Jasmine Star (00:00:14) - Welcome back to the Jasmine Star Show. I have been patiently and impatiently creeping on our guest today. Denise is an influencer marketing expert focusing on startup consumer products. I know a lot of fancy words strung together. She's also an investor and managing partner in a venture capital firm. But let me tell you why I have been so intrigued with her journey, her brilliance, and the way that she is connecting the dots, which is what we all do here on the Jasmine Star Show, is she has been called the godmother of influencer marketing and out of college she worked with Madonna, which inadvertently taught her how to build a brand. Pivot, leverage, creativity. I mean, y'all, we do this on the regular. But she also went on tour with Madonna. She's learning and had learned back then what makes brand partnerships work and what works for creative campaigns. She also then thereafter started freelancing with brands, and ended up with a foundation of how she built her own business. And she is self proclaimed, constantly resourceful when people say no.

Jasmine Star (00:01:09) - Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Denise Lambert's into the Jasmine Star Show. Denise, I'm so happy you're here. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here. And thank you. You really did do your homework.

Denise Lambertson (00:01:18) - That was one of the most thorough intros I've ever been given, so I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Jasmine Star (00:01:24) - Thank you. And so what I want people to do is I want people to go back and listen to the other podcast interviews that you've done. You really broke down a lot of the extensive work that you did with Madonna early on. So instead of kind of like repeating that like everybody's origin story is great, but I think that that is just like a small, tiny microcosm. I think it sounds so great and it's a good story to start. But what I want to go is I want to go to the meat. I want to know, how did you get from being an executive assistant to actually starting off growing? And more than anything, the listeners of this show, mostly most of us are entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs.

Jasmine Star (00:01:58) - And so what I really want you to speak in is you have been in the front row of marketing, and it's taken on different forms, like influencer marketing than turning into equity. And that's the conversation that I would love to have. And one of the things I found fascinating is that you have access to brands and the celebrities, and then you started creating unique insights to start an agency, and then you started an investment fund. But before we get there, I kind of want people to know from your perspective, you get on an elevator with somebody and somebody says, oh, so what do you do? How would you explain that? Oh gosh.

Denise Lambertson (00:02:28) - Going to the hardest question first, it's it's a complicated one. I typically say marketing agency. And I am an investor. I like to incubate startups with services and capital. But, you know, really the headline for me, I believe I'm a connector. That's where my joy comes from. That's where my purpose comes from. So whether it's connecting capital to companies and influencers to startups, you know, I've introduced people that have gotten married, I've introduced people to have stayed with their boss and executive assistant roles for ten years.

Denise Lambertson (00:02:59) - So I just like to make really valuable introductions. Well, I hope that was a long elevator ride because I definitely know.

Jasmine Star (00:03:06) - It was so. No, Denise, it was so good because when I first came across you, I tried my hardest. So my podcast producer and I, we went through and we read this bio and it's beautifully written, it's beautifully done. It was so much and I'm like, okay, but how on an elevator ride do I describe her? So I actually tossed the hardest question to you to begin with, because I want people to get a foundation that at the end of this podcast show, people are going to learn more about marketing. Maybe it's marketing that they're deploying immediately, maybe it's marketing that they can be a part of or employ on the inside of their organization. This is this conversation. I'm fascinated with everything that you're doing. And as any good conversationalist would know, we're going to start with Beyonce. I know we're going to turn this on its head because I want people to be like, what? How does this podcast host and the world of Beyonce and the world of watermelon omics? I'm wondering if you could start the story with watermelon water, and how Beyonce flipped that conversation on its head to totally surprise you.

Jasmine Star (00:04:02) - Yes!

Denise Lambertson (00:04:02) - Oh my gosh, that's a fun one that is. Hindsight is 2020. It's always fun to look back on deals when they have worked out, but that was also a long one and that was quite the roller coaster. But Watermelon Water was a client of my agency and really they had brought us on for local influencers. I think this is back in 2016. So like Micro-influencers Instagram Micro-influencers was just at the very beginning, you know, you can even remember a time and they were only in two markets, LA and New York. Watermelon water was only being sold in two markets. And as a part of our onboarding process that we do with any new client. You know, one of the last questions, and I think I stole this from somebody I don't know who. So I'm sorry if money was no object. And if you could have all your dreams fulfilled for your brand, dead or alive, like who would be the dream ambassador face of your business? And really, that question is just more of an exercise of, you know, getting a founding team to really explain how they think about their brand.

Jasmine Star (00:05:03) - But hold on, I have to pause there. I have to pause there because this is so profound and I don't don't want to, like, glaze over it if we're listening right now. Denise asked somebody. Who, as her agency was representing. What's your dream partner? And what they wanted to do is get alignment to the brand and the vision and the overall culture. What is the thing that's not being said here? And so as a business owner, you might find yourself in the place if you have a very small business, that you are the face and the personality. But as the business grows, and even if you're not there yet, who might be the person or the group of people who would embody the brand of the business? And so, right, their first takeaway action is who might that person be? Okay, let's go back to the story.

