I spoke with Jim Masterson on Oct 22, 2020 and we spoke about doing the next thing and how stopping can both be intuition. We also spoke about how he was just lead to do the next thing and the next thing and by not getting in the way his curiosity and willingness has taken him from being a groom to a teacher of teachers of his own method of helping horses release tension and pain that is around the world. I see a huge correlation between his processes and how we all can bring more insight and be lead if we just Doubt the Doubt and How Stopping Getting Out of the Way and Doing Nothing can be intuition.
In 1998, while Jim was grooming horses on the U.S. hunter-jumper show circuit, he noticed while watching physical therapists work on horses that the horse exhibited certain subtle changes in behavior that correlated to what the therapists were doing. He learned that if you trust and follow what the horse is telling you as you work on it, the horse’s body will participate in the process of releasing tension. The result is not only an improvement in performance, but also in the trust that develops between the horse and human.
From 2004 to 2013 Jim worked on top equine competitors on the US hunter-jumper circuit in events such as the USEF and Maclay Medal series, and FEI Grand Prix, Nations Cup, Pan American and World Cup jumping events, and with members of the USEF Singles Driving Team.
In 2006, Jim was invited to accompany the U.S. Endurance Team to the FEI World Equestrian Games in Aachen, Germany. Team member Jennifer Niehaus said afterward, “Of all the things that were done for my horse Cheyenne, the bodywork Jim did was the most beneficial. He has truly never moved as nicely as he did in Germany.”
In 2008 Jim was again asked to accompany the Team to the FEI World Endurance Championships in Malaysia. Team member Meg Sleeper, DVM; “It is impossible to overestimate Jim’s ability to keep performance horses working at their peak level. Simply put, he is like having a secret weapon.”
He continued to accompany the team to the 2010 WEG in Lexington, the 2012 World Championships in England, and the 2014 WEG in Normandy, France.
Since 2006, over 4,000 horse owners have attended Masterson Method Weekend Seminar-Workshops, and he has trained over 330 Masterson Method Certified Practitioners in 20 countries.
His book and DVD, Beyond Horse Massage, has sold over 50,000 copies and been translated into six languages. It is the No. 1 seller in the equine veterinary category on Amazon.
Jim and his team of instructors continue to travel the world teaching horse owners, trainers and therapists The Masterson Method. His goal is to have every horse on the planet have experienced the Bladder Meridian Technique at least once.
and follow us on youtube and Facebook under the Masterson Method
Welcome to See'rs Be-ers, Knowers, and Doers, a podcast about intuition. Do you know what that is? Intuition to me, is that inner sense for knowing that something is true and yet I have no proof, but there's so many definitions and there's so many ways it can come and we'll even to bring together and share with you some amazing guests, you have some amazing life stories and also some insights into how intuition can come. And I'm looking to gather those crows in the trees. I hope you're one of them. I hope that this podcast inspires you to be more connected to your intuition. And I hope that by doing that, we make the world a better place. Thanks for coming on this journey with me Before we get started today, I would love to share some tools with you to help with stress and feeling overwhelmed, especially for the energetically sensitive person. Feel free to go to my store on my website at www dot healing, vitality.ca. Thanks so much for coming on this journey with me. So today I'm super excited because one of my horse people that I stumbled across that I'm so enamored with his work is said yes to my podcast. And I'm so grateful for that. Thank you so much, Jim, for joining me today. You're welcome. So Jim's Masterson method has been something that just popped on my radar intuitively and I connected with it because of the urinary bladder channel, which is acupuncture related. And when I saw the horses responding on YouTube, I was like, Oh my gosh, I got to go try this. So Jim, can you share with us a little bit more about yourself so that people can connect with you and, and get an understanding of who you are and what you do?JIm :
Sure. And I tend to kind of go on and on sometimes. So you're welcome to stop me at any point, ask questions or tell me to slow down or whatever, but once I get rolling anyways, so I can talk about how I got started doing this and what it is, Masterson method it's a method of equine bodywork, where we learn to read and follow what I call responses from the horse. They're a bit they're visual, subtle changes in behavior in the horse's behavior while we're doing the bodywork. And we learned to read and follow those and to help them release tension in the body. So the horse is actually communicating to us with subtle changes in body language, and that's how, uh, that's how it starts. And it turns out that when you read and follow what the horse is telling is that you end up working with the horse's nervous system to enable it to release tension. And the tension that it's releasing is action, that you're finding is actually much deeper than just, you know, surface muscle