The Jasmine Star Show

Turning Pain into Purpose with Cassey Ho

• Jasmine Star

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When I first saw Cassey Ho’s YouTube videos, her energy and authenticity instantly stood out. So when she joined the podcast, I knew we were going deeper than just workouts.

In this episode, Cassey shares the raw truth behind online harassment, the YouTube policy change it sparked, and how her sensitivity became a powerful strength in business and life.

Cassey and I talked about:

  • 🔥 What it’s like to feel everything so deeply—and how it shapes decision-making as a CEO
  • 💔 How she weathered a massive wave of online hate (yes, it involved bananas…)
  • 🧠 The intersection of logic and emotion—and why both are needed to build something meaningful
  • ✨ Why vulnerability is not a liability but a secret weapon
  • 🧵 The “cloud hoodie” as the entrepreneur uniform (and why comfort + confidence is a vibe)

Cassey shows us that being emotional isn’t weakness—it’s wisdom. Her story is a reminder that deep feelings and big hearts can drive powerful leadership and creativity.

If you’ve ever wondered if you’re too much or questioned your worth, this episode is for you.

There’s no one right path to success—and this convo celebrates them all.

Wherever you are in your journey, you’re not alone. Press play and feel seen, heard, and supported. 💕

Click >>PLAY<< to hear all of this and:

[01:30] Why Cassey’s emotional sensitivity is actually her entrepreneurial strength

[21:55] The moment Cassey spoke up publicly at YouTube’s Creator Summit (and why it changed policy)

[23:19] How Cassey handled online harassment and turned it into purpose-driven change

[24:13] The aftermath of confronting hate: how Cassey’s bravery led to a safer platform

[59:10] Jasmine reflects on Cassey's transparency and emotional leadership as an inspiration for other entrepreneurs

Listen to Related Episodes:

Connect With Cassey Ho:

Cassey Ho is a trailblazing entrepreneur, fitness instructor, and designer best known as the founder of Blogilates, one of the most popular female fitness channels on YouTube. She also founded Popflex Active, a fashion-forward athleisure brand focused on empowering women to feel strong, confident, and comfortable in their skin. With over 15 million social media followers and multiple viral moments (some joyful, some challenging), Cassey is redefining what it means to lead with heart in the online world.

📧 Join my Newsletter for a weekly cocktail of insider business strategy, personal reflections, and the journey of being a thought leader. 📧

For full show notes, visit jasminestar.com/podcast/episode567

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Jasmine Star 00:00:00  Welcome to the Jasmine Star show, where today I just feel particularly honored and blessed because for the first time ever on this show, I'm going to be sitting with a college alum, a phenomenal entrepreneur, somebody who has blown my mind again and again with her multiple iterations and dare I say it, I'm going to start here. What we have seen so much of this person do is climb and ascend and overcome. And what we don't often hear too much is the path that took her to every ascension. Because where there is every ascension, there is also the climb up. And where are you climbing up from a valley that a lot of entrepreneurs don't talk about. And all of the research that I did in preparation of this conversation, I'm really excited because I have hardly ever heard somebody talk so much about the emotional component of being a wildly successful entrepreneur. I can't wait for her to blow your mind. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Jasmine Star Show and Cassey Ho. Hi. I'm so happy you're here.

Jasmine Star 00:00:54  Okay. I am too. I thought I was going to start in a different place, but right before we had turned on the cameras, you're like, oh, I was at YouTube HQ and I said, okay, no, no, no, let's just start there. Because when you get into your origin story, we're gonna get into all of that. But I want to just kasey to show up as Kasey. So you're here YouTube HQ and what what was going on? It was YouTube's 20th birthday party, and.

Cassey Ho 00:01:15  So they invited some OG YouTubers to come over, be on a panel with Neil Mohan, the CEO of YouTube, and we talked about our journeys. And, you know, it was what we what I was trying to get to was I am always so critical of myself, especially in speaking engagements and where I was going. Before you turn on the camera was that you are so good on stage. Like the way you speak is so succinct, concise, and you, like, wrap it all up in a nice little bow with like power punch at the end.

Cassey Ho 00:01:45  I, like you were such the inspiration.

Jasmine Star 00:01:48  Well, okay. And then so what we should have said, okay, this goes back a little bit all over the place is well and this feels good. It feels like like a real conversation and less of an interview. So Cassie and I met in person. We'd gone to the same school. Shout out to Whittier College. Yeah, we're the fiercest poets. Yeah. So we met last year in Miami, where she was hosting a small business challenge for Ink magazine and the UPS store, and I was a mentor, so I was able to work with a mentee. We went to the finals, and Cassie was there and she was the host, and we had connected. Now, here's the thing. I don't know if I told you, but I actually learned about your story from the Rock Whittier College magazine. Yeah.

Cassey Ho 00:02:24  Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:02:24  So Whittier College has this, like, quarterly magazine that they send about like, alum, and they had featured Cassie.

Jasmine Star 00:02:29  And we're going to get to why they were featuring her in a second because people are like, is this just like a girlfriend? It might be. But here's the thing. Here's the deal. I love being able to show a different side of an entrepreneur, because what people, a lot of people see is mega successful, mega powerhouse and dare I say like mega perfection. And I know that there's a lot that goes behind the scenes. So what I read is I'm flipping through this magazine is about this business owner who started off as a Pilates instructor, and we're going to get to that story in a second. So I'm going through her story. And so then it's crazy that I walk into the room and I see Cassie. And when you're on stage and this is not being nice, because if everyone watches and listens to the show, I'm not nice. I'm just honest. Okay. The way that you stood on that stage and the way that you navigated, I think that you set us up.

Jasmine Star 00:03:12  Us mentors, the ability to shine. And so I just and I'm not here again. I'm not being nice. So I would just encourage you like never tell yourself a story because you completely, completely own it. So what happened at YouTube? Spill the tea.

Cassey Ho 00:03:23  Well, before I get there. Okay. Can I just say thank you so much for your truth and, like, I'm glad it was positive. Like, every time, after any type of speaking engagement, I'll ask Sam. My husband grade me from A to F on how that was because I need to stay real and I need to know how I can always do better. So that's just like how I live my life.

Jasmine Star 00:03:42  What was his.

Cassey Ho 00:03:42  Feedback? He thought I was really good at this last one. I made like one weird like grammatical slip, which I like. It's still in my head, but I think I was just like slipping my tongue at that moment. But overall I think it was really good actually. Yeah, I felt the same as him.

Cassey Ho 00:03:56  So that's always good. Great. Yeah. Yeah. but yeah. Anyway, it was YouTube's 20th birthday party. I've been on YouTube for 15 years, so I was one of the OG YouTubers. And the thing is, the climate back then, I wouldn't even say it's a climate.

Jasmine Star 00:04:10  It was it was a climate. It was a climate. Yeah, that's true.

Cassey Ho 00:04:13  It was different. People didn't start to get famous, to gain followers, to make money. You just started because you wanted to put up a random video on YouTube and connect with people. And the landscape has truly changed. So it was really cool to talk about how different the landscape was back then for creators versus what it is now.

Jasmine Star 00:04:31  Cool. And so just as a point of clarity, before we get into her origin story, we're talking a lot about YouTube, and I actually haven't put any context around who Cassie is. She's founder and CEO of Blog Ladies and Pop Flex and a strong, wildly popular personal brand. You might be very familiar with her on YouTube with billions of views, billions of views.

