Speaker 1

Okay .

Speaker 2

Okay . It's time for real talk. Do you consider yourself a freelancer or an entrepreneur? Well, today my guest on the Jasmine star show is going to answer that question, why he doesn't believe in hustle when Instagram influencers are doing wrong and it's so much more y'all . Someone is about to spill the tea and that someone is Seth Godin. Now y'all, I'm having a moment here because Seth has written 19 bestselling books. Okay. 19 like one nine he has given five Ted talks and created life changing workshops and courses addressing various aspects of marketing, advertising, business venturing and leadership. He is a wildly successful entrepreneur, marketer and public speaker and one thing that I really like about him is that he professes the idea of making information available for everyone in the world in starting a global conversation on business and marketing, in which everyone from everywhere can take an active part. Now I have to let you know, I have personally been eight huge fan of Seth for a long time. One of my all time favorite business thinkers, a Seth Goden to my best friend who doesn't know he's my best friend Seth Goden. Let me depend on somebody much smarter. My pretend business best friend Seth Goden . So as you probably can tell, getting to have this conversation with Seth was nothing short of spectacular. Although if I'm being honest, I listened to this interview once it was over and I think I sound like a nervous school girl talking to her crush. And by crush, I mean I'm happily married and this is a totally professional crush. And all I really want to do is sip tea together in New York city wearing knit scarves on a balcony. But maybe I should stop talking because I'm probably making this moment even more awkward. Okay. Am I right? And the way , uh, this conversation was a big moment for me. So cheers to me and anyone else who's painfully awkward yet still pushes through because success doesn't go to those who are perfect. It goes to those who simply push through with shaky voices and stutter steps. Can I get an amen? So without further ado, let me introduce you to my future best friend and spirit animal Seth Godin for hears . I have always admired the way that you have a constant reminder of begin with the end in mind. Uh , just a few days ago you had posted on a blog and if you give me a second, I want to share that with my audience cause it left an impact with me as we start this conversation. You're a years from now after this discussion is over, what should we remember about tomorrow when the day gets busy? What would you like me to remember about the discussion? And we will have you wrote, begin with the end in mind. So Seth, I am taking your advice and we're going to begin with the end in mind. What do you want us to know at the end of this conversation so that we can carry it with us? How will we start there?

Speaker 3

That's great. Um, I have two things to say. The first is I'd like your listeners to remember that you are coming at this with such generosity and heart and soul, and that it is not easy to show up as regularly as you do, as generously as you do. And that I, for one, appreciate that and I hope that other people will remember that.

Speaker 2

Oh well was heartwarming and nice. Well , thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3

The second one is, I think it's important to distinguish between being a freelancer and an entrepreneur, and if I can lift some of the weight from people who are listening to this by helping them embrace with happiness, the fact that they are freelancers, not entrepreneurs, your life will get better. Made my life better when I realized the difference.

Speaker 2

Oh well instead of me diving into where I thought I was going to go, it would behoove us for us to have that definition so that the rest of the conversation really is tailor made. So who's listening? A freelancer or entrepreneur get , give me a little bit more there.

Speaker 3

Okay, so freelancers work with their own two fingers. If I'm writing, it's me writing. If I'm on stage , it's me on stage. We don't scale. We only get as many hours a week as we get, and that's all. If you're a successful freelancer, it is tempting to hire more people who are junior versions of you. And this is when your life starts to go sideways because if you are a graphic designer and you start hiring more graphic designers, who exactly is in charge of getting new business now because as soon as life gets busy, you will hire the cheapest, most talented person to work for you. You know who that is you, you will keep hiring yourself until you burn out. Entrepreneurs do a different thing. Entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs get paid when they sleep. Entrepreneurs build systems. If you're an entrepreneur, your job is to not do the work. Your job is to hire other people to do every single job. That's your job if you're the entrepreneur. So if you want to be an entrepreneur, and I have been one and some days I choose to be one, go be an entrepreneur and hold yourself accountable for building something bigger than yourself with leverage and scale. But if you're a freelancer and on good days, I get to be a freelancer, then the only way to do better is to get better clients and getting better clients. That's what my new workshops about. But it's mostly what your life can be about, which is becoming the kind of freelancer who earns clients who pay you more, who challenge you more, who talk about your work, who come back and challenge you to do it even better. If you can get clients like that, then life gets better.

