Nonverbal Communication Secrets That Drive Sales and Build Trust with Blake Eastman

Have you ever wondered how much of your communication happens without saying a word? In today’s episode, I’m chatting with Blake Eastman, founder of The Nonverbal Group, behavioral researcher, former professional poker player, and absolute genius in understanding human behavior.

Blake has a unique talent for unpacking the nuances of human interactions, helping you not just become a better entrepreneur but also a more connected and effective leader.

Together, we explore how nonverbal communication can transform the way you build trust, close sales, and lead with confidence. Plus, Blake reveals the biggest complaint employees have about their bosses—and how to fix it.

This conversation goes beyond body language—it’s about stepping into your most aligned, impactful self in every interaction, whether on a webinar, in a virtual team meeting, or during a sales call.

If you’ve ever felt unsure about how you present yourself as a leader or how to foster deeper connections in business, this episode will leave you inspired and ready to take action!

Click play to hear all of this and:

(00:03:49) How nonverbal cues can become your secret weapon to build trust and close more sales

(00:04:27) How to spot key nonverbal signals when hiring the right talent

(00:10:44) The secret that separates effective sales calls from the ones that miss the mark

(00:13:19) Why authenticity is your superpower for winning more sales

(00:16:58) The link between self-worth and selling—and why it’s about more than your pitch

(00:21:25) The biggest lessons poker can teach you about strategy and decision-making

(00:30:05) Values vs. principles—and why principles might be the better focus for your business

(00:44:56) How to make quick hiring decisions when they’re necessary but not ideal

(00:48:12) Nonverbal cues that reveal trustworthiness in candidates when hiring

(00:48:51) How to evaluate fit during interviews and decide if a candidate complements your team

(00:59:09) Contextual vs. literal communication styles—why understanding the difference is crucial for team dynamics

(01:02:11) Why detailed responses matter for fostering better communication on your team

Listen to Related Episodes:

• How to Create More Meaningful Relationships in Business
• How to Become a More Effective Leader [Growth Challenge: Day 3]
• How to Create Team Systems and Operations That Simplify Scaling and Growth

Connect With Blake Eastman:

• Instagram:

Join me for my free (no pitch!) 3-part live class series Scaling Accelerator for 7-Figure Business Owners - I’ll break down the exact systems, marketing frameworks, and time management processes to grow your business, get in front of your ideal client, and ensure you are operating at the highest level. Sign up for free at JasmineStar.com/scaling — and learn how to scale to 8-figures.

You know that feeling when you find a platform that just works—and you never have to worry about switching? That’s been me and Showit for the past 10+ years.

I built my website with Showit because it gives me total design freedom.

If you’re ready to build a website that works FOR you—and not against you—head to JasmineStar.com/showit for a 14-day free trial + first month free when you subscribe!

Transcript

Jasmine Star 00:00:00  Welcome to the Jasmin Starr Show, where I'm going to tell you. I just geeked out, you guys. I've just. I said before the camera started rolling. I am excited, but I'm also way too excitable right now. And then of course, the guest today is like, well, we could talk about it on the podcast. And I was like, no, no, no, no. So I have to say, before I actually start the formal introduction, I went deep on today's guest because I met him in an online capacity and then began following his work and then went down rabbit holes. So I prepared a lot for this because he has so much insightful insight for entrepreneurs to learn yourself better, to learn how to lead better, and then learn how to grow your business better. So there was that. Except for the fact that I said, oh, you know, I really love recording in my home because I'm an introvert. And he stopped me in my tracks and he said, well, there's no such thing as an introvert.

Jasmine Star 00:00:40  I was like, oh, I'm sorry, that's a benchmark of my life. And he said, no, no, no. And so time out. I have a whole framework of what we're going to do with today's guest, and we're going to deploy on that. But if for any minute at the very end we can get into the introvert extrovert conversation, we're going to dive there because this podcast is made for you. But if I can keep 10% for myself and be a little bit selfish, we might end up doing that today. So consider yourself warned. Okay, so Blake Eastman describes himself as studying and optimizing human behavior and interactions. And you might be thinking, well, what does that have to do with me? What does it have to do with business? Well, let me give you a shortcut. I was a part of a leadership executive program with Gary Vaynerchuk, and we would meet every single week, and every week they would bring in a guest speaker. Now, what they did at the beginning was they said, these are all of our guest speakers and these are their topics.

Jasmine Star 00:01:29  So I went through like the studious nerd that I am, and I started putting little stars by the classes. I was like, girl, you better come correct, because this is the one you have to be 110 on. And so the title of it was Nonverbal Behavior. And I wanted to know nonverbal behavior because your girl was born with RBF. Like my natural disposition is I look at you like I'm angry when I'm very deep in thought. I'm like, I'll give you dirty look. And then the better ideas you become. I keep on giving you a dirty look and a dirty look. So that's so good. It hurts. That's so good. It's bad. But if you don't know me about me, like my nonverbal, you're probably thinking she hates this idea. She's the worst. She's being judgy. Okay, so what he taught us in this call was how to use nonverbal behavior to lead a virtual team. 99.9% of the businesses I run, I'm running with virtual teams, and my interactions are done online.

Jasmine Star 00:02:21  And so within the first five minutes of Blake Eastman's presentation, I was sold hook, line and sinker because I said, whoever this guy is, I had no idea who he was. And I was a completely in because he optimizes human behavior. And as somebody who really wants to pursue becoming a better version of myself, I was like, this guy is gonna give me the fast track. So let me read a little bit so you have some context. Professor, author, speaker, former professional poker player, and founder of the non-verbal group. He's developed proprietary tech studying nonverbal behaviors, completed thousands of hours of research consulted with massive companies and organizations like Google. He offers programs and courses in helping people like me and you become better leaders without words. That was a long one. Did I tell you I was excited? Did I tell you I did my homework because I'm actually meeting with the professor? Yes, sir. Welcome to the show, Blake Eastman.

Blake Eastman 00:03:10  Thank you. That was really good. Thank you for being here.

Jasmine Star 00:03:13  I'm so happy. I'm so, so, so happy.

Blake Eastman 00:03:15  Thank you for having me.

Jasmine Star 00:03:16  Because I'm dealing with somebody who is, I think, very good. From what I've studied, what I've learned, you're very good at having a thesis being linear, but you're very, very good at making it very easy to get value. And so I want to say thank you for being here. Now I am going to break the podcast up into three sections, if that's okay with you. And then like always, I come in with a plan and sometimes the guest is so phenomenal. The plan kind of shifts a little bit, but I want to have three main points. Main point number one, how can entrepreneurs use nonverbal communication to build trust and get more sales?

Blake Eastman 00:03:49  Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:03:49  Point number two, how can entrepreneurs use nonverbal communication to build stronger teams. Okay. And number three, when hiring people for your team, what are non-verbal signals that we can look. As we're interviewing that build trust. How do I know somebody's embellishing their resume? How do I know if there's somebody is unable to admit that they're fit for the job, but they're already in the interview? Like, what are the things that I'm looking for? Now, do you hear all of this and think that this is three separate episodes? Yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:04:14  Kind of.

Jasmine Star 00:04:14  I know I said it out loud. I was like, girl, it's like. It's like, are you here until next Tuesday?

Blake Eastman 00:04:19  Because we might be here.

Jasmine Star 00:04:20  This whole time. How about this? We'll start in. We'll start in and try to hit for sure points one and two. And if we can get to three that would be. That would be great.

Blake Eastman 00:04:27  And there's overlap okay. For sure.

Jasmine Star 00:04:29  So you and I are on an elevator and I ask you what do you do? What's your response to me?

Blake Eastman 00:04:36  It changes a lot. Okay. So I believe in a more dynamic introduction. So how you introduce yourself is probably one of the most interesting things, because it creates a segue for other people to latch on to. So you want your introduction to have sort of like latches. Matches. So some people have an introduction, like, I feel like a lot of business owners have that standard. Like I help X do X to have the life of X, right? Like that's kind of their introduction, which is great for certain constructs.

Blake Eastman 00:05:04  But in an elevator it might be a little bit outside of the distribution of what people are used to. So I change it up a lot.

Jasmine Star 00:05:10  So okay, so, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a founder, and I really love chatting up business. I ask you, hey, what do you do?

Blake Eastman 00:05:16  I would lean on the business side. So I was like, oh, I actually run a behavioral research company that does large scale studies on human behavior. We work with a lot of big companies. So for example, we analyze your entire team through zoom channels. So every single zoom interaction you have, we pull in you software to analyze it and find problems with team issues and dynamics and help you become a more sort of effective and aligned leader.

Jasmine Star 00:05:36  Okay. And if I introduce myself, I'm like, oh, I'm a wife, mother. I live in Newport Beach, California. What is?

Blake Eastman 00:05:41  I would probably just go immediately after, oh my God, I was just in Newport Beach.

Blake Eastman 00:05:44  I love Newport and I wouldn't even introduce myself.

Jasmine Star 00:05:47  What's your metric for determining what information you're.

Blake Eastman 00:05:49  Like that was like more one was like more of a professional context. The other one was more just like personal. And then I would segue to it. I just believe in being like dynamic as a person. And the way the more dynamic you are, the better you get in any construct you're in. So for example, like if you're there are people that practice their introduction over and over and over again and it's incredible. But then they're in a situation where it's like you're now trying to squeeze an introduction into an area where it doesn't make sense relative to the cultural context.

