like that cop was an asshole too.

It's been a wild ride. Especially living here.

Miranda: Yeah. So what I would love to hear from you two is, give us the facts. Tell us about the statistics and the research and how prevalent is this and who is it happening to and where? We all need to know more about 

Kait & Laurie: so what we say 

Miranda: family-controlled trafficking. 

Kait & Laurie: No, you're good. So what we say in our trainings is that, society understands that human trafficking is happening. We have celebrities involved in it. We have people who start nonprofits, but what we often see this level one, this basic knowledge is 'it's happening over there. It's happening in Cambodia. It's happening in East Asia. I don't have to worry about it. I can send money overseas and it's happening over there.' That's base level, right? Then if we pop up to this kind of second tier, more people understand this, more people understand or less people understand this, that It's happening in the US.

We have anti-trafficking organizations that are saying, yep, it's happening right here in our backyards. But we're typically looking at marginalized communities. We're typically looking at inner-city foster kids,

Kathryn: Foster care. Yep.

Kait & Laurie: We're talking about teens and tweens that are being lured off the internet or

Homeless kids, that kind of thing.

Exactly.

Kids with vulnerabilities. Exactly. 12 to 18. We're tending to talk about also the 12 and up set.

And we're talking about it more in Romeo pimps. We're talking about pimp-controlled, gang-controlled. We're not talking about families. But then there's this top tier where even fewer people understand this idea of family-controlled human trafficking.

And that's where we live. And the crazy thing is that even though the base level down here is, it's happening over there. Statistics tell us that in 42 percent of all trafficking cases globally, so this is from Polaris, 42% the primary offender and trafficker is a family member or caregiver. So we understand, statistics are telling us that just less than half of all trafficking cases, the first trafficker was a family member. And yet we're talking about Romeo pimps and gang-controlled pimps and all of that where we have so much resources being poured into that. And yet we're ignoring this 42 percent over here. also

Kathryn: And given the nature of secrecy in the family, I guarantee that number is, in truth, much higher.

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. There's an article the U.S. State Department actually put out, which is so interesting to me that just what, two years ago, it was 2021 the U.S. State Department put out an article that it's called 'The Unique Complexities of Familial Trafficking.' And it literally said just that, that due to the nature of it and the normalization within families and that the abuse starts so young, we are having a hard time even figuring out how to address it. We know that it looks different. We know that we need to address it differently. But due to the secrecy and the kind of containment of it, it's very hard to even get research or even really understand how to help. Which I thought was really interesting. 

It is true that it is fundamentally difficult to get to those victims. Yes. But there are also too many situations that we hear about, like Kait's, where she's trying to tell people like something very terrible is happening. And it's more than 'my father is sexually abusing me,' even though that is already horrendous. But people are not able to hear it. We do not want to believe as a culture that it is possible that a parent or caregiver could be so careless, so callous with a vulnerable child that they would traffic their own child, but yet again, the research bears it 

Kathryn: They're still living in the stranger danger policy, 

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. The other statistic and the other connection that we aren't making in society, but we need to, so everybody understands the child sexual abuse material epidemic. Truly it's on everybody's minds. But what we're not talking about is that The Canadian Center for Child Protection did a study on adult survivors whose child sexual abuse images were found online. So they were children when it happened. They're now adults, right? So they did a survey, a study of these adults. And what they found is that 56 percent of these now adult survivors stated that the abuse started before the age of four. And that 87 percent reported that the abuse started before the age of 11. So if we're talking about 87 percent of child sexual abuse material, having children depicted who are prepubescent under the age of 11, it begs the question, we have to ask the question, how are these offenders gaining access to children that young?

to these 

Kathryn: kids? Yeah. 

Kait & Laurie: These are not runaways. These are not teens and tweens that are sexting or that got lured off the internet or that had a boyfriend. These are kids who are under the age of 11. There has to be either a criminally neglectful parent who has no idea what their kid is doing or is in contact with or a complicit parent or an active 

Kathryn: Yeah.

Kait & Laurie: so but it's like we're not putting that together, right?