Speaker 2

Oh, okay. So for a point of clarity, are you saying that the two can simultaneously coexist? You can be a freelancer and an entrepreneur, or must they live separately and you are in that specific mindset. Like I am a freelancer through this time and I am an entrepreneur until this time,

Speaker 3

right? So I have one place in my office where I sit when I'm being a freelancer, and I know it's me and just me. But if I'm working on one of our workshops, I better not be doing any job that only there could be done by anyone else. Because if I am, I'm cheating and it's not going to work. So it is possible to do both. But when I ran my first internet company, I had 74 employees and 54 of them reported directly to me. That's wrong. That's insane. It costs a lot of time and money because I felt like I was the center of this thing and I needed to leverage me. And the internet was this whole influencer culture has somehow persuaded us that that's what we're supposed to do. But it's not clear that we are, it's not clear that the best use of your time is to sometimes be in front of the camera and sometimes be a brilliant entrepreneur who's building something bigger than the person in front of the camera. That's a hard road to go down.

Speaker 2

Oh , okay. And it's a hard road to go down, but it's a perfect segue for where I want to start the conversation because in a recent email you wrote me anti quote, full disclosure, I think hustle is a pretty negative approach and that most people who want to be Instagram influencers are probably doing the wrong thing. I am also not a fan of authenticity in quotes. That said, I have huge respect for people who care enough to speak up, to try to make things better and to lead. So when I read this email, I was totally and completely intrigued. So if you're open to it, I'd love to use your response as a framework for this conversation. So for people who are listening, we're breaking it down as part one. Why is hustle a negative approach? Part two, what are the wrong things that influencers are doing? And part three, how do you define authenticity in quotes? And if you're not a fan of it, why and how do you think that we could do it better? So that's the overview. So if you don't mind, I'd love to get into part one. Why is hustle a negative approach?

Speaker 3

Have you ever met someone who said, I really liked that person, they hustled me?

Speaker 2

No, no, I have not.

Speaker 3

Exactly. No one looks forward to a hustler. No one wants a hustler in their life. No one wants to be hustled. And so the idea of there's two words that have the same two meanings, hustle and hockey is the player who tries extra hard. I'm not talking about that kind of hustle is the shortcut seeker is the person who uses social status to force other people to say yes when they really would rather say no hustle is that idea that you don't really have that much inside. But if you work really hard you can still win. And the long road is always the shortest route. And the long road is about creating value for humans that you can look in the eye. The long road is earning the privilege of engaging with other people. And there will always be someone who wants to hustle and take a shortcut. But here's what I know. I was on the internet 30 years ago. Most people weren't 20 years ago, 10 years ago. The people who were hustling that who everyone was writing about and all the fancy magazines, they're all gone. All of them gone because you can't keep it up. Hustle is not your friend. You want to be on the long road instead.

Speaker 2

Mm . So when you look around at the current landscape at the time of us recording this podcast, what do you see as behaviors or patterns of people who are hustling in the term? In the definition of like hustler?

Speaker 3

Yeah, so you know one thing that crosses my door all the time is here's a common hustle. Send it and note to someone who you think is more famous than you and ask them an innocuous question. And if they're a good soul, they'll write you back and then ask them a followup question and then ask them a third question and then ask him for the favor because now they somehow owe you something. Well, you weren't interested at all. All along. Here's another hustle by a list of podcasters and their email addresses and then email all of them with a note that says, I'm a big fan of your show. Can I be a guest? Right? Well, guess what? I have 110 episodes of my podcast. I've never had a guest, so I know you're hustling me.

Speaker 2

It's not [inaudible] .

Speaker 3

I had one shot to get my attention. You blew it, right? Don't us . So people, the alternative is to make work that attracts people to become the kind of person that other people want to share, that other people want to represent, that other people want to sit next to you. Do that. Work with empathy, not selfishly. And so that's the fork in the road.