Jasmine Star 00:04:55  How I saw from a distance that pivot from not pivot, the addition to how you kind of transcend it, and what you started doing on TikTok really early on. And we're going to get into all of that. But this is an entrepreneurial journey. And like the biggest takeaway for me is being able to show the level of grit and wherewithal it takes to build the empire that you're building. So we're talking about YouTube. That was a great place to start. Maybe we start a little bit there around that YouTube journey. And then what set off at your first product?

Cassey Ho 00:05:23  Okay, so YouTube started in 2009. It was one Pilates video that was for my students at 24 Hour Fitness in Santa Fe Springs, like near Whittier. Yeah, it was like for 40 people. And I was graduating and moving to the East Coast for my first job, my first corporate job, and nobody else was teaching that format at the time, which was Pilates to pop music. I called it pop Pilates. And so I filmed a ten minute video because that was the upload limit at YouTube at the time, and I put it up for 40 people.

Cassey Ho 00:05:54  And the next time I looked at that video, there were thousands of views and hundreds of comments. And it wasn't just the 40 people. And then organically, this community grew online of women who wanted to get stronger in their own bedrooms at home, who maybe weren't confident enough to go to the gym. And that was how blogging began. Now, in terms of product, there's a lot of different things, as you know, with an entrepreneurial journey, it's like so winding. But like, if I could pick one point where things really changed. It was about two years into making YouTube videos, probably around 2011, and it was on Facebook, and people were like, hey, Cassie, we want a shirt that says Blogger ladies. And I was like, why you want a shirt with my screen name on it? That's really weird because at the time, I just randomly chose that word because I blogged and I did Pilates like that. That was the extent of the thought into that brand, right? Which is crazy that it's a brand now.

Cassey Ho 00:06:52  And I was like, okay, so we had a little T-shirt contest with like, you know, a little art contest. I ended up buying these shirts from forever 21 RIP. By the way, I know, right? It was an era. It was an era. And then, you know, hired a local screen printer who printed the image on it and put it up on Facebook, and it sold out within minutes. And I was like, wait.

Jasmine Star 00:07:13  What? How many.

Cassey Ho 00:07:14  Opening? Oh, I don't think that. Maybe like 30 or 40 or something, but like I was like small back then. And then that began like the merchandise and of what I was doing along with the fitness videos.

Jasmine Star 00:07:28  Okay. So I'm going to pause here. I'm going to pause because I like to repeat it back just so that I'm understanding the arc and the narrative. And so here you are. You recorded a video. Now, can I fill in a couple gaps? Yeah. Okay. So imagine your dad says when you're in college, you will either be a doctor, a lawyer, or a failure.

Jasmine Star 00:07:46  So, Cassie followed the good, strong path because she's the daughter of an immigrant, Chinese and Vietnamese, and she's going to do her family right. So you major in biology. You graduate with honors? Yep. And then you get a job on the East Coast? Yep. As a buyer.

Cassey Ho 00:08:03  Training to be a buyer. I started out as an allocation analyst. Let me tell you, I didn't even make it to buyer because I sucked at my job so bad.

Jasmine Star 00:08:11  Well, you did your job because you want. You knew that something else was calling.

Cassey Ho 00:08:14  Yeah. And so it was a natural talent.

Jasmine Star 00:08:16  And in that time, you're still creating videos? Yep. And you know that there is a calling back to you. And so you notice that your audience is coming to you with a specific ask something that doesn't cross your mind. You would never think, let me make a t shirt with my screen name. So you just decide to make a small test. And this test yielded a lot of community involvement because they're voting on t shirts.

Jasmine Star 00:08:36  They're voting on designs. And then you send this out, and there's a lot of people who are watching right now and be like, that sounds like something I could do. Like I could maybe start creating content. Maybe I could put something small. I love that you had said I didn't know it was 30 or 40 shirts. I think that's so intriguing. So then what happens from those shirts into next steps?

Cassey Ho 00:08:56  Are the shirts into the next steps? I mean, after the shirts, there were slogans. If you remember, at the time, in the 20 1213 era, it was like train insane to remain the same, train like a beast, look like a beauty. And so I started making like tons of different tank tops. And I was I was doing all the graphic design and everything. Then it went on yoga mats, then it went on water bottles. And I remember there was this moment again. I'm like jumping all over the place. But there was a moment when I was selling 30,000 of this one water bottle with train and saying remain the same on it, with time stamps on the side so you could stay hydrated with like the timing.

Cassey Ho 00:09:32  Oh, that's cute the day. Yeah, I mean, it just like people just wanted a piece of the journey. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:09:39  So you leave Boston, you come back to California, and if I know a part of the story is that you're keeping the 30,000 water bottles or that inventory in your parents garage.

Cassey Ho 00:09:49  Yes.

Jasmine Star 00:09:49  Where are you living?

Cassey Ho 00:09:50  Let's see. I think I actually moved back into my childhood home and I felt so lost. Oh my God. My parents were like, when are you going back to school? Like, what are you doing with your life? It was all of that.

Jasmine Star 00:10:05  The inventory. Right?

Cassey Ho 00:10:06  Yeah, but it was like, still like, what are you doing? But anyway, they were so wonderful. And letting me not only take over the garage, but then the living room and then the family room and then the kitchen, and there were like, literally boxes or I feel like ten, 15ft, like up in the air.

Cassey Ho 00:10:23  It was like this was not happening anymore. So what ended up happening is I got a warehouse and we started shipping from there. And just honestly just figuring everything out.

Jasmine Star 00:10:32  Now, at this point, are you believing I'm building a business? Take me back to that time and you're getting a warehouse. Yeah. And do you at this time, are you saying I'm an entrepreneur? I am choosing entrepreneurship or what's going on.

Cassey Ho 00:10:43  So okay, I'm going to take you back even more because my childhood dream was to be a fashion designer. That's what I've always wanted. And some people ask me like, well, how did you know? Like, I just know it's in my blood. It's in my bones, it's in my heart. I would walk around with a sketchbook, always sketching dresses. Why? I don't know it. Just like I feel like this is what I was put on earth to do. And I would make my own Halloween costumes, dance costume, my friends prom dresses like it was in me.

Cassey Ho 00:11:10  And so during this time I was building the YouTube channel. It was just the thing that was happening, and it was fun while I was trying to figure out, you know, how do I get back to that original dream? Because I'm never going to let go of that. But what's amazing is that building that community eventually did lead me back into my childhood dream. Now, in this moment, you're saying like 20 1314, I was definitely more YouTuber than I was a designer because.

Jasmine Star 00:11:39  It was like.

Cassey Ho 00:11:40  Graphic design in the background. This wasn't it was fine and it was fun, but I didn't talk about it. And for the most part, I'm just going to like, say, easy in quotes. It was easy because it was screen printing on shirts. But none of this had to do with actual fashion design, actual artistry and craftsmanship. And that's like what I really, really wanted.

Jasmine Star 00:12:00  This was the first time I actually heard that distinction, and I love it. So at the time, if I heard you correctly at the time, you're a YouTuber with a product line.

Jasmine Star 00:12:07  Yeah. And the Cassie today is a fashion designer. Yes. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Cassey Ho 00:12:14  Yeah, it actually took a while to change that narrative to. And we could talk about that, I'm sure.

Jasmine Star 00:12:20  Okay. So you have a warehouse now? Yeah. You are a YouTuber. You're building at this massive. And I wouldn't even say an art because there's a difference between an audience and a community. Yeah. And at that time, so distinctly community people were supporting each other. They were supporting you. You're growing. And one of the things that became like, pretty, pretty clear in that journey. Especially what was going on with YouTube is that there was a lot of this is a new platform in a new way. So people are warm and fuzzy in the beginning and then kind of sometimes community kind of factions. And so talk to me about negativity online. When does this start happening? And do you think it's a result of how successful you had become?

