Jasmine Star (00:00:01) - Welcome back to The Jasmine Star Show. And just before we hit record, the one, the only Heather Hanson and I have just we've connected. We're like sisters from different misters. I couldn't be more excited today to talk about the word, being an advocate. Now, before you kind of ask yourself what it means to be an advocate and how one advocates for himself, I want to peel us back a little tiny bit. Because this business is focused on podcasting. It's focusing on building businesses, and it's focusing on marketing and branding. And I've always said that a brand is what somebody says about you when you're not in the room, and a brand begins when you walk into a room. So I want to peel back a little bit. For longtime listeners and watchers of the podcast, you will know that I invite people on the podcast who I know personally or have experienced personally, and then every so often, there's a 0.01% person who will come into my life and I'm like, I'm going to make that person my friend.

Jasmine Star (00:01:10) - Heather Hanson, welcome to the Jasmine Star Show. You are my future friend. You just don't know it yet.

Heather Hansen (00:01:15) - Oh, I know it. I absolutely know it because I feel the exact same way. I'm so happy to be here. I'm delighted.

Jasmine Star (00:01:20) - Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now I want to bring the audience into my level of fandom. Okay. So I'm an avid podcast listener, and I was listening to a podcast called World's First Podcast with Aaron and Sarah Foster, and in comes this lightning bolt from New York City. And you start talking about the words, the tools, how we ask for things that we want. And I'm going to go out and extend it a little further, how we ask for things that we deserve. So I want to start off, there was also a recent post on Instagram. Now after that podcast, I became a superfan. I'm following you. I'm consuming. I'm listening to you on other podcasts now. There was a recent post and then it was a carousel slide and it said three lessons from the courtroom that apply to Your Business.

Jasmine Star (00:02:08) - So as a law school dropout, I have to tell you the way that you process, the way that you are so clear. And so I'm going to start with that. The three lessons, everybody has their jury number two facts tell story sell advocates win and we're three. You can't prove it until you believe it. So before we get into your origin story, I actually want to start here. Like what? When somebody says, I want to win, I want to win at life. I want to build a building my business. I want to ask for the job that I deserve. I want to ask for things from my partner. How do we get here? How do we win?

Heather Hansen (00:02:43) - It starts with that number three, which is you can't prove it until you believe it. You have got to get in full belief that you deserve that thing you want from your partner. That you can have that thing that you want from your partner, that you have created the value to exchange for that thing you want from your partner.

Heather Hansen (00:02:59) - Or if we move to your job, or if you are a founder, that you deserve the money that you're asking for, that product you've created, that you deserve and have created the value in exchange, you have got to fully believe in yourself and what you're offering before you go out and try to ask people to give you money, time, resources, attention in exchange. And once you're in full belief and we can talk about how to get there, then you can move on to those other two, which is knowing your jury. Who is it that you're asking? Is it a young man? Is it an older woman? Are they where do they live? What is their background? The same way that I look at a jury in the courtroom, and I want to know as much as I can about each jury member before we begin. You want to do the same there. So it starts with what I call your inner jury, which is the part of you that listens to all the voices in your head and decides which voice to believe, and then it moves on to your outer jury, which listens to you and decides whether or not to believe.

Jasmine Star (00:03:55) - Okay, so for people who were not avid watchers of like law and order, like every time I hear dundun, I'm like, yes, my life is walking through New York City, like prosecuting and defending people simultaneously. So people hear this and they're like, okay, juries like, no, this is not my thing. I don't watch court TV. So what we're essentially saying is that there are a group of people, our voices, our audience that live inside. Yes. And so what I hear a lot from business owners specifically is I don't have enough time. I don't have enough education. It all feels very overwhelming. It's taking so long. And so I'm going to repeat back what I heard. We first have to listen to these thoughts and then personify them. These are a group of people who are saying lies. And so we have to convince them first.

Heather Hansen (00:04:38) - Yes. The way that I think about it is just a little bit different than, please, that is the attorney for the other side.

Heather Hansen (00:04:44) - There is an attorney in your brain making the case that you aren't good enough, that you aren't smart enough, that you're too big, too small, too smart, too dumb, what are too old, too young? And that attorney, I actually picture it as one of the negative attorneys I was once up against. And that attorney is making a case that you aren't enough. Your inner jury is only hearing that case, your inner jury, their only job, your inner jury, he she they their only job is to decide what to believe. And if all they hear. Is this negative attorney saying, you can't do it, then you've lost your job is to make the case for the other side. Okay?

Jasmine Star (00:05:22) - So you have in your mind this other attorney who once existed in your life. Now for me, because I was never in trial whatsoever, I could name that other attorney. Absolutely. Like we can name. Okay. Absolutely.

Heather Hansen (00:05:35) - You can name it. It could be a number of people in a different situation.

Heather Hansen (00:05:38) - It could be someone you've had in your past life who have said that to you. You can personify that voice however you want to. Okay. But it is. You cannot let that voice be the only voice that has the opportunity to persuade you what to believe.

Jasmine Star (00:05:52) - So today, for the sake of this conversation, that please don't be offended for anybody who's name of Rhonda. The name Rhonda just came to me. So so the attorney Rhonda is saying, you know what, Jasmine? I don't know if you're ready for that. Jasmine. That seems like a crazy dream and you actually don't know how you're going to get there. So why don't you just take a step back? So Rhonda is the one who is sitting in front of a jury saying, ladies and gentlemen, Jasmine isn't ready. That's it. Jasmine doesn't have enough money. That's right. And so then my job is to tell the journey. I don't have enough money yet, but I could find a way.

Heather Hansen (00:06:22) - Well, absolutely. Or here's what I do have.

