Christa Brown, Author of Baptistland

Named as one of the “top 10 religion newsmakers” of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. Kathryn Robb and I talk with Christa about her poignant new memoir, Baptistland: A Memoir of Abuse, Betrayal, and Transformation.

Show Notes 

Christa’s website

Purchase Baptistland 

Follow Christa on Twitter @ChristaBrown777

Subscribe to In Solidarity on Substack

Christa created the site Stop Baptist Predators

Enough Abuse Campaign of which Kathryn Robb is the National Director of the Children’s Justice Campaign

Our beautiful theme song is written & performed by Maddie Morris and produced by Pete Ord at Haystack Records.

Find the Truth & Consequences website, Facebook page, Instagram & Twitter accounts. Find the Second Wound website, Facebook page, Instagram & Twitter accounts. Learn about personal coaching with host Miranda Pacchiana, MSW on the Second Wound website coaching page.

Transcript

Christa Brown, Author of Baptistland

Miranda Pacchiana: Hi, it’s Miranda coming to you from my home podcast studio where I have an announcement to share with you today. This will be the final episode of the Truth and Consequences podcast, at least for the foreseeable future. The reasons are nothing revelatory, I just feel ready to wrap it up. But I do have more to say so stay tuned after the interview for a more detailed explanation. 

I feel so fortunate to have the perfect guest today to help me and Kathryn cap off 47 episodes of the podcast. Christa Brown, the great activist, author, survivor, and hugely admired disruptor of the Southern Baptist Convention’s abuse coverups. If you don’t know Christa already, it’s time to change that because she and her work are a gift to all of us and I am thrilled that I get to share her with you.  

One quick thing to note is that halfway through our interview, Christa got booted off the Zoom call (it turned out her computer chose that time to reboot) and naturally, Kathryn and I joked that it was Satan at work--so now you’ll understand that reference in the close of the interview. 

Miranda Pacchiana: Hello and welcome to Truth and Consequences, a podcast about trauma and its aftermath. We talk about what happens, what hurts, and what helps us heal. I'm your host, Miranda Pacchiana. I'm a writer, social worker and personal coach and the creator of the website, The Second Wound. 

I am joined by my co-host and friend, Kathryn Robb. Kathryn is an attorney, writer, survivor, and the national director of the Children's Justice Campaign at Enough Abuse. Kathryn writes and campaigns for legislation to reform statutes of limitations for child sexual abuse victims and end impunity for bad actors, including perpetrators and institutions. Hi, Kathryn.

Kathryn Robb: Hi, Miranda

Miranda Pacchiana: So our guest today is Christa Brown. Christa Brown was named as one of the top 10 religion newsmakers of 2022. She has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy, sex abuse, and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention.

As one of the first to go public with substantiated molestation allegations against a Baptist minister and documentation that others knew she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. Brown has been featured in the Houston Chronicle, Vice, writes for Baptist News Global, and has had numerous mentions in national media.

She's the author of Baptistland, a memoir of abuse, betrayal and transformation, and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher, Predator, and His Gang, a retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma and she lives with her husband in Colorado. So welcome Christa.

Christa Brown: Thank you. Thank you so much, Miranda. I'm so happy to be here with both of you.

Kathryn Robb: We're happy to have you.

Christa Brown: Thank you.

Miranda Pacchiana: Well, your reputation precedes you and we know what a big honor it is to have you with us. Um, I think that we're all kindred spirits in, some of our history and our goals and our missions so it really is a pleasure. So I recently read your second book, Baptistland, that was released in May. I loved it. It was a really beautiful read. And not just because of the important issues that it shines a light on about the Southern Baptist Convention and dangerous aspects of religious culture, but because it was just so beautifully crafted and so honest. So if I may, I'd like to read one of my favorite blurbs from the front of the book, written by R. Marie Griffith that I think summarizes the book really well. 

She writes, “Christa Brown has long been a crucial voice speaking out against clergy sexual abuse and its systematic coverups within the Southern Baptist Convention. Her beautifully written memoir offers a stunning portrait of how Baptist culture and theology have shaped evangelical children and family life over generations, creating the ‘what happened didn't happen’ stance embodied by both her childhood church and her family. Baptistland is a powerful and truly inspiring read.” And as a reader, I know that she was referencing a line that you have in the book. That phrase, what happened, didn't happen stance.

Christa Brown: Right. That was the nature of my family and yeah, the faith as well.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah. And that really is at the heart of what has caused you so much personal strife and struggle within the family and within the church. You were only a young teenager when your youth pastor, Tommy Gilmore, began grooming and sexually abusing you. He insidiously used religion to commit abuse and the people in the church used the same kind of philosophy to enable it. One of the things that I find so disturbing about this type of thing is people like your pastor use the supposed will of God and the victim's desire to be good and to do what's right against them and then blame them for it, which is exactly what happened to you, right?

Christa Brown: Yes, exactly. He twisted what was best in me, my faith, my desire to be a good girl, my desire to please God, to further the kingdom of God, twisted all of that into a weapon. And it was a very, very powerful weapon, as faith is.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah. And maybe you could tell us a little bit too about how your childhood within the family at home and your attachment to the church kind of set you up for that as well.