Jasmine Star 00:06:16  I have to interrupt because when you had said, I like to be a dynamic, that's a word that I can understand. You know how sometimes when you're talking with your partner, aka like my husband or your wife and they say something to you and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, and then somebody else can say virtually the same thing, but you have to hear, okay, so my husband, I think all these years have been trying to say to me, Jasmin, you need to be dynamic.

Jasmine Star 00:06:35  I am I have one intro and he's just like, you know, Jasmine, if you're talking to your version of yourself as a mom in an elevator, you don't need to tell people that exact thing. I was like, babe, I practiced my elevator pitch. I have one thing. And then I say, well, it's just because I'm awkward and I don't like to make small talk. So I get to the thing that is the main thing. And then I was watching a piece of content from yours. It said, you don't really believe in people owning that they're awkward or no, no, you believe okay. What? Fix me.

Blake Eastman 00:07:00  I oh, so all awkward is is like behavior that doesn't have a context. That's all it is.

Jasmine Star 00:07:08  Oh, God. That's me. That's the story of my life.

Blake Eastman 00:07:09  Yeah, it's just like. But I wouldn't consider you to be on the. So this is the. This is how I say it, right? You're highly socially competent. Okay? You have a high level of energy.

Blake Eastman 00:07:20  Okay. I have not seen any indications once of where you were awkward. And I almost feel like saying you're awkward. It doesn't diminish your credibility, but it diminishes the for those who are actually awkward. Because if you're awkward. If I curse. Sorry. No. It's you. If you're awkward, then the bar for awkwardness is okay. Insane.

Jasmine Star 00:07:42  Then help me rewire the neural pathways. We're going to get to the business questions, but real quick, because I think that there might be people here who don't actually understand. I literally will visualize the hello. The how are you? The making of the small talk, making sure somebody feels welcome, warm when I feel immediately adult thing I say offer the water. What kind of water? Where are we going? I'm doing this like I literally do those things. And so when people are like, Jasmine, you seem to be in your head, bro. I live in my head because if not, I'm just like, dead time. Awkward.

Blake Eastman 00:08:15  It's not necessarily a bad. All right, so we'll zoom back. So the objective function of everything I do is sort of in a social interaction, we want to increase the amount of value we add. We want to increase the amount of value we extract. But most importantly we want to minimize the suffering. That's like a big thing. So for example, I could coach someone in minutes to have more energy and be more maybe how society would perceive to be charismatic. Like I could snap out of it to myself and completely change in a bunch of different ways, right? The issue is, if coaching somebody to do that is going to increase their amount of day to day suffering, it's not an effective strategy. So some people go through life thinking they need to be a certain way, and that certain way might be like really good. It might be great, but the amount of energy that they have to dedicate towards being that person consistently over and over and over, it's just not fundamentally it's not worth it.

Blake Eastman 00:09:08  So it's really boils back to like where people are suffering and then how to sort of reduce that suffering by still adding and extracting value from social interactions. Right. But part of me thinks that like you're you have a predictive quality to how you think about social interactions. So anybody who's predictive in nature but doesn't suffer about the predictions is going to just be way better in social interactions because you're thinking steps ahead of people. But then it ties back to like whether you're present or not present or trying to dominate or control the situation. And I.

Jasmine Star 00:09:38  Literally feel like this is.

Blake Eastman 00:09:39  Therapy.

Jasmine Star 00:09:39  This is therapy. So my husband is always just saying, like, can you just be present? Can you be in the moment? And when you had said about being predictive on social interactions, but I'm predictive about everything. Yeah. Like I'm the person who's chasing, you know, people are playing checkers and I'm chasing out here, but in all aspects of my life. And so I feel like this is legit therapy.

Jasmine Star 00:09:57  And so before we make this literally like optimizing for the Jasmin show, what I want to do is let's make it for people who are watching. Unless there's a group of people like me who's not introverted, not awkward, just redefining what it is, maybe we have a different episode, so we focus more on that. But when Blake had said about the idea that we want to minimize suffering, a lot of times when it comes to building our business, we struggle to think that we have to be something or do something. So I want to bring this down to an entrepreneur. And one of the things is, have you ever been on a virtual sales call? You are the consumer and you're watching this sales person and you're watching being sold to. Have you ever been in an experience? And I'd love to hear it two ways. What if somebody's done in a sales experience that made you say, oh, I'm building trust, likability, confidence. I'm actually happy to kind of make this investment. Or what other things have you experienced? You're like, this is terrible.

Jasmine Star 00:10:44  Somebody needs to talk to this person and be like, fix it.

Blake Eastman 00:10:47  I mean, so this is interesting going back to me. I'm a very straight to the point. So I respect that level of candor. Is it. All right. So it's always worked when people on a sales call. Also I hate I hate scripts personally. So if I hear hey Blake, so thank you so much for coming here today. So I'm gonna take you through this 45 minute presentation. We're going to go over it. I like it, and I like just stop and I will just like stop like, no, no, no. Like, does it do these features. Yes. No. Okay. It's not gonna work and be like, thank you so much. I don't want to waste your time or my time. She's not gonna work for you like, so I'm very quick to the punch in that regard. But for me, like, the whole process we teach with sales is sort of dynamic aspect.

Jasmine Star 00:11:21  Can you clarify for the listener viewer who's unfamiliar when you say we teach sales, what? Give me the context in.

Blake Eastman 00:11:27  Which basically we have this thing called behavioral sales where we analyze like actual sales interactions, and we sort of teach people higher level communication skills to know when they're like, not interested, disengaged and like what to do with that. And I have always thought that the higher level sort of sales interactions are more. It's it's hard for me, actually, because it's like scripts do work at scale. Like if you have a well dialed in that optimizes for certain triggers, it's not that they don't work, but it's just not how I would prefer to do things. I want people to understand that I heard them, that listen to them and all of that. So I just I go down. Most of my sales calls are not structured at all. I'm like, all right, so tell me what you're going through.

Jasmine Star 00:12:04  So what do I what I hear you say and then always correct me, I like to repeat back is you're saying that as general advice to entrepreneurs who are looking to increase their sales.

Jasmine Star 00:12:12  What I hear you say is keep it dynamic and understood that the other party is heard and understood.

Blake Eastman 00:12:17  I would say if we're talking about entrepreneurs and sales, I actually would lean less on physicality and behavior and lean more on process.

Jasmine Star 00:12:30  Really.

Jasmine Star 00:12:31  Okay, let's add a twist here. One other element. Have you ever taught for your courses or programs in a large scale way. Like, let's say an Instagram Live or a webinar. Or from stage. And you have to have like a global message that will actually result in a transaction. Is there something that you're doing or really cognizant about your nonverbal behavior? Because essentially you are trying to say, how do we how do you make me better?

Blake Eastman 00:12:53  Yeah. So like at the end of the day, I will say that your best style of sales is likely to be when you're the most comfortable and not in some sort of sales mode. So like the way that you talk to husband, wife, partner, best friend, that's probably the best thing to benchmark for sales, because at the end of the day, like every social construction has these like invisible themes.

Blake Eastman 00:13:19  When you're in a sales call, you know exactly what it is. It's a sales call, right? So this is how you got to think about it. This is what I would really do in your industry. What I would do is understand what all the distribution of the sales calls look like. So for example, like if you're selling a, you know, a high end program, like, you know, they might do certain things, oh, what kind of life you're trying to build or did it like, you know, what they're doing and you want to do something slightly outside of that distribution of what's working so that you're refreshing and that you're different. And one of the ways to come across refreshing and different is to not to be like, hey, thank you so much for being here today. So I just want to go over to and just not be yourself and be yourself, as opposed to trying to be this like salesy version of yourself. And I really do believe that, like, people sort of know when they're being sold to.

Blake Eastman 00:14:03  So I try to like, yeah, I try to always flip it and it's like, no, I'm not selling. I'm not really directly. So pushing it, let's.

Jasmine Star 00:14:10  Get super practical. I've known I've done one on one sales and I have done at scale sales. And I can tell in the moment when I'm on a large scale webinar, tens of thousands of people, I could feel myself in the moment turning on to what I tell. Like the video crew, I got my sales voice podcaster, here I come. How do I in the moment? Because once I'm in, dude, I feel like I'm like, go. You have an objective and I'm very linear and focused. How in the moment do I say stop? This doesn't serve you. What are the things that I could do?

Blake Eastman 00:14:40  I wouldn't use the word sales. So like if I was mapping out a deck, it wouldn't be like the last three slides are the sales or the pitch I want. You could, of course, you could structurally say that.

Blake Eastman 00:14:51  Yeah, but I would say honestly convey the value that you're going to provide to this person in his most human genuine way that you possibly can. And, and there and then have, you know, your strong call to action and a timer and all those other.

Jasmine Star 00:15:06  Good, like.

Blake Eastman 00:15:07  Good structural things, but like, so.

Jasmine Star 00:15:09  When you're in the moment and I feel myself changing and I know, I know how it happens in my body, the, the octave I get become very like higher in my voice. And I begin to speak faster. When I go into pitch mode, it's higher. Speak. Go go go go go go go go go. Then I get into Q&A because for me, in the moment of the pitch, I feel like I'm asking. And it's that rubs against my personality. I want to give, give, give. And so I expedite. And in the middle of it I need to tell myself just be you.

Jasmine Star 00:15:37  Yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:15:37  And this is pretty manipulative, but this would really work.