tension, or muscle tension. They end up with their nervous system. You're working with their nervous system to release postural, tension and core muscle tension, as well as overall tension in the body. Hence how I came about doing or finding it, I was grooming Hunter jumpers on the show circuit for a show barn and we traveled, uh, you know, around quite a bit. Uh, we were based here in Iowa, but we showed him in the Midwest in St. Louis and we showed. We, and then we started going East showing him Lexington showing and, uh, ended up down in Florida in Ocala and Wellington on the hunter jumper circuit there in the winter, but I was never interested in doing any type of equine therapy or bodywork or, you know, the only, my only experience with massage was getting massages myself or going to the chiropractor. But I noticed that when the other, our trainer and other trainers used equine massage therapists or, or equine chiropractors and equine acupuncture is, uh, you know, there was a lot of acupuncture used on horse, on performance horses. But I noticed when they were working on horses, these subtle changes in the horses behavior while they were working, like, you know, eye might twitch or for the lips might Twitch, or there might be a change in breathing. And the horse, I noticed the horse was feeling something and they were, that was their response to what they were feeling. And so I started kind of experimenting with it and it developed into this method body work that is super effective. That's interactive with the horse and can that people wanted to learn. So I, for nine years I worked on mainly a hundred jumpers, but everything else in between and started teaching it after a few years because people want it to learn doing, I did weekend seminars and then it grew, and I did a book and a DVD Beyond Horse Massage. And now it's just, I'm trying to, I'm in the kind of teaching business now. So that's kind of in a nutshell how it got startedHeather:
Well, and I've done a little bit of it myself, because that's what you encourage people to do. And, and it's just fascinating to me how that interaction of noticing is so it's so good for the horse, but it's so good for me to remain present with the horse and to it's, it's almost like an automatic feedback loop. Like you get this positive feedback that they've shifted or received some sort of relief. And so you want to do more. And so it's, it's, it's very addictive.JIm :
It is, it is addictive. And it's interesting that way, because you start out by, by, uh, following the, you know, really paying attention to what the horse is doing with its body as you're working on it. But that that's really settled your mind. You stopped thinking you just tuned in watching the horse. It's not, you know, it's not a huge cosmic experience just makes you very, very present. And then, uh, what happens is eventually you use your, your intuition starts to kick in because you are just quietly down. It's almost like enforced meditation, but you end up quiet and you quite advanced so much that it's pretty soon. You're just, you're, you're following the horse of responses on this point. They're responding, but you don't try to do that. And you just end up going to the place on the horse where it's holding tension. You know, you feel, you know, when I go to work on a horse, I'll walk into the stall or wherever I am with the horse. And I won't do anything. I'll just stand there with the horse for a little bit, and usually chat with the owner and, you know, talk about what's going on with the horse. But in that process, the we're settled down because you're not, you're not focused on the horse. You're just chatting with the owners and you don't have any agenda. You don't want, if you had an agenda, when you're working on the horse with this method, the horse picks up on it. And then they, they, uh, it interferes with the process. So, but after standing quietly with a horse, maybe chatting with the owner and just kind of looking at the horse and big picture, pretty soon, you might just go to where the horse tells you it has tension. So, um, it's interesting that just by doing something that's physical, you know, looking for at visual cues, you end up, it ends up being a little bit bigger and more than that. And people liked that interaction with the horse and the other cool thing that is once the horse gets that you're getting what it's telling you during the bodywork, it starts to naturally trust you more because you're reading it. And you're that we miss so much on that horse. Cause they're so, they're so subtle. I mean, they're huge, powerful creatures when they, you know, in an instant they can just explode and take off, but they're, they've survived by being really tuned into their environment. And so we miss a lot when we're working with horses. And when you do this type of bodywork, that brings that back to you. It kind of opens up that another level of communication with the horse.Heather:
For Sure. And that, that subtlety kind of opens. I find it, it helps me be more observant in life in general. And when the person who owns the barn that I work at, he's like, so what are you actually doing? Cause he's seen the horse respond and I'm like, I'm not really doing anything. Like it's not a lot of work or Yeah. I'm not really doing anything it's not about doing it's about being more. And so that feeling to transmit that to him was kind of like, I was like here, try it like, and he was just kind of like I'm used to doing, I think, and feeling, but not being per se, but he doesn't think of himself as, as, uh, I, I know he's very present. Um, but he doesn't think of that as a state to be with the horse in, to just release tension. But now I've got, I'm releasing the pole and all sorts of things. So it's kind of neat that automatic Feedback system he's like back work. So I'm like, yeah, I know.JIm :
Yeah. It is pretty amazing. You know, we get emails all the time from people that just went on our YouTube channel and then the bladder brilliant technique, which is where, you know, I mean, if you can't do that, you, you need help. You know, you can't do the bladder Meridian technique because was the piece of him, um, there's something wrong, but anyway, it's so simple and they, and they've had problems with their horses for years and they can't figure out what it is, but that can't find anything. And it could, and their nervous systems holding onto this tension from whatever it was, that caused it, whether it was an incident or what it was just finally shutting down or whether it was physical overexertion, whatever it is, the horse nurses and holding onto it. And, and that they'll do the bladder meridian on the horse. And then all of a sudden there, they have a change towards, so it's just by allowing the horses nervous system to let it go. And when I started doing this, I realized early on that there's a part of the horse's nervous system that holds on to tension. That's that blocks out pain and discomfort. Then that's how they survived. They survived by blocking out pain. They really don't have a choice in the wild. If they start limping right away, then they're their target. So they're just wired to just go on. And that's why it's so hard to diagnose lameness on a horse sometimes. And, um, and th there's another part of the nervous system that lets it go if you do it, if you do it right, if you, if you keep the horse's attention or awareness on something that has been blocking out and you do it in a way that they can't brace against it because they also survived by bracing against it. So that's part of that. But if you can keep the horses awareness on it, you find it by not putting pressure, you search for those responses using no pressure. And if you just stay there and do nothing and keep the horse's attention on it in a way that can't block, block it out, then there, the other part of the nervous system will kick in and start to release it. And so, as I learned more, learn that, you know, they're like us, they have the sympathetic, you know, their autonomous nervous system is closed. The sympathetic and parasympathetic. The sympathetic is the fight flight freeze response. And that's what they have a certain level of that sympathetic that's that's blocking out the tension because they don't want to be vulnerable. And, you know, as a prey. And then the other part that releases that is it's the parasympathetic. So you're working with the horse's nervous system to allow it to release the tension. And, um, I'll keep going if you want, you can stop me when I first yeah, go ahead.Heather:
Well, what I fascinates me is because there's that parallel with us. I think the human almost gets as much release of tension as the horse does in doing this is up. Is that true? Is that possible? Because the, not necessarily in the same way, but just by being present, we release tension, I think.JIm :
Well, yeah, anytime your, your, your nervous system settled down to that certain level and then your body starts to release stress. Um, yeah, I think it works better with the horse. It's more effective than a horse because like you can do the Bladder Meridian on a person and just do that. What I call the bladder Meridian techniques that we do with horses, you can do it on a person, and you're not going to, it's not as easy. You're not gonna see the same responses to blinks. Then we can choose twitching. You're not going to see it because our brain is in the way we have that part of the brain that analyzes everything. And so the horse doesn't have that. It's a direct connection when you apply it, when they feel something you see happen. And then she used to keep their attention on it in a way that's comfortable for them. They'll release it. But humans where we're really attached to our stuff, you know, we have we're invested in it and we don't let it go as easily. So, um, yeah. So that's why it works so well with horses. Yeah.Heather:
Well, and you've also used us with other animals too, right. Is what my understanding.JIm :
Yeah. I can't even pet my dogs without doing this with them, whether it's the, so, you know, the bladder light techniques, like the bladder murdering and our Lebanon's the movement techniques and involve movement. I, I just can't touch my dogs without paying attention to what they're, what they're feeling as I do it. And it works. It's the same as not just because it's a prey or predator animal, you know, dogs are prey, dogs are predator, but they're also prey and horses are mostly paid, but they're, they can be aggressive, you know, and they can be, they can defend themselves. So they're similar, you know, they're paying him predator, but they have similar nervous systems. So, um, it works on dog too. It's a little different, you know, dogs get a little more nervous when you, when they start to feel something you bring up when they feel it gets uncomfortable, sometimes horses and dogs. So they'll fidget. So dogs a little bit more sometimes in horses because they are, I think programmed to do more and horses are wired to do less well or to just be aware of their environment, not to attack it so much. And this is all just, I'm just making this up. You know, I'm not a scientist, I'm just putting two and two together, but I see it might make sense. It might not make sense. So, um,Heather:
And that to me is the beauty is that it's coming from such a pure place of observation without an agenda. Like you're just talking about what you've seen over and over and over again as cause and effect almost so that, to me, it almost holds more weight in, in my intuitive world because there is no agenda behind it. You're just A plus B is C. We'll see, like I think, right. Yeah,JIm :
Yeah, yeah. Or when I first started teaching this, there was a guy, uh, in California. He's good. He's a friend of mine now, but he was a neurological psychologist by training, but he worked with rehab and race horses. And, uh, he, he said something that, what he really liked about it was, it was a, it was such an empirical approach. Meaning it have to do with the tendencies. You don't start with a theory and then work towards the theory to prove it or disprove it. It's all, it's all through the senses. You know, that kind of clicked with me that, you know, there's some value in that.Heather:
Oh, for sure. Yeah. So throughout your videos, you will, you will say, you know, there is no pattern that you should do this and just follow your intuition. And, and it's, I would say less stereotypical for a man to be using those words, but it is very real that just as we all have this intuition, like it's just men won't necessarily stereotypically use those words. Um, it'll be their gut instinct or they're a doer, or they just do the right next thing or whatever the case may be. And I think you are doing the next thing, but to encourage that intuition, I think it have the awareness that it's piece of this puzzle is, is wonderful to me. So how does your intuition come to you.JIm :
A little bit about, you have to have a starting point with this, you know, so, you know, that's what we teach and when we work on a horse and the, and like the first step is a weekend workshop, and those are techniques that we practice and teach that that are, that are in the beyond horse massage people can DVD, but then on a weekend to get hands-on and help with them. But so there is a starting point and there's a, you know, there are probably 20 or 23 techniques in that book and on weekend. And so you pick a starting point and you go, you start there. But then from there, you're not locked into it. You kind of, um, you have a step-by-step, you know, this is where you're, this is how you do this technique and then do this technique and then do this technique. But after you learn the technique, you, you don't follow that program. You start as a starting point. And then usually from our experience, the best place to start is the poll. And that way, if the horses way to defensive about the fall and that you, when you started the other end, but you have a starting point, but after you learn the technique after you didn't know something on a horse, you do some lateral flection on the neck. So it was not the vertebra, the neck, you step back and see what the horse has to say. And if he's release tension, often he'll start from lick and chew or start to yarn repeatedly. And so then if something pops into your head going into the scapular, you go do the scapula. It's not like, uh, you know, a light shines down on you and you'll get a revelation. That's starts, Oh, I'm going to go do this now. And you end up going to go there and you got up. That was the best thing to do. You know, if you're not analyzing it like, Oh, well, this muscle is attached to that muscle and this, so I'm better to go there because that makes logical sense. You don't, it just kind of happens. It just pops into your head. Well, I think I should do this now. And, um, that's, that's a part that sometimes takes people a little time to get used to. Um, so that's how it shows up, you know, and it just happens organically. Uh there's the, the, that part, you know, the, that we're calling intuition cause to me, intuition is, you know, one definition from this perspective might be that when it's something that you're, that you're seeing, that you don't you're don't know your seeing because your brain is not in the way, you know, so that then you end up going there. So that's, that's the funny part about this. You don't have to like, is that most guys they're not, they don't talk about following their intuition. And I didn't when I started it just started happening, Oh, I'm going to go here now. Or I would just stand and look at the horse and my attention would be drawn to maybe the areas behind the withers on one side just would be drawn there. And so I would go there and start working on the horse and sure. That's yeah, there's something going on there. So it just happened organically just by following what I have as, you know, the steps that I had laid out to do the work on the horse, but then I would had to be open to be deviating from that.Heather:
Cool. And it's so neat that, you know, you're, you're helping others to connect with that aspect of themselves and the horse is the venue for it because they want to help their horse. But, but it's going to blossom beyond the horse I would expect in people's lives.JIm :
Yeah. Well, what we found was, uh, you know, people were starting to use this and, and, uh, therapy, you know, uh, psychotherapy and mental health field, especially with, uh, you know, equine-assisted therapies. I mean, find assisted learning that, um, people were using the bladder Meridian Pepsi to work with their clients because it did make them bright. You know, it had that, that effect of, um, making them present and, and conscious that, you know, whatever the benefits were. But it was interesting because one of our instructors was doing a weekend seminar at a facility for at-risk girls, and it was a horse. They had a horse ranch, and then they had that. It was, uh, an in resonance with others. And so she, she just did a weekend seminar with them to show them these techniques so they could take, you know, help their horses. And she thought it was a little rough at first because these girls were a little rough, you know, and they weren't really into it by the end of the week. And they were just, you know, completely intuitive. And I think later that week, somebody from the therapy side called over to the, the barn side, said something happened that a couple of girls had breakthroughs. They wanted to know what they were doing. So what did, what did you do over there? So that kind of our attention. So we have a program that, where we train, we train people to use this in that setting. It's a three day things that teach people how to use the bladder Meridian on the horses, in that setting. That's the thing is you can't make it about the person it's got be about the horse. It's, it's about helping the horse. So it has that added benefit of you can take somebody who's in a program, you're getting all this therapy and getting off at the pension. And all of a sudden you have the opportunity to, uh, you give them the opportunity to help the horse, right. And that's where the value comes in.Heather:
And it's so true when we shift our focus away from ourselves and get out of our head. That's where magic happens a lot of the time.JIm :
Yeah. You know, there's a saying, you can't solve the problem on the level of the problem. You have to solve it from on the level and another level, you know? So that's what this does.Heather:
How did you go from just working hands-on with horses individually to, to expanding into the business that you are now? Like, was there, was it just doing the next thing or,JIm :
Yeah, just doing the next thing, you know, I started out, you know, grooming the, we were at a horse show that the trainer hires these to get them to come in and do them and massage the horses. And they started by running their hand really lightly down the bladder Meridian, which basically follows the compliment of the horse and down the highlights. And it was to relax the horse and it worked. But I noticed when they were doing that, that the horse, every once in a while, they'll go running their finger off, anybody can go on our, on YouTube and look up, you know, masters and that's the bladder Meridian technique. And there you'll find videos. We probably have 20 or so videos on there teaching people how to do things. That's bladder meridian techniques. So the data to just, you take your, run your fingers very slowly down that line, anywhere in that line, you don't have to be on that same spot and you watch the horse's eye And as you, if you go over a spot where the horse is feeling something that it'll blink or lips might Twitch, there'll be some subtle change in the hastens, and you're not putting any pressure on it. It's what I call an air gap. Just barely touching the hair when they did the bladder meridian And I noticed those blinks on the horse. So I tried it, my like go down the line and I, I got a blink since I, I would just stop and do nothing to stay there, to see what happened next, because I wasn't trained to do anything like massage it. And, um, I'm, I'm naturally lazy. So I can just wait there and do nothing for a few minutes to see what happened. And often I found what happened with the horse and start to drop his head and I can chew, which is a sign of relaxation. And so it helped to be uneducated lazy. So there's hope for everything. The other part that connected that is also, there was an old horse chiropractors in New Zealand. We used to really well-known that the practice on the East coast that worked on the tire jumpers used to bring them out from California to do adjustments on the horses. And he'd been doing it for 40 years. And he learned from another old horse chiropractor in New Zealand that they don't have for 40 years and used very forceful techniques, but he, he got incredible results. And he, he would do after you did an adjustment, if you had stepped back to see what the horse had to say, and if you've got a good adjustment, the horse would often drop his head and just start yawning over or snorty. So that stepping back and just giving the horse a chance to deal with what happened. And then he could tell if it relieves tension by doing that, that's what really got my attention because I wanted to do what he was doing. And then we were at another show and with doing the bladder meridian and I would just wait and see what the horse would do. And often the horses go up to 10 and