Like we're all like, oh my gosh, the child pornography industry. It's so terrible, which I hate that term, but that's what people say, right? But we're not stopping to say, okay, if the trend is that kids are getting younger and younger in these images, who is producing that? 

We're also not talking about this other statistic from this survey, is that 53 percent of those children whose abuse started before the age of four report being abused into adulthood.

And so there are plenty of people like Kait out there who are still trying to break free from these offenders. These are not opportunistic offenders. These are more sociopathic psychopathic offenders who enjoy the ride and they do not let go until they are made to let go. But we're also not talking about that because it is awful to think about. We don't want to believe that's true. Regular people do not want to believe that somebody could do that. They also don't want to believe that the systems fail victims the way that they do because who wants to live in a society.

Miranda: I completely agree. It's such a huge obstacle and you think about when we look at those statistics about one in four girls, one in ten boys get sexually abused before they're 18. We hear that and we think, oh, how sad, but we don't really believe in our hearts that it's the kids who are in our living room who came over to watch a movie with our child, but it is.

Kathryn: Yeah, it's what it's like watching the news and people just want to change the channel.

Kait & Laurie: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody wants to live in a world where law enforcement isn't the say all the be all and the end all, right? Nobody wants to live in a world where mothers could possibly do this to their children. And so it's easier just to look away. It's easier to just say, ah, I don't know. That doesn't apply to me. Which is part of why the podcast was so polarizing because people were like, Oh my God, no, this, I know this girl, right? And that made it a reality for

them.

Miranda: So what do we do? What do we do to raise awareness, but more importantly than that, to put systems in place where institutions are poised to respond appropriately and help stop and prevent this?

Kait & Laurie: So there's a quote from Dr. Michael Salter. He's a criminologist out of Australia who's done a ton of research into this very thing and into organized sexual abuse. And the very beginning of his book says if you don't even believe that this type of abuse could happen, you will miss it when it's standing right in front of you.

So we genuinely live by that quote. The reality is that all of my escape attempts failed because the people who were in front of me that had potential to help just could not fathom that this could be, or even had the knowledge base to say, could this be right? There was just no idea that this was even a possibility.

And so the first thing is education, right? We have to get to the helpers of the world, which includes teachers. Teachers are in an absolutely unique position to build relationships. These kids are typically isolated. These family networks and these systems of offenders typically isolate them other than school.

And so teachers have a really unique spot to be able to build a relationship with and to see inconsistencies and concerns that nobody else has, nobody else has that kind of access. We also train Department of Child and Family Services, so that when and if they get involved, if now there is, a disclosure made about multiple offenders, they can start to say, okay, what am I looking at here? Child Advocacy Centers, a one-stop shop for kids to be interviewed when there's an allegation. Law enforcement.

Kathryn: Yep. Massachusetts Citizens for Children. Have you heard of them? Great organization Jetta is a dear friend. I'm actually on their board. And they have training material and training programs for educators. Jetta would be a great person for you guys to reach out to.

Kait & Laurie: That would be great, yeah. But honestly, regular people to like you said, Miranda, the kids that are sitting in your living room because your kid invited them over to watch a movie, right? I think about how many friends I had whose parents I interfaced with who didn't know, right and definitely have come back to me now and said, 'I knew something wasn't right with you. I knew that you were hurting. I just didn't know what to do.'

So we need to equip people with what to do. The rest of what I'll say to that is kind of the theme of what we've been saying. We all have to be willing to be made uncomfortable. Yeah. So when you've got a kid in your world, who your your intuition is telling you, there's something that is not right, oftentimes we are just, we're worried about making a mess. We don't want to bother anyone. We don't want to make a problem, quote unquote. But. You're not making a problem by just building a connection and being willing to hear what a child has to say to you or an adult survivor. Again, there is that aspect too.

You may have adults in your world who are also still stuck. So are we willing to be made uncomfortable? Hopefully, the answer for more and more of us is yes. So educating yourself first and foremost, but I guess the second thing is also be willing to stand in the wind with the people around you who are having a hard time.

Though it is pretty windy out here in the anti-trafficking world and trying to fight against this system that is like a runaway train, it does not want to be stopped. So you have to be willing to stand in the wind and find your people who can be the person standing behind you, holding you up when the wind wants to knock you down.