Blake Eastman 00:15:39  You'd have the highest conversions if in the middle of your sales pitch.

Jasmine Star 00:15:42  Don't say I'm gonna cry. No, no, no. Okay.

Blake Eastman 00:15:45  You're probably doing the pitch, and then you go. You know what? I'm so like, you stop, and you're like, I was getting salesy, and I was getting like, listen, I've been building programs for the last 15 years, and I have made remarkable differences in so many people's lives. And it's an absolute pleasure to do this for you. And I promise you, we will return this investment like, unlike anything you've ever done. And it will be one of the best programs you've ever done. And it would be nothing would make me happier to be part of this group. So no sales if you're ready. If you want to put in the work, I will give you all the guidance and the support to get you there. And I would love to have you.

Jasmine Star 00:16:21  Because I'll give you my credit card.

Blake Eastman 00:16:23  Right now. It's outside of what people are used to.

Blake Eastman 00:16:24  And it's like more, you know, more genuine ask. But if you're like, thank you so much. So okay so here we go 5.99. And a lot of people also have their own stories and narratives around sales. So they'll use hidden language that shows like it's it's and the program is really expensive. And it's like why are you saying the program is really expensive? Because they have uncertainty about the pricing of their program, or they say their program is really cheap, or they say, like, you can see sort of the patterns in their language of what they want, but you got to tap into just like, yeah, quick, why should you get this program?

Jasmine Star 00:16:57  Oh, okay.

Blake Eastman 00:16:58  Well, and also another note of that, I strongly believe that if you can't do that, you've got other work to do. Like people always say like, oh, I feel like I'm like, maybe I'm an imposter or this is it, like you've got some other stuff to work on. If you can't sell the thing that you've built with the level of conviction that gets other people to sort of move, move the needle, I think sales is a really good understanding of like your perception of your own value and what you can contribute to others.

Blake Eastman 00:17:27  So it's a good litmus test.

Jasmine Star 00:17:29  On that note, I will say that I have become so much stronger in sales. When I started dealing with some of the baggage that I came with. Like growing up very poor. Like asking money. Feeling like I was raised on donations. And so if somebody's giving me something like, like psychologically, I'm thinking, oh, this is a donation. Like, they're being benevolent. They don't really believe in it. And so after I've worked through a lot of that, but before we move on to the next thing for somebody who's here and maybe hasn't done that level of work, somebody who's just like, okay, I actually have a hard time selling. And even when I try to show up as 100% myself, I don't feel worthy. I feel whatever the thing is, where do they start understanding what those issues might be?

Blake Eastman 00:18:03  I would say.

Jasmine Star 00:18:04  And before you answer this, can you just give a little bit of clarity on why I'm asking you this and how I feel like you, with a large study and background of psychology can speak to this?

Jasmine Star 00:18:12  Well, I've also.

Blake Eastman 00:18:13  Done this all like I've done the webinars. I've been through every stage of this entrepreneurial journey where I'm like, I can't believe I'm selling a $5,000 product, and is it really worth $5,000? And should I be doing this? And I've I've botched launches like I've been through it all myself, so I kind of like under. It's like harder to even give. Like the quick answer because it's a real it's a journey and and it's beautiful and it's great and it's hard and there's ups and there's down. There's things that work and the things that don't work. And I'll be honest, like I think sometimes some, some of the people that are a little bit in their own head about these type of things and nervous about the they actually usually are the people that provide infinitely more value than the people that are just like, I'm the greatest gift in the world, and you should sign up for my program. And da da da.

Blake Eastman 00:18:57  Da da da da da da da da da.

Jasmine Star 00:18:58  Da da. That's so good.

Blake Eastman 00:18:58  So it's kind of like your own. Your own narratives and stories at least show that you care at a level that means your product should probably be in the world more than others. And I think it's don't make it a bad thing. Make it that you're trying to create something really good for the people that you serve.

Jasmine Star 00:19:16  Thank you. That's amazing. Now, on the counter opposite side, can I show a different side of your personality? So what did poker teach you about business and negotiations. So a little bit of backstory you shared with us during the coaching online that you showed a tiny bit of your poker background. Yeah. Can you show us that poker background and then how is that shaped? I mean, because it was talk to me about the iteration from hiring a professor. You're a writer. You're a poker player. What is that? Gestation period. And then what did it teach you now as you teach others?

Blake Eastman 00:19:42  Yeah. So I saw the movie rounders when I was 17, and I was like, this is what I want to do.

Blake Eastman 00:19:46  I really have everything in my life. I have poker to thank because I wouldn't have had the money to do all the entrepreneurial pursuits and all of that. And I mean, poker teaches a lot of things. More than anything, it taught me the value of process. So in poker, you're always looking for you're not focusing on outcome. You're focusing on the process because you can get unlucky. So it's not about whether or not the decision was necessarily right or wrong. It was about the process that you've arrived to create that decision. And then, you know, poker is when I first started, I started teaching my classes in New York City, teaching people how to play poker. And I went from teaching people how to play poker for the first time to working with, like, the best poker players in the world on reading nonverbal behaviors and applying poker as a behavioral skill set or edge. But I think from a negotiation perspective, probably the asymmetry in negotiation, like one of my favorite quotes is like, whoever wants it more loses in a negotiation table.

Blake Eastman 00:20:38  I think it's just like such a.

Jasmine Star 00:20:39  Real.

Blake Eastman 00:20:40  Interesting thing to think about negotiations. And that's probably stuck with me more than anything else, because it's the same thing at a poker table. It's like people that want to win usually can't play the best variation of poker because they can't do more risky, take more risky lines, or take play a style that's harder to play against. But yeah, poker is a it's an incredible. You know, poker is also such an analogy for so many things where the game at its surface is so easy, but the levels of complexity are insane. So it's kind of like this, like if you met somebody that like if you looked at somebody's funnel, the things that are going through your head are infinitely like complex, like, oh, this, this, this, this, this. But if you're just first starting making your own funnel. It's just like, well, I have a landing page. I have a call to action. I have a headline, I have some testimonials.

Blake Eastman 00:21:25  It's more basic. Poker's the same way, but it's just so complex. Got it. Yeah. Great game if you want if anybody wants to.

Jasmine Star 00:21:31  So understanding the complexities and then understanding the asymmetrical value of it if you want to win it will likely impede your ultimate success.

Blake Eastman 00:21:39  Yeah. And you got to know your own value. That's what that's what I always do with the negotiation. It's just like, okay, like find somebody else who can do this and like, they can't. So it's like, all right, you got to pick me.

Jasmine Star 00:21:48  Before we move on to the next topic I had heard. And if you can correct me if I'm wrong, that you started teaching. So you're teaching poker players how to read nonverbal behavior, and then you you crowdsource your first course for teaching people nonverbal behavior or what what happens there.

Blake Eastman 00:22:04  So okay, this is the entrepreneurial journey. So I had the idea for this product called BioNTech's, which was going to be the first research study on poker players. So I.

Jasmine Star 00:22:13  I want to pause there.

Jasmine Star 00:22:14  Yeah. Like the level of and I say this with the deepest respect the level of nerd dom of research for poker tells heck.

Jasmine Star 00:22:21  It's so cool. People. It was people.

Blake Eastman 00:22:23  It was so, so. This was like the early entrepreneurial days, right? Like I had when I. I didn't understand the things that I understand now. I understand like upselling any of that. Right. So I had this idea I didn't have the money for the idea. So I made a landing page and I called Bartels and said, we're doing this study. It's going to the product's going to be out in three months, right? And it was $200 at that time. This was like 14 years ago. Okay. And I got a fair amount of people straight from my YouTube channel to that to purchase. They purchase, they became my first customers. That product is in it's it's going to the third version is coming out next year. So the people that crowdfunded it now it's like $2,000.

Blake Eastman 00:23:07  So I still get it. But when.

Jasmine Star 00:23:08  You say crowdfunded, can you explain in.

Jasmine Star 00:23:10  Terms of like, I basically.

Blake Eastman 00:23:11  I didn't crowdfund it, I, I sold the product before I made.

Jasmine Star 00:23:14  It like everybody like.

Blake Eastman 00:23:16  Okay. So but the problem was I started doing the research, and I got so involved that instead of it taking three months, it ended up taking ten years. So we did three, three, three studies. I went very hard, I went running. It was some of the most it was some of the toughest times in my life, like because I didn't know I was very good at product. I was good at research, I wasn't good at running a business. So I went to millions of dollars of debt and the IRS came after me, like all those fun entrepreneurial stories. But I wouldn't be the person I am today without that level of like, the reason why I'm good at writing emails is because I needed to eat and pay my rent from writing emails like, people are like sitting there.

Blake Eastman 00:23:55  How do you write that email in 20 minutes? Because, well, it didn't take 20 minutes at first. Took, you know, three days thinking about each word. And then it just gets easier and easier and easier.

Jasmine Star 00:24:02  I love this, and.

Blake Eastman 00:24:03  I do believe that, like sometimes whoever's in this, if you're in that mode of like that pressure on you, you don't realize, like you're developing skill sets now that I promise will serve you if you just keep going. Five years, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm about to do without all of that as a track record or as a background.

