Jasmine Star (00:00:14) - Welcome back to The Jasmine Star Show. And I know I say this plenty of times, but this particular episode is so near and dear to my heart that I'm challenging myself not to completely and totally geek out because I am having a cool girl in junior high school moment where the captain of the podcast team wants to sit at my cafeteria table. Y'all, I could not be more excited to invite and welcome Josh mucho, host of The Pitch podcast, to The Jasmine Star Show. Josh, welcome. I am so happy you are here in my proverbial junior high school.

Josh Muccio (00:00:50) - That that is so fun! What a great intro. I think it's my favorite ever.

Jasmine Star (00:00:54) - Oh well. I'm happy. I'm very happy you're here and we're going to get into the scope of who you are as a person, business owner, podcast host, and kind of what I'm going to go on and say is a sojourner creating your own path and showing other people how to do it. And so the story for us is going to be really important.

Jasmine Star (00:01:13) - So this podcast is going to look a little bit different than other podcasts in the past. So normally business owners come on and we talk about their journey. We talk about what they're doing. We talk about unique and new things that they're doing that people can then apply to their business. And so the goal of the Jasmine Star show has always been at the end of every episode, can a listener take one thing and apply it to their life or business to get change? Not 101. And in this particular episode, it is very unique because I feel like I have a very personal connection to Josh in the pitch. And Josh, if you give me just a couple minutes, can I explain the backstory so that people know why? Like I'm sounding like a Billy goat. I'm so excited. Like, Josh Mojo is here. Okay, so, um, sure. I have to tell you. I have to tell you that I started listening to a show on a network called gimlet.

Josh Muccio (00:02:04) - Good old Gimlet Media.

Jasmine Star (00:02:05) - Go, oh, Gimlet Media, you know? And so I became a big listener of podcasts through this network. I would listen to every podcast that this network put out, and one of the podcast was a show called The Pitch. And unbeknownst to me, it was already two seasons in. And I'm like, ah, I'm gonna listen to it. I don't really know much about pitching. I don't know much about venture capital. I don't even know a lot about investments. And then through the course of listening and completely bingeing on this show, I learned a couple of things. Nobody makes better dad jokes or puns than Josh mucho. Nobody. And I want that.

Josh Muccio (00:02:44) - On my phone.

Jasmine Star (00:02:45) - I mean, I know you work hard on them. They've got to. I mean, I just wait for them. It's like this build up. I'm like, what is going to be the dad joke pun of this week's episode? Um, and in addition.

Josh Muccio (00:02:55) - Scores of writers that's their entire job is do you really know? Oh, I.

Jasmine Star (00:02:59) - Was like, Josh. I was like, you're way fancy.

Josh Muccio (00:03:02) - No, but it is a team effort to come up with the dad jokes. Yes, it's.

Jasmine Star (00:03:05) - It's really impressive. And so I have to just take a step back and let people know that what I learned starting from that binge and hereafter is I have a deep and profound understanding about fundraising in the most basic sense. Y'all know that I'm not dumb, but I'm very simple and I feel like I have a really robust, deep sense of fundraising. I also now understand how founders evaluate the worth of their company, and whether or not an investor agrees with that evaluation. And I have also learned commonly asked questions from investors. So much so that on this podcast I have told you that I watch and I consume education, and then I pause and I ask myself, can I answer that question? I can now say, not that I ever want to, but I can now say that I can, in 30s flat, stand in front of a group of investors and feel pretty dang confident that I can make a pitch, and I have the answers to their commonly asked questions.

Jasmine Star (00:04:04) - Now, this does not.

Josh Muccio (00:04:05) - Mean do it on the fly, right? Like I almost get because of the show enough. And you just like, oh, give me an idea and I'll figure out how to pitch it.

Jasmine Star (00:04:12) - You know? And I feel like it is a skill set. And that's where I want to start this conversation. Because as any business owner, at any point in time, you become unmeasurable with when you feel really confident in your numbers. Evaluation places to improve. So Josh, now hearing that, can you go back and start us at why you started the show and what the intention was of the show going back then when this is just an idea because people have just an idea. And so I'm going to go back and I'm going to say that this episode is for investors. This episode is for podcast lovers, this episode is for podcast creators, and this episode is specifically for people who want to create a business by way of podcast. So, Josh, can we go back to the early version of you?

Josh Muccio (00:04:53) - Yeah.

Josh Muccio (00:04:54) - So I've always kind of been an entrepreneur. I, by accident, actually started in college, uh, built my first business. It was an e-commerce company and then sold it in 2015, which was like an eye opening moment in and of itself, to realize you could build a business that people would want to buy. Like that was just so cool. And then. And I sold it and I didn't know what to do, so I consulted for a little bit. I tried to start, you know, a few businesses with my friends. They weren't really entrepreneurs. They didn't take off. But then we had the idea for the pitch. We thought, you know what? Shark Tank is cool and all that. But what if there was a story? What if there was a podcast that actually told the true story of how these deals are done? And funny enough, I've been doing another podcast called The Daily Hunt, and that show didn't really go anywhere. I'm sure you haven't heard of it.

Josh Muccio (00:05:48) - Very many people listened. Very few people listened. But one person was an investor out in Silicon Valley named Sheila Minott. He listened and reached out and said, hey, I've been wanting to start a podcast that's like Shark Tank, and I think you'd be someone I'd want to start that podcast with.

Jasmine Star (00:06:05) - Okay, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. Josh, I'm I'm a natural born storyteller, and I don't want to glaze over what just happened, because it's pretty significant. And somebody listening right now might have the opportunity to stop their path after seeing what it is you went through. You sold the business. Very few people do that. So congratulations. And then what I heard, if I understood it correctly, is you dabble in a few other businesses that don't take off, which other people might consider a failure. On this show, we call them lessons. And then you start a podcast that doesn't take off the way that you want, and then an opportunity comes. So what are you telling yourself after each subsequent lesson? How are you pushing through with the podcast when nobody's listening? What is your mindset there?

Josh Muccio (00:06:51) - Um, it was frustrating for sure.