Cassey Ho 00:12:59  Okay. Negativity began right away, and I think it's the result of being in the fitness industry.

Cassey Ho 00:13:06  And I'm going to get to how it feels not being in it anymore at the end of the story. But, you know, the first time I put up that ten minute video for 40 people, I was a Pilates instructor instructing, that is it. I did not mean to become a model, a role model like any of that. But one of my first negative comments, of course, was about my body. Why are you so fat? Why don't you have abs? Why is your butt so flat? Like all these things? I. I was like, wait, I did what? Like I'm an instructor. You know, you don't hear these things in real life and around, you know, this was like the first time people are really putting themselves online connecting. And then there's like randos behind screen names, like saying mean stuff. And so it started pretty immediately. Not bad. Okay. Not not a lot. But as you know, with negative comments, it hits the soul and it hurts you, especially when it hits an insecurity.

Cassey Ho 00:14:00  Because I grew up chubby and I've always been hyper aware of my looks and my weight, unfortunately. Okay, so I think as black ladies grew, of course the positivity is always overwhelming. And like I said, it's the mean ones that really stick out to me. And as Baghdadi's got more and more popular, more people would come for me. And it literally was body shaming. And it was interesting because around this like 2015 ish time, it was also the rise of the body positivity movement, because I think a lot of people, especially women, were experiencing this body shaming online. And so what ended up happening was one I would I all I, I always cry, I cry because it hurts and it hurts me. The parts of me that feel very weak and I'm still working on, you know. But anyway, I remember that one way for me to battle through it was taking these negative comments and making a video about it, like actually turning the negativity into something positive. And so I took those comments, you know, why don't you have abs like, all this kind of stuff? And I literally photoshopped myself on video to look like what they wanted me to look like.

Jasmine Star 00:15:14  Okay. And so hold on. Yeah. There's like a comment like, why don't you have a bigger butt? So then you photoshopped a bigger butt. Why don't you have a smaller abs? And then and all of it is one video. One video? Yes. Yeah.

Cassey Ho 00:15:23  And it was really difficult to pull this one off because we were editing frame by frame and because, like, there's 30 frames per second. So for every second we would be pushing things like it was hard. It was hard on the back end. But anyway, that video not only was therapy for myself, but ended up becoming one of my hugest viral hits. It was featured on Good Morning America and did like, did the whole like, news circuit. I did not expect that and got so many messages from people saying, I shared this with my daughter and with my wife, like from men to like who like, didn't understand that women were going through this and I called it the perfect body. And it still remains one of my favorite videos of all time.

Cassey Ho 00:16:06  So yeah, negative comments. They just increase as you get bigger. That is what happens. You're just on a bigger stage and there's more people to critique you because I don't know, but maybe it's fun for them, I don't know.

Jasmine Star 00:16:19  I think you still do shades of it when you launch a design like this is probably maybe like 6 or 7 months ago when you had launched a pair of, like, hiking pants. Yeah. And you got like, negative comments. Yeah. And then you posted the negative comments, and then you actually made style adjustments based on like the hate. And to me, I thought, this isn't like a clapback. It's simply thank you for the user feedback. We're going to create something that's going to blow your dang mind. And the response to it is so powerful it comes across as very strong. But does it still hurt in the same capacity or.

Cassey Ho 00:16:51  I don't think anything hurts as much as attacking your someone. Someone attacks my body. now my designs are also my baby, so it hurts still because it hurts my creativity and my vision and my work ethic.

Cassey Ho 00:17:04  But it will never hurt as much as someone attacking my body.

Jasmine Star 00:17:08  So this is actually a cool loopback. So you were celebrating the 20 year anniversary of YouTube, but there was also, I think it was VidCon, or there was some sort of video conference where there was representatives of YouTube where you stood up to advocate for yourself. Can you share that story? And there was one where you were crying and then a friend had to jump in.

Cassey Ho 00:17:27  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you did your research, girl.

Jasmine Star 00:17:30  I went deep, I went deep because I'm so. Because this is. This is the thing, Cassie. It's like what people see is Taylor Swift wearing your clothing. What they see is the line drop at target, and what they see is your actual, like, weights in. You can buy like, what they see is this really beautiful, self-assured woman and a happy marriage and an adorable dog traveling the world. And there was so much behind the scenes. And that's what I want to say, because sometimes as entrepreneurs, we sit in the dark dungeon of ourselves and being like other people do that.

Jasmine Star 00:18:00  And I'm like, no, we're going to talk about this beautiful, amazing, powerful woman who's gone through so much, so you can't get to walk the aisles at target until you've gone through, like, the perils of rising from the dust. Okay, so let's go back to that.

Cassey Ho 00:18:12  I'll take you back there. So this was around, I don't know, 2015, 16, 17 I can't remember anymore. But as blogs was getting really, really big on YouTube of course there. And look you can there is this same cycle that happens on any platform and there is like a drama period. Okay, so I would say around like 2015, 16, 17, whatever the drama period hit. And it's interesting.

Jasmine Star 00:18:38  For you or for everybody okay.

Cassey Ho 00:18:40  So for the entire the entire platform because you can see it happen. I remember when TikTok first started, the drama period happened quite quickly because everything was just quicker with TikTok, but it was the same thing. And yeah, I'll get into that later anyway.

Jasmine Star 00:18:54  Yes.

Cassey Ho 00:18:54  Oh yeah. So this particular channel really enjoyed making up stories about, I guess, famous or popular YouTubers, because what would happen is that anytime I or any YouTuber would put up a video, there would be suggested videos. So if someone's making a video about you and if it's also kind of like, oh, so-and-so dah dah dah dah, like you're gonna want to, the audience is going to want to click on it. So this person would make these videos get millions of views on them, and then she would just go on to the next person. On to the next person until she, like, finished them. Unfortunately, I was one of the victims and it was really bad.

Jasmine Star 00:19:33  What was she saying? Oh, it was ridiculous stuff.

Cassey Ho 00:19:36  She. So I'm not vegan and this person was vegan and nothing against vegans. I have many vegan friends. I love eating vegan. But this person. Okay, this person just made it her mission to take down anyone who wasn't by making up stories.

Cassey Ho 00:19:53  and I mean, I don't even know if I should.

Jasmine Star 00:19:55  Say on my podcast, like what.

Cassey Ho 00:19:57  Some of these titles were. I mean, it was it was really terrible and complete lies. And it ended up, like, confusing a lot of my audience. Like, I mean, I guess, like, should I just tell you so, like, you have an understanding.

Jasmine Star 00:20:11  Of like, no, no, no. Here's the thing. We just here's the thing. I don't need to shed more light on people who actually, thankfully, are not present anymore because hate never lasts. Yeah, and negativity never lasts. And so what I wanted to do was to contextualize how icky it got. But I trust you. Yeah, it was bad. And when there's market confusion, it has a direct impact outside of like, okay, people can say, oh, tough enough. Okay. So you get thick skin, you're putting yourself out there, fine. But if it has business impacts, that's a very different level.

Jasmine Star 00:20:39  So if people are confused and if people don't understand it was affecting your business.