Denise Lambertson (00:05:38) - Yeah, absolutely. It's it's worked. It's been a great exercise for us. And immediately the founder, a woman named Jodi Levy, said Beyonce, she had just put out her song Drunk in Love.

Denise Lambertson (00:05:49) - And there's a line, there's a lyric in there that is, I've been drinking watermelon and she, you know, listed all the reasons why Beyonce is perfect for her business and being the connector and that I am. I was like, oh, that's amazing. I totally see it. Very exciting. Why don't we send some product over to her team's office? I know a few people on her team from my music industry days, like, let's just have some fun. Let's just send some product over. Well, long story very, very short. Sent the product over to the office the day or the day after it. She happened to be in the office. It happened to be on the table when she walked into the conference room. And she happened to. This is a testament to a great package in a great bottle design, because you noticed it immediately and was like, what is this? I'm really interested in this. Who knows where did this come from? And that really it's a different kind of influencer, right? Like the ability to get a product into the right place to be noticed without not necessarily influencer.

Denise Lambertson (00:06:42) - The way that we think about it now, which is one to many, but 1 to 1 other person to many, is another sequence. And so that was really we were in back in that office with her team four days later starting the conversations.

Jasmine Star (00:06:57) - Wow. Okay, so we're listening. And who doesn't want Beyonce? Who doesn't.

Denise Lambertson (00:07:01) - Want Beyonce as a part.

Jasmine Star (00:07:03) - Of their business? So this is not I have a direct contact to Beyonce. This is we have a great product, we have a dream and we have an address that we can send good product to and the stars align. And one of the things I found fascinating about the story was that watermelon water, if I understand it correctly, didn't necessarily have the budget to include Beyonce as part of being on the front end of its marketing campaign. But Beyonce wanted to do what as a part of that.

Denise Lambertson (00:07:28) - Yeah, well, so as I mentioned, it was in two markets. So really early in the life stage of the business. And you know, even if they had had a budget which they did not, but let's say they had, there would have been doing a marketing campaign with Beyonce, who's got a global reach for a product that's only available in two markets.

Denise Lambertson (00:07:45) - Like that's kind of a waste, right? Like there's only a certain amount of people that can walk into a store and buy it at that time. So instead of doing what is more traditional in beverage, and you may or may not remember that Beyonce was in a Pepsi partnership for a few years right before that. Right? And so, you know, it was how do we do this different? There's clearly value alignment here. There's clearly interest. So instead of building a marketing campaign, she opted to come in as a cash investor as the business was going through a round of venture funding. And as a part of that, there was, you know, an announcement that was made and that announcement served as a catalyst for the business. I mean, it really put watermelon water on the radar for other retailers, for other markets. ET cetera. So she put her money in and then she put her name behind it, but not a marketing campaign in the beginning.

Jasmine Star (00:08:35) - That and so there's so many elements to the story.

Jasmine Star (00:08:37) - So I'm a natural born storyteller. So I see how this is like unfolding in so many different ways. And so there is a business owner who is afraid that apples to apples, you might only be in two markets, and so you would close yourself off from an opportunity of getting somebody with a much bigger name. But the story takes so many different angles, and it says so much about Beyonce as an entrepreneur. It's like she will find a win when she knows the product is good and where it is. And so that's where I want to tap. That's where I wanted to start the story, because people are listening and saying, wow, okay, so I understand she's a connector and she's an investor. So when you start your journey, you see what type of gap in the market. And then how do you say, I can connect this gap like talk to us? Go back a little bit of the origin story.

Denise Lambertson (00:09:17) - So when I identify a product or when when a business comes to me that is interested in having kind of an amplifier and that, you know, I say amplifier celebrity can mean Beyonce, it can mean athletes, it can mean, you know, creators.

Denise Lambertson (00:09:30) - There's lots of ways to amplify now, but they're looking for that spark to the gas. Right. To really to put some major growth behind their their business or product. I always start with value alignment. First. I really like to understand what the attributes of the actual product are. And then I start to look for celebrities that are not obvious. And the reason that I do this, and I think it's probably really important for your listeners to know, is the super obvious categories are the ones that they're going to be locked up in for traditional endorsements. Right. Like let's see what's a good example to give you now? I mean, you listen, Gwen Stefani for many, many years had a Revlon relationship, I believe. With Revlon because her right and her lipstick. Now that gave her kind of expertise and permission and credibility to go out and build her own line leader. But like, you know, she you wouldn't bring a makeup line to to somebody who's known for makeup. What we want to do is be, you know, Gwen Stefani.