Christa Brown: Yeah, I think so. Because, I was raised as a very, very good girl. I did not challenge authority as I was taught not to. I was raised that, pastors speak with the voice of God and the authority of God. Obey them that have the rule over you for they watch over your soul. That's a Bible verse for those who weren't raised in this.

And you know, that ‘for they watch over your soul’ part is important because what that told me as a kid was, obey the pastor because he's watching over your soul and preventing you from burning forever in hell. And of course, I was raised in a faith that taught a very literal hell, not some metaphorical thing, where you literally burn forever in a hellfire. And so that weighed pretty heavily, and with that kind of indoctrination, I don't know as a kid how I could have done anything other than be obedient. There was no other possibility for me. The possibility of saying no to God, no, that wasn't within the realm.

Miranda Pacchiana: Such terror attached to it too. This idea that's very real and for a child who has imagination and believes what they're told about how the world and the universe works, it's very real.

Christa Brown: Exactly. I was raised in a very fearful environment, which I didn't even identify as being fearful. It simply was what was normal.

Miranda Pacchiana: And what breaks my heart about that is just to think about your description of your individual circumstance is true and has been true for so long for thousands and thousands of children.

Christa Brown: Exactly right. Yes, exactly right for thousands, and with so many doing absolutely nothing about it. Failing to recognize even the power of their own faith that they profess and how that can be twisted. I would argue that I recognize the power of faith a great deal more than they do.

Miranda Pacchiana: I agree.

Kathryn Robb: The, really shocking piece of this is that they basically hijack religion and the way people think about God, regardless of your religious affiliation, to take that idea of power over you, ironically in such a strange, sick way to gain power over you for their own selfish reasons, which is nothing short of abuse, obviously.

Christa Brown: Yeah, that is exactly what happens is they hijack the faith and use it for domination, and I think, of course, you know, in my little individual story, we see that kind of on a micro level, but I think we also see that on a macro level in Baptistland, in this culture at large, that so often then also uses faith to enable these crimes, to cover up these crimes, to keep victims silent, and then even more broadly we see it, I think, some with the merger of faith and Christian nationalism, where in all of these ways, both micro and macro, faith is being used for authoritarian purposes.

Miranda Pacchiana: And it supports the people in power staying in power. So they have no motivation to see it or do anything differently. Other than morality, ironically.

Christa Brown: Yes, but what they choose is to use religion as a way to legitimize, as you say, their status quo power. Which serves their ends because they hold the power.

Miranda Pacchiana: Exactly. Something that I, a long time ago, came to a conclusion about the Catholic Church, which was that it's not an issue of the Catholic Church repeatedly turning a blind eye to what is happening with priests abusing children. It's not only that, it's actually that they have become a place that attracts pedophiles. And because they have that information, and they continue to serve people who want to hurt children and take advantage of their position, in a way, I see them as a pedophile organization.

Kathryn Robb: It's a form of organized crime, in my opinion, the whole structure of so many religions. It's this fraud. It's just this shell of a real thing that's used to perpetuate crimes, sadly, mostly crimes against children.

Christa Brown: I was talking with someone the other day and he was talking about, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention and, why they can't seem to get a handle on this. And he was talking about some experiences he had in his younger years, with looking at and considering organized crime organizations and how hard it is when you have a multicellular kind of dispersed arrangement to attribute accountability. And he called the Southern Baptist Convention ‘a deniability structure’. And I thought about that and I thought, you know, I think he's on to something there. 

Miranda Pacchiana: Exactly. I always think of this quote that I heard Bessel van der Kolk say sort of offhand in an interview he was doing where he talked about the value of institutions and the way that they can create community and support you in different ways. And then he just said, ‘but institutions are dangerous’. And that has rung in my head ever since because both can be true. Both are true.

Christa Brown: Right. And what we see in the Southern Baptist Convention and in the Catholic Church and in other faith groups, this does not happen on this level without many thousands of complicit enablers.

Miranda Pacchiana: What I wondered about, as I reflected back on your story for you, Christa, is what does it do and what did it do for you personally in your kind of waking up to the way that you had been treated both at home and in the church? How does that affect your trust?

Christa Brown: Um, I'm not a person who gives trust very easily, um, at all. Um, But I do have a very few people in my life whom I trust completely. And that of course is an enormous gift, um, for which I'm very, very grateful. But no, I, I do not give trust easily. I think trust has to be earned, uh, particularly when there is this long history, but of course that inability to trust in my younger years, certainly my ability to form relationships, to, to have intimate relationships. Um, and that can be extremely destructive. And not only of course, did it affect my ability to trust in others, but it affected my ability to trust in my own self to trust in my own ability to trust wisely. Because if I could have believed all that and trusted this person, I don't trust myself to make such assessments.

Kathryn Robb: That's part of the abuse though. That's part of like, you know, taking away your power, taking away your ability to believe in yourself as someone who has autonomy and can make reasonable, sound decisions. that's part of the manipulation and the power and, yeah, it's a form of larceny, in my opinion, the way they kind of steal your, your internal sense of, geez, what feels right, what doesn't feel right.