Cassey Ho 00:20:43  Yeah. And I mean essentially it was like Cassie is fat because she's not vegan. Or Cassie does this to animals. Like it was just like all fake stuff. And yes, it did tarnish the brand. It tarnished me. It caused confusion and, you know, and it was all linked back into that antibody. It was the body shaming along with it was just so bad on the internet side. And then inside at the time there was toxicity on my team and we were so tiny. We were like 5 or 6 employees. But this was also like, I don't know, it was just really hard from the inside and outside. So I felt like I was crumbling as a leader, as an entrepreneur, as a YouTuber, as a CEO. Like, I felt like I couldn't do anything right and I almost quit. Like, I was like, I can't do this. But the thing is, I just wasn't surrounding myself with the right people at the time.

Cassey Ho 00:21:32  But yeah, I was like literally 30 days from being like, I am not meant for this. I should just stop all of it.

Jasmine Star 00:21:38  So yeah. Speaking of surrounding yourself around positive people, and I would like to go back to the team conversation because it seems like it was like this vortex of things that were causing you to get out of the current state and elevate into the next. But when you were at the conference, you tried talking about the negativity and the impact and then somebody stepped in.

Cassey Ho 00:21:55  Okay, so so it was the YouTube Creators Summit, and YouTube puts this on for their top tier creators every year. And I was lucky enough to be invited. And I remember the YouTube CEO was having a town hall. And so I stood up and I said, hey, this thing is happening right now. It's not just happening to me. It's happening to a lot of people in this room right now. And that person is being paid to make videos to tarnish all of our reputations. And it's all lies.

Cassey Ho 00:22:29  My voice was shaking so much because at this time, like I was being super harassed online through the lies and this person sent their people to like, just spam my Instagram. And at the time, there was no what do you call it when you can like block certain comment?

Jasmine Star 00:22:43  Yeah, moderation.

Cassey Ho 00:22:44  So like it was just insane. Just imagine. Do you remember when Kim K sent the snakes over to Taylor Swift's like, page? It was that. Except it wasn't a snake. It was a banana. And so, honestly, I'm like, I could not eat bananas for like five years after that. No, it was, like, psychologically damaging. Oh, yeah. No, I'm for real. So anyway, my friend actually had to stand up and, like, finish off what I was trying to say because I was, like, shaking and I was crying. And then other YouTubers stood up from, like, the, the gaming vertical and like, other people like, and it was like this was a thing that was happening.

Jasmine Star 00:23:19  Okay, so I'm gonna pause here for people who might not be, like, really familiar. So if you have AdSense on YouTube, you're getting paid for how many views that you get. So then these people, these like haters will go after mega accounts. They would slurp over any of like the outlying people who just want the dirty tea and negativity, and then they're making a lot of money on the coattails of somebody else on the back of lies. So it wasn't just happening to Cassie. And so what Cassie did is she spoke in front of her peers and said, this is wrong. And then other people after the first, it always takes one. Yeah, it takes one.

Cassey Ho 00:23:51  And then.

Jasmine Star 00:23:52  We.

Cassey Ho 00:23:52  All realized that this was a thing that was bigger than just like a singular attack. And, you know, I remember at this time it was just like so painful. And I kept asking myself, why? Why me? Like, why do I need to feel all this right now? And my that the answer to that question came after that summit.

Cassey Ho 00:24:13  Because because of this YouTube policy actually changed and they changed the, you know, the rules on harassment and things like that and how people can monetize online. And that channel ended up being demonetized, and that person ended up not making those videos anymore because it was all money based anyway. And so the harassment ended up stopping. I don't even know if this person is still online. If they are, whatever. I don't even see them. But I guess all of that was for an entire platform. Policy change.

Jasmine Star 00:24:44  And so around this time there's toxicity online and then there's toxicity within your team. And the reason why I bring this up is because the goal for me was to show, like for every ascension, there had to come like a tipping point in order for you to make decisions. And so you have a team of 5 or 6 at this time. Yeah. And what when you look back as you're and at this time, do you consider yourself an entrepreneur?

Cassey Ho 00:25:06  Yes, I would say because we had.

Jasmine Star 00:25:08  What is this.

Cassey Ho 00:25:09  Are let's see 2017.

Jasmine Star 00:25:12  Okay. Okay okay.

Cassey Ho 00:25:14  Like that. Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:25:14  So you're considering yourself? I went from YouTuber. Yeah, to entrepreneur. I have a team. Yeah. And then you realize the team is toxic. Yeah. And so when you look back at that, what did you not do to prevent that, that you've done now. Like what is the main difference. Like what was not happening at that time?

Cassey Ho 00:25:33  You know, I remember also at one of these YouTube summits, a very popular YouTuber that I respect and still respect. He had an interesting perspective on how to hire people. And he said, hire from your fan base. You don't have to talk about your mission. They just get it. And all of us were like, yeah, of course. And so one of my first like big hires was from the fan base and extremely talented individual. Unfortunately, I think what happens when you hire from the fan base is that they expect the online version of Cassie, the instructor version, who is bubbly and excited and happy all the time.

Cassey Ho 00:26:11  But business Kasey is pretty business like.

Jasmine Star 00:26:13  Like it's a very, very serious.

Cassey Ho 00:26:15  And so I think that created this weird dynamic where maybe they didn't expect the person that they expected and created, like this weird tension in the office where sometimes I would walk in and there'd be chatter and all of a sudden, boom, silence. And, you know, like something they were talking about something and that just created this weird atmosphere. Now that's just like one hypothesis I have on why that that part went wrong. But there was a whole nother thing about, you know, working with younger employees and, you know, expectations versus reality and, you know, people wanting to be promoted really fast when they're not ready. And it was just like all of these things that I had, honestly, I hadn't signed up for. You know, like I signed up to, you know, be a creative and design things and content, create but not manage people's feelings. Become a therapist. Like which I'm still like navigating to this day.

Cassey Ho 00:27:11  I'm much better now, but it was so difficult. It was really difficult.

Jasmine Star 00:27:15  So it's very common in the entrepreneurial journey to understand that the team that gets you to a certain spot will likely, most likely not be the team that gets you to the next spot as you ascend. So when you look back at that time, how long from the moment where you realize, okay, this is not the team and this is not a good situation for me.

Cassey Ho 00:27:33  I think it was like a couple.

Jasmine Star 00:27:36  Or.

Cassey Ho 00:27:36  A few years of really trying to make it work and make it better, and I think the hardest and most hurtful thing, especially for me because I'm extremely sensitive and empathetic and, you know, I want my team to also ascend with me and do better. But we also have to be so real and so honest with each other. And so if we can't get on the same page, it's just not going to work out. And eventually what ended up happening was the people who didn't feel like they wanted to be there, left.

Cassey Ho 00:28:04  And with that bad Apple energy.

Jasmine Star 00:28:08  Like.

Cassey Ho 00:28:08  Left all that toxicity.

Jasmine Star 00:28:10  And.

Cassey Ho 00:28:10  Then the right people came in place. And it was it was a really, really.

Jasmine Star 00:28:14  Did you shrink your team down or was it like 1 or 2 people left and you brought 1 or 2 people in? But it was.

Cassey Ho 00:28:18  Kind of like that. Yeah. So talk to.

Jasmine Star 00:28:20  Me based on what you learned from. Okay. Probably I'm assuming. Did you hire from your community again?

Cassey Ho 00:28:26  Let me think. No, I did not, I did not.

Jasmine Star 00:28:30  Yeah. So you're putting out an entirely different type of job description because you said, I'm going to need a different type of player to get the business to the next level.

Cassey Ho 00:28:37  Well, you know, what was the difference? The difference was working with contractors because you get a chance to date people. And I think this is what what is wrong with the hiring process right now? Why is it that we all work in this way, where we go on these blind dates together, you have, you know, 30 minutes to an hour to like, be like, yeah, this is going to work.