Jasmine Star 00:24:21  We're going to get to that. But I remember in 2024, I sat in a room with a group of very successful people, founders, and the person who was facilitating it looked around who was vastly more successful than all of us combined. And he had said, everybody needs to stop acting like they're rich. He's like, stop acting like you're rich. He's like, do you remember when you actually had to pay your rent based on what it is you were doing? He's like, you did whatever it took, and now you're overthinking and overanalyzing and having the long term effects.

Jasmine Star 00:24:48  He's like, stop acting like you're rich and write and create and do it. And I'm telling you, I left that room like somebody had lit me on fire. I was charged to the court, and I was like, you ain't a rich girl. And you were acting like you were acting like you were a billionaire. You're acting like you have so much time and optionality when we don't.

Blake Eastman 00:25:03  I've been there. I've done the same thing. You make some money, you're like, now I need this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and it's all just you hiding out that, like, that's really what, for me at least.

Jasmine Star 00:25:13  Okay. It was.

Blake Eastman 00:25:13  All me hiding.

Jasmine Star 00:25:14  Out.

Jasmine Star 00:25:14  So hiding out for me led me to understand a deeper and different part of me. And that was when I started to expand the business beyond what I thought was possible. I started building a team. And so because I knew that I preferred to work from home, I prefer I'm best solo.

Jasmine Star 00:25:30  I wanted a virtual team and so I was good with that. That's the type of team that I had built. And so now I want to know, after having done it for a few years, how do I show up better? Like, how do I how am I coming across on team meetings? And so how do we increase the awareness of how we're being perceived and how do we control how people are made to feel? All right.

Blake Eastman 00:25:50  So the team stuff is really easy. But like first the first thing is it's all about alignment. So you know the single what do you think the single biggest complaint all my executive team, every company I've coached. What's the single biggest complaint that people have about their boss. What do you think it is? It's not nonverbal.

Jasmine Star 00:26:09  I don't know that they can't tell their boss what their boss is doing wrong.

Blake Eastman 00:26:12  No, it's it's they change direction.

Jasmine Star 00:26:15  Oh, God. It's the.

Blake Eastman 00:26:16  Biggest one.

Jasmine Star 00:26:17  Oh, see, but this is. Did you see my non-verbal?

Jasmine Star 00:26:19  Do you see how I'm like that?

Jasmine Star 00:26:20  I don't buy them or anything.

Jasmine Star 00:26:21  I was like, y'all try driving a ship. Y'all try driving a ship in a torrential downpour in the middle of a tornado. You. That's tornado. Hurricane?

Jasmine Star 00:26:29  That's the water. That's the first. See?

Jasmine Star 00:26:31  Did you see me? Do you see.

Jasmine Star 00:26:32  How I do? But what you.

Blake Eastman 00:26:33  Just said is the answer to my question. So the answer to the question for leaders is 100%. To build a good team, your team needs more context than you're giving them. So you can show up however the you want, as long as you own the context. Like people don't like erratic behavior. But if you tell someone, listen, I'm so busy, I've got all these things going on. I'm doing all these podcasts. I don't have time for these like 30 minute meetings. So can we just make it, like, really short or, like, message me in slack? People understand. But when you don't give context, you just come across like, you know, whatever. And and that's what a lot of leaders do is they don't give context.

Blake Eastman 00:27:12  So okay, you had your whole team working in this direction and you're like, we're not doing that anymore. We're going this direction. Yeah. You could spend 3 to 5 minutes explaining the intricacies of why you made that decision so that they don't feel like their work has been diminished, or they don't feel like their work has been this. All right. It's just it's not that hard. It's just you need to overcommunicate, not overcommunicate. And then your team will appreciate love. And most importantly, you'll be aligned. They'll understand.

Jasmine Star 00:27:35  You. Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:27:35  Can I give you an example? And can you dissect it like a professor, like case study?

Jasmine Star 00:27:39  Okay. Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:27:40  So in January of 2025, we had reestablished our core values. And it took us a lot of time to do this and a lot of energy and months building into it. And so in January, the first team meeting all hands, people come in and I put together a keynote. I treated this like I was on a keynote on a stage, and I practiced it.

Jasmine Star 00:27:58  And I said, here is our 2025 plan. Here are new core values. This is what's going to be expected. And I felt excited, I felt nervous, I was like, okay. And at that time I'm studying and researching for our interview. And one of the things that you had said is to understand how you are being perceived is to not look at yourself in a zoom meeting or at your keynote, but to look at people's faces as you're giving it. So I went in being like, I'm going to apply be.

Jasmine Star 00:28:25  Eastman Research.

Jasmine Star 00:28:27  Quality. And let me tell you, it was like freaking Stonehenge. Yeah. Everyone's like.

Jasmine Star 00:28:32  And if you're.

Jasmine Star 00:28:32  Not, if you're just listening or you're not watching on YouTube, just picture, the blank stares of all time. And it wasn't just like one person, it was everybody and the world's blank stare. So I was like, girl, you can be. You're on fire and not on the Alicia Keys. Was like, you just burning down or I'm like, they're just so riveted.

Jasmine Star 00:28:50  They don't know how to verbalize. They don't know how to wear their expressions. But I'm like, I got off that call and I was like, I don't know. So what do I do then? And I was looking, I was looking.

Blake Eastman 00:28:59  So there's a like I said, okay, I have like ten podcasts just on that statement. Okay, come.

Jasmine Star 00:29:03  Back.

Blake Eastman 00:29:03  First. It's like one taking responsibility for your impact on others. So you have a lot of energy. You're extremely quick. You're extremely intelligent. You're to the point. You're this, you're that. So some of the somebody who feels like even if you call yourself an introvert, someone that feels like their behavior is more concerned, or if you're predicting ahead of them, they might have a little fear, like going up against what you're saying.

Jasmine Star 00:29:27  Oh, right. I know.

Blake Eastman 00:29:28  Or fear challenging you or fear. Like so that's. Yeah. So you have to be able to.

Jasmine Star 00:29:34  Fix me.

Jasmine Star 00:29:34  The part. Isn't that.

Blake Eastman 00:29:35  Like, the easiest way to contextually fix? The easiest way to. So nothing's broken.

Jasmine Star 00:29:40  So I'm big on that. But the easiest.

Jasmine Star 00:29:43  No, no. I'm a straight shooter. Just tell me. Like girl, you broke like you broken you a puzzle.

Blake Eastman 00:29:46  Like, the easiest way to say it is like, listen, I know I come across as XYZ and ABC. Here's what I really need from all of you to do. I need you to push back. I need you do this and routinely ask for it. And usually once 1 or 2 people start breaking it, then it creates a lot of people that they say that, but they don't want pushback. back. So be clear if you want, push back.

Jasmine Star 00:30:05  Right?

Blake Eastman 00:30:05  I do. Yeah. So if you want. Push back. It's totally fine. So it's like we need to create an environment where, you know, I'm hearing everybody else's thoughts because they feel like it's just, you know, no pun intended. Jasmine Cho.

Jasmine Star 00:30:14  Right? Like, I want to be able to.

Blake Eastman 00:30:16  Make sure you speak, and then you could put in systems like, I want everybody to start off with what we can do better. I'm not going to say anything and just let them go first and create structures that don't get them sort of concerned. Yeah. And then also the whole thing about core values, I mean, I like core principles better than values. Values are hard to scale in my opinion. So like I did this, we did this thing called behavioral core values where we say like, let us tell you what your values are. You don't tell me what the values are. So here you go to everybody's website, right? And they say like we respect we respect everybody's opinion. And then in the I'm watching a meeting and they're like that's not a good idea anyways okay. So let's.

Jasmine Star 00:30:50  So like you.

Blake Eastman 00:30:51  Clearly don't expect like these things are really hard to like spread throughout an organization. So usually companies will have like 5 or 6 core values or on their website or sometimes ten, which is absurd, but like, let's say that.

Jasmine Star 00:31:03  We have three. Okay.

Blake Eastman 00:31:04  That's that's really good. Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:31:06  So if we went.

Jasmine Star 00:31:06  From 5 to 3.

Blake Eastman 00:31:07  Yeah, that's I'm a big believer in that. And I really have seen that some of the most phenomenal teams really embody one really well. And that's it. Like I'm like you're not this, you're not this, you're not this, you're not this. But you really do embody this one principle. And that's what creates all the cohesion and alignment. So usually what we do with like organizations is like, all right, you're three is great. So if you have three core values, what I would do is every quarter would be a focus on one of the core values of integrating it and doing that more. And then like also for all of you that have like core values out there, you got to show visceral examples of what those core values are. So for example, like one of one of our like principles is like we always do the right thing and like, what does that mean? Always do the right thing.

Blake Eastman 00:31:53  So I have to show all the LinkedIn examples and all the stories of like somebody, you know, somebody's mom just died and they have practically no money. And it's four months later. Yeah, you could violate our refund policy. No problem for that. Do the right thing. You know, somebody was. I was once inspired by this one kid that was, like, fully paralyzed. And he was playing poker, and he was, like, making jokes with me on on email. I was like, what an inspiration, this kid. Give him everything for free. Like, do the right thing. And the more you show examples of what that is, it's easier for the person to sort of understand. Right. And, and I really believe if you if you get one core value and it's a good one and then you have good examples and you reinforce that throughout your culture, you're way better off than a company that has eight. And it's just like, what is this? And the I can talk about this for hours.

Blake Eastman 00:32:39  The number one thing with like let's say core values or principles is it starts with hiring. You have to hire people that are aligned with the values okay.