Denise Lambertson (00:10:28) - What else does she care about? God. Turns out she loves dogs. She's just, like, dies for her dog, but she doesn't have a pet deal. Okay, cool. You've identified this passion in her where it's not super obvious commercially. How do we connect with that passion? There's to your point about storytelling. There's inherent storytelling for her to do in it. She's going to care in a different way than than she would if it's a partnership with a fortune 100 brand, and she's going to the fans and audience that she has access to are going to be surprised and delighted by something different than what she's telling them. And so those are really the keys that I look for is and it's hard, like, how do you Google what is so and so not known for you know, but it does, you know, there's obviously a lot of information out there now on social people put out themselves PR et cetera. We're you start to see where those gaps are and how you can connect those dots.

Jasmine Star (00:11:23) - Okay. I love this because I like looking. So one of my strengths would be a pattern spotter. And then also like an editor and a distiller. And so where I'm going to leverage like my strongest most right now is distillation. So a lot of listeners right now would be like, sure, who wouldn't want to work with Beyonce or Gwen Stefani or any other big name out there? But as a small to medium sized business owner, what then would you do? And I immediately take this notion, this idea that we can all create a punch list. And maybe at the top of the apex is Beyonce. But as you move lower down the pyramid, the next tier, like your next growth step, might not be a mega celebrity. It might just be a local influencer who has around 5000 to 10,000 followers who you could say this is the punch list and they might be known as a fashion or fitness influencer, but if you have a local dog product or if you're a local business owner, you might be able to say, well, she's not promoting coffee at this time.

Jasmine Star (00:12:09) - But if we were to create some sort of synergy with our coffee shop, with our roasters, that then this might be an alignment for her. So taking the same idea, but distilling it on a much smaller level so that you can work your way up the apex of the pyramid. Do I understand that correctly?

Denise Lambertson (00:12:20) - Yes, absolutely. And Jasmine, you've hit on a really key part of this whole process, which typically starts before what I call the who, which is the fun part, right? Like who is? And that's building the foundation and understanding what your business needs. Yes. Start with the who. It's very easy to get glamour excited, distracted. And what you really want to do first and foremost is think about what is your plan for for growth? What milestones do you expect to hit? What customer is going to get you there? Is that your current customer? You need more of them? Or are you going to go to the next concentric circle out of customers? What are the channels that you have the ability to activate on and that your potential customer is already there? What would you be willing to give up in order to get somebody? You know, if we are talking about equity, like how much of your business are you going to be willing to give up and if there's investors or other people involved, but, you know, are all stakeholders aligned on that because that's important.

Denise Lambertson (00:13:13) - And then what are the deliverables that you think you would need from somebody? So I like to do all that foundation work. It's not popular. Everyone wants to go straight to the hoop because that's the fun part. You do that first and then what ends up happening is you get a really clear archetype of what you're looking for, and the emotion gets taken out of it. And it's not just about who you think and who you're excited about and who, like you may be a fan of, it's really about, you know, and a really great example of this is for many years, every business or product that had like a sustainability angle wanted to work with Leo DiCaprio because he is known for being a sustainable a celebrity who cares about the environment. And then we would dig in and, you know, be like, how do you plan? What's your plan to activate him? Oh, we want him to do social, but he's not active on social. So he may be a great value embodiment, but he's not going to push the business goals forward.

Denise Lambertson (00:14:06) - So do you have a money for out-of-home campaign? Are you going to send them? You know, all these things. It's like okay, no. Right. So you then make your list of who are the right people from super A-listers, you know, to influencers, creators, local. ET cetera. And you always want to be gut checking against that original foundational work because then it become like the go no go becomes much, much easier to manage, and you end up with a much more successful partnership.

Jasmine Star (00:14:31) - I couldn't agree more. Yes. And amen. And one thing that I want to go back and tap on here was the distinction between getting an alignment of if you're going to bring somebody in talks of equity. Now, I feel like I have been watching the game for long enough to start denoting that brands were working with affiliates and partners, and then all of a sudden we see 50 cent. And what he did to change the way that celebrities look at equity. And when the way we look at Rihanna and Fenty and we way that we see like even Beyonce and Watermelon water.

Jasmine Star (00:15:00) - So I love this conversation because there are smaller business owners who might not have a large marketing budget on the front end, but who believe that in partnership with somebody that it would cost less up front. But then you're both building together. When did you start seeing that shift, and then how prevalent is it from my perspective? Like, I don't know, someone's like, what do you see like or brands really wanting to build equity side on with somebody who has a strong personal brand? Or do you still really strongly see it is like it's mostly partnerships.

Denise Lambertson (00:15:27) - So the the catalyst for that you already hit on, you know, it began in I think the 50 cent Vitaminwater deal was in like 2006. And then I think Vitamin Water sold in 2008 2009. So but really when Vitamin Water sold and the rumors of that equity and how it paid off for 50 cent and they are rumors, I don't think he's ever said publicly, but, you know, that that started to become really pervasive. And that was the catalyzing event for the entertainment industry in particular, to be like, oh my, this is exciting.