Cassey Ho 00:28:57  What? And then you offer a marriage proposal a W2.

Jasmine Star 00:29:01  Yeah.

Cassey Ho 00:29:01  Hope it works. And if it doesn't, you have to get divorced. Why can't we just literally date each other? And then if it works, then you get married.

Jasmine Star 00:29:08  That is 100%.

Cassey Ho 00:29:09  So that's what I do now. And that changed the game for us.

Jasmine Star 00:29:13  Amazing. So talk to me though about the logistics. So the story that I used to tell myself. But so far we've done it with our three most recent employees and I love it. So as a quick breakdown, what Cassie is recommending is let's say you're looking for a marketing manager. Okay, fine. And so you're going to say this person is going to work 40 hours a week. I'm going to W-2. I'm going to give them a 401 K, I'm going to get their insurance. And then all of a sudden this person doesn't work out. And it's so complicated to let go of a W-2 specifically in California anyway. And so what she's saying is let me hire a contractor and let me see what this scope of work do they deploy? Are they communicative? How do they work? Under pressure you get to AKA date them, right?

Cassey Ho 00:29:51  And they get to date you too.

Cassey Ho 00:29:52  Which is.

Jasmine Star 00:29:52  True.

Cassey Ho 00:29:53  That's really.

Jasmine Star 00:29:53  I think it's fair for.

Cassey Ho 00:29:54  Both sides. That's true. So healthy.

Jasmine Star 00:29:56  And so then after a certain amount of time, you're like, wow, this person is overdelivered. I like the way that they work. And then you extend the marriage, which is let's go full time, let's go. Let's go deep, let's build. And so sometimes the story is people who are really qualified and talented aren't going to take a contractor's position for like 15 or 20 hours a week.

Cassey Ho 00:30:13  For.

Jasmine Star 00:30:13  Sure. And so how do you have that?

Cassey Ho 00:30:15  And and you know what? Like this is so true. Recently we've had to take the leap. But sometimes sometimes these hard workers will work after hours after their normal job. Because I just need a taste. I need a taste of your work ethic, who you are. Do you fit with the, you know, the rest of the team? And if I if I feel like we have that taste and, you know, sometimes you do have to just take a risk for a really good person.

Jasmine Star 00:30:37  So you are you go from YouTuber as an identity and then you step into entrepreneur as an identity. And and to be clear, identities are not you. It's just in this phase, in this era, this is what's going on and your content continues to go viral. You are continuing to grow all social platforms. And at what point do you start stepping into I'm a designer now. You've always been a designer. When does the I when does the the identity on the inside start matching with on the outside.

Cassey Ho 00:31:06  You know, I think the inside and the outside truly became one harmonious thing when I started Pop Flex. Yeah, when I started to pop flex. Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:31:18  Talk about the distinction between pop flex and bloodline.

Cassey Ho 00:31:20  Okay. Yeah, yeah. This is important. Okay, okay. So Black Lady started out as my YouTube channel screen name. Okay. And for the most part, it was kind of my more merch like things. So the slogans on the shirts, the slogans on the yoga mats and things like that.

Cassey Ho 00:31:34  But the distinction with Pop Flex is pretty much I wanted my own Lululemon. Okay. I was wearing everyone's brand in my fitness videos and I was like, I want to wear my own brand. And that is also what led me back into that childhood dream of wanting to become a fashion designer. And so without any technical or educational training and fashion design, I was like, let's just do this. I'm going to figure it out because I love clothes. I love clothes so much. So in 2016, I started Pop Flex and it was my own activewear range and it did really well. It did really well in the beginning, but then it didn't because I didn't know anything about fit, especially when.

Jasmine Star 00:32:14  I did it. Okay, what's the talk to me about the difference? It did really well and then it didn't. Why did it do well? And then what did you discover?

Cassey Ho 00:32:21  So it did well because the community was super excited. They bought it. Now I began with standard sizes like Extra small through Extra Large, and my channel at the time was very much about, you know, inclusivity and body positivity.

Cassey Ho 00:32:35  And so it didn't make sense that I didn't have plus size, but I also didn't understand how to make plus size, again, without any technical design training. So after I launched my first two with standard range, I was working on plus in the background, and that was really difficult because I did not understand how the body changed measurement wise, calculation wise. And just like in reality To. I didn't know how to make a good fit. And so.

Jasmine Star 00:33:03  I have a.

Cassey Ho 00:33:03  Question.

Jasmine Star 00:33:03  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am like so stuck. Okay, okay. So you sketch and I know you sketch because still to this day you show your sketches as part of your content, which I absolutely love. Obsessed. Obsessed. So you're sketching, you know, what you want it to.

Cassey Ho 00:33:14  Look like.

Jasmine Star 00:33:15  And then what, you're like, okay, I need to take this design and make it before we're not even speaking of a plus size. You're like, yeah, this design, and now I need it.

Jasmine Star 00:33:22  And then so there's standard sizing and measurements for extra small through extra large.

Cassey Ho 00:33:26  Not really. No. That's the weird thing about women's clothing okay. Not really.

Jasmine Star 00:33:30  So then you go and then like you're taking it to a manufacturer or like one.

Cassey Ho 00:33:34  Yeah. So what you do is after I do the sketch, then we create a tech pack. And so a tech pack and.

Jasmine Star 00:33:40  You're just teaching yourself.

Cassey Ho 00:33:41  This? I'm teaching myself this also at the time I was working with like, this graduate from Adam, and she was kind of figuring it out. It was a her first job. Like we were all just like figuring it out and just learning by, like what the factory was like, hey, do you have this? Do you know this? And, like, honestly, just studying the garments that I already had at home, I have every brand in my closet because I was wearing everything like Lulu, Alo, Tiki. Like also Beyond yoga. Everything. You know, brands are still here today, and maybe not even here today.

Cassey Ho 00:34:07  And they also sent me a ton of stuff. And so there was a lot of things that I could work off of. And you're kind of just looking at those measurements. Now again, I'm a size small. So I understood like how small worked. But then there's something called grading. And with grading you calculate like how much of a percent increase between, you know, a small little weight up to medium, large, extra large three x. The thing is, it is not the same percent grade in different areas of the body. For example, you wouldn't grade a risk that differently between like a, you know, a small and a. Yeah, yeah. Versus like hips hips can grow, boobs can grow but risk not so much, ankles not so much. And so there's a lot of nuance to it that you don't know until you begin trying. So anyway, what I was saying is that I did not understand those things in our first plus drop. People are super excited about this is our third drop and things came back a little too tight.

Cassey Ho 00:34:57  So that was bad. And then so in the fourth drop and again like the first two drops were great because it was like I think, you know, within six months of each other, which felt like really healthy for a collection drop. The third drop took like a year and a half because I did not understand how to fit for plus. And so anyway, when I dropped the third one, it was too tight. People were not happy with that. So then in the fourth one, everything was like too big and people weren't happy with that. And of course, what happens with clothing and fit is that if you don't get it right, if it's not consistent, you lose trust. And when you lose trust, you lose the customer. And, you know, sales were stagnant and going down as my channel started going up. So these things were not matching because I didn't know much enough about the garment construction process. And it wasn't until I found a manufacturer who was able to help interpret what I needed.