Heather Hansen (00:06:25) - And you really want to collect and create evidence. So, for example, if the case that was being made was Jasmine doesn't have enough money, well, here's the truth of it. I do have some money. I do have access to people who can give me more money. I know how to make money. I've made money in my past. Yes, I have, you know, you look back at all the things that you've done which can serve as evidence that you know how to make money. I waitressed my way through high school, college and law school. I got a job at Chili's when I was in law school to make some extra money. I have always been able to find a way to make more money. This is all evidence to me to say to this, my inner jury, look at all the ways that you know how to make money. And if I don't have that evidence, because a lot of people will say to me, I don't have any evidence, I've never done this thing.

Heather Hansen (00:07:12) - Okay, then create it. Go out and make some money, sell lemonade on the corner to have evidence for your inner jury to have something to believe. So if someone says, I want to run a marathon, but I've never run, create evidence by running a mile today. Now you have evidence to present to your inner jury, I did it, I could run a mile. I said I would do that and I would do it. So you can collect evidence by looking at all the things you've done. And you can create evidence by taking an active step. It's a little more risky, but the weight of that evidence is so much greater.

Jasmine Star (00:07:41) - I want to point out for the listener in The Watcher, there was two distinct differences. You can collect evidence or you can create evidence. So for the person in the creation mode, I want to pause here. And you just said go ahead and create a lemonade stand. Do you mean that quite literally?

Heather Hansen (00:07:57) - I mean, anything that you can do from the littlest thing to the biggest thing, right? I lost £100 when I was in college.

Heather Hansen (00:08:05) - I did not believe I could lose £100, but I created evidence that I could by losing five and then losing ten and then losing 15. And so now I had some evidence. Well, I do know how to lose weight and this thing that I'm doing is working. And so you can do that with anything in your life. It can be the littlest thing. You could also try to create evidence in a huge way, but I think that it is much less risky and much easier to take those little steps and the pieces of evidence. Just like in the courtroom, you don't win with just one piece of evidence or one witness. It's my mentor used to say, everyone's a pearl. And at the end of the trial, you have a pearl necklace. So every one of these things is a pearl that you use to persuade yourself to get into belief.

Jasmine Star (00:08:45) - Ah, okay. So we started backwards. You can't prove it until you believe it. So this is me telling Rhonda. Yes, I'm going to present my case.

Jasmine Star (00:08:54) - And then the jury decides favorably for me and says, you know what, Jasmine? You have a little bit of evidence in the past. Now we move to two facts. Tell story sell advocates win.

Heather Hansen (00:09:04) - Yep. So there's always a different story. So if I am pitching my product to a buyer, someone else is pitching their product. That's right. To the buyer. If I want to bring in a client for my business, someone else wants to bring in that same client. Correct. And so I love storytelling. Storytelling is a big part of advocating. But when there's competing stories, you need to know how to use your body language, your tone of voice, your facial expressions, your listening skills, which are a huge part of advocating, and also how to turn facts into evidence that speaks to your jury. And so all of those are skills that go beyond storytelling. It's like storytelling with gravy or icing on it however you like, savory or sweet. And it's going beyond that because storytelling isn't enough.

Heather Hansen (00:09:46) - When there's a competing story, you've got to advocate for your story.

Jasmine Star (00:09:49) - Okay, so before we move on, how do you define advocating?

Heather Hansen (00:09:53) - Yeah, so the definition in the in the dictionary is to publicly support something. The way that I talk about it is there's three steps to advocating. It's knowing what you want, asking for it out loud and with delight, and mastering the art of the ask so that ultimately you ask for what you want and get it. That is the job of an advocate.

Jasmine Star (00:10:12) - Okay? So in the business context. When we're talking about advocating, oftentimes we hear it in healthcare or in the judicial system. But what we're really talking about right here is if I want to sell something, yes, I'm an advocate for my business.

Heather Hansen (00:10:26) - Absolutely.

Jasmine Star (00:10:27) - So that's the framework. So as you're listening and as you're watching, what we really want to focus on is knowing, asking and then mastering the art of asking. Yes. So we will always go back to how does this work for the business owner? How does this work for a videographer, for a life coach, for a dog walker, for a boutique owner? That's right.

Jasmine Star (00:10:46) - So you're advocating on behalf of yourself and your business?

Heather Hansen (00:10:49) - Absolutely. You are advocating on behalf of your ideas and your jury. And for the business owner. Your jury is your clients, your customers, your team. If you need them to get on board with a big change you're making. But your jury, you know your jury, you know what you want. And then you need to ask and master the art of the ask.

Jasmine Star (00:11:04) - Okay, so I always make my podcast so selfish. I'm actually in in 2024 and 2024. I'm actually reframing. Okay, I have a question about selfishness, but we're going to get that. I saved that for the end. But I think that I have this complicated relationship with the word selfish. And I think that a lot of people do. And so I would say I'm being selfish and it just doesn't settle well with me, because what I really want to do is use myself and his example. And if that's the case, how is that selfish? That's right.

Jasmine Star (00:11:29) - I just happen to be the one in front of the mike. That's right. Okay. So in terms of knowing my jury right now, at the middle of 2023, my jury was my team. And I said, I think I have an idea to do something that seems a little bit out of the scope, and it seems like it might be a little too big, but the idea excites me and it just lights me up. So I needed to first, if I understand it correctly. And I didn't know that I was actually constantly doing this. I was presenting a case to my team. Jury. Yes. And then I convinced the team jury and we are launching a new, exciting project. And so my jury now becomes my prospective students, and I simply need to present to them a case as to why I believe that this live course experience is better than other options that they're looking for. Yes.