It's so profound, because it's, it's that kind of life or death, what's beyond death, you know, what brought on life, all of those really noble questions, are so connected to religion in so many ways. So, if you start doubting yourself within that structure, obviously it carries on as a survivor myself, I know that I had a lot of issues with trust, a lot of similar issues with intimate relationships, especially with men. And it really took away my ability to assess those. Um, but I think when it happens in the backdrop of religion and all of what that means, it has such a profound effect.

Christa Brown: It does. I think there's a reason why so many survivors of abuse in faith environments refer to it as soul murder. Because faith is so tied with your own self-identity and your own core identity, that when that is exploited for such unholy ends, yeah, soul murder is pretty apt.

Kathryn Robb: Agreed.

Miranda Pacchiana: It's powerful. And meanwhile at home from as early as you could remember, your oldest sister Judy was dominating and overpowering and I would even go so far as to say torturing you.

Christa Brown: Yeah. Yes, I think so. Uh, and you asked earlier about things in my family that, you know, might've made me more vulnerable, but I think that's part of it because this kind of abuse, it was normal to me. I had zero expectation that there would be anyone in my life who would protect me. I mean, what was the point of, of even talking about it because it was just the way things were?

Miranda Pacchiana: And sadly, you were right.

Christa Brown: Yes, I was very right. There was, well, then when it came to the abuse by the pastor over the course of months, talking about it certainly did not gain me anything. If anything, it only gained me, um, more shame.

Miranda Pacchiana: Sure. And your parents were witness to at least some of what was happening, you know, any parents really paying attention, could see it and they never did intervene on your behalf. You really just got that message reinforced over and over to comply and be a good girl and not make a fuss and not disrupt people by speaking up, right?

Christa Brown: Right. And don't draw attention to yourself. Don't cause any trouble. Yeah, exactly.

Miranda Pacchiana: And yet look who you are today.

Christa Brown: Well, yeah, I look at the women, historically in my family, you know, my aunts, my grandparents, my mom, all of whom really had their voices taken in various ways. Um, so I feel very grateful to have had a voice, and I hope I've used it well.

Miranda Pacchiana: I hope you feel proud too, because you deserve to, and you are a great role model to all of us. I think that Kathryn and I can certainly identify with that feeling of being seen as a troublemaker and you know, how much backlash you get from the beginning from even just starting to try and experiment with speaking up on your own behalf. But now we're pretty proud to be labeled that way.

Christa Brown: Yeah, um, I would not do things differently, but I would say in the early days of my advocacy work, I was surprised and taken aback and really, wholly unprepared for the extent of the backlash.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah. And I would love to get into that more too, because the victim blaming the backlash, the coverup is as bad or sometimes even worse than the crime is something that is so familiar on a personal level to most survivors, I would say, and on an organizational and institutional level as well in your case and in so many people. 

It left such an impression on me to read the story of the drip drip of the insidious ways that the youth pastor that Tommy Gilmore worked to, create inroads to use you. And it's not even as though you were interested and you know, we don't blame victims who are coerced and persuaded, you know, that that can often be part of it.

But when he was kind of done with you, he just turned right back around and called you a temptress and blamed the entire thing on you that you hated from the beginning.

Christa Brown: Yeah, to the point of even, um, making me apologize to his wife, which I did. I begged for her forgiveness. Those words came from my own mouth, to the point of making me kneel in his office while he stood over me, one hand on my shoulder, one hand raised, praying, that God would cast Satan from me, because I had harbored Satan, and as a kid, you know, raised in this faith group, being told I had harbored Satan, that I had Satan within me, that was absolutely terrifying.

Kathryn Robb: That's like the epitome of gaslighting.

Christa Brown: Yeah, pretty powerful stuff. 

Kathryn Robb: So who had Satan in them? I mean, not that I believe that anyone has Satan in them, but like, really?

Christa Brown: Right.

Kathryn Robb: What a projection.

Miranda Pacchiana: Projection. Thank you.

Kathryn Robb: What, what a projection and an insane gaslighting on a child that's just insanity. 

Miranda Pacchiana: And you were a child. Let's not forget. You were a minor that was being forced to apologize for your supposed sins. And here he is wearing the ostensible authority of God as he's putting you in this position, making you apologize, scaring you about Satan.

Christa Brown: Right. And his wife, of course, she then knew too. And her only response was, this stony-faced, I'll pray for you. There was no one, in my childhood church. That gave me even one bit of comfort or care, much less any help.

Miranda Pacchiana: And that's something that you talk about in the book too. Um, let me just see if I can find, I did pull a quote. 

Kathryn Robb: Really the epitome of victim blaming, like, times a thousand.

Christa Brown: And of course it worked, because it did keep me quiet for a very, very, very long time. Because I absorbed all that.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah, actually, okay. Here's a quote that I pulled out where you cite a Bible verse that the pastor recited to you. And then he insisted that you shouldn't consider the standards of quote the world and should instead place your trust in God's will for your relationship because God's will was perfect. And you say, “Yeah, it was twisted. All these years later, I still find it painful to realize that I actually believed it. How could anyone be so stupid? And yet I was not in fact a stupid girl. Instead I was a faith-filled girl and that's different.” And I thank you for saying that because lots and lots of people need to hear that. And coming to believe that is a long and tough process, maybe a lifelong process.