Jasmine Star 00:32:47  Okay okay okay. It's like you set me up to move to section three, but can I can you help me get better? Yeah. So we went from 5 to 3. We didn't take any of the former core.

Jasmine Star 00:32:57  Principles.

Jasmine Star 00:32:58  The new core values are core principles. When you had said normally a team will all drive to one, it was so clear what that one is. And then if I have two that I am going to be, it's where I told the team, we're playing a new game and there's new levels and there's new expectations. So two of the three, I think everybody on the team has the capacity to achieve and work towards. I don't. Time will tell if that is in fact what it is that they embody and behold. But the core value that everybody beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I say this with so much humility, because this team is nothing short of remarkable, powerful.

Jasmine Star 00:33:35  The thing that I've heard the most about the team in 2024, the word that kept on coming up, was excellent, excellent. And I didn't like that word. For me, it just felt too corporate. It didn't feel like I could sink my teeth into a lot of work went into the core value of extraordinary is our baseline. And I could look I mean, that's that's the one this team is extraordinary but extraordinary customer service. Extraordinary. Like doing the right thing. extraordinarily, with the content, the attention to detail. And so if I know that we have a natural pension and direction towards that, do I first lean into that one and say, hey, here are more examples. Let's do this. Or do I say, hey, we know we got this one. And then we start with the others and focus quarter or month. I mean.

Blake Eastman 00:34:12  We have the very same principle. Ours is like the bell curve. It's it's called, we say three standard deviations to the right.

Jasmine Star 00:34:18  Oh, God.

Jasmine Star 00:34:19  Tell me. Oh, God.

Jasmine Star 00:34:20  So tell me you work for a smart guy. Three standard deviations.

Jasmine Star 00:34:23  To the right. It's like if this is.

Blake Eastman 00:34:24  What everybody else is doing in a customer service. Okay, hold on, hold on.

Jasmine Star 00:34:27  For people who are not.

Jasmine Star 00:34:28  Watching the video.

Blake Eastman 00:34:29  So you have like you have this bell curve distribution, right? And most people fall in the average. And like as you move to the right or left of the bell curve it becomes less average. So like if you go three standard deviations to the right and you start moving to the right of the bell curve, it's an experience that that person's like, oh wow, I've never experienced this before. I never experienced.

Jasmine Star 00:34:46  A customer service.

Blake Eastman 00:34:47  Interaction like.

Jasmine Star 00:34:47  This before.

Blake Eastman 00:34:48  I never experienced an onboarding like this before. I never experienced and that's what. So sometimes I'll I'll look at a piece of so like my Instagram content that I started posting, right?

Jasmine Star 00:34:56  I was very proud of you. I went. It's like new Blade.

Jasmine Star 00:34:58  So we new blade, we posted.

Blake Eastman 00:35:00  It and I was we had a conversation about this. I was like, we're in the middle of the bell curve. So our goal over this next thing is to move that to the right side of the bell curve.

Jasmine Star 00:35:08  Now interesting.

Blake Eastman 00:35:09  This was a problem for me where I was afraid to be seen unless products were all the way on the right side of the bell curve. So you just want to you got to still get out there and then start moving it. But I think having that one principle and have everybody reinforce that principle is way better to pick up the like, ancillary thing. Like you have to understand if that's your core value and that's what you're really indexing on, you're going to get people that have a commitment to craft, you're going to get people that value their work. And those are all the core values that are a byproduct of that major thing. So I think that is perfect.

Jasmine Star 00:35:43  So and what I hear you say is I repeat it back, is we start here because if we take a focus every month on a core value, or you said every quarter, correct every quarter.

Jasmine Star 00:35:50  So we would start here.

Jasmine Star 00:35:51  I would just add.

Jasmine Star 00:35:52  Positive reinforcement and just ignore.

Blake Eastman 00:35:54  All of that. And everybody gets. Everybody will get rewarded. So like like somebody just said, well we should do this. And I was like, amazing idea. Like I love it. And it's like a little bit more closer to excellence. Okay. Closer to X and closer to excellence.

Jasmine Star 00:36:07  And you know what I'm saying in the back of my mind, cause I hang out with smart people. Three deviations to the right, baby. Yeah, three deviations to the right.

Jasmine Star 00:36:12  Like that's the.

Jasmine Star 00:36:12  Thing. Like, oh, that's my own personal mantra. Okay, so when it comes to attracting a team that will not just embody core values, let's talk about when we're hiring, because you said it's going to be important for you to have a team. I want to talk about two instances where I feel like I maybe you have you have smart language. What I call it is I'm pretty intuitive or I can read people, but I have been so notoriously wrong during interviews around reading people.

Jasmine Star 00:36:40  And I'm going to give you two examples and then you can break it down. So I was hiring for UI user interface and our CTO had said, this person. This person's it. So as a general practice, everybody who comes onto the team, they do their final interview with me and with our CEO. So we're having this conversation and I thought I was interviewing the wrong person. Hand to heaven. I was like, there's just no way. I'm like, this is wrong. This is wrong, and I'm not going to use this person's gender. So this person was kind of like slouch, very quiet, and would quick nod instead of saying.

Jasmine Star 00:37:15  Yes.

Jasmine Star 00:37:16  And very simple answers. That all ended with a question mark. Where did you go to school?

Jasmine Star 00:37:24  Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:37:24  University question mark. And I thought I got off and I said, there's just no way. So I went to the CTO. I was like, are you sure that this was the right person? And he's like, this is the right person.

Jasmine Star 00:37:32  I will come back and say that I trusted him, which was a very good decision. She was one of the I said she wasn't going to use her gender. Dang it. This person strongest UI. She was so good she ended up getting poached. I was so wrong with that. Blake. So there's cultural considerations. There's how am I? But what do I look for? And then I have somebody else who bombed and oh, I do very well because we say we're straight shooters. Yeah. Our cultural norm is radical candor. Like, I don't need a lot of emojis after. I just need you to do what you say and say what you do. And every time you get it, it's going to be a yes. And if I say great job, I really mean great job, but you're not going to get there because you're not doing a job. I'm not going to do a great job. If you don't.

Jasmine Star 00:38:08  Hear it, you know.

Jasmine Star 00:38:08  It. It's just that it's like, oh, I'm a ten out of ten.

Jasmine Star 00:38:11  This person's sensitive like a wild flower in the rain. I was like, honey, you just wilting right now. I was wrong on both ends of the spectrum, so help me.

Jasmine Star 00:38:19  Yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:38:19  That's a it's really interesting. So it's a byproduct of preference and your own lenses for people. So you're over indexing social acumen or social.

Jasmine Star 00:38:29  Effectiveness.

Blake Eastman 00:38:31  For being a byproduct of somebody like work. Like I have worked with people that are anxious and awkward and would not know what to do in a room of people and are incredible at what they do and our society. I mean, this is kind of the pitch for all the stuff that I do like. It's almost not fair. Like our society places so much emphasis on the ability to speak, on ability to be confident and hold a position and make a choice and all that stuff. But there are a lot of diamonds out there that just aren't good at that.

Jasmine Star 00:38:59  Okay, well help me.

Blake Eastman 00:38:59  Yeah, like, I mean, that would be I would just I would literally just put a post-it note on your laptop and be like, you know, high level of socialization is your preference.

Blake Eastman 00:39:10  Jasmine exclamation. Just as a way of not sort of diminishing somebody because of the fact that they're not showing up in a way that you like them to show up. And also.

Jasmine Star 00:39:19  Oh.

Jasmine Star 00:39:20  So what I hear is it's a me thing.

Blake Eastman 00:39:22  It's 100% you. Yeah. I mean, like because you think about it, you have a cool process. You trust your CEO, you've got all this stuff, and then they get to you and you're like.

Jasmine Star 00:39:28  There's no.

Blake Eastman 00:39:29  Way. It's like, Now there's a big difference. If you had to interact with this person on a daily level.

Jasmine Star 00:39:37  Facts, facts, facts, then you can't.

Blake Eastman 00:39:38  Like I had a I was interviewing an E that I loved on paper. And then when we were talking, she asked me to slow down. She's like, it's like, real quick, can you just slow down? It's not gonna work. It's like I am slowing down so much right now. Like I'm even slowing down for this podcast. Like, I am extremely quick.

Blake Eastman 00:39:58  Right? So, like, sometimes I don't even know what I'm saying. Like, I'm like, what did I just say?

Jasmine Star 00:40:02  Like, write the words count backwards in your brain. Oh, I didn't like that.

Blake Eastman 00:40:06  So that's a byproduct of preference. If I have to talk to this person, even for 20 minutes every day.

Jasmine Star 00:40:10  That's good. That's really.

Blake Eastman 00:40:11  Good. I can take it. Right. So also, you have to understand your team. All right. So I'll tell a quick story. So I was sitting there having my own like movie night and at like 1030, my CEO at the time, who's now a really good friend, sends me a slack message, which is like, weird. And it's long. And I was like, oh, like, what did I do? And basically we had a meeting and I like, came in and I, like bulldozed my way. And I kind of diminished her in the meeting and she's like, listen, I it's very difficult.