Heather Hansen (00:12:23) - And it's really, you think so much like a lawyer. You think so much like an advocate.

Heather Hansen (00:12:26) - It's amazing because your first jury was your team. Different jury. Yes. You will present things in a different way to that jury then you will to now the perspective. You talk about those differences. Yeah. So for example, I have something that's called a belief triangle. And you want your jury to believe you when you make them a promise, you keep it. When you set an expectation, you meet it. That's the believe you part of the belief triangle. They have to believe in you that you can do the thing you say you're going to do. And then most importantly, the foundation of that triangle is they have to believe that you can help them. And that's where these two juries in my mind really pop out. Your team members want to know that this new project is not going to take them away from their families in a way that is going to be lead to burnout. They want to know that you're going to be able to support them with the help that they need from hiring contractors that might do skills that they don't do.

Heather Hansen (00:13:17) - So to this jury, you've got to talk about it's not going to mean too many more hours than what you're already working. It's not going to mean that you have to learn all kinds of different skills. You have to speak to that jury in a way that they know that you can help them do this.

Jasmine Star (00:13:30) - Thing, or.

Heather Hansen (00:13:32) - Your jury of prospects clients.

Jasmine Star (00:13:35) - Yeah. Okay. So I actually I want to be very open with this because I think that people learn by real life examples. And so when you have said, well, it's not going to require you more time and we will provide the support. I want to be very honest. Uh, so the team I told the team, it will require more time and we will be working longer hours, and we're going to have to be functioning at a different level of excellence. But the back side is if and when we hit these goals, there is something in it for you too. Well that's it.

Heather Hansen (00:14:10) - Yeah. This is also a different jury because they know you so well.

Heather Hansen (00:14:14) - Great. And so you've already hit you knew what you wanted. Yes. You've asked for it with delight. That's such an important piece of it. Jasmine, you were in full belief that this is the thing you wanted to do in 2023. Your delight is contagious. Your energy is contagious. So that team feels your energy of delight and excitement and enthusiasm. So they're already on board. And then you say to them, yeah, this is going to be hard and you're going to have to work harder, but on the back end you're going to reap the rewards with me. And they believe you and they believe in you. So you've got the other two sides of that triangle, and now you've persuaded them that this is going to help them, and then they're off to the races.

Jasmine Star (00:14:52) - Beautiful. So now we're in the middle of a really cool project that I got the team on. Talk to me about the change, because from a business perspective, we have our warm leads. These are people who are familiar with who we are, what we do kind of ish.

Jasmine Star (00:15:07) - And then you have your hot leads. These are people who subscribe to your social channels, subscribe to our newsletter, and then you have your cold. So when you have an audience that's a wild mix, or for an entrepreneur who's putting out a new offer to a wildly new audience and nobody really knows them. Talk to me about the believe you, believe in you, and believe that you can help them, right?

Heather Hansen (00:15:26) - So all of those different warm, hot, cold leads, they all want the same thing right? From the offer that you're getting. They want to build their businesses. They want to grow their reach. They want to build their thought leadership, whatever. Maybe their bottom line. So believe that you can help them is going to be a similar message, because it is this project that I'm creating. This thing that I'm creating for you is going to help you make more money, have more time, build your business, get more eyes on you, whatever it is. And so that part is probably going to be consistent.

Heather Hansen (00:15:55) - But your hot audience, they already believe you and they already believe in you. And so you don't have to worry so much about those two sides of that triangle. They know you. They know you say you're going to going to deliver on something that you sell me. You've always delivered. You make a promise. You keep it when you can't. You've always owned it. We are on board with Jasmine, so for them you don't have to worry so much, but you're totally cold. Audience on Facebook. Your Facebook communications are going to be more about this is how I have the chops to sell this to you. I've built social curator, I've created this podcast, I have this many followers, I've done this many things. I've helped this many people, a lot of testimonials, their right to believe in you and believe you. I've helped this many people. They need that to fill that belief triangle in a way that the hot and even the warm don't need as much.

Jasmine Star (00:16:45) - So good. Now I want to take it one step further for the listener.

Jasmine Star (00:16:50) - For the watcher. I believe that the key component of getting somebody who's cold because I mean, obviously the less convincing you have to do to a customer, the less advocating you have to do in relation to your business, the easier it is to get somebody to buy. Now, we would focus on the person who doesn't know you, who who's not sure they believe you. They not sure they believe in you, and they're not sure that you can help them for that person. If somebody's sitting here and saying, okay, but how do I do that? Outside of running a Facebook ad or an Instagram ad or an ad on TikTok, like, what them am I doing then? And so my big thought and belief has always been education and content. How has that played out in your business? How could you work with a myriad of entrepreneurs? How are you seeing them do that effectively in 2024? That is.

Heather Hansen (00:17:34) - Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. Education and content. It's the evidence. It is.

Heather Hansen (00:17:38) - It's it's all about everything is about evidence. Right. So it's the evidence of this is what I've done myself. So that's your story. So your story like for me my story is I left a very successful career as a lawyer and started my own business. That is what. And I tell that story. But it's also evidence that I've been able to create something out of nothing. At an age where most people don't do those things, that they see that as evidence that I they can believe me, that evidence that I've done the thing, evidence that I am able to build that belief in myself when I don't necessarily have it. So you want to use your content to create evidence. Evidence is also the people that you've served in the past. So you might interview someone or have someone do a testimonial on video that says, oh my gosh, this was the best photographer I've ever had. They came in, tell the story with specific pieces of evidence. They showed up on time. They were so friendly to everybody who was there.