Christa Brown: It is a process, yes. I think the verse there that you were about to reference was, uh, “Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed, that you may know that good and perfect will of God.” And yeah, that was another verse that, he would use as a weapon, the idea being that, the standards of the world, which would have indicated, that a man should have only one life, um, were not applicable because that was the world and God's way was perfect, even if we couldn't understand it.

Miranda Pacchiana: How convenient.

Christa Brown: It is incredibly twisted. Yeah.

Miranda Pacchiana: What do you think, and I know, somewhat of the answers from reading your book, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what the factors were that led you to see the truth about the abuse and about the upside-down nature of the church and your family's attitude toward it. And I would even say reading the book, maybe this was sort of the last step for you, but really seeing the way that your family took advantage of your goodwill and trust and kindness. What got you there to start to wake up and say, you know what, this is messed up.

Christa Brown: The waking up really began when my own daughter was approaching the same age that I had been at the time I was sexually abused. 

Kathryn Robb: So frequently the case.

Christa Brown: Yes, there was something about seeing that through the eyes of a mother, instead of the eyes that I had grown up with and held still from my own childhood, seeing it through the eyes of a mother shifted everything, because what I knew for sure was that if someone had done to my own daughter what had been done to me, that I would not blame my daughter and that I would be absolutely furious. And that, that was the one, you know, I tend to be the kind of person I'm prone to a lot of self-doubt. I'm always second-guessing myself and reassessing, but that small kernel of truth I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt, I knew it with absolute certainty, and it was from that small kernel that everything else began to unravel realized not only was it my story, but as a mother, I thought about all the other kids too. I mean, there's always a part of you that's thinking not only about your own child.

Miranda Pacchiana: Mm hmm.

Christa Brown: but about all children.And I could not live with that. I couldn't live with it.

Miranda Pacchiana:  A powerful realization that, like Kathryn said, many people do have that it becomes a turning point. And yet it's not a given because a lot of people still continue to, you know, suppress and compartmentalize and, and not be in touch with that reality. And that is often how it gets perpetuated.

Christa Brown: Right. I think as I talk about in my book, for example, that my mother was abused by her brother when she was young. And of course, we came from people of very modest means and she never had any kind of counseling. Um, but I think, you know, as an adult looking at her. I realize, given that she was never able to see her own self as having been victimized, she was then wholly incapable of seeing what was done to me.

Miranda Pacchiana: Absolutely, it becomes normalized and the coping mechanism of denial is strong. Mm hmm.

Christa Brown: Right. Right.

Miranda Pacchiana: You also started seeing a psychiatrist at some point, and that was big for you, right?

Christa Brown: I saw a psychiatrist when I was much younger, and then I've had a couple of really, really excellent psychologists since then, both in Austin and in Colorado here. Um, and again, I feel like I have been very, very fortunate to have found, uh, excellent therapeutic care, uh, people who knew what they were doing,

Miranda Pacchiana: Well, and you, you write about how he reframed your experiences within your family and helped you to see what was actually happening and why it felt so wrong to you.

Christa Brown: Right.

Miranda Pacchiana: I can relate to that, um, and your husband, Jim, your relationship with him it's so heartwarming to read in the book and the long journey that you've had together. Tell us about how that helped you too.

Christa Brown: Who of course has been for me, an enormous source of stability and constancy, not to mention love and care. But you know, that has been a really, really good thing in my life because he's a very steady kind of guy, even-keeled. And, you know, having that in my life, he is not a ‘what happened, didn't happen’ kind of person. He, you know, what you see is what you get. He's upfront. There's never any hidden dagger behind the smile. There's no secret agenda. And that for me has been an enormous source of strength.

Miranda Pacchiana: I can relate.

Kathryn Robb: It’s wonderful. It's wonderful.

Miranda Pacchiana: Such a huge change from where you came from. And to have that kind of reality check when you question everything at times. So important. So then you went from waking up, which, you know, it's not a one-time event. It's gradual, um, I would love you to tell our listeners about your career as a crusader and a public advocate. Walk us through that a little bit.

Christa Brown: Well, you know, in the early years, and now we're talking about almost 20 years ago, I really, really believe that if I could just show Southern Baptist leaders the extent of the problem and the damage that was being done, that surely they would want to do something. I believed all that wholeheartedly, you know, um, and so, of course, I did try to communicate with them and talk with them, and I began keeping my own public database online, uh, accumulating stories, always thinking that if I could just show one more, surely this would be the one that would tip the balance, surely this would finally show them. I was wrong every time, of course. Now what I know is that an institution is so mired in duplicity and deception and, self-preserving, institutional power, they aren't going to do what's right, not for the love of God, not for the love of kids, not for much of anything. They will protect…power protects itself. Um, and so now, you know, in the early days, I kind of viewed myself as speaking truth to power. Now, I simply speak truth because I believe truth matters and I believe truth holds value as a moral force in the universe. And to the extent I keep speaking about this, I speak not as a way of speaking truth to power, but as a way of speaking truth with and for the powerless and in solidarity with the powerless.

Miranda Pacchiana: I love that way of putting it. I never thought about it like that. I think that also echoes maybe, the driving force for a lot of people to confront the fact that they've been abused or assaulted is the idea that there are other people out there that are being victimized, will be victimized, have been victimized. We feel a moral responsibility to address that.