Cassey Ho 00:35:51  And also I started working with a technical designer to help me understand better the fit on a female body. That's when things started to change and that was around like 2019 or something. No, but like seriously, from 2016 to before, I found that next manufacturer. Sales were up and down and almost dead. Wow. Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:36:10  And so your channels are growing. Yeah. Down in Almost Dead. And then you have to make a decision. And what what is your. If you go back to that time like this, at what point you're like, I have another one in me. I'm ready to head to this bet and talk to me about the technical designer who you hired. And was that a different hire? Did you know you needed that hire? And it was a matter of finding that hire? Or did that person find you?

Cassey Ho 00:36:31  Yeah. I mean, I think I just put something up online contractor. And it was just the person who responded to me and they were in LA, and I was like, cool.

Cassey Ho 00:36:39  Like, let's meet up for a few hours. Let's figure this out. But yeah, I mean.

Jasmine Star 00:36:45  Understanding, like when you're in this point, we're down and almost dead. What do you say to yourself? Like, I'm going to give this another try and like, where are you at? Like, how much risk are you willing to pay?

Cassey Ho 00:36:55  So? So this was my. So remember how I told you there was all that online stuff happening? Oh, yeah. Okay, so there was that. There was the toxic team happening. And then there was also the business not doing well. So all three were happening at once. So you can only imagine how bad and insecure. And just like I am worthless as a human being. Like that's how I felt. I felt like I couldn't do anything right for anyone, and also felt ugly in my body because everyone was telling me I was ugly in my body. So I really wanted to give up. I was having panic attacks and honestly, like I don't.

Cassey Ho 00:37:30  I didn't believe in myself anymore, which is really tough because I always believe in myself. I'm very confident person and I have dreams. And my husband was like, Cassie, give it 30 more days and I really didn't want to. I wanted to stop blogging, support, flex and like move to Hawaii and just be like this. I just need to live a different life. And magically it's in those last moments of almost giving up when you have to crawl out of that hole. That this different type of survival instinct like, comes out and things just happen. And it was in those 30 days that that other manufacturer just randomly emailed me and I was like, oh, whatever, I'm not even going to give you a tech pack. I'm going to send you my sketches and like, let's see what you can do as a test. And he actually did really great. And I was like, oh, okay. So that's when he came around. That's when I found the technical designer on Upwork.

Cassey Ho 00:38:20  Like things just happen. And also the bad apples left and new apples, do you call them apples anymore? I don't know, new people.

Jasmine Star 00:38:28  Saplings.

Cassey Ho 00:38:28  Because.

Jasmine Star 00:38:29  They're grown. They were grown.

Cassey Ho 00:38:30  Bad apples left saplings came in. And it just like was the beginning of something fresh and new. So I really do owe it all to my husband, Sam, for telling me not to give up, because I truly had given up on myself in that time.

Jasmine Star 00:38:44  And Sam, is your CEO or director of ops?

Cassey Ho 00:38:47  Yeah. He's CEO.

Jasmine Star 00:38:48  Yeah. Yeah.

Cassey Ho 00:38:49  Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:38:50  That's right.

Cassey Ho 00:38:50  He's so good at what he does, and I don't want to be doing what he does.

Jasmine Star 00:38:55  That's amazing. Okay, so then you see this. You see this shift happening? Yeah. And then talk to me about the Taylor Swift moment, because there's these couple things where it's like, all of a sudden the saplings are in place.

Cassey Ho 00:39:05  And you're.

Jasmine Star 00:39:06  Finding a better fit, and you're restoring trust, and you're building out that audience, and then sometimes you're able to catch lightning in a bottle.

Cassey Ho 00:39:13  Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna back up a little bit, because what I can tell from this conversation is that you really love these inflection points, right? Yeah. Okay, so this whole time.

Jasmine Star 00:39:22  Period is amazing. Do you see how she's like, oh, I get it. I get the game we're playing. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. I'm like.

Cassey Ho 00:39:29  Okay, so this whole time from 2009 on, I was making long form horizontal videos. Okay. And that was all fitness videos. Now around 2021. Okay. Again, it started in 2016 around 2021. I was feeling no longer challenged by doing the fitness videos. Now, I'm not saying I don't like fitness or working out or Pilates. I still do it every morning, okay? It's part of my lifestyle. However, creatively, I was no longer challenged and I'm the type of person I guess. Unfortunately, that has to always live my life so challenged at all times in order to feel some sense of self-worth. It's just horrendous how I was brought up anyway, so I wanted to make a change in my content for myself and show people more of who I was, and so I wanted to show people Cassey Ho, the designer, not just Cassie Ho, the fitness instructor.

Cassey Ho 00:40:21  And if I had not made that change to short form content and the why behind the design, which is which are the videos you see now, I would have burnt out creatively 100%. And you will see YouTubers talk about this all the time. They kind of get stuck on the views and the content, what people expect from them. But I am someone who follows my heart through and through. It has always led me to the right place, no matter how painful the pathway is, it takes me to the right place. So around 2021, I decided, hey, let's talk about construction of garments like it's to me, it's interesting, it's scientific, it's architectural. People think fashion is so fluffy and superficial, but it is so smart and you just don't hear people talk about it. And so I wanted to talk to women about, hey, what creates a camel toe? Why do you need that front seam? That video went viral and I was like, oh, okay, let me talk more about fashion in this different way of really bringing the audience into the why behind the construction.

Cassey Ho 00:41:22  And these videos started going viral. Then they would go viral and sell out the product within hours. And then it just became my format. It became a new format, and I am so grateful. I'm so lucky that this pivot actually ended up working for me, because I've seen other content creators try to do a big pivot, and it may not work out for them. The audience may not come along for the ride, But I think for me, the difference is that desire of wanting to be a fashion designer, that was in my bones since I was born, and I think the audience could really tell that this is coming from a different place.

Jasmine Star 00:41:56  I want to hear from like a business perspective. Yeah. And so just to slow it down a tiny bit for the audience is she went from long form horizontal into short form vertical, but she wasn't doing fitness in the short form, in the short form vertical. What she was doing was how to explaining why. Let's say you get a camel toe in workout clothes.

Jasmine Star 00:42:18  She was explaining fit to people. So while she wasn't speaking about fitness in specifically, she can actually get a fitness shirt and describe the differences between it. So it was an extension, not a complete diversion. And so then she starts realizing that she's striking a nerve by education. But what does the education do? It ends up selling her clothes. And that right there is just what you've pioneered. And I say pioneered because so many people have copied it And it's so effective and like great to each their own. But you you saw it. You did it. And then you had these. You reaped massive rewards from it. So you're shifting an audience, though, because I'm guessing that the audience on YouTube became very different when you went to TikTok. Instagram, it skewed younger and.

Cassey Ho 00:43:00  It did skew younger. And I remember because this was during the pandemic, I remember one of the first times we were all let out again, I was out on the streets for the first time. A little girl who was like eight or something came up to me and was like, I want to be a fashion designer just like you.

Cassey Ho 00:43:16  And that was the first time. It wasn't a woman who came up to me and said, thank you for helping me lose weight, thinking, thank you for helping me be more confident in my body. And that's when it started changing. That was like the coolest thing. I will always remember it.

Jasmine Star 00:43:29  And she likely saw you on TikTok.

Cassey Ho 00:43:31  Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:43:32  Wow. Okay, okay, so then talk to me about this shift in the demo, shift in views and what type of growth are we seeing when you when you decide I'm going to shift my content, which in itself is a risk from a business perspective. How are you quantifying the time and amount of energy because you spend a lot of time creating content?

Cassey Ho 00:43:50  Oh my goodness. Yes okay, so 1/62 short, 1/62 short takes me around 9 to 10 hours. And that's in filming. editing. There's a lot of.