Heather Hansen (00:18:31) - The pictures were beautiful. Look at the pictures. What another beautiful form of evidence. You know, there's a saying in advertising, and it used to be seven that you had to repeat something seven times, seven ways. And that number is probably gone up because of our attention span. Yes.

Jasmine Star (00:18:43) - And social media.

Heather Hansen (00:18:43) - But yes. But I always say seven times seven waves. So it's going to be my story. It's going to be my pictures, it's going to be my testimonials. It's going to be so as many ways that you can communicate the value of what you are offering. Because different people receive things in different ways. Some people are going to be struck by, oh my gosh, I picked this photographer. Her pictures were great. But really what struck me was how kind this person said she was or he was to the people at the wedding or at the event. Another person's just all about the pictures. Another person's all about the price. Another person's all about the are they going to help me feel comfortable in front of a camera? And so you want to relay your evidence in as many different ways that you can to speak to all of the various.

Heather Hansen (00:19:26) - Again, I go back to the jury members.

Jasmine Star (00:19:28) - So okay, I want to go two ways here. Number one, that was such a beautiful pivot into your origin story, but I don't think I can get there because there's a listener who says seven times seven ways and you said stories, testimonials, sharing your personal story, like, can we drill down on what the seven might be for somebody who's listening specifically as we're dealing with the cold audience here?

Heather Hansen (00:19:48) - Yeah. So the easiest way to do this is to get specific with an example. Right. So let's say it's a photographer and you want to communicate the value of your photography that at weddings okay. One way you may do that is with testimonials. Got it. One way you may do that is with your origin story. One way you made you, that is with your pictures. One way you may do that is to have a reel of you taking pictures. So it's not just the picture product, but you behind the scenes taking pictures. One way you may do that is going on a podcast and talking to other photographers about what you do.

Heather Hansen (00:20:20) - As far as the cameras that you have and your equipment. One way you may do that is by educating the consumer about all the things that it takes in order for you to actually take those pictures. I think we're at six.

Jasmine Star (00:20:30) - No, we're at we're at eight.

Heather Hansen (00:20:31) - Oh, well, there we go.

Jasmine Star (00:20:32) - You have their stories, number one, testimonials, their stories being their origin story, what that experience is, how they found the testimonial, their experience with you as a photographer and being as specific as possible. Number three, is your origin story as a photographer, what made you get into it? Number four is pricing. We have to talk about what it is, and we're not just transacting on a photo or transacting on an experience. Then we have behind the scenes that photographer being on podcast, talking about that experience with their clients and how they're growing their business and then educating the consumer. That was a total of eight. You went one over that extra credit. Oh, that was so good.

Heather Hansen (00:21:06) - As many as.

Jasmine Star (00:21:06) - Possible. Absolutely.

Heather Hansen (00:21:07) - Because the repetition, you know, again, in front of a jury, if I just stand in front of a jury and say my client didn't do it, my client didn't do it, my client didn't do it. They're not only is that annoying to them, but they're going to start to be like, yeah, prove it. Give me something that resonates with me. So you want to repeat it in as many ways as you can. And also some people learn visually, some people learn with auditory, some people learn by hearing stories. And so you want to some people are really into graphs. You know, maybe you can create a graph or a diagram. You want to really speak to all of the people in all of the ways. This is.

Jasmine Star (00:21:38) - Fascinating. So as I'm preparing to teach live classes, and so we're doing this in two ways. We have a. A new boot camp where it's like a series of four live classes, and in the end, we're going to culminate with a master class.

Jasmine Star (00:21:49) - And as I think about these things, I'm still doing the same thing. But the way that I'm shifting it is a seven way. So I will now include a graph in my master class. I'm like, oh yeah, a graph. I'm going to be incorporating videos like old videos and old photos. And you know, one of the things that came up for me was, this is a new course and we're teaching it live. We're calling a live course experience. I actually don't have testimonials. And so this was me and Rhonda. Rhonda and I were presenting to the jury. And the jury is saying, well, we want evidence. And Rhonda's like your honor jury. She has no evidence. And then the thing that I decided to say was, if I don't have evidence for the success of the course, do I have evidence of myself as an instructor, as a person? And so I started reaching out to other people and like, you know, when we had conversations about when you doubled your launch, can you talk about that experience? That's it.

Jasmine Star (00:22:38) - And so that's when I won the jury over. And I'm like, we're moving forward, y'all. We're going, we're going.

Heather Hansen (00:22:44) - Okay. And that's how it happens. And also remember in the courtroom, you don't need to have all the evidence. You just have to have the weight of the evidence on your side. So there might be some of these things that you don't yet have. You can create it like you'll after you create this course. Right. You'll have testimonials. And that's the creating of evidence. But you've also found a way to collect it by looking all over the place and saying, oh, this particular thing, I can make it fit as evidence to persuade my inner jury to not to listen to Rhonda.

Jasmine Star (00:23:15) - Okay, now let's get back to how did Heather become like an advocate for advocates?

Heather Hansen (00:23:21) - Oh, boy. Okay, so I started I went to college. In college, I knew I what I really wanted to do is what I'm doing now, but it wasn't so much a career, and it certainly wasn't a career that friends and family would be like, oh yeah, go do that.

Heather Hansen (00:23:33) - So I went to law school. I was fortunate enough that in law school I started working at the firm where I am still a partner, which is crazy. Wow. Yeah.

Jasmine Star (00:23:40) - I didn't know that. All my creeping, I did not know that.