Josh Muccio (00:06:54) - We had, you know, we had money in the bank because we had sold that first business. So like there was room for experimentation, which was amazing. I mean, so what a blessing to be able to have a couple of years to figure out, you know, who I wanted to be when I grew up? I think I was around 27 maybe at the time, and yeah, I mean, building the podcast. I remember always talking to Lisa, um, my wife, um, she also helped kind of start the company in the beginning, but she was like, she was like, I don't know if Daily Hunt this show that I was doing that nobody was listening to. She's like, I don't know if Daily Hunt is the thing, but I feel like it'll probably lead to the thing. Um, and so a lot of times that was what motivated us to keep going because we didn't really know what was next. But we knew that we were supposed to be doing something in podcasting.

Josh Muccio (00:07:46) - So we just kept showing up. So and funny story, like, I had the idea for the podcast because I had a dream that I started a podcast. I woke up and produced the first episode of The Daily Hunt that day by the end of that day, and had and had it published. What was the.

Jasmine Star (00:08:01) - Premise of the show, The Daily Hunt?

Josh Muccio (00:08:02) - Well, there's this there was this, like really niche website called Product Hunt. Yes. Um, that was launched back in 2015, 2016. Yes. And they just highlighted like the best products. Um, best like product launches. This could be from like, Apple or like some really small startup. Like it could really spam, you know, any company. And it just really grew into this community of startup founders and like people that loved products and technology and starting new things. And I also, I was one of those people that just loved it because I was learning so much, and I was like being inspired by these people's ideas.

Josh Muccio (00:08:36) - And so I thought, oh, it'd be cool if I made a podcast that talked to it was a daily show, and we would talk to one of the companies that had launched on Product Hunt that day. But again, it was like, if I had really thought it through, like taking a niche website and then building a podcast for that niche, like you're just taking a slice of another slice and you're just like, hoping.

Jasmine Star (00:08:58) - You're just gonna slice of a really small slice to begin with. Yes. Okay, okay. And so then did you ever ask she'll how he came across? You know, for those of you who don't know, she'll is actually like a guest investor quite often on the show.

Josh Muccio (00:09:12) - Yeah, yeah.

Jasmine Star (00:09:13) - Okay.

Josh Muccio (00:09:13) - Well, what you don't know is there are 55 lost episodes of the pitch that we did from 2015 to 2017 before we joined gimlet, and those were done with she'll. He was the co-host on the show. But yeah, we thought about republishing those recently and we still might, but they're very different from what the show the Pitch is today and what people have, you know, come to really love the the big problem with that version of the show is it was all done remotely, which should be fine, right? Most podcasts are done remote, except nobody ever invested.

Josh Muccio (00:09:50) - No one, not 55 episodes of the show over two years, and no one ever invested in the companies we had on. And so out of frustration, we were we were ready to throw in the can. And then Lisa had just so Lisa, like, would basically work with me in the evenings, you know, you know, co-founding pair like you're always working on stuff even if, you know, she's working. We've got like three kids at this point. So, you know, she's trying to do the mom thing and help me out with stuff. And she was also a wedding planner, um, on the weekends and doing these big high end weddings here in Sarasota. But then she was like, you know what? I need to step back from this. And so she took that like time from that and realized, hey, I could plan an event for the pitch. Like we could bring everybody in person and see if that makes a difference. And that was kind of the big moment for us, was we held this big recording event out in Silicon Valley with a whole new panel of investors, people who we were like, we need people who actually commit to invest to come in companies.

Josh Muccio (00:10:48) - And that really narrowed the playing field because most venture capitalists were like, no, I'm not going to commit to invest on the spot. That's stupid. So we found those that were cool with that. And, uh, that first season we saw over $1 million committed to companies on our show. So that's kind of the moment we realized, oh, okay, this is the thing. So even the first version of the pitch wasn't even that successful.

Jasmine Star (00:11:12) - Um, so so for people who are catching up with this story now, how many iterations it took to take a preexisting idea, we are somewhat familiar with the Shark Tank and then apply it in an audio setting, and then do 55 episodes before the idea shifts and take shape, and then going from 0 to 1 million in a season. And so if you were to go back and tell Josh when you start that first podcast, well, actually, let's go back to when Sheila approaches you, what would you tell that version of yourself? Knowing what you know now.

Josh Muccio (00:11:51) - Gosh, what wouldn't I tell myself? Oh, I would say, okay. Josh. Uh, being in person actually matters when we're talking about money. I would say, Josh, um. Own your own IP, which is a whole nother thing.

Jasmine Star (00:12:09) - That's going to be part two that we're getting into that we're getting into that. We're getting into that, which I'm okay. Yes.

Josh Muccio (00:12:15) - And the last thing I would say is, Josh, trust your instincts. Like don't assume that other people, just because they come from this amazing background, that they really have the insight that you need. They don't trust your instincts because you know what you're building and you know who you're building it for.

Jasmine Star (00:12:31) - Oh, that's really great foreshadowing, because the next part of this conversation I want to talk about, from a listeners perspective, I had binged the first two seasons I had religiously. Every time the pitch dropped, I was first to hear it. I listened to it in the morning as I got ready, and then it seemed like the pitch went quiet and, um, okay, so this is where I want to talk a little bit about the business of podcasting.

Jasmine Star (00:12:58) - And depending on how much you're comfortable sharing, can you tell us, like you aren't just building a podcast around fundraising and getting funds and investing in businesses. You yourself are running a business, so can you break those two things apart and then tell us a couple things that was happening in the business when a listener, I'm like, I haven't heard from the pitch in a while.

Josh Muccio (00:13:17) - Yeah. So up to that point in time. So the version of the pitch that you discovered was we were entirely owned by Gimlet Media. So we had done that show. We did those 55 episodes with Sheila Minot, and in February of 2017, we sold the show to gimlet. So along with it, we sold the rights to the IP for the back catalogue and the right to continue producing the show. Then they hired me on full time, uh, built the team around me. They actually hired a couple of the contractors that we had working on the show previously, and that was the team that made the pitch at gimlet over.

Josh Muccio (00:13:59) - Four years, I think. Yeah. I don't know if it's three years. I guess it was 2017.