Blake Eastman 00:40:39  Like you're very quick on your feet. I'm a better writer. I need to think my thoughts out. I need to get better at that. He's like, I'm never going to compete with you in those settings. And you basically just diminished my authority in front of my entire team. And I was like, I'm so sorry, you're 100% right. Here's what we'll do. Let's switch to what your optimal channel of communication is. She said, what do you mean? I was like, just write everything so we don't need to have meetings like write it out in narrative form. What we need to do, and I'll say, yes, good. Done. So sometimes you just got to play to whatever the person's strength is, because sometimes they don't want to change and they don't want to be. I don't need everybody on my team to be gregarious and good communicators. Not necessary. Like do whatever you want. If you want to develop that, I'll help you. I'm glad to, but I don't need it.

Blake Eastman 00:41:24  So sometimes if you find people's best communication, just simply ask them like, what's your how would you prefer to do this? Oh, I would love to just write everything out. It helps me structure. Okay, great. Or I want to have meetings or I want to do looms or I want to do whatever.

Jasmine Star 00:41:36  It just makes it easier. Oh, I love that.

Jasmine Star 00:41:38  Speaking of an E, and here again I'm saying a story, but it's with an ask. So we have a 3698 trial period whenever we bring somebody on in a hiring position. And so I hired NEA. I thought she was phenomenal, extraordinarily articulate. Her communication was on point, and I was like, great, because my ear is going to be an extension of me outward facing. And 30 days into it, I'm like, I'm just not sure. So he said, okay, here's clear benchmarks to get us to 60. So we have our check in around day 65. And I, honest to God, I'm showing up in our Co was on the call because I told her I'm like, hey, I don't think this is going to work.

Jasmine Star 00:42:14  It's very clear it's not going to work. And so we get on the call and this woman is saying, well, what I need is and what you don't understand is. And I thought we were going to have a meeting where she was going to say it's not a fit. I was so sure that she saw it plain as day, baby, you can hang. And it was well I it. And as she's going, I'm pretty sure my face my nonverbal communication was subpar. Yeah, so much so that in a private zoom message, the CEO says, fix your face. And I was like, whoa! Oh, I was in such a state of disbelief that I couldn't help but where like, I was like, are we are you gonna make me? Are we gonna do this right now? In those moments, how do I actually channel or divert my nonverbal communication?

Jasmine Star 00:43:01  Well.

Blake Eastman 00:43:03  In that example, it didn't really even matter, right?

Jasmine Star 00:43:05  Oh, right.

Blake Eastman 00:43:06  Like in that example, it's almost like, okay, I guess this is like another podcast.

Blake Eastman 00:43:12  So facial awareness is a whole thing, right? Like people's awareness of what they look like on their face. So right there in that moment you lacked facial awareness. You didn't. But the truth was, it sounded like what I'm hearing is that the sentiment of your face was actually in alignment with what you were thinking.

Jasmine Star 00:43:28  Oh, yeah. So you were 100% aligned.

Blake Eastman 00:43:30  The problem is when it's mismatched. So the problem is when it's like, I kind of disagree with what you're saying just a little bit. And I'm like, what? But I just slightly disagree. And it looks like I really strongly disagree. Or when I'm really interested in everything you're saying and I'm like. You just had 100% alignment. Yeah. Well, I don't see anything wrong with that. And like for my team, I mean, this is a preference and this is the stuff I lead. Everybody works for me. Some people say it's good, but it's like family. Like, that's just how I do things. I like, and I talk in a way that will, you know, definitely get me canceled of some of these things gets out.

Blake Eastman 00:44:10  And I just am myself because I don't know how to be any. I don't want to have any friction for how I show up in, in front of a large group of people. It's a lot different if you're in a big corporate environment and can't do these kind of things. But at the end of the day, like in those 30, 60, 90, I will tell you, you will be a considerably better leader if you simply just if you have a problem, address it immediately and in an authentic in a straightforward way, like, listen, we're on, we're 30 days in and already in the first ten days. You relate four times. This. This has happened. Just help me understand what's going on for you. Like what's going on. And sometimes people say, listen, I want to bring this up. And it's some crazy they're dealing with like, totally got you. Don't worry. Let's restart in ten days. And sometimes they go, what are you talking about? And just right then and there it's like you're done.

Blake Eastman 00:44:56  So people are old. I've seen a lot of people I've, I've coached.

Jasmine Star 00:45:00  Like, oh, we're quick.

Blake Eastman 00:45:01  To hire and quick to fire. No you're not, you're quick to hire. You're quick to thinking about all the reasons why you should fire someone, but you don't actually pull the trigger. And what you're doing is a disservice for that person. So like whenever you see a problem with someone, you're like, I don't think this is going to work. This is what happens, right? So human behavior is just like so interesting. You see somebody do something. So let's say I have a designer, right? And I tell them so my team I don't like this was the actual real story. So I don't like rounded buttons. They piss me off. I like square buttons. It may be 1 to 2 pixel radius.

Jasmine Star 00:45:32  On the thing. I got it.

Jasmine Star 00:45:33  I got it, speak my.

Jasmine Star 00:45:34  Language.

Blake Eastman 00:45:35  And like I said this like three times and like it was a joke.

Blake Eastman 00:45:38  So they laid out this comp and every button was like a full circle. Okay. Right. And then I look and I'm like, I go like that. I'm like, what? And they all started laughing and they reverted the change and I lost. And I told him I was like, let me, let me, let me explain to you why I'm so weird about these things. I have such a visual obsession that when something doesn't look right to me, I have a hard time pushing it. So like.

Jasmine Star 00:46:05  Like a.

Blake Eastman 00:46:06  Sales page or something that has like errors and stuff like that. And I had to get over that because it was becoming a real problem. Like there should be 13 bold, not 12 or use this font or not that font, but once I explain the context, they're like, okay, I get why you're a weirdo. Totally like, we got you. Like we understand. And then I give them permission. Like you were allowed to spend an extra five hours making this landing page visually perfect on every browser.

Blake Eastman 00:46:29  I have no problem with that. You're allowed to spend 50 hours. Like, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for and I'll reward. So don't send me, like I said. And the more you have that discussion, the easier. But then when I have somebody that I hire and in the first week I say all this, they don't do it. On day seven I'm gonna listen. I said all these things to you. You didn't seem to do that. I'm like, I'm just trying to get the source. Why? And they go, well, it just doesn't go with, like, I didn't feel right. I'm like, okay, they don't get that. This is my company, that you're creative and I respect what you're doing. But I'm intimately involved in this. It's like you need to work with somebody that's like, I don't care about design. Just get it done right. And I'll have that conversation with them. And I'm like, this is going to be a lot of friction because at the end of the day, I like your creativity, but I want it my way.

Blake Eastman 00:47:12  So if you're okay with that, let's keep going. But if you're going to have to keep pushing back, this isn't going to work. And they go, it's going to be hard for me. I'm like, okay, great. So I have some friends that I think you'd be great for, but you're not going to be good here. It's done. Instead of why the hell? I told them I wanted to use black and they used use gray and just avoid all the suffering just by being straight and clear with people?

Jasmine Star 00:47:34  Okay, so one thing that, we were talking about was our nonverbal behavior or how to show up better as a leader, how to read and communicate with hiring a team, and what are things that we should be looking for. But what I hear you say, if I am on an interview and I have a strong preference towards something, and if I now have my post-it note, I'm going to follow your advice. Like just my preference is not an indication of somebody's ability to succeed.

Jasmine Star 00:48:00  So if then I know that, what can I look for if not their nonverbal behavior when 99.9%. And I'm not trying to argue a case for me, I'm just like, help me. Help me see something that I can't see. Help me.

Jasmine Star 00:48:11  Get better.

Blake Eastman 00:48:12  I mean, this is very preference wise, but like when my. So first of all, everybody like, tries to look for signs of like, what are the nonverbal signs of trust. Like what? Like there are nonverbal signs that are associated with the perception of a trustworthy face, for sure. Like, you know, if all of a sudden. Like, you could take a giant, put a giant scar on someone's face, and it probably decreases the marker of trust, even though they might be the most trustworthy person in the world at the end of the day. Trust is a byproduct of somebody doing something, and then they saying they're going to do something, they do it, and you start to trust them. Right. So I think most interviews are not really associated with trust or more so like can I work with this person.

Blake Eastman 00:48:51  Like do I enjoy spending time with this person. Like is this is this person capable and confident of what they're going to do? And it depends on what's going on. So for example, if I'm hiring a designer, I might have them. I might pull up a design and tell me, like, what do you think's wrong with this and why? To see if we're on the same page with the problem, they might call out all the same problems. If I'm in the if I'm in a conversation with us, somebody's going to run like, sales calls. Oh, they better be quick on their feet. They better be able to answer. They'll be able to be like, I'm looking for different measures. So, like, I really think you need to write down like what does this role require? What am I looking for in the person in this role. And then you literally they meet all these things. Check check check check check check.

Jasmine Star 00:49:30  That's good.

Blake Eastman 00:49:30  But like most people that I don't trust that person.

Blake Eastman 00:49:33  It's like you never even you don't even know him. Like, how do you really? That's your own stuff? Probably.

Jasmine Star 00:49:38  Now, if they just flat out.

Blake Eastman 00:49:39  Lie and then it's understandable. And you could do some more Machiavellian things. Like you could like, lie like, oh, like I'm just designs that. I was like, oh, have you heard of that? Like Figma extension, like Lilo that like reformat all the comps? Yeah. No, it's really good, I like it. I just made that up. There's no such thing. Just to see if they, like, latch on to certain things. Like you could do stuff like that, but just, you know, and I really believe that, like if you go into, like ChatGPT and write out, like give me like a simple hiring process, like it's still probably at like pretty decent level if you follow it. Right, it's going to be it's not gonna pick up on the nuance of this. But a lot of entrepreneurs, especially in your type of audience, like you're not running like series.