Heather Hansen (00:23:44) - And so that's 2094 is when I started law school. So a long time ago. Okay. And I was really lucky because the kind of law that that firm did was medical malpractice defense. I think that I really liked the fact that it involved human beings and bodies. I could get my mind around that I could understand because really, as an advocate, you need to know more about the subject matter than you do about like, the law. The law was really not that important in my job, but I needed to understand the medicine and all of that. And so for 20 years I was Jasmine. I was a really good lawyer. I was top 50 female attorneys in the state of Pennsylvania. I was inducted into the American College of Trial Lawyers.

Heather Hansen (00:24:22) - I was a really good at advocating for my clients, and really good at teaching them to advocate for themselves, because I was aware that the jury didn't care so much what I had to say. They cared what the doctor, the nurse, the tech, and the operating room had to say. And so I was a very strong advocate, but terrible at advocating for myself, would not advocate for myself in my personal relationships, would not advocate for me.

Jasmine Star (00:24:43) - An example.

Heather Hansen (00:24:44) - Um, so I'll give you well, first of all, I'll give you a work example. I was in demand as a trial attorney. A lot of people wanted me to try their cases, and I needed help, but I didn't ask for I didn't. I knew what I wanted, sort of, but needing help. I mean, we can talk about clarity. That's not real clear. I just kept saying I need help, but it was not like I need a new paralegal. I needed someone else to take over some cases.

Heather Hansen (00:25:05) - I wasn't clear there. I would not ask for it. When I finally did, it was with resentment and frustration and anger and not with delight. And then you can't master the art of the ask when you're asking with frustration and resentment and anger.

Jasmine Star (00:25:19) - Now, can I tap out the human emotion? When you had said I wanted to create the distinction between asking with regret or resentment and versus asking with delight, were you resentful that people didn't see that Heather needed help? Yes. And so you're saying I want you to see so that I don't have to ask?

Heather Hansen (00:25:35) - Yes. And that's what so many of us do. And we are also givers. So clearly, if I give you help, I want help, too. Clearly, if I'm running around when you need something, I step up. Clearly. I want you to do the same. When I'm running around with back to back trials and no help and feeling like my head's going to fall off. But I wasn't actually asking. I was asking by giving.

Jasmine Star (00:25:58) - If I continued to give on that partner track, being like, look at how much I'm giving and you're waiting for somebody to reciprocate?

Heather Hansen (00:26:05) - Yes, but not asking for it, just assuming that they would. Of course they know. And by this time I was a partner. But even as a young associate, I would not ask for a raise because I thought, why should I have to? They should know I work so hard I build more hours than anyone else here. I work harder than anyone else here. I'm bringing in work already and I'm not even a partner. Of course, they know that I want to be a partner and that I want more money, but they don't always know. No, I was really lucky because my mentors and partners did give me. I was a partner of when I was young. They did give me a lot of things, but I still should have asked for more because they didn't know all the things that I wanted. Only I do the listeners, the people who are watching, you know.

Heather Hansen (00:26:45) - What you want better than anyone else can. And so you've got to ask, because if you don't, then you get resentful. And then when you finally do ask, you're mad that they haven't given it to you already. And it's just a totally different energy.

Jasmine Star (00:26:57) - So we framed it up in asking for what you wanted in terms of being a partner. So it's not as much employee and employer. It's more of like two or multiple co-founders at that point. Yeah. So we went through that like, hello, we're partners and do you not see this? Yeah. So then you asked with resentment and then you talked about when you were associate like, well, can't you see what's going on now as an employer I have no doubt there have been times where I had employees to say, well, don't you see? I'm now in my mind? And please feel free to disagree in my mind, I've always believed that if you were to present me with what you have done and then said comparable to that, but this is me being super analytical and data like so how does somebody how does my employees, how does any play if somebody is listening right now and being like, hey, I have a side hustle, but I really like my job.

Jasmine Star (00:27:51) - I want to get paid more for it. Is there a framework? Yes.

Heather Hansen (00:27:54) - I mean, I think that you've got to know what you want. So it's not just I need to get paid more. I want to get paid this many dollars. I want to get this much of a raise. You do the research to get the evidence that you know this is what's comparable. This is what I've brought into the business. This is the amount that you're getting as a result of the work that I'm doing. So you're creating you're making the case. Right. So you're very clear on what you want. I also when I'm talking to people about doing this, I tell them to have negotiable and non-negotiables. So you might say I need to make at least $1,000 more a year. That's your non-negotiable. But you ask for two.

Jasmine Star (00:28:27) - Yeah, okay.

Heather Hansen (00:28:28) - And then you have a bunch of negotiable. Well, if you can't give me two, can I work from home one day? Can you pay for me to go take these courses? Can I get gas money for my commute? You know, when I work with people, we actually create a list of negotiable because you want to have as many negotiable as you can so that we're sort of skipping around the order here.

Heather Hansen (00:28:47) - But when you're actually asking, you can say, well, I want 2000 and I want to work from home four days a week. But ultimately, you know, the non-negotiable is 1000, and working from home one day a week. And then also have some that you play with, like, will you pay for me to join chief and get some networking opportunities? Will you pay for me to go to this mastermind that's across the country, that's going to have people where I'm going to learn for the business. And so you really want to collect those so that you're not negotiating. You know, I trained to become a mediator and part of my past life. And one of the things that I found is the people who had the most negotiable rules got the most because they were willing to play so good.

Jasmine Star (00:29:26) - The most negotiable wins. Yes. That's it. Ah, okay. So we went from partner to partner. We went from associate to employer, and then we went through specifics as an employee speaking to me.

Jasmine Star (00:29:40) - And so now the the nomenclature like what I am telling my team is we can absolutely have conversations. But what I need from you is you've done the homework, you're very clear on what you want and to have your non-negotiables and your negotiable laid out. And I will have non-negotiables and negotiable laid out. We are two people. We are two parties having not a but I feel like I deserve more.