Jasmine Star 00:44:04  Ways you're doing it.

Cassey Ho 00:44:05  You're I'm all doing it myself. And I know that's crazy. I know people think I'm crazy, but I have to explain myself, okay? I'm explaining myself because each of my designs are my babies, okay? I spend around average two years of product development.

Cassey Ho 00:44:19  I mean, every fit for every product. And so I see the evolution of this product and around like 90, 95% of the products that we make all come from my, my sketch, that original concept. So I'm there for an entire process. And I want to be the person that breathes it to the world. And so it's really important for me just in here again in my heart to tell its story. And so I really do enjoy just taking my phone. Setting it up on a little tripod. And I just like, I honestly, I just start filming because I already know I don't do a script. I don't do a storyboard. Now, if I was working with a bunch of other people 100%, I have to do that. But it's all in my head. And so I film, I edit, I don't write, but my writing actually is the editing part because I'm thinking about how the story is going to be told. And then at the end, I'll do the voiceover once I have something that seems right and I just like, again, I don't script it out, I just, I just speak.

Cassey Ho 00:45:14  And so, yeah, 9 to 10 hours, it's a lot. But it brought the joy back into editing for me because at the end of making fitness videos, I honestly and I wasn't editing at the end, I couldn't stand it anymore. How many times can I hear myself talking about how to do a double leg lift or crunch? Like love it, but again, wasn't mentally challenged anymore. But talking about garment construction and just like the why behind, you know, different scenes and stuff like that's interesting to me because it's different. Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:45:44  And so you start making this pivot. The content changes, the audience is changing. People are responding to it. You're it's lit up something on the inside. And so then what happens for the Taylor Swift moment.

Cassey Ho 00:45:56  Okay.

Jasmine Star 00:45:57  And I actually have to say, just as a side note, I love the content that you put out. I, I whenever I see a video and talking about your sketch to real life, I absolutely love it because when I wear it, I know, like, oh, this is a secret pocket.

Jasmine Star 00:46:10  Yeah. And oh, this is the way. And so I just want the audience to know that I am wearing currently currently perplex currently. And before we turn on cameras, Cassie said, oh my gosh, this sweater looks so good in you. And I was just like, I want it in every color, not as an endorsement, but because I know what went in behind it and I noticed the details that had I might, overlooked. It's like, oh no, it's metal. It's a weighted end to like the hoodie string. And I know where like my side pockets are. And I know that I could pair it with a pair of jean shorts, and I put it off the shoulder and it goes from like my gym to I'm just going to go out and spend the day here in Austin and just like, feel fly.

Cassey Ho 00:46:43  So yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:46:44  Spend those nine hours. Girl, we appreciate it. We're better because of it. Okay. But talk to me. Okay. So this is the main point because what we see is a big take off.

Jasmine Star 00:46:53  And then we see and this is where I want to like kind of like lend it to a bit of suspense because there is the Taylor Swift moment. Then there's a bunch of people who copy it.

Cassey Ho 00:47:01  Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:47:01  And then there's Cassie. And again, becoming a pioneer, climbing the next mountain and taking on much bigger audiences and bigger companies. So let's talk about that real quick.

Cassey Ho 00:47:13  Okay, so we can't talk about the Taylor Swift moment without talking about the sport that started it all, the skort, the score that started it all. So in 2021, I sketched the pure wet skort. And essentially it's a wide waistband skort two tiered mesh with shorts under anti little pockets. And it really just imagine ballerina Meets fitness. Okay. It's just strong, athletic and graceful all at the same time. So anyway, drew that in 2021. Released it in 2022. When I was drawing it, I told my husband, Sam Sheehan is going to copy this. I already knew because they were copying everyone and I was like, there's nothing like this on the market.

Jasmine Star 00:47:51  Oh, because it was new and so different.

Cassey Ho 00:47:52  New and novel, and I had never seen it before. Okay. And so surely enough, I released the Skort. It goes viral. It sells out pretty much immediately as we're trying to restock, she and swoops in and makes the score just like I said they would. And I end up calling them out. I was reached out by their XI and US president, who wanted to get on a phone call with me to rectify things I'd like to rectify. Take it off the website and never do this again. We ended up meeting. He tried to offer a partnership for me to design for them. I was like, absolutely not. Just take this off the website and never do this again.

Jasmine Star 00:48:30  Where are you.

Cassey Ho 00:48:30  Meeting?

Jasmine Star 00:48:31  Is it.

Cassey Ho 00:48:32  In person? Virtually. No. They wanted me to come in person. I was like, no, I don't I don't think that's safe. I don't think that's safe.

Jasmine Star 00:48:39  So you meet virtually and they're trying instead of like, rectifying, instead of saying, we stole the we stole.

Cassey Ho 00:48:44  Your they never they never admitted to that.

Jasmine Star 00:48:46  Okay? So they just said, oh, funny. We have the same identical item that didn't exist anywhere else, but we saw it went viral with you.

Cassey Ho 00:48:52  Well, what? No. So they they you know, what he said is that. Oh, that's not even our design. You know, we have buyers that it's a marketplace. We just bought it from a factory. Like what? Like pretty much never admitted that. Their people clearly saw my design and copied it because they saw the success. And the crazy thing is now, and I'm like forwarding a million years. Not really. But there are multiple products on screen that are direct copies of Pop Flex. Like, it's just like, I know exactly what you're doing. it's not just me. And there's been other brands that not only copy the design and many of these patented designs, they also copy the way of filming. They'll even hire a model with my same body type, maybe my same background to confuse the audience, for example, like a hilera.

Cassey Ho 00:49:39  And fans have actually come up to me and they've been like, hey, is that your subbrand? Like, that's the level of confusion that we're talking about. But yeah, there's a whole conversation around that I'm sure we're going to get into. But yeah, so she and copies it. They eventually take it down, promise they won't do it again. And then of course it keeps happening. But because of that, it inspired me to get a design patent. And I've never had a patent before in my life. And I, you know, we went through the process of getting an expedited design patent. So normally when you file an application, it could take anywhere between, you know, two, three, five years depending and an expedited, if you pay extra money can give it to you within like a year or so if it even gets approved. It's very difficult. And so lucky for me, it was proven that no one has ever created anything like the pirouette skort before. So I get granted the design patent.

Cassey Ho 00:50:31  Weirdly, on my birthday in 2024. Yeah. January 16th, 2024. I don't know if you, like, believe in, like, numbers and stuff, but I feel like lots of magical things have just happened around the number 16. And that's like, so my number. And so that, that was that was a big sign for me. So that happens on January 16th, 2024. And then a few months later on April 19th, 2024, Taylor Swift was spotted wearing the pirouette skirt. And I was so numb. I died. I died because one. I have been listening to Taylor Swift since way back, like 2008 era. Teardrops on my guitar. Like she has helped me through breakups, heartbreak so much into C. Like literally my favorite celebrity and musician wearing my baby like the one that I have fought so much for, knowing that she's also fought so hard for her music. Like, it just meant so much to me. And whether or not she knew that she chose that skirt because of what I've gone through.

Cassey Ho 00:51:36  It didn't matter.

Jasmine Star 00:51:36  Because.

Cassey Ho 00:51:37  It meant so much to me. And I man, like I'm still dying from that. But that created this crazy connection between Pop Flex and Taylor Swift and really just put Pop Flex on like, this different level. And we obviously sold out of that digital lavender pirouette Skort pretty much immediately. Then all the other pirouette scored started selling out. And you know, we did the reorder as fast as we could. But of course during the reorder.