Jasmine Star 00:50:26  Backed.

Blake Eastman 00:50:26  $100 billion bill. You're automating for your life. For your lifestyle, you're going to interact with these people more like. So it's really important that you I like this person a little bit. Like likability is not important in a lot of areas, but I do think it is at these sizes of business because you're going to spend your time with these people, you're going to interact with these people. It's important.

Jasmine Star 00:50:45  So I'm going to tell you very quickly, about seven minutes ago, I maybe two minutes ago when you had said, when it comes to that role, what are the things that actually truly matter? And in both of these situations that I had given in regards to hiring for UI, and then another person that we had hired to be a product manager was so distinctly I didn't indicate and create a hierarchy of what was most important for them to do what it is they did, and it had zero to do with personality, even if they were my direct report. And it's like I felt like I got my fangs and I sunk my teeth directly into that.

Jasmine Star 00:51:17  And I'm like, I have such a clear idea now of how I need to show up because it was a me thing.

Jasmine Star 00:51:21  And also, do I.

Jasmine Star 00:51:22  Send you my.

Jasmine Star 00:51:22  Therapy buddy?

Blake Eastman 00:51:23  It also can people deal with you? That's a lot of other stuff. Like can people deal with whoever, whatever it is that you are, whether it's your quiet and more reserved or your non-stop talking like some people just can't. Like we had an intern once from Columbia back in the day, and I like in the middle of the I was like, what the heck is that? I say that and she's like, oh, she went like that. I was like, do you have a problem with cursing? And she's like, oh yeah. Like I, I'm like, it's not gonna work. I'm like, I curse non-stop. And I said, for myself, for you, like, I'm sorry. So like, I love to have you here, but if you're going to really be that viscerally offended by me cursing, you can hate working here.

Blake Eastman 00:52:03  And it's just quick to say things like, that's that's the way you build the feedback loops. Like that's the whole thing. Like everybody wants these like nonverbal, like little the nonverbal stuff. It's so much more deeper and complex than people ever really think. So the most thing you want to do is your own perception. Like, where are you projecting your thoughts, your wishes, your demands onto other people? And then that's sabotaging your business. And I really think one of the best ways to do that is like video. Like, what do you look like on video?

Jasmine Star 00:52:31  I actually love when people make me uncomfortable with how I need to get better. So coming off that all hands meeting and I left a lot of space at the end for Q&A, and I told myself, because you know how I like chess out what's going to happen? I knew that it was going to be quiet, like, I'm a bull in a China shop, right? Like I speak fast, I cast a big vision.

Jasmine Star 00:52:50  I made everybody excited. And I also probably know I made people uncomfortable. And so I told myself, you're going to sit in silence for as long as it takes. And somebody broke the barrier. She always does. She's like, she's just phenomenal. And then another patch of silence. And then the second person to ask a question had asked a question, and I answered it exactly how I meant to answer it. And when I asked Arco, oh, I was like, hey, give me some feedback on that call. It was kind of like, I didn't know how to read it. I think people said they were excited, but then the small part of me is like, well, they said they were excited, but were they really excited? So then I go down to the vortex. And so she's a straight shooter. That's our relationship. You tell me exactly how it is. Like no chaser. And she had said she's like, I think that everybody got what you put down.

Jasmine Star 00:53:35  She's like, but when you had answered X and you just said that answer, you said your answer, and I was I immediately took it and I processed it. And then I said, yes, but I make no apologies because I told everybody that our cultural norm is radical candor. So I'm going to say what I'm going to mean to say. And you know that I love you and I love you, and I'm gonna be playing at a different level. So are you are you at this level? Because if you're not at that level, I'm cool, but I'm going to say what I'm going to say. And I think that the 2024 version of me would have been like, oh, I think I need to send like a follow up and be like, hey, just want to make sure that you're seen and heard. But I'm like, I actually make no apologies for what I said or how I said it, because that's going to be what's going to be required from me. But I don't know if that's the.

Jasmine Star 00:54:16  Well, yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:54:17  There's. So two things. One, that question thing.

Jasmine Star 00:54:21  Yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:54:22  For those of you who do webinars and a bunch of other things if that comes up, plants the questions. So you should have had one person ask a question that would open up the space.

Jasmine Star 00:54:33  Oh that's good. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Have them do it. Yes, yes.

Blake Eastman 00:54:36  Okay, good. That that's really helpful. But the second thing is like.

Jasmine Star 00:54:40  And hold on, as a point of clarity, what Blake was trying to say is when you anticipate that there might be a blank spot and nobody's asking questions, he's saying that the first person to break the barrier is is the person who breaks the barrier. But so many times people don't want to break the barriers. What he's saying is plant the barrier breaker, okay?

Blake Eastman 00:54:54  Also, if you're running group programs like community programs, same thing.

Jasmine Star 00:54:57  Oh, good.

Blake Eastman 00:54:58  So like have one the first post like introduce yourself. Yes.

Blake Eastman 00:55:01  That should be plant. Yes. Because it'll set the norm for what is acceptable for everybody else. So that's the standard thing. But also okay so radical candor right. Yeah. Book. And everybody has definitions of what that actually means.

Jasmine Star 00:55:15  It.

Blake Eastman 00:55:16  Is very, very, very difficult for people to encapsulate the principle of radical candor. So it's your preference. It's what you like. But it's hard for some certain people.

Jasmine Star 00:55:29  I know that like view you.

Blake Eastman 00:55:30  And also you have to understand on the hierarchy, it is like the jazz. You're like.

Jasmine Star 00:55:34  Up there.

Blake Eastman 00:55:35  So they have they might have a little bit of stuff like, oh my God. I mean it happened with you on that podcast on that thing I did. So basically you were.

Jasmine Star 00:55:44  Like, what thing?

Blake Eastman 00:55:45  You were so nice on the on the Gary Vaynerchuk thing. Oh yeah. You're so nice. You're like, you're like, I'm trying to ask for more of what I'm like in life.

Jasmine Star 00:55:52  Oh my gosh, are we really going to go here? Everybody know.

Jasmine Star 00:55:55  Oh my.

Jasmine Star 00:55:55  God. Oh my God. He's going here, he's going here, he's going here. Oh he will set the scene, set.

Jasmine Star 00:55:59  The scene, set the.

Blake Eastman 00:56:00  Scene. So I finished the work, I finished this webinar.

Jasmine Star 00:56:02  And my mind is blown.

Blake Eastman 00:56:03  And you're like, and you're like, just a quick question. And you're like, I'm trying to ask for more of what I want in life. And will you come on my podcast? And I was like, yeah, of course. Right. And then I just forget about it. And then I go to like, Jasmine Starbucks and I'm like, what the hell?

Jasmine Star 00:56:19  This thing is.

Blake Eastman 00:56:20  Huge. And then, like, we have tons of mutual friends and all these people. And I was like, why would you like that? But it actually really did. That was like an endearing quality of you, I thought. It wasn't like, listen, Blake, I have this, like, top podcast will really help you.

Blake Eastman 00:56:35  I it instantly make me like you because I don't like that version of, you know, like.

Jasmine Star 00:56:41  Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:56:42  I can like, boost your like, calm down. Right. Like it's that kind of thing. But it was such an interesting sort of dynamic. But that's what I mean. Like, you communicated in a way that was like sort of my preference for like I was like, oh, that's humble, that's cool. Like, I love that. I'd be glad to do it even if it was five followers. Right? Like but I thought that was interesting. Now, with the back to the radical candor thing, it's like you somehow in that social construct, it wasn't radical. It was like you were you weren't aggressive. So basically you're going to be so much more.

Jasmine Star 00:57:14  No, but radical candor is not aggression.

Jasmine Star 00:57:16  No it's not.

Jasmine Star 00:57:16  It's just saying what you say.

Blake Eastman 00:57:17  But I think this is a theory. I think it's saying what you say, but saying what you say, it's impossible to do that.

Blake Eastman 00:57:24  It's always saying what you say. And then the tone, the energy. It amplifies what you're saying. Oh my God. So, like, I can say, like I can say like, you know, that was a great podcast or I can say like, that was a great podcast or like, that was a great podcast. It completely I said the same exact words. It completely changed how it's going to be perceived. So it's likely to happen is when when you're with your team and you own a company, you're probably going to feel the most safe. The highest level of authority. The highest level of all the things that you would normally feel in other days. So that radical candor might have a little edge to it. It might be like, you know, this is me, this is what's going on. And you got to understand that some very effective, high performing people. They they can't deal with that. You're also extremely quick. And some people that are they just they might be flooded with like cortisol and they're like and it's they don't know how to like respond immediately to that.

Jasmine Star 00:58:20  Blake freaking Eastman.

Jasmine Star 00:58:21  Okay, so I'm gonna tell you what.

Blake Eastman 00:58:23  It's a rabbit hole. You know.

Jasmine Star 00:58:23  We're gonna do.

Jasmine Star 00:58:24  Yeah, I'm clipping that part.

Jasmine Star 00:58:26  Okay, of the podcast.

Jasmine Star 00:58:27  And I am starting a team meeting. I have team members here on this reporting day, and I'm casually, not so casually looking over at them, and I listen. I have enough self-awareness to know that. Like, when somebody's like, girl, you're drunk at the bar. I'm drunk at the.