Christa Brown: Yeah, you know, in 2006, I wrote an op-ed piece for the Dallas Morning News. And it was about this secret file that was being kept at the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which is the largest statewide Southern Baptist organization in the country. Secret file of men that they called known offenders.

And I was urging in my op-ed piece that they should make this file public because it was just a file in a file cabinet. They weren't notifying anyone or doing anything with the information they held. It was pastors who had been reported by churches by their own standards at that time, their own published standards.

They didn't accept reports from individuals. They accepted only reports from churches. So these were serious reports that were coming in, they were documented. They were being kept in a secret file and nothing was being done about them. My own perpetrator was in that file. When I learned about all this, I wrote this op-ed for the Dallas Morning News 2006, and I really earnestly thought, Oh, if I can just say my piece, if I can just put this out there, then I can be done with all this. If only the Dallas Morning News will publish my little op-ed piece, then I'll have some peace of mind and I can set this all behind me. It didn't turn out that way. You know, I put my email address at the bottom of the op-ed piece and I was just flooded with stories from people, emails, and people who had very similar accounts. And that really was when I to see how incredibly big the problem was. And so no, I couldn't keep quiet after that either.

Miranda Pacchiana: So what happened in terms of a pushback from the church and how did you push through that and keep going?

Christa Brown: I think that was one of the hardest things for me to deal with. When I first went to my childhood church, the same music minister who had been my piano teacher when I was a kid and had known about it when I was a kid, he was still there and once again, I've been wrong about so many things because I was absolutely confident that he had raised a daughter of his own by now, that he would be older and wiser and, and that he would want to help me and that he would realize that something needed to be done.

And of course, I was incredibly wrong. The church immediately threatened to sue me. I mean, it was just a preemptive kind of attack. And that pretty much set me off balance. Um, I wasn't expecting that in hindsight, I kind of think it was, a blessing in disguise because. There was no mistaking where the church was coming from.

I mean, I, you know, was conjuring all these illusions in my head of, oh, they've changed, oh, they're going to want to help me, all of this stuff. But that was very clear and there was no mistaking that. So, that clarity was helpful. So that was with my childhood church. Um, but then as I went further and began to communicate more with denominational leaders, I was called every name in the book. I was publicly reproached with press in the room as a person of no integrity. I was called an evildoer. I was accused of being part of a satanic scheme. Um, it was said that I was just as reprehensible as a sex criminal.

Kathryn Robb: Wow.

Christa Brown: These things were incredibly hurtful and damaging for me. I mean, these things are not harm done by the sexual abuse in my childhood. These things are not harm done by the cover-up of my childhood church. These were things done by the very highest leaders of the largest Protestant faith group in the country. It was very damaging. And there were many, many times when, oh, I just wanted to shut down, which of course is exactly why they do it.

Kathryn Robb: Right, right.

Christa Brown: To intimidate people and push them back into silence and, I'm kind of stubborn by nature and there was always a part of me that just, I did not feel I could give in to that, or give up based on that, or keep quiet based on that, because to do so would let them win. So I'm still here, still talking, all these years later.

Miranda Pacchiana: We’re so grateful you are.

Kathryn Robb: I love it.

Miranda Pacchiana: It brings up a theme that comes up again and again on this podcast that we talked about with our mutual friend, Lacy Crawford, which, is there's this attitude that speaking up about sexual abuse, sexual crimes is the real crime. It's the speaking up about it that makes you bad. While people are turning a blind eye to what is actually going on. And it, it just happens on a micro and macro level. Over and over and over again to survivors.

Christa Brown: Yes. And, oh, you mentioned Lacy Crawford. Oh my gosh, her book, Notes on a Silencing.

Kathryn Robb: Amazing.

Christa Brown: Yes, what an incredibly powerful book. And so I urge everyone to read it. Um, yeah, 

Kathryn Robb: Yeah, I was just thinking about how these institutions, what they care about is their image, their power, and connected to their power, their money. They don't want some girl or some woman telling them about this ugly truth and shining the light on that, right? So they will do everything in their power to shut you down. And it inevitably makes things worse for them. The cover-up is always worse than the problem in terms of, damage control and that sort of thing. They just look so pathetic to any clear-thinking person 

Christa Brown: To anyone who is outside this circle of…

Kathryn Robb: Brain brainwashing

Christa Brown: Yes, then it does look incredibly pathetic. I mean, I'm convinced that there will come a day, probably long after I'm gone, but there will come a day when people will look back at this and say, And they will say, really? Did a multi-billion dollar organization try to rationalize and legitimize doing nothing about child sex abuse because of this thing they've got called local church autonomy? Really? And it will seem so as to be almost inconceivable. 

Kathryn Robb: Well, because it is almost inconceivable. 

Christa Brown: Uh, and this is one reason why I'm so grateful to so many journalists, because, you know, whether or not the Southern Baptist Convention ever changes, ever reforms, ever does anything in my lifetime, these things are being documented, and this will be part of history, and they are very much on the wrong side of history, as they have been on other issues.

Kathryn Robb: Yeah. Every time I talk to the press, I always thank the reporters. Or, whoever it is in the press that I'm speaking with, because it is the power of the press that really amplifies the voices of those survivors who, are brave enough to come forward in the face of so much, retaliatory types of behaviors by these big, powerful institutions and perpetrators.