Jasmine Star (00:14:05) - So as the storyteller in me, when this happens, when you when you sell your IP and everything back catalogue to gimlet and then you're hired, like, where are you at? Tell me your emotions. What are you thinking? Are you champagne moment? Are you high fiving is like, where are you at here?

Josh Muccio (00:14:22) - Well, I'll tell you, the downside of building a podcast is it's actually, at least for me, it was rather lonely because it was mostly just me sitting in front of a computer doing all the work, right, running the interviews, editing them in. You know, I think I was using GarageBand or something like that back in the day and, you know, trying to emulate these great shows that I loved. Like I was also a gimlet listener because they launched in 2015. And the show I used to love was startup. It was hosted by Alex Blumberg.

Jasmine Star (00:14:54) - And that's what got me started to.

Josh Muccio (00:14:55) - Yeah, worth listening to if you haven't heard it. And I would try to emulate what they were doing, but for the most part it was just it was just me working in our bedroom, in my house and our studio, trying to make a show take off, trying to create the business around it. And it was just really lonely and isolating, and I didn't have a team of people supporting me. So when gimlet came along and said, yeah, we want to buy your show, we want to distribute it across our network. We want to help it grow and reach. Um, the term they use, like we're going to turn the pitch into a juggernaut. Of course, I was pretty stoked about that, but it was really about just joining a team and feeling like I was a part of something even bigger than just what we were building. And gimlet at that point in time was probably the hottest, um, podcast.

Jasmine Star (00:15:44) - Oh, it was working. Don't don't be humble.

Josh Muccio (00:15:46) - Nobody was talking about it.

Jasmine Star (00:15:47) - It was like, I'm listening. I'm looking at shows like Reply All. Yeah and heavyweight and the pitch. And I'm like, how do they keep on producing these massively successful, truly compelling like setting the bar shows. And so this is me as a listener and I'm watching all of this on the outside. So you're saying it felt good to be part of a team and to do something that was much bigger? And we love the word juggernaut. We do.

Josh Muccio (00:16:12) - Yeah, I love the word juggernaut. There's very few times where I use the word juggernaut. I'd like to use it more in my vocabulary.

Jasmine Star (00:16:18) - So at the end of the show, what we're going to say is, Josh mucho, thank you for coming in and producing a juggernaut of an episode. Uh, okay. So this is where you are then. So we're back in 2017.

Josh Muccio (00:16:30) - Yeah, we're back in 2017. Go ahead.

Jasmine Star (00:16:33) - The team. No no no no no. The team is getting around you. You're doing great and powerful things.

Jasmine Star (00:16:39) - And then what happens?

Josh Muccio (00:16:41) - So we produced, uh, eight episodes. Sorry. No, sorry. Eight seasons of the show over three years from 2017 to 2019. And, uh, I learned a ton. Got to work with some of the most talented producers and hosts and teams, uh, in the business. It was really incredible. The thing that I thought was true was that everybody else was going to tell me how to run my show better, and to take this, like, gem of an idea and make it spectacular, when really they were just there to support me and help me make it great. But they expected me to continue to drive the vision and and run the show, which, um, should have been obvious to me. Like whenever you have a creative run, you know, business like this, whether you're a podcast host or like probably the, you know, the teams at Disney that like make amazing movie after amazing movie for for decades on end or like the Pixar team like any time like it's the people in the room that make the stuff amazing.

Josh Muccio (00:17:46) - And it's a lot of times the people right at the top that set the vision, that then the rest of the team can execute on. So, you know, inside of gimlet, it wasn't like, uh, Alex Blumberg with the vision and everybody else had to fall in line. It was like each team was responsible for carrying their own, their own team and like, pushing the envelope. And that, you know, was hard because, like, you had some teams that didn't really want to work with others. Some teams thought they were better than the other shows. And so there were certainly problems with that. And I wish that that had been handled better. But at the same time, within each team, you had such autonomy so much, you could take so many risks as a team and try out new concepts. And so that's why you saw really incredible shows like Heavyweight and Reply All and stolen. Um, I mean Crime Town, uh, gosh, I missed it. There's so many science verses.

Josh Muccio (00:18:43) - Yeah, yeah, every little thing.

Jasmine Star (00:18:44) - Wendy Zuckerman yeah. And then what was the hip hop one? I listened to the hip hop one two mogul. Yes. I'm literally telling you, when whatever gimlet produced, you understood that there was a a production value. You understood that there was. But you from a listener. Josh, you understood that it felt like clear autonomy and a very pointed point of view. And so then what happens with from an outsider's perspective is that it's acquired by Spotify.

Josh Muccio (00:19:12) - Yeah. In 2019.

Jasmine Star (00:19:13) - And so, uh, so you're producing your show eight seasons in three years to 2019. What happens then from your perspective as a creator?

Josh Muccio (00:19:25) - Yeah. So our show comes on to Spotify. And at first nothing changed. Uh, we were told nothing would change. Of course it did. Uh, nobody really believed them when they said nothing would change. And I remember audiences getting really upset when we were bought by Spotify. They felt like the leadership at gimlet had sold out.

Josh Muccio (00:19:46) - And I think to be on the inside, it was both a really amazing thing and horrible at the same time. It was amazing in that, you know, we all had options like we had been given, you know, stock options and gimlet and then those converted into real money. I mean, so often stock options, you know, don't end up turning into anything because they're at the very bottom of the preferences for, you know, shareholders like investors take precedence. But we you know, it was a good exit for people involved in Gimlet Media. And they had raised not a lot of venture capital, but some. But at the end of the day, like as an employee, we were rewarded for all of the work and all of the IP that we helped create over those two years. But then, you know, being a part of a tech company is just very different than being a part of a media company. The incentives are very different. You know, we came into it thinking we would have a deeper understanding of who our listeners were.

Josh Muccio (00:20:43) - We thought we would get more data around who they are because Spotify has all this data. And in theory, yes, there was more data, but I never saw any of that, and I never got to use that in any meaningful way to create better episodes of the show, which at the end of the day, like when you're making a great podcast, you just want to make more great stuff that your audience loves. And so unfortunately, a lot of you know, I can't really get into the details, but, you know, a lot of the policy changes that ended up going down once we were a part of Spotify, um, just made it harder to create the show that we loved because there incentives were just a little bit different than ours. Um, you know, our incentive was just to have as many people as possible listen to the great work that we put so much time into making. Their incentive was to get more paying subscribers onto Spotify. So there were a, you know, countless ways in which those things clashed.