Speaker 2

Oh, make work. It makes other people want to share. [inaudible] I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so we've clearly defined that Seth Goden has defined the difference between a hustler in the dicey Conaway and a hustler in the hockey rink. He's saying don't take the short path. He's saying create work that makes other people excited to share what it is that you do. So now I want to get into this. Really it's a hot topic and I'm sure you know it's part two is what are the wrong things in your mind that influencers are doing

Speaker 3

right? Okay. If you are using social media and you're not paying, you're not the customer, you're the product that the people who run social media want you to believe that you need to live this life because that's how they make money. And what's gone on is, particularly when it comes to to the way certain in areas of fashion or lifestyle have fallen for it. Hook, line or sinker is there's a long tail of micro-influencers with a thousand or 5,000 or 5,000 or 10,000 people who are sort of paying attention and it feels like you're a TV star. It feels like you have an audience and in the short run it's entirely possible that you will score a small sponsorship or that people will send you some free samples or you will go somewhere and be recognized. But as bill Murray said, given the choice between being rich and being famous, it's better to be rich.

Speaker 2

Amen.

Speaker 3

Famous later. But number two is 5,000 people, 10,000 people. Unless you are doing a very specific B2B sort of thing and we can talk about that later, that's you're never going to be able to be adequately rewarded for the time and the energy you're putting into it. So what I'm getting at is if it's your hobby to dress a certain way or talk about something that you love for 5,000 people, please do it. I love that. But don't get confused into thinking it's your profession because you might want to be the next Kardashians . But the thing is, we already have our Kardashian , we don't need another one. And the very fact that there's our Kardashians proves that it's possible, but it also means it's extremely unlikely that there will be a thousand of them. There will definitely not be 10,000 of them. And so if you want to start a podcast, if you want to have 10,000 people following you on Instagram, go for it. But it's not a profession. What makes something a profession is that you are singular. You are hard to replace that for the smallest viable audience that you can live with. You are the one who's worth driving across town for spending effort to go interact with. The problem with the internet is easy and easy out. And so if you're doing something where it's easy in , please understand lots of other people are doing it too and you don't have any insulation because there is nothing that you own other than that the social networks have momentarily giving you attention, but they will take it away and then they will start charging you for that attention. And that's not a good place to be either.

Speaker 2

Mm . So everything you said, I feel like it's just time for you to drop your podcasting. Mike, you could just walk off this stage right now. So it's not enough for us to say cause I agree wholeheartedly. I do believe even in the current landscape that influencers, regardless if it's easy and or easy out, you're not getting compensated enough. Somebody is winning on a such grander scale that the inequity leaves me gobsmacked. So because that I want anybody listening who could see that they find themselves that they are replaceable. What then you as a Sage and guru would you say to them? What's the path for them to get out of that?

Speaker 3

Okay, well I'm not a Sage or a guru. I am not shy or sort of opinions. What does it mean to be in and of itself one and only to stand for something? Well it starts with saying I not, it starts by not saying I'm going to be the next blank. Not modeling yourself after someone who came before in the way you dress and the way you talk and the people you seek to serve because they are still here. Right? Number two, it means you're going to do things. Then a lot of people don't get the joke that if you are doing something that is beyond reproach cause it's so squarely in the middle of what everyone else is doing, that means it's invisible and the alternative is to be a meaningful, specific, not a wandering generality. Which brings us back to this idea of the smallest viable audience that if you can narrate, if you can lead, if you can connect a small but viable group of people, you get to call the shots. So I'll give you a couple of examples. Esther Dyson, who has been at this for a very long time, started with someone else, a newsletter a really long time ago. And what the newsletter did was it only went to venture capitalists and opinion leaders in the media. 3000 people was the maximum subscription and it costs $3,000 a year to get the newsletter. And what you also got was an invitation to a conference she ran. Now, if you were one of these 3000 people, you had to read the newsletter because in it she had been talking before you even heard of them, of all the entrepreneurs with new technologies of all the leaders with new ideas. So if she talked about them, your competitors were reading about what they were up to, and you had to read it too . So Esther in an office with just two or three people was making $9 million a year writing a newsletter and mailing it to people, or let's fast forward 20 years to Bob Lefsetz. Bob writes about the music industry. Bob's newsletter is read by all of the best, most important music executives. He is showing up again with an email newsletter to the people who need to read it, and you can bet that if someone needs to hire a speaker lefts , this is on the short list because he's the guy in the center. He has connected the community of people but doesn't have to be a business. You could connect all the people in America who have a boa constrictor, who care about raising boa constrictors who want to know the latest about boa constrictor as well. Who is their spokesperson? Who's their connector? Who's deciding who's up and who's down. There is a slot for that, but the place that's super crowded where it doesn't make a lot of sense to go is the hybrid between Martha Stewart and Pinterest because in that space, everyone's an expert and no one's doing work. That's particularly grueling for a specific group of people who care about that issue. So you need to pick a much less attractive issue with a definable audience of people who will know that they are being left out if they're not hearing what you are saying.