start yawning just from me, keeping its attention on where the problem, where the tension was. And then it would release it and start yawning. So there was a connection there. And so that's what really got me hooked on this. And I started it just experimenting with it. And rather than doing adjustments that use a lot of force and movement, I, I learned that for example, going down the vertebrae of the neck, rather than doing a big adjustment on the neck, which you got to really know what you're doing. Rather than that, I found that if I just ran my hand, gently down the vertebrae, wiggled the nose along the way and stop at the interval you gave the horse. It's often my hand gave the horse a chance to let the tension go, that I could get similar results. The horses start yawning. And all of sudden that part of the next that wasn't moving, all of a sudden it moved. So there are movement techniques, and there are the very light techniques. Then the movement techniques, the principle there is if you move a joint or junction or a muscle through a range of motion in a relaxed state, the nervous system release tension in it, maybe not all but some depending on what's causing or if there's been any dash. So I was getting similar or during similar things that the chiropractor was doing just by doing gentle movement and softening movements off. And so it evolved into this method where there are techniques that go through the horses that Poll and Atlas through it's next to its shoulder, whether there's next children, whether there's junction hind end. That said, really, I think her lumbar junction, the vertebra of the back and using the movement techniques. And then they're also very light techniques where you're just focusing on areas where the horse is giving you several responses, but they all involve staying underneath the horses, natural survival bracing response, whether it's movement or not. Right. And so that's how this kind of came about. And I forgot what your question,Heather:
I'm assuming that intuition shows up for you outside of horses.JIm :
Well, I don't know if it's harder to identify because, uh, outside of courses, but you know, you, you do start to settle down a little bit of not react as much when you do. I have over time not to react as much to give things time, to see what happens and give things time to work themselves out. Sometimes it's, it's trickier from out in the real world, because there's so much going on, you know, the con settled out, follow your intuition because sometimes you don't know like this, an emotional reaction to something, or is what's the state's done, you know, what you're feeling, maybe in your gut. And so, but it does help to be able to take a deep breath and just let things settle for it. That can make a decision or do something. So I don't know the answer to that one. I would say, you know what I'm saying?Heather:
You just answered the question because I think sometimes taking that you are off the hook. I think sometimes taking a break and pausing, it's like walking away from the puzzle and you see the puzzle piece that you couldn't see for hours as you stared at the puzzle pieces. I think sometimes that ability to stop and pause is when you do get your brain and emotion out of the way to know, to do the next thing or to just do the next thing. So I think you did answer the question.JIm :
Yeah. Yeah. It's easier to, to, to just stop and pause and see what happens and then move forward, you know, like, you know, you can't remember something, you know, it's on the tip of your time. It's right there, but you can't earn that. If you keep trying to remember it, then it's frustrating because half the time you can't remember it. But as soon as I stop thinking about it, it's probably gonna pop into my head. And as soon as I really stopped thinking about it, move on to the next thing. A lot of times that pops into your head. So you start to trust that a little more. And so you allow it to happen more often. Perfect. This might be, this might be intuition from a guy's point of view.Heather:
Exactly. I think so, because you know, us, us women, we, we analyze all the different ways that can show up. And, and that also gets in the way and it's limiting because, you know, we assume that, well, I got goosebumps or I got this feeling shiver up my back, or I felt I heard the words, you know, or whatever the case may be. And it doesn't have to show up like that. It can simply be the pause, like you say, and then just doing the next thing or doing the next thing to get your brain out of the way to allow yourself to get the right information. So I think that you've given a really good clue because part of what this podcast is about is, is shining a light on all the different ways that can come and pausing is another way it can come.JIm :
Yeah. And just trust it...doubt the doubt. You know, I feel like when you're working with the horse, should I stay here or should I do this? Or is that, you know, a lot of people, they just can't believe it's working, you know? Cause it doesn't compute and no, they just have to let go of that. And like let go doubt, I call it doubt the doubt. And, uh, it's interesting. You learn a lot about people when you're teaching people this with horses or maybe anything, you know, the way people learn, the way they process are so different. And everybody's so different. Some people are very linear thinkers and it takes them a while to really let go of that, need to know why it's happening and what to do now, you know, and just do it again, do what you're told and then see what happens, you know,Heather:
Fair enough. And you know what I think, I think there's some, uh, different people have different belief system as to where intuition comes from. And I, and I think of, you know, whoever or whatever it comes from is probably sitting there saying the exact same words. You just did doubt the doubt and just do what you're told.JIm :
So this, I went from working on horses and then I started doing weekend seminars and I'd be at a video, um, and then did a book, but I was still working on horses and teaching weekends when I was in. And then it got bigger to where I, I couldn't teach all the seminars. So I started training people to teach the seminars. And then also early on other therapists, you know, massage therapists are there. Other types of modalities would come to do a weekend. And they wanted to know if there was a what's next, you know, can I get certified in it? So I developed a certification program that the advanced course, and then I ended up picking people to be instructors from that. So now it's gone from working on horses, to being in the teaching business, to being in the, keeping the teachers teaching business. But when I would be teaching probably 90% of the people that come to learn, this are women, you know, horse people, and also people that aren't, I mean, you come to the weekend seminar just because you want to be with horses, but anyways, ninety percent are women, but the men are always the easiest to teach because I would demo the technique and they might ask a question or two, everybody goes in practices. I come around and I have assistants that go around and we'll work with people individually and the guy would do it. And then they come back, g o, okay, now what, you know, t here wasn't, they wouldn't question stuff. Whereas women, they want to know the why and the how and where they s hare they were doing it. Right. A nd i t can hurt the horse. And t he guys were like, c avemen, you know? Oh n o, what t he, okay, I'll show you the next thing. S o i t was, that was a big, u m, kind of eye-opener for me t oo. And I'm not saying e verybody was like that, but it was, the men would just, they would get it or not get. Y eah. Usually the men that came that were attracted to this, they, they got i t once they l earned to soften a little bit and t hen, y ou k now, physically soften, m aybe they were really good at it because it is about what was going on. So, u h, that's kind of cool women that just get it just like that too. And they just move on to the next thing and t he others that they just, they want to know w hy. And they'll say, you know, w hy? L ike, how's it working? And I h ad, I had to fess up, I don't know, it's working, let's go do it,Heather:
Go do it exactly. Well, and that's like, should be another bumper sticker, like Nike. Right. SoJIm :
Yeah, just do it. Or in this case might be just, don't do it.Heather:
Do it just, yeah. Don't the doubt. And go do what you're told to do. LikeJIm :
That's the thing. If you pull in with an agenda, then the horse is going to pick up on the agenda and the brain and their natural racing sponsors response is going to come up. They're going to block it out. If you're anxious about it, then the horse picks up on it. And it's just their natural thing to block that out. And it's interesting because I have, for a long, long time, I had a hard time working on my own horses because I have an agenda with them. I don't even know I have an agenda with them, but they were telling me I had an agenda with them. Like they both have them complete, so are to read them. And when I go to do techniques that involve the movement, they would race against it because I thought I knew that that's an agenda. I thought I knew what they needed. I knew they're supposed to do what I say. And then they would pick up on that. And it took me a long time, years, and years and years to let go of that on a, on a really subtle level level. And the coolest thing is if they're not responding, then I've got an agenda. So they could tell me, I had an agenda.Heather:
They're the ultimate authentication validation, truth seeker kind of radar. Like you can't pull anything over on a horse. And it's like, and to me, I see this entire thing is an analogy for life. Because if we show up with life with an agenda, it knows, And It'll call us out on it. It'll put up, it'll be like, whose agenda are you working? You're not working the agenda. You're working your agenda. And you'll get into car accidents. You'll get into, you know, stubbornness at work or drama or whatever the case may be. And so this whole podcast has been delightful because I think it can relate to other people who aren't in the horse industry. If they, if they choose to see the message or hear the message. Yeah.JIm :