Denise Lambertson (00:15:55) - This is a different way to engage with brands. We don't just have endorsements now. Now we have this other partnership. So that was when I started to, you know, my network that I had had built from working with Madonna, which, you know, celebrities, influencers, etcetera, that I was trying to service in other ways with blue chip company consulting projects. They were asking me, my network was asking me for like, okay, yeah, sure, I'm interested in this cash deals and you spend I'm really interested in equity. Like, what does this look like? And so that's literally how I got into it. My network started to ask me questions, and I realized that there was an opportunity there. I would say that most entertainers and amplifiers have at least one experience with an equity deal at this point. I mean, it has got, you know, we've come a long way from 2008 and it can take a bunch of different forms. In the in the first few years, it was very similar to what you saw with 50 cent Vitamin Water, where there was a, you know, co-created product and there was an equity split in kind of like in the lane of what a commission or royalty commission would have looked like, but instead with the equity component.

Denise Lambertson (00:16:58) - Then we started to see equity being used as a transaction tool for campaigns. So instead of this in cash, would you prefer the same amount in shares? Right. Then we started to there were some really early adopters on the celebrity founder, right. So we've got Jessica Alba, an honest company, and we've got Gwyneth Paltrow on Goop. And then around that time we started to see a little bit of fatigue to the equity for marketing services like, okay, I still have to do all this work, but I have to wait 5 or 6 years till I get like, okay, I don't want to do that for every deal I'm in. But I still really like these brands. Oh, investing sounds cool. Then I can put money in and I can support brands that I love the way that I want to, but I don't have this list of deliverables that I'm, you know, required to do because I'm an investor. Okay. I want to start doing that now. And now we're at this, you know, kind of it's a bit bifurcated now in the sense we've got, you know, we've got the Serena Williams and the Kim Kardashian's of the world who are launching, you know, venture and private equity funds.

Denise Lambertson (00:18:01) - I mean, the Serena Williams Fund is not a family office. You raise capital that is her own fund. Like that is her right. And same with same with Kim Kardashian. And then we've got celebrities starting their own businesses and taking venture capital and do it right. And we're seeing that the proliferation of that. So it's a very exciting time. And I really want to underline this for your listeners. It couldn't be a more exciting time to be a small business wanting to do a partnership like this. There are so many different ways to do it. There are so many ways to get creative and the entertainment and sports industry, they are, they are more educated than they've ever been on this kind of structure. And they are willing in all sorts of different ways to entertain brand ideas, especially for products and concepts that they really love.

Jasmine Star (00:18:44) - I love this so much. And now again, this is where I'm going to apply the distillation and then probably frame working it. So a lot of listeners are building out pretty strong personal brands.

Jasmine Star (00:18:53) - And even if the strong personal brands happens to be like a niche within a niche, there is a lot of value for small like B2B, SaaS companies to kind of bring on very like several celebrities version of that person in an industry. So let's just say hypothetically, as an example, and I'm being very selfish here because this question is not even on my list of questions, but I'm like, oh, I want to know this. Okay, actually, instead of giving a different example, I'm just going to use this as a very selfish time to talk about something that I have encountered. And it's totally new terrain for me. So if developed a name and a voice in an industry, and there are companies who are coming to me wanting to create equity deals and it's a whole new world. So if you could give three tips for anybody like myself who, regardless of the size of industry or size of following or size of voice, that what are three things that you would give as tips is when you are being pitched an equity deal.

Jasmine Star (00:19:44) - What are three things to take into consideration? Where does one start when evaluating? Is this an alignment or a good fit? For me.

Denise Lambertson (00:19:50) - This is a great question. So the first tip would be to remember the adage of when you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And that could not be more true in this case, right? There's only you only want to do so many equity deals because they are high risk, high reward. And they are you know, they're like a long term investment strategy. It's going to pay off later. Right. So I would start with what? Start thinking about what would I be not able to do if I took this partnership? And is it okay to take that off the table for me right now? The next thing that I would look at is if you were being approached for this kind of partnership with these kinds of deliverables in this kind of category, and you were being offered your current cash rate for that, what is that and what would the number need to be to make you willing to defer that cash game? Because that's what you're really doing.

Denise Lambertson (00:20:43) - You know, if it's you're not able to do competitive deals even when you're in an equity situation. Right? So you have to think, if I was going to make $25,000 for doing these things today, do I believe that my contribution could help build this company to a place where, if I just did this, got paid two years later, it would be $200,000, right. And like, what is that threshold? And if the answer is no, then that's a real clear indicator to you that this is not the category of business that you should be taking an equity deal in. And then the third is it's really important to know who you're in business with and to do some research on their ability to, you know, who's on their board, who's advising them, are they going to really be able because you can only have so much influence as a partner. Some you have to really believe not only in the product but in the leadership of the team. And like, are they going to be able to go the distance and grow and is it going to turn into something for you?