We need more and more people to do something, 

Kathryn: And calling bullshit on the constant, 'Oh, it's their private family privacy. It's none of your business' bullshit, right? It's everyone's business when children are being harmed.

Kait & Laurie: We have to get our heads around this idea that it's not someone else's child, right? We all need to be participating in the reality of having these children have a better future and having them not have to go through this. It can't be like that's not my kid, so I'm not going to wade in.

Kathryn: Yeah, that's just bystander apathy, that's not healthy for the common good of our world, right?

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Miranda: The four of us have in common that we're people who tend to step up and do the uncomfortable thing and say the uncomfortable thing. But I want to say you don't have to start a podcast. You don't have to become an attorney to do this work. You can help by what you're describing, by being a person in your personal life that people can come to, that you pay attention, that you make a phone call, or you take that extra step, even though you know you might get pushback. Pushback is worth it, even if you're wrong because children need to be protected. 

Kait & Laurie: We say all the time, we never set out to have a podcast and honestly it should have never taken one. It really shouldn't. We shouldn't be here. We shouldn't be being sued for defamation because the people in authority didn't remove the person when we told them the first time, right? It shouldn't have taken where we're at to get safe, to get freer, to get all things. And so I don't want that for future survivors. If they want to do that to empower themselves, do it, right, but it should not have taken this much to, to be here. But...

Miranda: That is so true. I would love for you to take this opportunity to tell everyone about Mezzo Allies and the great work that you're doing by launching this nonprofit.

Kait & Laurie: Yes. So we like I said, we popped out of the podcast and realized, 'Oh my gosh, this is a big problem. People across the globe were reaching out to us and saying 'Me too. I don't know what to do.' Just the other day we spoke to a woman who works in a psychiatric hospital and she has a patient that's about to be discharged who is a family-controlled trafficking survivor and this woman who called us said, 'I'm desperately trying to not have her discharged back to her family.' That's what we found ourselves in a place of just, 'Oh my gosh, we have to do something.' 

And yeah, we started a nonprofit called Mezzo Allies. It has been a journey. We've actually only been officially incorporated since July of '23. Thank you. And a lot has happened. I feel like it's been like five years packed into six months. So I feel like we should explain that mezzo is the Italian word for the middle. And, the caption for that is the space between victim and survivor.

And we came to mezzo as we were talking about the fact that people tend to use victim survivor interchangeably, and I don't think they're interchangeable. For too many people, they continue to be victimized, stuck in that role, and they need helpers to be the bridge between that space and survivorship. And so that's what Mezzo Allies is on a mission for.

Kathryn: It's also a spectrum. There's definitely a spectrum. And there's times you can feel like even if the abuse is not continuing, you can feel like a survivor, or feel like a victim. And 

I often try to use both terms in the same sentence.

Kait & Laurie: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, our mission really is one to educate the helpers of the world, right? We are on a mission to train as many people as possible. We've had the opportunity to train a lot of the state of Massachusetts, which is great. We're going out to Idaho later in April.

We've done some medical setting trainings for doctors and nurses, anti-trafficking conferences. So yeah, getting just the statistics, the information and what to look for. We've created training videos so that the mom who always is the person who has the kids over her house can watch the videos and know what to look for.

So that's one side of it. And the other side of it is. Supporting the advocates, right? Supporting the helpers who call us and say, I have a person that I'm helping and I don't know what to do. We didn't have anything like that. I had literally a full-blown meltdown just last week talking about how there was no Mezzo Allies for me, right?

And there wasn't that for Laurie and it was just the two of us out here trying to do our thing and get safe and it was hard. And so wanting to build this army of, you're not doing this alone, right? We're here to help make phone calls or to help facilitate a conversation or whatever that looks like, however we can help.

The goal is eventually to have an army of people who are moving into school settings to train educators about how to talk to kids about these things so that again, those kinds of spaces that are unique, safe places for kids, people are equipped. Trying to build an army of helpers who can come alongside survivors and a system in place to support them.

The dream. That's the dream. Thanks.