Josh Muccio (00:21:37) - But also, I think the macro of this is that, you know, Spotify was buying a bunch of podcast companies. They were trying to make a big splash. And so we were just, you know, their flavor of the week for a period of time. And we thought they we thought that they were, that we were going to be their darling, you know, and that we were going to propel the growth and strategy of podcasts of their own, you know, original podcast division inside of Spotify. Um, of course, how that played out was very, very different than that. I don't know if you saw the news, but I think one of the last two gimlet shows were canceled, uh, two days ago.

Jasmine Star (00:22:14) - Really?

Josh Muccio (00:22:15) - Yeah. Stolen. And, um, crime town? No, not crime town. Um, the heavyweight Jonathan Goldstein's show.

Jasmine Star (00:22:22) - Really?

Josh Muccio (00:22:23) - Yeah.

Jasmine Star (00:22:24) - What a shame, because I love his show. Yeah, I love his show. Yeah, I.

Josh Muccio (00:22:29) - Was getting texts from my mom this morning about it.

Josh Muccio (00:22:31) - She's like, I'm so upset.

Jasmine Star (00:22:33) - So am I. I mean, there's times where I'm driving and I'm like, it's me and Jonathan in the car, and I'm just crying because it's not because. Not because it's emotional. But what you hear is audible art. And I don't know how else to explain it, though. He's a master storyteller about the minutia of life and intriguing human interest stories like there's no other way to explain it. It's just, well, it feels.

Josh Muccio (00:22:53) - So human and so just natural and in a quirky way that feels so relatable.

Jasmine Star (00:22:59) - Absolutely. But absolutely.

Josh Muccio (00:23:01) - Jonathan is that way in person. I remember running into him into the elevator and he asked instead of saying hello, he was just like, uh, I don't even know what he referenced, but he referenced some like, obscure show from the 80s. And I was like, okay. And I'm sure whatever he said was hilarious to him. I had no idea that was like my one and only interaction with Jonathan Goldstein.

Jasmine Star (00:23:29) - Well, it makes me it just makes me more endeared to him.

Josh Muccio (00:23:32) - So I hope he can find a place to take that show. That's one thing that they mentioned is that Spotify was open to selling it, hopefully. Uh, they do they do actually let him take it somewhere else.

Jasmine Star (00:23:44) - Absolutely. As they should. So let's go back to 2019. What happens then where you realize, okay, not exactly what we had anticipated, and despite our best efforts, we wanted to be the darling and we just weren't. So what what is happening here from a business perspective? From your business perspective?

Josh Muccio (00:24:00) - Yeah, 2019 was actually pretty good because none of the changes had started happening yet. Um, for the most part, we continued running gimlet the way it had been run. 2020 was a different story for many, many reasons, and I think the biggest hit to us was not actually any policy inside of Spotify. It was just that, you know, Covid shut everything down and Spotify shut down the studios.

Josh Muccio (00:24:28) - So a lot of shows continued. They just did stuff remotely and and we continued for a period of time, but we were just basically doing reruns of episodes and we would do call in shows. I don't know if you were listening during this time.

Jasmine Star (00:24:39) - Oh, I was, but we were.

Josh Muccio (00:24:41) - Scraping the barrel, you know, trying to come up with a format of our show that listeners would enjoy. But we couldn't do the pitch, as the pitch was known, like we couldn't bring people together into a room and, you know, filing people into a room, uh, you know, six founders a day into a room full of, you know, five investors, like cycling them in three days in a row to do that. It's kind of a recipe to spread, um, pathogens. So. So, yeah, we did not get to record any new episodes. And so at the end of 2020, the studios were still closed. It didn't look like they were going to close them or open them up anytime soon.

Josh Muccio (00:25:19) - And so we had to hit pause on the show. And that was both really good because I got to take some time off. I was extremely burnt out just to see being a part of a fast, high growth media company, a startup in many ways. And, you know, having all of that pressure being, you know, publicly in the in the limelight and trying to to manage all of that. It was it was just a lot. And so and then of course 2020 I was stressful for everyone. But basically in 2021, I didn't have anything to do and so bought some chickens. I started farming, I learned how to brew my own beer, uh, took as well a few trips as much as we could when most things were shut down still. And, uh, yeah, it was it was like my own little sabbatical that, uh, I hadn't really planned on, but it was amazing. And, uh, I now know what it's like to to retire. And six months of retirement is amazing.

Josh Muccio (00:26:17) - And then month seven, I just got so bored. You're dead. I was like, I just I need to work, I need to I need something to give me some more purpose, you know? Um, but at the same time, it was like, the helpful thing is, like, my identity was wrapped up in the show for so long, like, I was the pitch. And I felt like that was the thing that made me valuable to people. And I think having that taken away for a period of time, um, even though it was voluntary, like it still it it was hard. It just like I felt like I was kind of I was floundering for a while and eventually it was like, okay, no, I'm not, you know, the pitch is not my identity. But at the same time, like, um, I was trying to figure out what was next, and I didn't. It took us a long time to figure it out.

Jasmine Star (00:27:06) - So when you're there and you're going back and you're realizing that your identity is tied very closely to the work that you're producing, and you take a step back.

Jasmine Star (00:27:16) - When you decide or when you're able to. What shifts? How? How do you see the business of what you do differently after having taken a step back? What change is manifest?

Josh Muccio (00:27:26) - I think I don't even know what it is. It was basically I was just letting go of essentially a I thought that the pitch was me and that that was what gave me importance in the market. And I realized that that was just completely a lie. Like whatever I was doing, I would be giving that thing. I would be the one making that thing important. Like whatever my time is spent on, that's what makes it valuable. And so it was not the pitch giving me value, but it was completely the other way around. And I know that maybe doesn't sound like a huge paradigm shift, but for me, that was, uh, that was everything. So then it was like, all right, what what is next that, that I'm going to do and I'm not thinking about, oh, there's this pressure because the pitch is the last thing I did like.