Speaker 2

Oh , okay. So will you, will we tap here for a second so we can get granular, cause this example really hones into the audience, that gap between Martha Stuart in Pinterest and then you say you must find a zone where people feel misrepresented or don't have a voice. Like can you give us an example for somebody listening like , but the big question I get often after is how Seth, how do I do that? Like what are like what would you do if you're like, I see this gap. What would Seth do in this exact space?

Speaker 3

Well if you were a lifeguard and someone was drowning, you wouldn't wait for authorization or a certificate, you would save them. So what we're looking for are drowning people. What we're looking for are people who aren't waking up in the morning feeling completely sufficient and aren't going to bed. Sated at the end of the day, there's something that they need. There's some connection that they need. There's an inherent missing key. And if you can weave together a network, not be a broadcaster cause broadcasting is, is, is pretty much over, but be a connector to organize that circle of people, right? So you know, many people listening to this have heard sounds true, which is the people who make a Buddhist and mindfulness tapes in books and things like that. So when Tammy showed up, if you were following that path, there was no one out there who heard you, who saw you, who could be the person who could connect you. But now all she has to do is say, we're going to get together this weekend in Boulder and 400 people say I'm in, right? Because she's organized, the disorganized, connected, the disconnected. So you could get completely practical. You could say, I'm going to just organize all the drew people who sell jewelry on Shopify, right? Narrate and connect and rank and discuss for them. Buy them with them. That category because if you got a headstart there, no one will ever catch up because why would someone want to join the second group on this topic? They want to join the first group on this topic and so that's what we get to do is we get to weave together circles. It could be based on geography, based on interest, based on profession, but there are , none of them are in the middle. None of them feel like entertainment weekly. None of them feel like this is what everyone is doing because everyone is too big a category.

Speaker 2

I love this. It's to build a circle around people who feel like their voice isn't heard and serve them well regardless of how big that circle is. Now, could I, could I extend it to say once you have served that circle really well, you believe that that circle will or will you say, I can build a concentric circle around a slightly different topic. People want to know the next step,

Speaker 3

right? Well if you do a great job in the right topic, people will tell the others cause it's in their interest to tell the others. Now there are some topics where that's not true. If a topic is associated with shame, if a topic is something where the people who are in it feel insufficient, they might not feel confident enough to tell the others. Right? But here's what's interesting. Everyone has heard of alcoholics anonymous even though they're anonymous, even though they don't have an office that we know of. No brochures, no ads. How come? The reason is because one of the unspoken rules of alcoholics anonymous is you always talk about alcoholics anonymous. Cause if you know someone who needs to join it , your obligation to bring them in, right? And so again, it's going to be different for different circles of people. But ideally, if your goal is more scale, pick a circle of people who will benefit by bragging about the fact that they're in the circle.

Speaker 2

Mmm . That is so good. And that leads us to point in over part number three. Okay. I know I feel like you're warming up, but I've given you, I've given you two soft pitches. I don't want you to hit it out of the ballpark. Uh , how do you define authenticity? In quotes. And if you're not a fan of this like air quote , authenticity. Why and how do you think we can make it better?