Miranda: And you're already having a lot of success with the response to the presentations that you're doing. Obviously, you two are very good at conveying this information in a way that is clear, but also has a lot of passion behind it so it doesn't surprise me. So you're getting a lot of invitations to speak now?

Kait & Laurie: Yeah, we are. Yeah, it's it's humbling. We keep finding ourselves in spaces that we look at each other who are we? What? What? But it's also really exciting. We're like we said, we can't ever go back and make it worth it. It'll never be worth it, but we're moving forward and we're doing something positive with it.

So yeah, it's good. Next week actually is our very first

big public speaking event in our hometown. Yeah, that should be interesting, hopefully you're sending good vibes.

Miranda: Oh, we are, we are going to be holding you in our thoughts. 

Kait & Laurie: It is a lot easier actually to travel the country and do it elsewhere, right? But this will be our first time here in Buffalo. So we're excited and a little bit nervous.

Miranda: Really brave of you guys. I was just going to say, thank you, because I really want to acknowledge that it takes a lot of time, energy, effort, emotional energy, and I know that you guys are not getting rich off this by any means. In fact, you're paying to do it. So I would really encourage, I have donated. I will donate again. If you have recurring donation possibilities, I would like to sign up for that because I know how helpful that is for nonprofits. Please, everyone who's listening, consider just even if it's 5 dollars, this is such an important cause and Kate and Laurie need your help and deserve your help and support.

Kait & Laurie: Thank you. Miranda. I will also say if you are somewhere in the country and you have ties to some of these kind of systems that need to hear from us, put us together. We are eager to spread the message beyond Western New York outside of Massachusetts. The world needs to hear. Yes. 

Miranda: Okay. Wonderful. And you can sign up on the Mezzo Allies website to be a volunteer and there's various roles that you can play, right? Great. Appreciate it. 

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. Yep. There's lots of different tabs on our website. You can fill out forms to hire us. You can volunteer with us, donate be an advocate, be someone that gets trained by us to stand in the wind with a survivor.

Our training videos are there. So we actually just relaunched our website today. So this is really good timing. Yeah, we rebranded a bit. 

Miranda: Oh, cool. And listen to the podcast because I've told several people about your podcast and I say, and by the way, it's funny. And they're like, what? And I'm like, I know it's surprising, but they, and they talk about it in the beginning, but they truly are able to tease each other and bring levity because that's how you survive it too.

Kait & Laurie: Absolutely. 

Miranda: But it's not a heavy podcast. It is. There's material that, and information about your own experiences that are absolutely heavy. But you can pick and choose which episodes that you listen to. You will learn so much and you will be drawn to these incredible women and who they are and the work that, that you guys are doing.

Kait & Laurie: Thank You. Thank you. We know we're funny. 

Kathryn: Thank you.

Miranda: You are, is there anything else that, Kait and Laurie, you want to say, and then Kathryn, is there any last thoughts you. want to share on this subject? 

Kait & Laurie: I'll just say we're so grateful for you, the work that you've done coming before us, Miranda, finding you in The Second Wound was just pivotal for us of understanding, again, it's not just us who are out here dealing with sort of that. Yeah, I second that. I remember when I found your account The Second Wound and I was like, 'Laurie, all of this is what it is. This is how it feels right now.' So yeah, thank you. 

Miranda: So glad it was helpful. It is so universal, that re-victimization. It's really hard.

Kait & Laurie: Yeah. So thank you. You guys are amazing. 

Miranda: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank

Kathryn: Thank you.

Thank YOU for listening!

Check out the Truth and Consequences website to find all our episodes, photos, and show notes, that’s truth, the letter n, consequences.com. 

If you are interested in information and support about the aftermath of sexual abuse and assault or my coaching services, visit my website secondwound.com where you can also sign up for my blog which sometimes includes posts about my podcast guests. 

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And always remember: your truth matters.

Come back next week to hear our interview with the author of The Narcissist in Your Life, journalist Julie L. Hall.

Original music for the Truth & Consequences podcast (including our beautiful theme song) is composed and performed by Maddie Morris and produced by Pete Ord of Haystack Records.

Thank you, Adam, for all the technical support and for finding us that great B&B in Norfolk. You are the trip planner extraordinaire.