Heather Hansen (00:30:04) - Right. That's not going to work.

Jasmine Star (00:30:05) - That's not gonna work.

Heather Hansen (00:30:06) - Not gonna tell.

Jasmine Star (00:30:07) - You. I would tell you. I'm like, that's just not gonna work. It's going.

Heather Hansen (00:30:09) - To not. And the thing that I also recommend, and you can speak to this as a busy CEO, I recommend that people give the person that they're asking exhibits ahead of time. So that is to send to you the day before that you meet.

Jasmine Star (00:30:22) - So good a.

Heather Hansen (00:30:22) - Memo that says, this is the evidence that I'm going to be presenting to you, because then you have time. There's actually research. It's an older book, but it's called the CEO Next Door.

Heather Hansen (00:30:30) - They talk about how CEOs before meetings like to have some context about what the meeting is about, like what are you asking for? What's what's the evidence? How can I play with this in my head? How can I wrap my head around it? Because often if you don't do that and someone comes to a meeting with you, Jasmine, and they say, well, I want to raise, you're like, well, I have to think about it. And you still probably are going to have to think about it, but you're going to be able to give them a better sense of how long it's going to take, what you need to know, what more information you might need. It's a back and forth. This advocating negotiating. It's not a one shot deal like it was in the courtroom.

Jasmine Star (00:31:00) - So good. So we were talking about your origin story, and then we were talking about the ways that you've given real life examples from peer to peer or founder to founder, employee to employee, like negotiable from an employee asking for a raise or a promotion within an organization.

Jasmine Star (00:31:18) - Did I miss any sort of caveats, like for somebody who's listening right now? And, um, okay, I didn't think I was going to actually have this conversation. And here we are having this conversation. There was a Christmas tree up this morning, and you arrived in the remnants of the Christmas tree. We're on the floor. And there wasn't furniture in the back of where we're filming right now. And so I'm seeing all of this happen in real time. When what I hear it should have been. Any partner to partner relationship was if I'm submitting evidence, I should have told my business partner and husband the tree needs to be down by 7 a.m. in the morning, right?

Heather Hansen (00:31:57) - So you know what you want.

Jasmine Star (00:31:58) - That's the non-negotiable.

Heather Hansen (00:31:59) - Ask for it with the light.

Jasmine Star (00:32:01) - Okay? And that's helping me, I am not I am when I want a I am anything but delightful. I am your living nightmare. Because. Did you see what I said? So the tree needs to be down by seven.

Jasmine Star (00:32:09) - Who wants to do that? How do I ask? With the light? Like what the. What in the world? I mean.

Heather Hansen (00:32:15) - Listen, that is the thing that people struggle with the most, but it's also the thing that makes the most impact. Because Jasmine, had you asked JD honey, you know the tree, really, it's going to be so much fun today. We're going to be so awesome. I know you have a busy day plan with Luna as well. It's going to be great, but we really need to get that tree down because it's going to open up the space and it's going to have that thing off your list and off my list. Let's do that by tomorrow morning at 8:00. That energy is different than that. Trees got to come down by eight.

Jasmine Star (00:32:39) - Oh, God. I got a lot of work to do in 2024. I have to tell you that, Heather. Okay, okay. I hear it delights.

Heather Hansen (00:32:45) - The goal, right? But it is. We can always get there.

Heather Hansen (00:32:49) - You know, you're not always going to be delighted about taking down the Christmas tree, right? But if you can get to a place where you're not asking with resentment or, you know, a lot of people in that situation don't ask at all. They just look at the tree and they say, oh, is he she never going to take down that tree? And then the resentment builds and says, you know, like sooner or later somebody's got to take down that tree is going to be me. Yeah. And then you finally explode and you're like, and you don't take down the tree and you just walk by that you took down.

Jasmine Star (00:33:10) - Your mom's tree, right?

Heather Hansen (00:33:12) - And it turns into a terrible thing because the resentment builds. Your resentment is a sign of a time that you need to advocate. It's a time that you need to open up your mouth and start.

Jasmine Star (00:33:21) - Resentment is a sign that you need to advocate. So if there's somebody listening, we're not gonna talk about business anymore. We're talking about with your children, with a partner, with friendships.

Jasmine Star (00:33:30) - If you are feeling a little bit resentful, it's time for you to know exactly what you're asking for. Yep. Asking with delight. Yeah. And then mastering the art of that. Yes. Can we go back to your origin story, perhaps pick up a little bit there and then weave in the way that you've learned how to master the ask?

Heather Hansen (00:33:47) - Yeah. So I, I didn't even know I wasn't good at advocating for myself. I just knew I wasn't getting what I needed. And so I was getting sick. I ended up in the emergency room. So it's a longer story, but I represented a woman who reminded me a lot of myself. She was an emergency room doctor. It was a very high stress case. It was a the patient had died in the case. So very high stress case. And I called her. She was a young mom and she had moved away. And I told her about our jury she was flying into for the trial to start. And she said, Heather, I just found out that if we lose this case, I'm going to lose my job.

Heather Hansen (00:34:19) - And Jasmine, within minutes, I had an allergic reaction to my own stress hormones. My lips started to swell up, and I was going into anaphylaxis because my throat was. My tongue was swelling, my throat was swelling closed because I was having an allergic reaction to my cortisone, all my stress hormones. So I had to go to the emergency room and spend the night there, hooked up to steroids and Benadryl. And it was like research in real time. I started the trial that Monday. I won that case, but I realized then that something had to give, and I had to start asking for what I wanted, and I didn't know where to begin. You know, I didn't know how to do it. And so I all I knew was being a lawyer. All I knew was advocating in the courtroom. And so I decided, let me try to do it the way I do it in the courtroom. Let me try to know the people I'm asking. Let me be very clear in what I want.