Speaker 3

So here's a great excuse. Oh I couldn't do that because I just don't feel authentic. I don't feel like that would be authentic. Do you know when the last time we were authentic was when we were two months old lying in an a diaper. Right? Because ever since then, everything we've ever done has been calculated. We calculated what to wear today. We calculated the sentence that came out of our mouth. When we feel like punching our boss in the nose, we don't punch them in the nose . Why? Cause we're being in authentic . We are being humans. We are making a choice on behalf of the people around us. So please don't hide behind that. Not authentic. I think it's totally legit to say it's not consistent. Not consistent. It's not consistent for Hawk Hogan to start a little business that sells flowers. Right? Cause that's how it Hulk Hogan is supposed to do. But it's easy for me to say that cause Hawk Hogan is not a real person. He's a brand. He's right. We have an expectation. Well Jasmine star is a brand too. And since you're a brand, you don't get to be authentic. You don't get to do whatever you feel like and expect that it will work. You can do whatever you feel like if you're willing for it not to work. You can say whatever you want if you want us to walk away. But if you want to serve us, you gotta be consistent and you have to do it for us, not for you. And so when you pick one of these segments, I don't care if that's what you woke up dreaming of. You said you wanted to be a professional and professionals, they do their work whether or not they feel like it. If you go in for knee surgery, you don't want to hear from the surgeon, Oh Hey, I was in a bad mood today so I didn't do a good job. No, you're in a good mood and do a good job. Cause that's why I hired you.

Speaker 2

Pretend like I have the world's most precious knee . That's what I need from you in this moment. It's exactly, that is so true. I've never heard it from, I've never heard it from that perspective, and it feels, well, dare I say it, it feels so authentic. Okay. It is. It is.

Speaker 3

It means that you should choose something to do where you can live with yourself as you do it consistently. But once you make that choice from now on, you're off the hook in the sense that it's not personal. It's professional. And if you're not a professional, for example, if you're a doctor, the first time someone dies, you've got to quit. Right? But professional doctors understand one out of X number of people, they're just not gonna make it. It's not about you. It's you chose to be a doctor. And the same thing is true. Whatever path we go down, I just, I feel like most people use the word authentic, are actually using it as an excuse to hide and to show a lack of empathy. [inaudible]

Speaker 2

that is so true. I couldn't agree more. Okay. So now that we have the audience with us at this point in time, I think it's so important because I know you're , you're a big fan of story versus data. So I want to know Seth's origin story because people are listening and they're hearing this and your brain, the fire, but people want to know how did Seth become this way? At what point did your entrepreneur story start or your freelance story started if it was that at the time.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So this is another good trap because if I'm different than you, now you're off the hook. Talk about how extraordinary my parents were . You get to say, well, my parents weren't that extraordinary, so I'm off the hook. Yeah. Except I know orphans who are even better at this than me. That's not what's valid. The fact is, you know, I won the birthday lottery. A bunch of people did. I was born in the right place at the right time to the right parents or the right gender or the right race and the right country. And I never take that for granted. So are lots of other people and they're sitting in industrial jobs that they hate because early in the process or late in the process, you get to make a choice every day. Should I do something that in the short run gets me criticized in the short run, doesn't get me paid very well in the short run, makes me feel inauthentic, but in the long run allows me to serve other people or should I just go to work tomorrow and do it? My boss says, and that choice is available to almost everybody every day and I get that there are some people who have someone in their house they have to take care of or who are prejudice or disability and so it's harder and harder, but sooner or later in this environment where we all have a microphone, we can make a choice that you can make a podcast in 15 minutes a week. You can start with that. You can decide to help people see themselves in the work you're doing. Just watch a little bit less Netflix. Just turn off your email for a couple hours. That's what I'm asking people to do. Start where you are. Don't start where I was. Start where you are.

Speaker 2

Hmm . What do you think your purpose is? Like why do you think you're here on earth?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think that that would imply that someone other than me has already not figured out an answer. And uh , I know too much about evolutionary biology to believe that that's true. So all I know is that we are able to tell ourselves a story and we can use that story to motivate ourselves to do the next thing. And so I decided to tell myself the story that I'm a teacher and I want to be measured by what the people I teach teach other people. So if you're able to go help even one person help more people, then this conversation was totally worth it.