Josh Muccio (00:28:17) - It was just like, I'm going to let that go. And whatever I do next, like it's going to be great because I'm going to be working on it. And it wasn't even about the success metrics of what other people said about the thing. Does that make sense?

Jasmine Star (00:28:29) - Totally. And I've been there. This is why I was asking. I do understand that there has to be an uncoupling of your personal brand, your personal identity in the business itself. So that's why I asked. So you decide to to do what with the show. When you say, okay, it's I've let it go, but obviously you have it. So tell us the transition. Yeah.

Josh Muccio (00:28:52) - So then in early 2022 we realize. So during this time off I kept thinking about okay, what's the next thing I'm going to do. We basically decided, all right, I guess the pitch is not it. We're just going to let the pitch die. And every idea I would come up with, every business idea that I would get excited about, it was just like, oh, but if I have the pitch back, that's how I this is how I would launch the thing.

Josh Muccio (00:29:18) - It was just like everything. It was like, oh, I would launch this product for entrepreneurs. Oh, if I only had the show, if I publish with the show and I like promoted the thing, like it could be really great. Like I have this amazing audience and it just like thing after thing. It was like every idea would be better if I had the pitch back. And one of them was to start a fund and to start investing in companies, similar to how the investors in our show invest in companies. But it was there was enough or it was just like, all right, the pitch needs to be ours again. We need to bring this show back. Of course, listeners this whole time where like, you know, asking us what's happening and I wasn't sure and I, I felt like I couldn't I don't know, I'd been so honest with listeners up to that point, but I felt like I couldn't be honest about this thing where I wasn't sure if the show would come back or not, and if I had known for sure that we were ending it, I could have come in and say, this show's over.

Josh Muccio (00:30:12) - I'm so sorry, but I couldn't even do that. So I was just silent for like a year and a half. And then when we decided, like, okay, we want to bring the show back, we talked to Spotify and they were like, okay, we don't want to bring it back. Here at Spotify, budgets are constrained where like letting go of shows. And, you know, this whole process has been of basically unloading all of the assets that they bought with gimlet has been ongoing for a couple of years now. And so I was like, well, what if I bought the show from you guys and just took it independent and they were like, oh yeah, yeah, we could do that. I was like, oh, really? And so we did. I mean, it took a couple of months to come to a deal, but we bought the show from Spotify, took it independent, and uh, pretty quickly after that partnered with another network, Vox Media. They, you know, produce and distribute shows like Recode and Pivot and Prophecy and a bunch of other also great podcasts, but very different from gimlet.

Josh Muccio (00:31:13) - And yeah, we partnered with them this time, so we didn't sell the IP and relaunched our show in 20 was June of 2022 and launched a fund around the same time.

Jasmine Star (00:31:26) - So okay, so this is where I want to pick up part three of this story. But before we do that, yeah, I think that the business question comes up for me is when you decide to buy back from Spotify. So gimlet sells to Spotify. So, uh, venture backed media company sells to mega tech company. Then small business owner creator wants to buy from Spotify. Can you connect the dots? Because it seems like that's a, you know, a David and Goliath type thing. And like, how much liquid cash are you sitting on? Like, what does that even look like? Like when I think about buying a podcast, like, how were you intimidated? Like, what does that even look like?

Josh Muccio (00:32:08) - Like because I'd already sold it to gimlet a few years ago. So like, which at the time, that was kind of a big deal because people are like, what? You can sell a podcast.

Josh Muccio (00:32:16) - It's like, well, yeah, it's an audience. Like people buy and sell audiences all the time. Um, I don't know. You know, it did seem strange at the time for podcasts because it felt so nascent. It was felt like, you know, people in their garage like, you know, recording a thing. And, um, who would want to buy that? You know, um, but it turns out certain properties are really valuable and are is because it's in the business niche. Advertisers really like to advertise on business shows because it drives incredible ROI. And so our show was profitable inside of gimlet. So, yeah, I mean, all of those things don't make sense as to why they would let it go. But, I mean, it was weird. Things were happening inside of Spotify. They. Oh, yeah, they they're a tech company that bought a media company and didn't, didn't really know how to run a media company. So, um, anyway, yeah, I mean, buying the show was just like a it was just a series of conversations like they can't do anything with it.

Josh Muccio (00:33:15) - They're not like I'm the host of the show. I mean, they could like, buy another, you know, put somebody else in there, but like, they weren't going to do anything with it, so they might as well sell it to me.

Jasmine Star (00:33:24) - So in that sense, like in the business sense, did you have a better negotiating like position? Yeah. When it came to buying it back from them, you're like, as of now, what I've learned is my value isn't derived from the show, but essentially my my value is the show. And so sure, you don't want to sell it to me, no problem. I'm going to go out and do my own thing anyway. And so did you. Did you say like you like you stand to make a sale and I'm okay walking away? Like, how did that affect the way that negotiations happened?

Josh Muccio (00:33:55) - I mean, I think like, um, I don't really know because it was just, you know, their lawyer talking to my lawyer.

Josh Muccio (00:34:03) - Okay. You know, okay. I had friends inside of gimlet who basically helped vouch for me and helped put in a good word. Right? Because, like, I think the the biggest concern is that we put in a request to buy the show, and they completely ignored us, but they didn't ignore us because of basically, we had friends inside of gimlet who.

Jasmine Star (00:34:23) - Were great.

Josh Muccio (00:34:23) - Going to bat for.

Jasmine Star (00:34:24) - Us. So yes, your network is your net worth. So I want to tell I want to tell now from a listeners perspective, it's 2021, right? When you guys come back.

Josh Muccio (00:34:33) - We, uh, 2022.

Jasmine Star (00:34:35) - 2022, this was just so you come back in 2022 and you come back in a big way and you come back with a fund. Now, I remember seeing the show pop up in my feed and I'm like, they're back. And then I had to wrap my mind around how the show is different and what it meant for you to come out with a fund. So can you explain the fund in like, explain it like I'm five because I want people to be a part of this journey.

Jasmine Star (00:35:02) - And then I want to tell listeners that I inserted myself in this part of the story. So, yeah, you're playing the story now. Okay.