Christa Brown: Right. Yes, with the Southern Baptist Convention, were it not for secular journalists, uh, we would know almost nothing about the extent of their cover-up, their problems, their efforts to hold dominion and exercise authority. Um, but now, of course, having seen all this, I think there are many people who are realizing that this is an institution that holds no moral credibility.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah. I'm curious to know your assessment, Christa, and both of you are attorneys. So, Kathryn, I'm interested in your thoughts too, about how far are we along on that journey to people having the scales fall from their eyes and see who this incredibly huge and powerful institution really is, Christa.

Christa Brown: Well, I kind of view Southern Baptists here, and evangelicals, white evangelicals at large, as being about 20 years behind where the Catholics are. Which the really very low bar and so does not speak well, um, but in the broader society, I do think that people are seeing what is happening.

I mean, I remember in the early days of my advocacy work over and over endlessly. I would encounter people who would say, well, that's a Catholic problem and the ‘It's a Catholic problem’ narrative so dominated the media and everything. Um, even in the survivor community, we all thought we were just these isolated exceptions for a while. And that has changed and that's a good thing because I think now people do see, that it's here too with evangelicals. But I'm not optimistic that the Southern Baptist Convention will reform. I think they will wither and die sooner than they do that. 

Miranda Pacchiana: Do you have any thoughts about that on the legislative front, Kathryn?

Kathryn Robb: Well, it's the same thing. If we can pass legislation that reforms statute of limitations, because we all know it takes us and most survivors a long time to come forward very often, not within the statute of limitation period. If we can change those laws and brave survivors come forward and find their voice, they're not prohibited from entering the courtroom, identifying the perpetrator, the institution, the bad practices, the cover-up, and all that, we ultimately will bring them down, you know, and we will ultimately make children safer in doing so.

Really passing these laws is less about sort of a compensation financial number and more about holding them accountable. Uh, so they can, do the right things by children, proper training responses, policies, procedures. If we can do that, and I know I talked about this in another podcast, but really getting the insurance industry on the right side of history on this one, and having the insurance industry flex their muscle and hold these institutions accountable and whether it's audits every year, uh, and increased insurance premiums, or perhaps they're uninsurable, then they can't function. So, I do believe that there's power in the legislative institution and our legislative, Sector of the world but also some other institutions like insurance.

I think we've seen that with other things, whether it's car seats for children or cigarette smoking, you know, that all that kind of stuff that we do see, they eventually come around and do the right thing because it's really a win-win situation for them.

Christa Brown: I absolutely agree that it is that kind of outside pressure that can be brought from civil lawsuits, as well as from criminal prosecutions and media. Um, That eventually will bring change and I look forward to the day when we will see more statute of limitations reform. I think the trend is going that way. I hope you think so too.

Kathryn Robb: I 100 percent think so.

Miranda Pacchiana: She's making it happen.

Christa Brown: Exactly. And I look forward to the day when we will see more statute of limitations reform in states like Texas. where Southern Baptists are incredibly dominant. 

Kathryn Robb: Yeah, we will be working in Texas and Texas is a little funny because they have, a restriction in their constitution. That doesn't mean that we can’t amend that constitution in a very narrow amendment just for child sexual abuse claims. We certainly could. Texas is in our crosshairs.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah.

Christa Brown: Good.

Miranda Pacchiana: And Kathryn has really moved mountains. I was just telling her how, watching her just continues to give me hope in areas that it's sometimes hard to find hope. But I mean, you've recently had success in Louisiana and Pennsylvania that just seemed completely gridlocked

Kathryn Robb: And Maryland. Maryland as well. 

Miranda Pacchiana: Where I read the articles and I sort of feel like, oh, I guess it's a lost cause. And then here comes Kathryn again.

Kathryn Robb: It's not Kathryn. It's a whole, it's a whole team of wonderful people. It really is a team effort. And there's so many great advocates and supporters and great legislative leaders as well. You know, if we can educate them about the nature and extent of this problem, I think really good, strong leaders.

We'll do the right thing with the right information, the right truth, the truth. So I think there's a lot of hope there. And I do believe we have hope in Texas and Missouri and some other places. I'm sure as hell not giving up on children and survivors in those jurisdictions. Come hell or high water. Here I come. 

By the way, Colorado too, I think we will come back. I was an unfortunate defeat by one vote to amend the Constitution in Colorado. And it was. Just, unfortunate that it was a GOP just you know, they voted as a block and that was it. We couldn't even get someone who was, not going to be running the following year to do the right thing by children and survivors. But, like I said, we're not going away.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah, but it really is a bipartisan issue. And I think that that works in your favor too.

Kathryn Robb: Not in every jurisdiction, though. That's what's, you know, and, and what's so hard about this is that, you know, child abuse affects all children. No child is immune, regardless of their religious background, their cultural background, racial background. Uh, what party their parents are affiliated with, right?

 It just affects everyone. And Louisiana, heavy Republican state. They passed wonderful legislation. We just had the Supreme court there reverse, their ruling on the constitutionality of that, which is unheard of for them even to rehear. And then. Reverse their own decision, that is unheard of, like, less than 0.0001%. Does that ever happen? So I think some really good leaders and people are waking up to this issue and justice and, you know, even North Carolina, it was a heavy Republican state. We made some significant changes there. So.