Yeah. Mark, Mark Rashad is a horse trainer and I work with him a lot. We do these collaborative, independent clinics because he's very soft with the horse. And he's very much about working with the horse, not even to the point of, he won't use pressure on the horse. Well, sometimes you have to use pressure, but, but the way to train a horse so that are really learned is to use its curiosity, not to use pressure. And then when the horse yield to the pressure, you take the pressure off. So the horse just learn to do what you wanted, but the horse didn't really learn. The horse. Just learned that when it did this, the pressure is off rather than the horse actually. So he uses the analogy of learning to, you know, to add. So you ask the child, what's, what's two plus two and they say three, and you say, no, what's two plus two. They say five mil, but this goes to, but no, let's do plus two, four. Yeah. Well they just didn't learn the app. They just learned the right answer. So you can train a horse to do learn the right to do what the right answers, but they didn't really learn. And so this subtle difference there. And so he was attracted to this type of audience because of the way he looked at courses. And it's a subtle difference in the week between getting the horse to release tension on its own. And you actually mechanically getting the horse to release tension by animal causes, muscle fibers. Massages is good. I'm not saying it's not good, but when you do get the horse's nervous system to release the tension, it's much deeper and longer lasting move and check. But I think what was the reason that I brought this up, just because there's a documentary out young film maker in LA, um, made a documentary about our clinic together, we're training a bodywork together. And the thing that kind of the whole story that came out of the documentary is about the effect it has on the course owners, not so much the horse and the change in the way they do things and other parts of their life now. So that was a really interesting thing. Yeah. I, I don't know. I think it's with producers now or something that's called a mind is like still water, so it should be coming out somewhere. So either, you know, online or on Netflix from something.Heather:
Oh, thank you so much for mentioning it. That's great. Thank you so much for today, Jim. I really, really like diving into this with you and I so appreciate your time and all the stories that you've shared with us and given us lots to chew on, so to speak. So thank you so much,JIm :
But, and it's about horses too, which makes it even more fun, more enjoyable.Heather:
I know people who follow my podcast are seeing a subtle trend with my guests, I think. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The last year has brought a lot of joy to my life with the horses. So it's been wonderful to be able to pick up the phone call people like yourself and have you participate. So thank you again.JIm :
And if any of your listeners are, you know, do have horses, they should go to our website and just read up about, or go on YouTube and look up Masterson Methods. Um, absolutely. My philosophy is you put stuff out there and that people can do and try, and it works for them and they will have any more than they come back and learn more. So I like to put a lot of stuff out there that people can just go practice themselves. And then if they want to learn more, they come to come to us. And there is one video that we did a couple of years ago called light to the core, and it doesn't involve any manipulation of the horse at all. It's just using very light touch and learning to read a reading, what the horse is telling you in different parts of its body, for example, that you you're working in the lower neck area of the horse. Often doing legwork, the horse might stomp hind foot when it feels something up in the grind. So there's a connection. There's an anatomical connection between that area in the body and the hind end. So the horse will actually, if you're paying attention to these patterns of behaviors, that parcels what's going on, but anyway, it's light to the core, it might be something that would be interesting for, for people that are for your audience. Excellent.Heather:
Excellent. Yeah. Well, I haven't seen that one. So I'm going to look at that. So thank you. I am been a fan and I have the book and the DVD. So it's, it's wonderful and more important is that you're using them. There are a lot Of people who buy the book DVD of them. They're, they're afraid to go out and try some things, but that's what I want people to give us do is go out and try some of these things on their horses and see what kind of responses they get and what kind of, you know, what happens. Yeah. Wow. So it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful way to be. So thank you again.JIm :
Yeah, really. Thank you for asking this, you know, I, I get, you know, in the patients do podcasts and things, but this is the first one on intuition. Oh, awesome. All right. Great. Well, thanks. I knew it was coming. No, perhapsHeather:
You did on some level, Jim.Speaker 4:
Yeah. Perfect. Have a great day. Okay. Thank you.Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for giving us your time today. We truly appreciate our guests for sharing their stories and insights about how intuition has impacted their lives. And I'm so grateful for Peter trainer for his time and giving me this original music. It's now your turn. It's your turn to listen and act on your own intuition and help make the world a better place until next time, keep seeing being, knowing, and doing. If you like this podcast, please share it. If you want to find others, like it, go to www dot healing, vitality.ca or wherever you would find your podcasts. We would love to have you join us on this journey. Come be a Crow sitting in the tree, be part of our community.