Jasmine Star (00:21:36) - So that was so good.

Jasmine Star (00:21:39) - I feel like I'm just using this as a complete side note opportunity as such a win. So thank you for that. So as people are listening and then I started off with a really great story about Beyonce. And then we talk about 50 cent. And we are frame working and run ideas. Let's say with Gwen Stefani it seemed like a natural progression for her to partner up with Revlon. But yet we know she's now a dog lover and this is like a great opportunity. And then we go through and we start from working how it might be distilled down into smaller markets and doing it in a local area. And then we also talked about what it might look like to build a personal brand and get equity or some sort of partnership, and in a smaller microcosm of a niche. Great. So people hear all of this and think it's really impressive. But let's go back to the version of Denise that you decide you are going to leave, the amazing experience that working with Madonna has been and now you're an entrepreneur.

Jasmine Star (00:22:22) - Let's go back to her and let's build the story around. How do you decide I'm going to freelance, I'm going to start this business. Like where is your mindset? Because there are listeners who are like, I'm going to do something based on this unique insight that I have. Where do I start? How do I feel? What was the development of you as an entrepreneur back then?

Denise Lambertson (00:22:39) - Yes, I hope this is a satisfying answer is the truth. But I was really naive when I left Madonna and I had been in what I call a Madonna bubble for the past six years, and I certainly had. I left in the spring of 2009, and I really had no concept of what was going on with the job market, and I had no idea that there were no jobs, essentially. And I basically came out of that position and was like, okay, world, who wants me? You're all waiting to hire me for this. Great. And like, there were none. There were no jobs.

Denise Lambertson (00:23:08) - And I got a lot of interviews because my background is really interesting and I think people were intrigued. But to your point, at the beginning of this conversation, my experience is really wide and that even in that role, like where do you put me? And what I found was I was getting the kinds of offers and I wasn't really able to articulate what I wanted in the world was in the middle of changing, I was able to identify a trend at that time that there was a lot of 1099 money on the books, while the while companies were not doing, you know, W-2, salaried hire, we're, you know, trying to keep the lights on with 1099 work. And I was like, okay, cool, let me see if I can position myself as, you know, a short term solution to some of these things. And, you know, really my mindset was glass half full like, this allows me to date before I marry, I'm going to freelance at a few different companies, and the one with the culture and the experience and the people that I like the most like, then I'm just going to burrow in and make myself so indispensable that they're going to hire me, and I'm going to get this job that, you know, doesn't exist right now.

Denise Lambertson (00:24:13) - But wait a.

Jasmine Star (00:24:13) - Minute, Denise, let's go back. There was one thing you had said. I noticed a trend. There was more 1099 money than W-2 money. And it's a win win because I get to taste a little bit from the buffet before I decide. But how did you identify the title of what you were freelancing for? Like what? What was that first title? What were you pitching yourself for?

Denise Lambertson (00:24:29) - Yeah, so I really just spent a lot of time listening to the questions that were being asked of me in these interviews that were going nowhere. You know, the questions that people were asking you was around, how would you connect so-and-so to this business? Like, I was taking cues based off of the questions that were being asked about, like where people assign value to my very wide breadth of experience because, you know, with Madonna, I had I mean, there was a case to be made. I could have done production work. So I've been on the set of so many videos shoot.

Denise Lambertson (00:24:56) - Right. So I was really just listening, and I found that a lot of people were very interested in my kind of ability to go between these two worlds of business and celebrity and business and entertainment, and try and make these two sides of the world understand each other. That was pretty unique. Back at the time. So that's really what it was. I was just like, oh, this is what these people want for me. I think I can do it. I think I want to do it, you know, because the other side of that is you have to be careful. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean that that's what you should be doing with your time. And I've certainly learned that lesson the hard way. But in this scenario, I was like, I think I would actually really enjoy this. So there was a lot of trying things on, you know, I would go and be like, okay, well, I can control for you for this. I see a real opportunity here and like a little bit of BSing, but a belief in myself because of the resourcefulness and all that.

Denise Lambertson (00:25:42) - So I just kind of pitch it this way. And then I pitched it that way, and at some point something stuck.

Jasmine Star (00:25:48) - That's incredible. Okay. And so as we go through this journey, I remember hearing this story about your first deal, and it was chia pudding for an Australian brand. And one of the things that I took away from hearing that story was that you quickly understood on the back of your first deal, how important it was to get somebody who really believed in the product. And so I want to hear it from a business perspective. What did you learn and why did you say like, oh, this is not about a name. This is about somebody who cares about it, who also happens to have a name talk to me about like connecting the dots for listeners there. Yes.