Josh Muccio (00:35:10) - So yeah, the the story of the fund. I mean, it's it's very simple. Basically we just like a stock market, like money Manager would take a bunch of companies that he thinks he or she thinks is a good investment and bundles them all together and then says, hey, Jasmine, this is what I'm doing with your money. You're invested in all of these companies. I do the same thing in the private market. So with companies, early stage startups that are just getting their companies off the ground, they hope to someday be the next Facebook, the next Uber, the next, uh, Twitter, you know, whatever. Like they're trying to change the world. And the best way they think to change the world is to use their company to build something that tons and tons of people to use. And so we try to identify who those people are and invest in their companies.

Josh Muccio (00:35:59) - And it's not like a stock market where you can, like, actively trade these things. You buy in once. It's not a liquid investment at all. It takes basically ten or more years for these companies to mature and to hopefully build something of value. But, uh, it's a very unique asset class that, uh, you know, when done right, can actually outperform the stock market. So that's we basically took all of the information that we learned running the show, working with venture capitalists. Uh, who were the panelists, the investors on our show for all those years and really being able to go back and look at what were the good investments they make, they made on our show and learn from that, uh, was essentially the thesis for starting the fund. But what was so cool is like most funds start and they they pitch institutions, they pitch family offices, right? They pitch high net worth individuals. And they just like, pound the pavement trying to raise the fund. We did not do any of that.

Josh Muccio (00:36:55) - We just published an episode where we told the story of what had happened at the pitch the past couple of years. This was in episode 101. Josh pitches the pitch and we asked our audience if they would like to invest, which used to be illegal a few years ago, but the SEC changed some stuff and now, you know, you check a few boxes and you can publicly raise. And so we were able to raise our fund. Um, we're tracking, um, towards raising about $4.5 million in our first fund, and it's raised entirely from listeners of our show.

Jasmine Star (00:37:28) - Okay. So let me pause here and break this down in the most simplest of terms, back when gimlet was it wasn't acquired by Spotify. Um, I was listening to a show called startup, and they gave, for a brief amount of time, the ability to invest in gimlet. Listen, did you invest? Well, what I didn't know at the time was I was like, I'm going to invest and I was going to invest because I just loved everything about it.

Jasmine Star (00:37:56) - And I believed in it because I was a massive consumer. And I'm like, if there are people like me, then it's going to be hands down the best investment that I could ever make. Now, there were times in the past, Josh, where I missed out on these very blatant opportunities where I live in Southern California, and there was a store that descended from Canada called Lululemon. Now, we say that now. But when there was like a line of women outside the door, my husband had asked me, do you know what that is? He's like, do you think we should buy stock? And I'm like, no, that's just for crazy women who really like to work out. And next thing I know, I was one of those crazy women standing in line. And I swore by these hands, you know, like, you see these, like. Other coffee shops see these opportunities. So I just knew I was like, oh, gimlet is my future Lululemon. I didn't know at the time that we had to create an Angel list account, and it took a long time for it to, like, be approved or go through.

Jasmine Star (00:38:43) - So I was like, I'm going to invest in gimlet. And when they had announced it, it was that day that I decided to go through and create an Angel list account. Yeah. Or profile. And I was far too late. They sold out like less than, less than a day. And I was like, that is my greatest regret. And so then, you know, now I, you know, I went through the angel list process. And so when the pitch comes back and says, we're raising a fund, I have to be honest, I didn't understand what a fund was. And so this is back in 2022. I mean like, gosh, it's like, oh yeah, Jasmine, this is like two years ago. But hey, I'm just letting you know this has been my journey. And it was different than what gimlet was asking for. Now on show 101, Josh pitches a pitch. You were very candid that you were getting a little bit of heat from different people asking, well, does that change the nature of the show? Since the show has a vested interest in these entrepreneurs who are pitching, does that change? And I remember listening and this were I this is where as a business owner, I'm looking at this as saying there is a multitude of funds.

Jasmine Star (00:39:48) - If you have money and you want to invest in a fund, which basically means somebody else will be making investments on your behalf and your patient enough 8 to 10 years to see how that actually played out for you. I can go anywhere. Yeah, but I am choosing a fund based on somebody I trust. And that came on the back of listening to a show again and again. And I talked to my husband and I said, we need to get into this fund because whatever we invest in, invest in the fund, it will be less than what I would have paid for an MBA to learn everything I have learned. So even if even if it's a bust, even if it's a bust, I just paid for the investment of education that I had learned. And I will say that in order to invest in the fund at what was the minimum to invest in the fund. Josh?

Josh Muccio (00:40:31) - Uh 10,000.

Jasmine Star (00:40:32) - Mhm. And so I reach out to you and at this point I actually think the fund is like a popularity contest.

Jasmine Star (00:40:39) - I'm like, I need to pitch myself to be a part of the fund. And so I remember emailing not you, but like it was like I don't know, like the pitch at the pitch or something like that. It was like a corporate email. Oh, was it okay? And I was just like, so I'm essentially telling myself, I'm like, I think that I could be a value add because I would love to help the pitch grow on social and expand its reach. I'm literally begging to be a part of the fund. Yeah, and I remember this. And it led to a conversation that I had an opportunity to meet with you and Lisa, and we had a great conversation about what it would mean to grow the pitch socially, and that was that. Now, what I want to do is I want to bring everybody up to speed with October 2023. Can I read something? Yeah. Okay. Hi, Jasmine. As an active investor in the fund and the Genesis and Tether SPV, I'd like to personally invite you to join me, Lisa and the rest of our team at The Pitch Miami.

Jasmine Star (00:41:32) - We only have room for ten people to join us on January 11th or 12th, so I wanted to open up to LPs first before we open it up to the general public next week. This is our first ever VIP experience and invite only where Hand-picking apex of a mix of LPs, angel investors and VCs to join us at the studio. The idea is to give a few of our most active LPs the chance to meet founders on our show at the earliest possible moment, and then we will host a special dinner in the evening. For investors, the cost is and we can talk about the cost or not. I wanted to not put that up, I don't care. Sure. Okay. The cost is $3,000 and includes lunch, dinner, snacks and a full day of live recorded pitches with your peers, the pitch team and investors of the show. So how would you like to join us at the pitch? Miami. Um, I am telling you, Josh, I'm trying to be such a professional podcaster right now and I am battling a cold Josh and I am like, keep it together woman.