Miranda Pacchiana: Well, you make a point that I think about a lot, Christa, in your book about how I think we all think that we are anti-child molestation. Of course, right? But when the issue comes up in your own world, you know, a lot of people turn away at best. turn a blind eye and even turn on the victim. So we have to really put our money where our mouth is and, live by the morals that we espouse.

Christa Brown: Well, I'm not holding out hope for Southern Baptists to do that.Um, but of course you're exactly right, because what we see is everyone,  everyone almost without fail says, well, if I knew someone was sexually abusing a child, I'd do something about it. If I knew a pastor had done such a thing, I would never let that pastor back in the pulpit again. My church is safe. Oh, I'm sure my church is good. This is what people invariably say, I think, because to believe otherwise about themselves would be untenable for them. Everyone says they are against child sex abuse, and yet, when those kinds of allegations hit on the home turf, the pattern that we see again and again and again is exactly that the institution does nothing, that people in leadership do nothing. If anything, they further shame and intimidate the victim, um, and this is what we see.

Miranda Pacchiana: It's by far the rule more than the exception from what I observe. And I think about my friend Kait Gannon who is one of the hosts of the podcast, The Ugly Truth About The Girl Next Door. She's a family and church child sex trafficking survivor. She's an incredible advocate and she says to this day, you know, she comes from a fairly small community in Western New York where she still lives, that people say, ‘I believe something happened to Kait. I believe someone did something to her, but it can't be that guy because he's my neighbor. I know him. He's nice. He's a, you know, he's a good teacher’ or whatever it is. And I think that also speaks to our unwillingness, even if it's subconscious, to believe that we can't trust our own instincts about people.

Christa Brown: Right. And in faith communities, people have invested in their pastors. They are the ones who have put him into a position of power. And this is often a person who has been with them in their most difficult moment who has visited them in the hospital, who has conducted their funerals, who has also conducted their weddings and to then take into themselves and absorb that, Oh my gosh, we put all this trust into this person who sexually abused children. They don't want to see that about themselves. It's not just not seeing it about the pastor or the priest. It's not seeing it about, Oh, who did we trust?

Miranda Pacchiana: And we should listen to our instincts, but also there are a lot of people that get past our instincts. There are people who get past my radar. 

Christa Brown: Of course, they're very, very good at it. They're extremely manipulative. Yeah.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah, exactly. So, I think we're just getting close to wrapping up, but I think one of the questions that just came into my head today, Christa, was, how was it for you to write the memoir, the process of writing it and putting it out? Tell us about that.

Christa Brown: Well, it was a long process. I worked on it a long time, off and on, not continuously. Um, a painful process, much of the time. But I did think that It was something that I really wanted to put out there, you know, one of the reasons I talked so much about my family in the book is because, with so many other survivors, I've listened to these stories over the years, and so many survivors have these kinds of experiences of familial estrangement when they begin to speak.

And yet, even in the survivor community, I think this is an aspect in this whole dynamic that very few of us talk about precisely because it is so painful. Um, and so I felt it was important to talk about that. And that was part of why I wanted to do it. So I'm glad to have it out there, and I appreciate everyone who reads it, that's the reason I wrote it.

Miranda Pacchiana: Well, you really did examine it closely and I imagine it was vulnerable for you and it must have been painful to do that too, but it is such an important service because I, for one, I'm in that position and I work with lots of people who are in that position. And the research tells us that most people have at least one estranged family member. And yet it becomes stigmatizing and taboo to talk about it. And you know, you get funny looks from people, ‘but, but that's family’.

Christa Brown: You know, I did feel that writing this, it was, it does feel very raw and vulnerable to have it out there because it is a deeply personal and exposed sort of story, evidenced by what we put on the cover of the book, which is essentially my own skin, with a tattoo there on the cover. And I think that kind of sends a message of, I put some skin into this. Yeah.

Kathryn Robb: Yeah

Miranda Pacchiana: Wow. You really did. And, I just want to thank you for that because it means a lot whenever someone is willing to be that honest and real about their experiences, because so many of us relate to so many aspects of it.

Christa Brown: Thanks. I appreciate you.

Miranda Pacchiana: Is there anything else that either of you want to chime in and say before we wrap up? 

Kathryn Robb: I just want to touch on, we were just talking about Lacy and how it's not a problem into the survivor speaks right because everything is kind of status quo because you know it's hidden, no one knows we're not rocking the boat, and I feel like that is another part of the power that tries to shut what we know, not I feel I know, and we all know that that's part of it. I just wonder. Christa, how you experienced that in terms of, feeling like, I don't know how to say this, but, that it wasn't really a problem until you talked about the problem, right?

And then, therefore, you are the problem, not the real problem? And I just wondered how that was for you. I know we talked about it a little bit when we were talking earlier about Lacy, but that whole dynamic is fascinating to me.

Christa Brown: Yeah. Even in my childhood. There came a point in time, this was after, he had gone on for months and then toward the tail end, he became even more, um, authoritarian and abusive, of course, abuse typically does escalate. And, then when he began saying that I had harbored Satan and was a Jezebel and a temptress. I began to just, as a kid, to just psychologically break down. And there came a point then, and at a piano lesson, when I just could not function. And my piano teacher was the church's music minister, and I had my lessons in the church sanctuary, on the baby grand in the church sanctuary. I could not function.