Speaker 2

[inaudible] that speaks so much to your legacy. Truly . Okay. So this kind of runs very parallel to this. Something we would just spoken about, but for a years you have shown up and you'd give in knowledge and you've given insights and you're a pioneer in effective marketing and leadership. But people might look to you and think, well, Seth can do it because he's written 19 bestselling books and he's inducted in the marketing hall of fame and he's world renown . But you make the argument that when we don't share, we're selfish. If you give me three seconds, I want to ha I have to read something he wrote because it just, it , it . It was like a harpoon to my heart. You are often, we choose to be selfish because we feel insufficiency. I don't have that much time. How can I possibly share it? The insecurity that comes from feeling like our foundation is weak or our future is uncertain, can cloud our instinct to be generous and in economy based on connection, trust and attention. The posture of generosity is not only the highest yielding strategy, it's the right thing to do. Ideas shared go up in value. So if there is somebody who's listening right now and they don't want to, or they're scared, they're intimidated to share their experience, their expertise or their experience or what they know, what would you tell them right now?

Speaker 3

Start under another name. Huh? Just start a blog under somebody else's name. Start a podcast with a make believe name, right? Go on YouTube with a mask on. I don't care so up. You don't have to put your name on it. And if people hate it, they won't even know it was . You show up. My guess is after you show up 10 times, you're going to want to use your real name because you care so much about the work that you are doing and you don't to do this online. You can go down to the local animal shelter and do it. You can go down to the local hospital and do it. You know they need you. You can go down to the local soup kitchen and do it so you're not going to get paid anyway. So might as well go do it in someplace that isn't going to pay you. And then after a while, people are gonna notice how generous you are and someone's going to cook , show up and say, I see how much value you're creating. Can I hire you to do something? And then you'll get paid. But first you give it away. And give it away and give it away and give it away. And maybe nothing happens, but at least you made things better.

Speaker 2

Oh . So as we close, you've been transformative and foundational in how I've approached starting a brand. And the thing that I've learned over the years is that I don't need money. I don't need connections. I don't need credentials. A brand is how you make somebody feel. And so as you share this information and as you're telling people to share their expertise at a dog shelter in a soup kitchen, wherever it may be, for somebody who's on the precipice, who may not have a legitimate full form business and they want to share what they know, and they also aspire to create a brand, but they don't really know how. In closing, what would you tell them? What would be like the first steps? Like this is what I would do in any way, shape, or form to start creating a brand?

Speaker 3

Well, let's be clear. You already have a brand. Uh, all a brand is , is a shortcut of what we think you're going to do next. So , uh, consider Hyatt and Nike. If Nike opened a hotel, most people would know what it would be like. But if Hyatt came out with a brand new sneakers, no one would have a clue because Hyatt has a logo but their brand is, I don't know , Nike has a brand because we have an expectation for what they're liking , what they're going to do next. So the way you build a brand is by being consistent. You make a choice, not authentic but consistent and you show up in the same way for people again and again. Now you have the brand you intended that . Oh , okay .

Speaker 2

Seth Goden you are a gift. Thank you for taking time out of your day. Thank you for enlightening us. Thank you for speaking truth with a capital T and empowering us to stand in what we are here to do and tell ourselves a story you told yourself yours , that you told yourself you're a teacher and your legacy is that if other people are empowered to share what they know. And I am living Testament of that. So thank you for empowering me to spread it your story. And for others to do the same. I appreciate you.

Speaker 3

Thank you so much. Keep making this ruckus. It matters.

Speaker 2

Okay, friend , did you expect Seth to drop his podcasting? Mike after every sentence with all of these knowledge bombs he was dropping? This was such an incredible conversation. Seth Godin, if you ever have an opportunity to listen to this podcast, thank you for coming on and secondly, thank you, sweet, amazing listener for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this interview, please leave an iTunes review for the Jasmine star or a view on any of the platform you're listening on. My mission is to help as many business owners as I can build a business and market it on social media so they can design a life they love and your reviews and all reviews help us do just that. I am so grateful for those of you who've already left a review like searching photo, who said, I followed Jasmine star for her whole career. She's taught me the best things I know as a business owner. Join her tribe and you won't regret a minute of the wonderful knowledge, this beautiful woman shares with her audience both freely and those on the inside of social curator. Well , I feel like I should follow that up with a hashtag humblebrag either way. Thank you so much or seeing photo. Until next time, I hope you have a great week and I will see you soon.

Speaker 1

[inaudible] .