Heather Hansen (00:35:08) - Let me make sure that I'm asking in a way that benefits them. That's mastering the art of the ask. And let me make sure that I'm not letting it get to resentment. And I started doing it in little, little, little ways. So I started asking for more help in my partnership at my trials. And that freed me up. So then I started asking for I started doing some television. It was a legal analyst for CNN and MSNBC, and then I wanted to do more of that. Um, Dan Abrams had just started the Long Crime Network. I asked to be an anchor there, and I got that. And so the more that I was asking for what I wanted and advocating, the more that I was actually receiving at the time, I was in a not so great relationship, I asked him, I lived in Philadelphia. He lived in a different part of the country. I asked him to come more often when he couldn't. I left that relationship and so everything changed when I started advocating for myself.

Heather Hansen (00:35:54) - And then I recognized that if this works for me, it could work for other people. And so I wrote my book, The Elegant Warrior. I started doing some coaching and some speaking, and now that's what I do. I teach people how to do this skill because it's a very specific skill. When you communicate, you share perspectives. When you advocate, you change them. They are different skills and they take different skill sets. But now I teach people how to do that and I do it through a coaching. I have a membership called the Self-Advocacy school. I do it through keynote speaking. I do it in my books and it's a dream come true.

Jasmine Star (00:36:27) - You're a dream come true. I'm just. I don't think I was breathing, I just realized I was like, inhale, girl, inhale. I love it if we can go back and have an example. You mentioned Dan Abrams. Can we actually walk through the three part talk to me about. Yes. The knowing, asking with delight and then mastering the art.

Jasmine Star (00:36:46) - They ask because I want to use this as a real life example for somebody who is looking at something they want, don't yet have, and see it as a kind of like a blue ocean opportunity. Yes. Okay.

Heather Hansen (00:36:57) - And that that's a huge one because I had been doing, um, legal analyst work with CNN and MSNBC. And that means for the listener or watcher who might not know this, you're not paid for that work unless you are hired by MSNBC or CNN. Like my friend Dani Ceballos, for example, is an MSNBC legal contributor, legal analyst in general. When I was doing it, we weren't paid. And so it was why.

Jasmine Star (00:37:23) - It was why.

Heather Hansen (00:37:26) - This.

Jasmine Star (00:37:26) - Is the this is the.

Heather Hansen (00:37:27) - Woman who's like, I'm a CEO, why aren't we getting paid? The reason you do it is because it's tons of fun, okay? And every time it. And some people do it for business, for their law firm, for me, that was not the case because of the type of law I did.

Heather Hansen (00:37:40) - For me, it always felt like an audition. Maybe they'll see me, maybe they'll think I'm good, maybe they'll want me to be a contributor. And that's usually how it works. Like Danny started as an analyst and then he was always available, always prepared, really good on camera. And now he's a contributor. So it's sort of like you just keep saying yes and you keep going in the hopes that that will happen. And I had been doing that and it wasn't happening. And so I was starting to get frustrated.

Jasmine Star (00:38:06) - Pause. Somebody is watching and listening and they are glazing over something she just powerfully said. I was doing the same thing and I wasn't getting what I wanted. If you are doing the same thing and not getting what you want, something has to change. So what did you do to change?

Heather Hansen (00:38:25) - Well, it's also really interesting because I never asked I never asked anyone at MSNBC, hey, do I have a chance at being a contributor? I never advocated for looking back.

Jasmine Star (00:38:35) - Why not? What do you think it was?

Heather Hansen (00:38:36) - It was a lack of belief in myself and a little bit of just the fear of embarrassment, which is a big thing that holds us back from advocating our brains hate embarrassment. I just read a great book called Energy Rising. The woman's. The author's name is Doctor Julia de Gangi, I think, and she talks about she's a neuroscientist, and she talks about the emotions and the emotion that the brain hates most is humiliation and embarrassment. Oh, and so that's what we're often afraid of when we're afraid to advocate is we're afraid I'm going to be embarrassed if they say no. I'm going to be humiliated. If they tell me I don't, I.

Jasmine Star (00:39:09) - Don't have a.

Heather Hansen (00:39:10) - Chance. Right. Not even close. And especially because that was in person, like I'm at MSNBC. So the humiliation is even more of a risk if they have to say that to my face. And so I whipped out so that the honest answer to that question. But the universe gave me an opportunity in the Dan Abrams thing.

Heather Hansen (00:39:26) - So I had not I don't think I'd met.

Jasmine Star (00:39:28) - What was the difference between the two? What do you think gave you the power to ask in that situation and not the former? It was.

Heather Hansen (00:39:34) - Via email. Oh, and I didn't already know him. There was a lot of things, but. So, Dan, I had never met Dan before. I knew who he was. He had started his he had had his start at court TV, um, and he worked his way up. He became the head legal news. He was the head of legal, I think, at ABC. Then he started a number of different websites. He's written books. He's very prolific. And he had tweeted that he was going to start a network similar to court TV, and that felt removed enough that it wouldn't be as humiliating. You know, the risk of humiliation wasn't as high. So I tweeted him, this is before Twitter became X years ago.

Jasmine Star (00:40:18) - And so let's go back into the framework now.

Heather Hansen (00:40:22) - I knew what I wanted.

Jasmine Star (00:40:23) - You knew what you wanted. Did you have a list of negotiable and non-negotiables? Yeah. Okay.