Denise Lambertson (00:26:19) - It really comes down to storytelling, frankly. Like if this celebrity is going to be a partner to your product, how do they merchandise this relationships in their life where the customer or the potential customer really buys in? And it was a very interesting time.

Denise Lambertson (00:26:33) - And I the example that I'll give, you know, traditional endorsements looked very much at the time, like Sarah Jessica Parker for Garnier Nutrisse. And like as a consumer, we just don't buy that. Right? Like, we know that she most likely doesn't get her hair colored with Garnier Nutrisse like nothing against her or any excuse is probably just not the truth. But like, that's what was going on in commercials. That's what was going on in print and advertising. And so when you are doing something from a startup perspective and you're trying to connect with potential customers, what I was trying to do is identify places for those stories to be told. The chieh company, the it turns out, and we could have done all the foundational work in the world, and we probably wouldn't have found this insight, which is why it's important to also let deals grow into what they need to be. But she a company, their farms were in Australia and the company was an Australian company doing business in the US. And Kelly Slater was like a real connection to Australia and he really like he had done a lot of competitions there and he really like loved it and was very committed to and excited about the idea of going to the farms, you know, so that's the story that customers can get behind.

Denise Lambertson (00:27:41) - It's like, okay, we've seen him there. He's talked about how much he loves this, etcetera. They the company is based there. That's where their product is grown. Like, okay, now we've got a narrative. It's a little Wag the dog because this was born in the boardroom. Right. But it takes the customer on a journey that is ultimately believable. And I think that it feels so obvious to us now. But in this moment in time, that's just not how marketing was done. It didn't matter that it was believable. It just needed to hit certain metrics on visibility and demos and and all those scores and all of that. Like that's. So it was a real moment in time that we're all enjoying the benefit of now think.

Jasmine Star (00:28:21) - Okay, so I don't know, I just asked questions and if you're not comfortable answering them like it's totally fine. But I always learn more from lessons that we might have learned in business. Has there ever been a time where a partnership just didn't work despite your best efforts, despite due diligence, despite all of that? Like, I don't need to know the person, but like, what was the lessons or the takeaways from a partnership that just despite your best efforts just didn't work?

Denise Lambertson (00:28:41) - Yes.

Denise Lambertson (00:28:42) - Oh gosh. Of course. So I think the biggest takeaway from that, the one I'm thinking of right now, is we put together a partnership based on the fact that somebody was just a believer in the brand, like they were a fan of the brand. They were doing all this essentially free publicity just because they loved it and they were posting about it. And they're, you know, you're what's on your morning routine. I have this et-cetera. And so we went out and just did a deal with that person and thinking that that was enough. And the deal the market results were not what either side wanted, because truly the audience wasn't aligned with the they weren't the customer, frankly. And so it's very nice. And I think we all get very flattered when somebody likes our stuff or likes us. Right. And it's really easy to be like, okay, well, that's authentic. That's going to work. Just because it's authentic and unfortunately just authentic isn't enough, right? Authenticity is a bar, and it's a pillar in marketing, and it's one that you absolutely must have.

Denise Lambertson (00:29:43) - But you also need to make sure all of these other elements are, you know, for instance, I once did a great deal. I thought it was a great deal with a celebrity and a product, and it checked a ton of those boxes. Distribution, the, you know, the kind of marketing search. His audience was young and they weren't willing to spend. It was a premium, disruptive challenger food brand. And they just they just weren't willing to spend it. They didn't have that kind of it was just. A wrong target customer that he had. He didn't do anything wrong. The brand didn't do anything wrong. But like, you know that product market fit does need to be there. And I think it's really quaint and become like a very sweet story that like they were true fan of the brand from the beginning. And you can't just rely on that and you shouldn't just rely on that, okay?

Jasmine Star (00:30:29) - And this is just going to betray like my knowingness of the industry and analytics. But isn't it difficult to assess the quality of an audience like outside of engagement? Yes.

Jasmine Star (00:30:38) - But then it's also sometimes engagement can be falsified. And, you know, if there was like a distribution, authenticity, engagement and all these things, check the box. How would one say, oh, well, now that we know the audience was just young, right? But without having access to like, say, Instagram's API, how would one then assess, like the validity of one's audience to be like a pre-qualified buyer?

Denise Lambertson (00:30:56) - Yeah. So it's it's not it's certainly not a perfect science by any means. But we weren't even asking at the time, and I don't even know that Instagram had at the time of the first one, the ability to show data on like demographics, psychographics, interests, other brand. So we were just like, cool. We assume that her followers are all kind of like her. They're all the same age they all like. And it's before you sign anything you you should ask for. Hey, do you share with me some metrics on your audience? I want this to work for both of us, because at the end of the day, everyone wants, you know, she wanted it to be a win for them, and they wanted to be a win for them, too.