Jasmine Star 00:58:41  Bar, right? Right.

Jasmine Star 00:58:41  So I'm going to clip this and my word is I will show the clip to the team. And then when you say, that was a great podcast, that was a great podcast. That was a great podcast. And when I hear Blake, because I'm so linear, he thought it was great.

Jasmine Star 00:58:55  All right.

Jasmine Star 00:58:55  And so when I say you're doing a great job, great job, I have to under and it takes so much energy for me to like who am I dealing with? Hey, look at me.

Jasmine Star 00:59:05  Yeah, look at me.

Jasmine Star 00:59:06  You're doing Phenomenal. I can't wait.

Blake Eastman 00:59:09  That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought so. We have an inventory for this. It's called a contextual and literal spectrum. So what we found in teams is fascinating. What we found in teams is like, all right. So if I send you a text message, let's say you sent me a text message after Blake was so great having you blah blah, blah, blah.

Blake Eastman 00:59:25  Blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Blake Eastman 00:59:26  Blah blah. Let's get together with your wife and my husband for dinner sometime. Right. And I just went, okay. Would you see? Okay. As okay. He wants to go to dinner.

Jasmine Star 00:59:34  Yeah.

Blake Eastman 00:59:35  So you don't have anything about that?

Jasmine Star 00:59:36  I was like, well, this is what I would do. Yeah. Be like, let me know who to contact or if I should follow up.

Jasmine Star 00:59:42  Okay. I'm just.

Jasmine Star 00:59:43  Asking, like, how do I.

Jasmine Star 00:59:44  Play your game?

Blake Eastman 00:59:45  This was interesting.

Blake Eastman 00:59:45  So you're probably more on the literal side 100%. Right. So we have to understand is when you have literals and contextualize on the same team, the friction is.

Jasmine Star 00:59:54  Insane.

Jasmine Star 00:59:55  Is this like is this the like Myers-Briggs INTj like literal like thinkers and feelers? Dude, I'm telling you, I have a hard time with feelers. Feelers, and I we don't. We're like oil and.

Jasmine Star 01:00:03  Water, but I just think.

Blake Eastman 01:00:04  Of it as contextual and literal. literals. So literals are not adding more information to messages, contextualize or projecting their own meaning onto messages.

Jasmine Star 01:00:13  And I tell people on the team, I was like, when I tell you one thing, I mean that one thing, there's no other story. If you need more pieces. I'm an open book. Ask me. Ask me anything. I will tell you.

Blake Eastman 01:00:23  You have to like you have to like, drill that into people. Right? So I'm I'm contextual. So my team there's a rule. There was a rule for a while and now it's not you cannot give me a one word answer.

Blake Eastman 01:00:34  So if somebody on my team says yes I'll go. Are they mad at me?

Jasmine Star 01:00:39  Oh, like.

Blake Eastman 01:00:39  Here's the thing I said, is this thing I do like I'm always solving these puzzles. So I have to say no, it's yes emoji. It's yes thumbs up. And if there's and also like I have you're it's cool when you're a founder you could do your own stuff. So I have like this rule like if you're in my space and something's wrong, you have to tell me because I'm like a hawk. So like, if you had a fight with your husband or your wife, your partner or whatever, and you're on a meeting and you're just like this and you're not your normal self. You better text me or call me right before saying, hey, Blake, and I'll coach you through that. But I'm not. Do not come into the office like upset or bringing that back because I'll be like, oh my God. Like, what is it? Is it me? That was my own thing when I was.

Blake Eastman 01:01:20  Now I'm better. But back in the day, I used to take on my friend Mike Brown, had a quote. You have a responsibility to your people, not for them. I was always felt responsible for my team, their livelihood, their happiness or success or this. And I took it personally when they weren't living their best life. I thought it was my fault. So like the so for me, you know, somebody like just being literal. Oh, that's causing a lot of suffering because I worked you to death last week and I said, hey, did you enjoy your vacation? And you just said yes. I'm like, oh no, I really did. It was amazing. I was like, yeah, but when you said yes, I heard yes, it.

Jasmine Star 01:01:55  Wasn't long, it.

Blake Eastman 01:01:56  Wasn't long enough. And I don't like working for you. And so what you find is there's a lot of people out.

Jasmine Star 01:02:01  There I know.

Blake Eastman 01:02:02  That are.

Jasmine Star 01:02:03  Contextual.

Blake Eastman 01:02:04  And I, I mean, I guess.

Jasmine Star 01:02:06  But what I here's what they're doing the right thing. Here's what.

Blake Eastman 01:02:08  I'll say. Doing the right.

Jasmine Star 01:02:09  Thing I will tell people, as.

Blake Eastman 01:02:10  Long as you're telling people.

Jasmine Star 01:02:11  I will tell people. But what I take away as good isn't good. I must be extraordinary with this team, is that I have to say it again and again and again and again and again.

Blake Eastman 01:02:20  Well, you just, you know, the most effective way is just find out, like, I can send you some questions, find out who's who, and then you know who. That's what I do.

Jasmine Star 01:02:28  Know I know I.

Jasmine Star 01:02:29  Can tell I can tell you right now I don't have I don't have no questions. I can tell you right now, but make me better. I know there's people who I know, I know that there are. And I refuse to take the energy to say, like, how do I need to change? Because if I've told you and see, this is why it's like how I, how I have how I have a husband, the world should be happy.

Jasmine Star 01:02:48  I met him when I was 17 because there's no way somebody come up to me. I'm like, I am literally like, this is the organization and this is how I run. So I'm I'm not going to come to like, how do you best communicate? Because I will say, I'm an open book. I am a down for you. I'll throw myself in a freaking bus in front of you. Ask me what you need.

Blake Eastman 01:03:04  I think I think that's totally fine. You just have to know. I have no problem with that one. You just have to take responsibility. Might be causing some suffering for the people that don't adhere to that.

Jasmine Star 01:03:16  Okay, we're playing this part too. Yeah.

Blake Eastman 01:03:19  And then two, I mean, you're gonna clip this part, but, like, you gotta gut the people that aren't on.

Jasmine Star 01:03:26  Well, now I can't show that part because then they're going to be like, everyone's gonna be like, hey, Jasmine.

Jasmine Star 01:03:30  No.

Blake Eastman 01:03:30  But it's just honest to God truth.

Blake Eastman 01:03:32  Like. Like you're allowed to create the construct of a company, however the hell you want to create it. But it's like people are either on board or not, and when they're not on board and struggling. So I would say that it's much easier to say like instead of yes, you could ask. You could say, yes. Great work. Exclamation to the people that need it more. I feel like that's like a one second adjustment that has a profound impact. So you find the people who need a little bit more, and you give them just a little more. Not not crazy, not writing full paragraphs how you want to communicate. But yeah great job. Thank you so much. Done. And to the more literal.

Jasmine Star 01:04:04  Person I think it's fair. Yes. Very fair.

Blake Eastman 01:04:05  It's a micro adjustment I would say.

Jasmine Star 01:04:06  But I am so literal that I actually appreciate when people don't say yes. They'll just in slack, put a little checkmark like, I'm just like, you saw it. Cool.

Jasmine Star 01:04:14  I don't need another notification. That's how I get it. I'm very extreme, but what I hear and I actively take away is adding two more words takes two seconds, and it can really change the dynamic of somebody who needs it.

Jasmine Star 01:04:25  Yeah.

Blake Eastman 01:04:25  So the whole joke, the reason why I'm laughing is I had a CTO once that was Russian guy, and he was like, I don't know what like in a Russian accent. He's like, I don't know why I need to put emoji in it. Like I said, yes. Yes means yes. So listen, but listen how.

Jasmine Star 01:04:39  You behave, brother.

Blake Eastman 01:04:40  So I'm working with him and I put, we put in like an auto key, a hotkey that every time he wrote like I think it was. Yes. Yep. Okay. It automatically put thumbs up. And when I was back six weeks later, people were like, he's so different.

Blake Eastman 01:04:57  And it's just because of those stupid thumbs up.

Blake Eastman 01:05:00  Like that's the.

Blake Eastman 01:05:01  Little things they make. They make a big impact for people.

Jasmine Star 01:05:03  I hear you.

Blake Eastman 01:05:04  So it's sometimes important to sort of do it. And that's the aspect of being dynamic.

Jasmine Star 01:05:08  Thank you. Yeah.

Jasmine Star 01:05:09  Tell me you're not a trained podcast professional. Would you end. Well, we.

Jasmine Star 01:05:12  Began that call.

Jasmine Star 01:05:14  Back. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for watching and listening to the Jasmine Star Show. I hope that you liked this podcast half as much as I did. You can find Blake at Blake Underscore Eastman on Instagram. Please send him a DM. Just get to know him. He is a powerful human being and there's so many like, courses and seminars and all of these other things. How do people go deeper with you outside of Instagram? They want to know more about you. Where do they go?

Jasmine Star 01:05:40  My newsletter.

Blake Eastman 01:05:41  Non verbal group slash newsletter.

Jasmine Star 01:05:43  Non every.

Blake Eastman 01:05:44  Monday.

Jasmine Star 01:05:44  Non-verbal group.com/newsletter. We'll also link it in the show notes. Thank you for watching and listening to The Jasmine Star Show. And thank you.

Jasmine Star 01:05:53  Thank you for giving to us.