And at that point in time, I told the music minister, my piano teacher, That I had an affair with the youth pastor. And I asked, I mean, my concern was, am I going to hell? That was what I was terrified of. Am I going to hell? He told me to never speak of it again. But what I learned decades later was that that was not the first he knew of it.

He knew about what the youth pastor was doing to me because the youth pastor himself had talked with him about it. And so the music minister had simply told the youth pastor, well, don't do that anymore, but had done absolutely nothing more, allowing the abuse to escalate. But even knowing about it, it wasn't a problem then until later when I broke down at the music lesson and, and told.

That was what they then decided they couldn't control that. If Christa's going to talk, we can't control this. And then it was after that that he moved on to another church. But the realization that he knew before that it wasn't the abuse that was the problem. It was my talking.

Kathryn Robb: Talking. Right.

Christa Brown: Yeah. 

Miranda Pacchiana: Well, you’re still talking and I don't think you're gonna stop. And, uh, I really appreciate that. And we're behind you every step of the way. Christa, you pop up on the top of my Twitter feed every day. So, I am following your work and I will continue to do so, and I'm so grateful that you shared more about it today with us. Thank you.

Christa Brown: Thanks. And thanks to both of you for having me. It's been a great conversation. I really appreciate it.

Miranda Pacchiana: Thank you. And no evil forces are able to keep you away from us.

Kathryn Robb: And Christa, if you ever need my help with anything, just let me know.

Christa Brown: Oh, thank you, Kathryn.

Kathryn Robb: Yeah. And anything, anything that you're working on, I'm always here to support.

Christa Brown: Thanks.

Miranda Pacchiana: Yeah. We're building a coalition here through the podcast. I'm not actually kidding. Um, okay. Well, you both have wonderful days and keep up your incredible work. Thank you so much.

Christa Brown: You too. Thanks so much. Bye bye.

Kathryn Robb: Bye.

Miranda Pacchiana: Thank YOU for listening!

So now for a bit more explanation about wrapping up the podcast. As I’ve mentioned before, the amount of time and effort that goes into each episode is substantial, probably more than you would imagine. Editing alone takes me 5-6 hours, even with the new AI program I started using this year. When you add in script writing, voice-overs, creating graphics, and promoting it on social media, it takes up a big chunk of my time. The whole endeavor costs money too, but I will continue to pay for the platform that hosts the podcasts so it will still be available.

I am not closing the door to the podcast permanently. I may decide to start it up again at some point, or even to come back for a one-off now and then so don’t necessarily delete it from your podcast app. And, I hope you will continue to listen, enjoy, and find benefit from back episodes if you haven’t already. 

Of course, I am enormously grateful and proud of what Kathryn and I have built here, and I am well aware how fortunate we are to have such esteemed, intelligent, and enjoyable guests. And yet, the process has come to feel more and more stressful, which is my signal that it’s time to leave more space for other endeavors and to enjoy this full and busy life I’ve built.

I so appreciate all the listeners who made this happen with me and Kathryn. Your feedback and reviews and just the fact that you gave our little grassroots podcast a try means the world to me. So thank you. 

And thank you to all my guests over these 47 episodes for offering your time, wisdom, experience, and vulnerability. You cannot possibly know how much you have benefited the many people who gained comfort and strength from your words. Several of our guests have turned into friends and colleagues with whom we keep in touch, which has been a source of joy and satisfaction. We’ve even made connections between guests so they can potentially collaborate and support each other’s work. 

Maddie Morris deserves a special shout out for putting her talents to work creating our unique and beautiful theme song (produced by Pete Ord of Haystack Records), which you can hear in its entirety at the end of each episode. 

Of course, I am hugely grateful to Kathryn for joining me on this adventure. It all started the first time I interviewed her on the podcast about her legislative reform work and her history as a sexual abuse survivor. That episode was the first time we talked and it launched a friendship and a sisterhood that we both cherish to this day. 

Last but definitely not least, I have so much gratitude for my husband Adam. He is the wizard behind the scenes who cheerfully puts together every episode and prepares it for release which is no small task. He is also my biggest cheerleader and my loving partner in most things, which is why I thank him for a different reason at the very end of each episode.    

Speaking of which…Thank you, Adam, for all the technical support these past five years and for encouraging me every step of the way, through late nights and last-minute fixes to interview jitters and crises of confidence. You have a way of helping me feel better about myself simply by demonstrating how you see me. I look forward to having more time to help with our family business which you have shepherded so admirably and with a level of integrity and conscientiousness that makes me extremely proud and grateful for all your contributions to our family. Thank you. And to everyone else, always remember, your truth matters.

Check out the Truth and Consequences website to find all our episodes, photos, and show notes, that’s truth, the letter n, consequences.com. If you are interested in my coaching services or information and support about the aftermath of sexual abuse and assault, visit my website secondwound.com where you can also sign up for my blog. Please support the podcast with a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends! And follow Truth & Consequences and The Second Wound on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter for updates on episodes and past guests. Thank you for listening!