Heather Hansen (00:40:27) - At this point I was it felt like a stretch when we finally did sit down to talk about what the job would look like, I did. It wasn't much of a list. It was, I really want this.

Jasmine Star (00:40:37) - Okay.

Heather Hansen (00:40:37) - But so I had a I had a lot of negotiable and not very many non-negotiables when we finally sat down. Got it. But the initial ask was I knew what I wanted and it was such a I was delighted at the prospect that they must need anchors. I'm here in New York City. This feels like it's within my reach. I was in full belief that it was at least worth a try. Not that I was going to get it, but that it was at least worth a try. That the risk of humiliation did not outweigh the benefit that I thought I could get, especially when it was done via Twitter. So I tweeted him, you know, I messaged him on Twitter and I said, I'm local, I've done legal work for CNN and so forth.

Heather Hansen (00:41:21) - And in that world, they see you because they're all watching the shows all the time. So he knew who I was and I would love to be one of your anchors. So he said, why don't you come in? So I knew what I wanted. I asked with delight, and now I had to master the art of the ask. Right? I had to go in. I had to know what he wanted. I had an assumption that their budget wasn't high. I was still lawyering. So that would work for me. I knew that for me, the only real non-negotiable was time. I was still lawyering, so I couldn't commit to, like, every day, you know, eight hours a day or whatever. I knew that he wanted someone who had credibility, so I came. I sent him ahead of time all of the things I'd done on TV, but also all of the things that I had done in the courtroom and how that would help me to be a good anchor and maybe even a better anchor than some of the others that I had seen, because they didn't have that courtroom experience.

Heather Hansen (00:42:07) - And so I looked at it from his perspective, not mine, which is like, I want to be an anchor. So he should let me be an anchor. But he needs anchors. He needs anchors that maybe he's not going to pay as much as some of these other things other channels are paying. He needs someone who understands the courtroom. He needs someone who can think on their feet. And so I created that exhibit ahead of time and sent it to him so that when we sat down, it was very quick. He said, you know, we'd love to have you. He introduced me to the woman who, Rachel, who really was running the day to day. And very quickly I started.

Jasmine Star (00:42:40) - This is the most perfect example and it feels so real. And I want to go back and really point out that your whole body kind of became a little concave. And you had said, I wimped out. Yeah. And I just want to hold power in space. For somebody who has your dream career to look back at a point and say, I had wimped out, and then somehow I found the way to lessen my risk of humiliation.

Jasmine Star (00:43:07) - I knew that my non-negotiables were very small in relation to like, listen, I want this and we're going to make it work. You had mastered the ask in advance of you had said, I'm going to send you everything that you could possibly need, so that the only thing you need to really make a decision on is, are we a match here? Like energetically, do you think that I could do what my resume and all this data analytics and proof show. Yep. And then you were looking at it from that jury. Yeah. Rachel. And remind me, Dan. Yeah, they were your jury. That's right.

Heather Hansen (00:43:39) - Exactly. That's exactly right. And the thing that I do have to point out about this, the wimping out and the not asking for MSNBC. I think it's important to know that. You advocate for something, you get it. It might. The knowing what you want. I thought that's what I wanted. I'm sitting here today. I'm not an anchor. So I realized that it wasn't what I wanted anymore.

Heather Hansen (00:43:59) - And I advocated for something different. And my entire new career, especially lawyer, was a pretty straight line. But this new career has been I know what I want. I asked for it with delight. I mastered the art of the ask. Ideally, I get it. It's not exactly what I wanted and sometimes I don't get it. And that's more evidence that helps me to decide what it is that I really do want. So for the people who are listening and watching, I want them to know that the misses are just more evidence and you might get what you want. I think sometimes people think, well, what if I'm wrong? You find out if you're wrong, and if you're wrong, you're one step closer to what it is that you really want. By having gone through that experience so good.

Jasmine Star (00:44:37) - It was like you knew. We're nearing the end of the podcast. I was like, it's the crescendo. She's getting there, she's getting there. Uh, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of the Jasmine Star podcast jury, uh, you know, if if Heather Hanson was Rhonda, I lost happily, happily, happily.

Jasmine Star (00:44:59) - Heather, how do people go deeper? So I know you have a book. I know you are revamping and rereleasing your podcast. You have been a guest on big, powerful, amazing podcasts as well. Where do people go to learn more about you and how to go deeper?

Heather Hansen (00:45:12) - My website is advocate to window. Com and on there there is a link for the membership which is a membership where they can get. We do live coaching every week. We have community which supports each other in knowing what they want. They talk to each other a lot. There's some courses on this, so that's all there. There's links to my book, The Elegant Warrior. The podcast is also called The Elegant Warrior, but this season it's How to Advocate with Heather Hanson. And it's only about how to advocate as a leader, how to advocate for your boundaries, how to advocate if you're in sales, how to overcome your own doubts. And so it's really specific to the stuff we've been talking about here today.

Jasmine Star (00:45:45) - That is beautiful.

Jasmine Star (00:45:46) - Knowing how to ask and getting what it is you want. Yeah. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for watching and listening The Jasmine Star show. And wait a minute. We have to give a shout out to Instagram. You are posting stories, you're showing New York City, you're showing your life and the small little tidbits of just like an example. This is what happened today. And this is like, that stuff has been gold for me.

Heather Hansen (00:46:10) - So it's an an elegant warrior is an elegant warrior.

Jasmine Star (00:46:15) - Be sure to tag Heather and myself if you've enjoyed this podcast more than anything. My biggest takeaway is collecting small pieces of evidence. And when you cannot collect, we create. So to the creators, thank you for listening and thank you, Heather, for being a guest.

Heather Hansen (00:46:30) - Thank you for having me.