Jasmine Star (00:42:23) - You will not cough into this microphone and I am sucking on this cough drop. And so people are going to be listening like, is she chewing a taco? No y'all, I'm trying to keep it together. I read this email in our kitchen and I can't even get the word out. I can't even finish half the email because I turned to my husband, my business partner, my high school sweetheart, the guy who believes in big dreams. And I'm like, we're going to Miami. And he turned to me. He's like, what? I'm like, no, no, no, we're going to drink Cubanos and we're going to be on South Beach, baby. And we're going to go to this. And he's like, wait, what are you talking about? So I explain and he says, $3,000. And he said, do you want to know the ROI on $3,000? I get to sit and watch. Not one, but five companies do something that maybe, maybe in the future or maybe not.

Jasmine Star (00:43:08) - I am getting a front row freaking seat to see how the game is freaking played. The game, which is traditionally. And I'll just come out and say it not been all that inclusive to women, underrepresented groups and people of color. The amount of Latinas who ever get to pitch to investor, the amount of people who get to pitch, but the amount of people who. Funding is less than 1.5% for Latina and female founders. The fact that I get to see in the room and be in there and watch, how do I play this game and how do I find a way to win, if that's ever something I so decide to do? So he says, let's go in. That's it. I respond to that email and then a few days later, can I read something else? Yes. Okay. Sure.

Josh Muccio (00:43:52) - I'm like, what are you gonna say now?

Jasmine Star (00:43:53) - I know no, it's. What do I say now? Josh? Okay. Okay, good. Hi, Josh. Happy Monday, and I hope you're gearing up for an amazing Halloween.

Jasmine Star (00:44:02) - My daughter made a special request for our family to dress like her favorite story, little Red Riding Hood. She said she wanted to be the wolf. A girl after my own heart. Two questions. Would I be able to create a vlog about my experience going to the Pit Show? It would be a behind the scenes look at why I was invited, what I find valuable as attending, and what I will have learned. I'll be sharing it on my social channels as well as my newsletter. A total combined reach of over a million people. I would like to take a handheld camera for video clips, but I'd be discreet and not intrude on recording endeavors. Number two, would you be interested on being a guest on my podcast? I'd like to talk to you about your entrepreneurial journey in the show. Let me know what you think. Both one or none of the options is totally fine with me, but if there's one thing you need to know about me, it's that I love to create synergy, magic, and expansion with content I'd be honored to co-create with you and Josh.

Jasmine Star (00:44:51) - That is what leads us here today. So I want to say thank you for that.

Josh Muccio (00:44:55) - Oh yeah, that was an easy answer. We're very excited to have you at the event. Yes.

Jasmine Star (00:44:59) - And here is the beautiful thing about this, for people who are watching or listening is if you have your chance to shoot your shot, shoot your shot. I was completely unattached because the win I had already won, I got into the room. I am a get in the room kind of girl, and if the door is closed to me, I'll find a window. I'll break off the roof. And little did I realize that making an investment into a fund that I believed in, based on a personal brand and trust that was built over year after year after year. So I get into the room and so I'm like, what do I have to lose? Nothing. And here's the best, most surprising part is that this podcast serves as a podcast. It also serves as a video, but it serves as a testament of what is to come.

Jasmine Star (00:45:39) - Because I will be creating a vlog and I will be citing these things. And unbeknownst to me, I get an email from Lisa, Josh's better half. Let's be real. And she says that's true. Do you think that you would be able to share some of your video clips with our team? And so here I thought more synergy, more magic, more co-creation. Yeah. And so this is why I wanted to have the show. Josh, I really wanted to document the journey of you as an entrepreneur, the journey of your ability to first and foremost listen, that the thing that you're doing now might not be the thing, but it could lead to the thing. And then I want to talk with the entrepreneurial journey about co-creating. And then when things don't turn out the way that you had expected, and then letting go of the lie that you were the most valuable thing to the business, and that the business was the most valuable thing about you. And once you uncoupled those two things and you understood that you could do whatever you have done before, but better and in less time, you then go out and say, I'm going to bet on myself in a way that I never have before.

Jasmine Star (00:46:39) - I will retain the IP, we'll find a partner, and then we're going to do it better. We're going to do it different. And despite the outward opinions about how the show will change, you still know what is best for the show and what is best for listeners, and what is best for business owners who are raising funds. And from an outsider's perspective, as a viewer and a listener, I find it so valuable that the investors on the show, you really aim for diversity, that people who are pitching the show, it is a wild misrepresentation of what is actually happening in venture capital in Silicon Valley, because there are every color of the rainbow, every gender disabilities, and not women, men, everything under the rainbow. And I listen to this and I say, you guys are creating the future of what venture capital should and will be. And so I want to be a part of that. And I want to take my listeners and people on YouTube and just be like, I'm documenting the journey.

Jasmine Star (00:47:29) - I want to say thank you for that. Thank you for making a fund for this brown girl to get a front row seat to what it actually looks like. So thank you, thank you.

Josh Muccio (00:47:37) - You're welcome. We're psyched. We are so happy to have you come and join us at Miami. I mean, like, this is why we started the fund. It's like we really believed that we had incredible people listening to the show, and the only way we'd ever worked with them was to say, listen to the show, and we're going to make money off of ads, you know, like, it's like there was no relationship with our customer other than you listen when we publish stuff. And so we were just really looking for ways to actually engage with our audience in a deeper way. And the fund made more sense to us than just like starting a Patreon or doing something like that, which is, you know, the typical, uh, the typical podcast path. So, yeah, I mean, and Josh, have.

Jasmine Star (00:48:19) - You seen this? I mean.

Josh Muccio (00:48:20) - We're we're.

Jasmine Star (00:48:20) - Closing the conversation. I mean, we are going to close the conversation, but there is something I have not seen this done anywhere else. No, I'm not saying that you guys are like. Unicorns. The first to ever think this way, but you guys are definitely the 1% of people who are doing this, which is fascinating to me. You guys are creating an entirely different monetization model, so different than what other people are doing. How is that working and enclosing for people who are interested in the fund? And can you explain the difference between a fund and an SPV? Because I didn't know those differences and how I've been able to extend in closing and closing?