Denise Lambertson (00:31:34) - And so it was kind of like, even though she did everything she was supposed to, it was just kind of felt bad. You know, it was a bummer for her. So I don't I guess the moral of this story is, and what to distill from it, is it's okay to ask for metrics and it's and a good partner that wants the brand to succeed will be willing to share some information with you. And it's okay if you walk away if the metrics don't work because they want to be successful in what they do as well. Those conversations can be uncomfortable sometimes, but they're really common and they're really worth it.

Jasmine Star (00:32:03) - Okay, so I have just two final sections that I really want to address because I want to make sure that I'm really doing right by the listeners. And I know, I know the audience segmentation for this podcast. And there is a small contingency of influencers who are not just influencers, they're entrepreneurs. These are true entrepreneurs who are building a business around influencing. And what I started noticing, probably around 2021, was like a distinct shift in how many contracts and what we're being used in.

Jasmine Star (00:32:27) - Having close proximity to some consulting that I'm doing for influencers is across the board, at least with people I'm seeing the influencer contracts seem to be minimizing. And so maybe that's just from my perspective. What predictions do you have? Like what is the current state of influencer marketing and then what predictions might you have since you are still in such a front row seat to it?

Denise Lambertson (00:32:45) - So the current state is a lot of supply of influencers and not as much demand, mostly because of market conditions, frankly, you know, even though we have not hit the recession that everyone keeps saying is coming, as you know, the first thing that gets cut, any kind of fear based moment is marketing dollars. So, you know, unfortunately for influencers, there's a kind of supply and somebody is most likely willing to do it for less expensive. And that's what brands are prioritizing right now because they're scared and they should be. It's a moment in time where everyone needs to be conservative. So I think that being willing to share the metrics of your last deal, or what you think of worth, or if you really love the business, being willing to take a haircut and saying, you know, but my next time I'm going to be this I really want to say this, but I know you're going to be so happy you're going to come back.

Denise Lambertson (00:33:34) - It's unfortunate, but that's the truth of it. There's also, unfortunately, been a there was a massive rush into influencer marketing as soon as businesses started to understand that it was a real channel, it was legitimate and a lot of companies did it the wrong way. And so now there is this polarized idea of like, influencer marketing doesn't work. And so the expectations are unrealistic. See, influencers nor brands can influence the platform algorithm and those changes make it less bankable. And so it's a little bit of a fragile time. However, I will say the data and I've always got my head in in the data, you know, it absolutely works. Having influencers speak on behalf of your brand to their audience is still one of the most verifiable ways to get your product sold, your product, your share of voice. Increase all of these things so, you know the data really supports that it works, which is great for the influencer community. I think we're in a moment of like cream rising to the top.

Denise Lambertson (00:34:31) - And just I would tell people to wait it out.

Jasmine Star (00:34:34) - I love this, and this is so important just to denote the current state of the industry, but then also for the people who are professionally influencing to wait and continue to carve out value and to approach it like it's a business deal, it's not one sided. You are very much a business owner and so defend your worth, put it together and then also make yourself a very viable option. Now, one of the things that I really loved the more that I researched about you, was that you had the ability to connect disparate dots. And as I was sitting with my podcast producer, I really wanted to know about this idea of community. And I didn't want to, like, come out and just throw something out there without having, like, robust knowledge of it. But one of the things that you had said or one of the things that you're. Did was that you believe that community is like the next marketing white space. And I'm like, I agreed to, but talk to us like Denise.

Jasmine Star (00:35:18) - Like explain can help me connect those dots in a real, tangible business way. So sometimes it's kind of like nebulous, right? Like people say community. What do we mean by community? How does it monetize? Like how is it impacting from your front row perspective. And you see this as a white space. What are you looking at? What are you seeing? What are trends? How do we walk away with this as business owners.

Denise Lambertson (00:35:34) - So I'm so excited about it. It's really at the very, very beginning. I feel like the what community is going to become for businesses. We're at the absolute genesis, the way that I felt about influencer marketing a decade ago, what it's an important distinction to make. And I think this is more important for brands to make it than necessarily individuals. But, you know, an audience is not a community. Those are two different things. And I think that has been confused for a while now. You know, I'm going to build my community on Instagram.

Denise Lambertson (00:36:01) - That's not a community. That is an Instagram audience and that or a TikTok audience, whatever it is. Right. So a community and the real value of a community, an example that I love to give of a brand community that is doing really well, that I think really illustrates what it could be, is peloton. Peloton has, you know, they have consumers that love it so much that they are sharing experiences with other consumers. They want to bring their friends into classes. They want to share the experience of the brand with other people. Now, there are influencers in that community as well. You've got the instructors and they're participating in the brand. But what you're seeing is groups that are selling to each other and sharing with each other, and that's really what a community will do for a business, and is like finding a place where the next iteration of influencers is just your customer talking to other customers like your brand evangelists telling you like, right? Like that word of mouth has been so hard to quantify, but you got to give those people a home online and off, and you have to moderate that community and you've got to you can learn a ton from that community, and you've got to make it fun, incentivize it.

Denise Lambertson (00:37:08) - And communities. There are long game for brands. They are not. You know, we've all been very, you know, business. They've had it very good in the last few years with the ability to target before iOS 14 and all of that. Right. Like a marketing plan had immediate ROI for brands. And there's this expectation of that now. But I'm a brand marketer. I believe in brand. I believe in brand being the ultimate differentiator. And that's a long play. And a community is is a long play. It has to be nurtured. But if you invest in building that and you really identify who those evangelists are, that can be ambassadors or influencers within your community, you will end up spending probably, you know, little to no money to to grow your business and brand. I'm trying to think if there's other really great examples of communities. I mean, I think Instapot is another one like Instacart. The right like the, the, the people that live society are just sharing recipes and hacks and all the time.

Denise Lambertson (00:38:01) - And like when they come out with an accessory, it's like, oh, I have to get this to section. Do you have this accessory? Oh, you're not going to get your experience right. Like that is, you know, in this this you know, as far as disparate dots community and the future of community has a connection to all of these reports. We're hearing about loneliness right now. Right. Like people are craving connection. And that can be around around values, interests, work, all of these things. And like I said, it needs to be online and offline. But that's kind of the antidote to the emotional place as a culture. So yeah, that's my shtick on community. I'm really excited about it, and I'm really proud of the brands that are willing to do the hard work now. Yes. Amen.

Jasmine Star (00:38:42) - So quick question. I know that there's going to be the last one, but I'm like, no, no, no. One quick thing. As an active takeaway, we use peloton as an example, and they have the hardware and then their online community of their own users paying users, evangelizing the product by most intense.

Jasmine Star (00:38:56) - They're doing that on social media on Instapot. I'm not as familiar with that community as I am with the peloton. You see a lot of like, accessories recipes still happening on social media. Do I hear community being activated? Like peloton hardware? You can engage with the community on the hardware or the software, but with Instapot, do they have third party software like how does an average business cultivate community? When you're like, they need a place to connect? Are you saying they need a place to connect that's facilitated via social media, and then having moderators focused on those, like cultivating those conversations? Are you saying like there should be a separate space for them to dwell? Like, do we really think that people on Instapot are going to go to like an instapot community on instapot.com?

Denise Lambertson (00:39:34) - So I'm about to blow your mind right now. Jasmine. But the second most popular feature on Facebook that is used every single day besides the news feed. So that's the feed our Facebook groups.

Jasmine Star (00:39:46) - I know, I know, Denise, I know crazy.

Denise Lambertson (00:39:50) - I mean it is really like that is so it could be there. It's discord, it's slack. It's, you know, there's a bunch of community platforms like circle and all these things that now allow you to build communities on top of them. Like you have to think of, you know, where are they comfortable? You know, if it's a work, right, maybe it's a separate right. I don't think it should be on an individual businesses website, I think that. That is making it like it's a bridge too far. It's just one step too much for the consumer. But you know, as there are a ton of options. And when I stumbled across that Facebook, you know, I was like, that's incredible. I think amount of people that check into their favorite group every month is like, or they check in 11 times a month, like, that kind of stickiness you don't really see. And that's that's actually where the peloton community that I'm talking about is engaging the most is in that group, not necessarily even just on the hardware.

Denise Lambertson (00:40:38) - Right. Because that's when they can say, you haven't tried so-and-so's class. Did you see the thing that they were wearing? I loved this song. Like that can only happen in a very specific technology environment. Denise, I.

Jasmine Star (00:40:50) - Feel like I can talk to you for days. Girl. I could talk to you for days. For people who would like to continue the conversations, get to know you more, the value that you are creating out on the internet, where do they go and how do they connect with you?

Denise Lambertson (00:41:02) - My website is we are LMS and you can always start there. My personal social media is hold the number for Denise and that is a throwback to my executive assistant days where I would just be like, hold, I just need to finish this. So hold in the number four. And that's across all platform. My agencies, we are on all the platforms and my venture fund we don't do social for. And that's because of all sorts of reasons, LinkedIn etcetera. You can if you're interested in the venture fund, you can find me on LinkedIn and we can talk about that.

Denise Lambertson (00:41:33) - But I absolutely love connecting with people. I love having exploratory conversations. And if this hits a chord with anyone that is listening and I can be of help, I will. I will do everything I can to answer and respond. So I really enjoyed this conversation so much.

Jasmine Star (00:41:48) - Thank you. Y'all can connect with Denise Lamberton on LinkedIn as well as we are on social outlets. And hold for Denise. There it is like y'all. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to The Jasmine Star Show. Thank you for taking the time to take actionable action towards your dreams and sharing what you know along the way. Like always, it's an honor and a privilege to have a good one.