Josh Muccio (00:48:51) - Yeah. I mean, people can join us. We still have a couple spots left at the pitch. We've got like lots of LPs coming, still looking for we've got a few VCs coming, but still open to just some angel investors in the general public who'd like to come. I mean, the idea is that, like, you know, if you're interested in investing in these companies, like, what better place to be than to meet the founders the moment they're pitching the VCs on our show? Like there's no greater access that I mean, you're getting these same access that the VCs in our show get.

Josh Muccio (00:49:18) - So anyway, I don't need to pitch it. You, you know, people know, but yeah, it's called I think the website is the pitch event.com where people can express interest in joining us in Miami. Um, oh, the difference between the fund and an SPV. So an SPV is just a I wish they called it something else. Um, it's basically just like a deal. Like it's like you can invest in this company. The deal is Genesis, this company we had on our show, you can invest in Gemini. But what an SPV is specifically is it's a basically a business entity that's created that allows a bunch of people to pool their money together and then invest one big check in the company, because actually, it's quite hard for an early stage founder to basically sell shares to a bunch of different investors. Like it's it's just really difficult to do like it's there's so much paperwork, so much back and forth. You know, terms have to be negotiated on for every single one. It's just it's just dumb.

Josh Muccio (00:50:24) - So, so basically you pull everybody together and then basically like we as the fund managers host this SPV and negotiate on your behalf to get allocation in these, in these deals so that, you know, basically, you know, and someone like you can put in a thousand, 2000, $10,000 into a company if they want.

Jasmine Star (00:50:46) - Okay. So as the listener is listening, I want to break this down as simple as possible. So JD and I invested in the Pitch Show fund. And so part of the money from the fund they invested in a company called Gems. We're not going to get into it. Go and listen to the gems episode. It's pretty fascinating. Now, as part of us being a part of the fund, Josh and the team get to invest however they best see fit. Now there is also an SPV. This means that any investor on the show that JD and I listened to, and we really like that business idea, we get to put more money into that particular business outside of the fund.

Jasmine Star (00:51:20) - And so I want to explain why we chose the gems, because it was the first time in my entire life that I had ever heard of a vertical SaaS solution. And Josh, I, I invested in the company because I liked her as a founder, but I learned so much about what she was doing that I'm like, if nothing else, this is my tip, my hat to you doing the dang thing. And I get to get a front row seat to what it is you're doing. And so to me, I want to say thank you for democratizing what was otherwise. It felt like a black box and giving people like me the opportunity to get in and learn business from actual business owners, doing the dang thing in the mud, missing a tooth, a punctured rib, a broken arm and matted hair and get up. You say, okay, one more time, Josh, how do people find you and the pitch online?

Josh Muccio (00:52:06) - Uh, we are just the pitch on every podcast app there is the pitch.

Josh Muccio (00:52:12) - You should be able to find us. Uh, it's this big blue cover art with the words the pitch on it. And I'm not super active on social. I am on LinkedIn. Probably more active there than anywhere else. Um, but basically, shout out.

Jasmine Star (00:52:24) - Give a shout out to the YouTube channel. We got to give a shout out to YouTube. Oh yeah, we're producing it big time.

Josh Muccio (00:52:29) - Yeah, the Pitch show we just launched that last year. Yeah, the first episode actually was the gymnast episode. It was so, yeah, y'all seem to really like seeing the show.

Jasmine Star (00:52:39) - It is. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. Do you.

Josh Muccio (00:52:42) - Watch it?

Jasmine Star (00:52:43) - I, I'm I've always been audio girl. I've always been audio. And so that's mostly how I listen to it. But every so often when I want to see the founder. So okay, I'm going to totally nerd out. I can't believe I'm saying this. I'm glad it's at the end of the episode. I actually like looking at body language when the investors are asking hard questions, and I am actually looking at the time, duration of facial expressions, body language, and how long it's taking for them to respond to the question.

Jasmine Star (00:53:08) - Because I, I'm I'm a watcher. And so if I'm looking at the body language, if I'm looking at the face, I need to know, how do I possess that same type of power that I hear audibly? Because visual is a major distraction in human human interaction. So I hear the audio and I could hear the palpable pain, discomfort, awkwardness of it. But how does it come across conveyed? That is something that I need to master. In the videos help me do that. So whenever I hear it, that's when I would go back and look at the visual of it.

Josh Muccio (00:53:31) - Is there anything that surprised you in watching the show that you didn't expect?

Jasmine Star (00:53:36) - Um, yeah. The, um, the the gentleman, the the product designer for Apple, the one that does the touch like the pointing.

Josh Muccio (00:53:44) - Yeah.

Jasmine Star (00:53:46) - So I knew that he had, um, for all intents and purposes, he had said he had a disability. Yeah. So I wanted to know how his disability, how did he approach the mic? How did the disability, um, convey itself in front of an investor? So somebody with a physical disadvantage when investing, how did he leverage it so powerfully as an advantage? Audibly, you heard it palpable.

Jasmine Star (00:54:06) - I was like, this guy is unmissable with like unstoppable. I would, you know, I just want I just want to throw money at him. And, um, how he showed up on camera was very different than what I heard the power in his voice. And I said, Jasmine, how might you possess the same power and confidence in your voice, despite how you might feel on the outside? And that was like a big lesson for me. So I'm a consummate learner. I'm a studier, Josh. I'm a studier.

Josh Muccio (00:54:29) - Yeah. No, that's super helpful for me. Thank you.

Jasmine Star (00:54:32) - Oh. Thank you. Um, y'all, the pitch on every podcasting outlet to get to know more about what they are doing, you can connect with Josh on LinkedIn, check out the pitch on YouTube, and y'all be sure to follow both of our subscribe to both of our YouTube channels, because I want you guys to get a behind the scenes look at what it looks like from a viewer and participator and investors perspective.

Jasmine Star (00:54:55) - Thank you for the listening to The Jasmine Star Show. If you have found that at all interesting, please make sure to leave a review. We are indebted to them and I appreciate you being on this journey thousand times over. Thank you again to listen to The Jasmine Star Show.