Jasmine Star 00:52:04  Period.

Cassey Ho 00:52:05  All these dupes started popping up. And it's just been insane and horrendous and a game of whac-a-mole. Even with the patent to take it down. Because what people never talk about is that, okay, you pay thousands of dollars to the government to get this patent, but when you have it, there's no one in the government to help you enforce it. And it's a game of money. And whoever has more money to pay the legal fees is going to win. So what ended up happening was that not only was it the Sheehan's, the Teemu, the TikTok shops like Amazon like so many.

Cassey Ho 00:52:41  And just to give you like an understanding of how bad it is. Just last week alone, last week alone on TikTok shop, there were 233 separate listings of the pirouette scored alone on TikTok shop. And every time there's a dupe listing, we have to fill out this huge form and take it down and all the work goes on, the owner on the owner instead of the infringer because they can upload again. And I literally have a person full time filling out these forms and taking down. But at this point, it's like she she doesn't even have enough time. I think I need to hire more people. And so it becomes like this thing that where I should be focusing on creating the next and the new, but I'm trying to protect myself now. There are people who say things like, oh wait, hold on, I need to finish that story, and then I'll go back to what I was trying to say after you see the jump. The spike in dupes for the online brands, online platforms just within the past few months, it's gone to American retailers.

Cassey Ho 00:53:39  And so that same pirouette score that Taylor Swift in that color patented by me is now at Nordstrom Rack, Kohl's, JCPenney, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, the list goes on. And it's just so infuriating because these multi-billion dollar corporations, what they they can't just make an order from the original designer like what is going on?

Jasmine Star 00:54:04  I saw this go down on Instagram, on TikTok, and your community really started going over to Nordstrom's Instagram and saying like, hey, yeah, what's going on? Yeah. What is transpired? Okay, so just to bring the audience up to speed, she has a patent, a design patent. She went on social media and said, hey Nordstrom. You can just order from us instead of buying a dupe. Support small business owners. And then her community all went over and said we want better and we want more. And then Nordstrom deflected.

Cassey Ho 00:54:34  No they didn't even they didn't even do anything. They never DM'd me back. They in fact during this whole saga instead of just like responding to any comments or saying anything, they put up this poor influencer like collab video and all the comments went on her page like it was bad moves.

Cassey Ho 00:54:50  I saw everything they were doing. They were just trying to bury it. Kept posting, deleting like until like fans would get tired and thinking I would get tired.

Jasmine Star 00:55:00  And they don't know who they messed.

Cassey Ho 00:55:01  With. They don't know who they messaged, what happened.

Jasmine Star 00:55:03  So things that now.

Cassey Ho 00:55:04  So I've had to change my legal team to get more aggressive. Unfortunately, they're spending a lot of money on legal fees. I'm spending money on legal fees because I'm not going to shut up. I'm not going to shut up about this because when I fight for myself, it's not just about me and that score. It's about all the other independent designers who can't pay for this. I'm standing up for all of us because this happens all the time. There is no respect for creatives. People think you know. People have even told me before. Oh. Your patent doesn't mean anything. I could design that in my sleep. Well, then why didn't you. Why didn't you? I think the same type of lack of respect happens when you just kind of see what's going on with AI and artists.

Cassey Ho 00:55:45  Like taking away from artists. And there would be no AI and generation of images if there was no one to take from. So there's just this like lack of respect for artistry gets me really riled up. And so I'm fighting for all of the artists out there, and I'm hoping that we can come to some type of resolution. And I will never shut up about this. And I'm glad I'm not, because when I see people on the street, the first thing they say, they always go like, keep fighting Nordstrom, keep fighting the bad guys and I'm going to keep fighting. Okay. Yeah.

Jasmine Star 00:56:14  This right here, ladies and gentlemen is Cassey Ho. This is that same mentality and that same belief of I'm going to fight. I'm going to fight. Getting out of potentially becoming a buyer. I'm going to fight by having like 16ft of boxes in my parent's home. I'm going to fight to get the warehouse I'm going to fight to fulfill. I'm going to fight to figure out what sizing is.

Jasmine Star 00:56:35  I'm going to fight to figure out expansion. I'm going to fight every obstacle in her way, in her next obstacle has proven to be bigger than most people would ever take on. And what she's saying is, I'm here and I'm ready. And that is why I wanted her on the show, because it inspires us to take on whatever big opposition is in our way and say, if somebody like Cassie, who's never formally designed, can figure out how to design for somebody like Cassie, who's put out batches that did really well and then got down to almost zero, can still rise and come back up from that, can we not to Cassie, where can people go to find more about Pop Flex, about what's about going deeper in your story?

Cassey Ho 00:57:14  So lucky for me, I am at blog ladies on every single platform. Thank goodness. It's a weird word and nobody wants it. and then pop flicks.com is where you can find the designs.

Jasmine Star 00:57:26  You can find the score. You can find the sweater. You can find all of the stuff that I absolutely love living in.

Jasmine Star 00:57:31  Lucky for me, I like to wear workout clothes at home and then at the gym. So I'm.

Cassey Ho 00:57:36  Yeah, always, always comfortable and stylish.

Jasmine Star 00:57:39  Yeah. If you are really trying to uplevel your content. I follow Cassie, yes, to learn, but I'm watching what she does. It is so wildly powerful. I probably can have a whole other conversation just about your ideology, about content creation. So maybe we bookmark that for another time, but.

Cassey Ho 00:57:56  Oh, anytime.

Jasmine Star 00:57:56  Thank you. Thank you for showing your resilience. Thank you for being so inspiring. Thank you for continuing to push so many people who are looking, myself included. I'm looking up at what it is that you're doing because you become a waymaker for so many of us. So thank.

Cassey Ho 00:58:06  You. Oh, and thank you. And can I just say how lovely it was to talk to you and the way you helped guide this conversation and fill in holes, because I actually have a lot of trouble telling my story because it's so windy.

Cassey Ho 00:58:19  As with like, I'm sure you talked to so many entrepreneurs and just like so windy and so thank you for pulling out the bits that where you wanted to get.

Jasmine Star 00:58:26  I take that I take that as a compliment because I truly respect everything you've done. And it's my job to be like, how can we get literally decades of your magic into a 60 minute conversation? And so the fact that you saw that in me being like, okay, I'm going to continue doing this because I think that hopefully the work that I do elevates and highlights the magic that you are. So if you get in the car with Sam and you say on the inside, it feels good, then I'll be like, heck yeah!

Cassey Ho 00:58:50  On the inside.

Jasmine Star 00:58:51  It feels.

Cassey Ho 00:58:51  Good. Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question? Okay, so at the top of this interview, you said that sometimes when you talk to I forget if it was entrepreneurs or just people in general, they don't get into that emotional side.

Cassey Ho 00:59:04  That's what you said, right? Yeah. What what are they normally giving you? Because I am such an emotionally sensitive Cassie.

Jasmine Star 00:59:10  A lot of the work that I did in studying what it is that you had done. It was really surprising to me how much you say, like I cried. It hurts my feelings. I'm sensitive. And it really was a juxtaposition for me because I'm super high logic, high analytical. Yes, like the mean comments absolutely hurt me. But then I just kind of turn it into internal fuel. And I saw somebody who is really open about being sensitive, really open about the feelings of it, and then doing something that I wouldn't even have the capacity to do is to stake. I'm going to turn this on the inside out, and I'm going to show you what you want of me. And it was such a power move that I was like, whoa! And what I genuinely see is high logic, high analytics, high quant. This is the thing that we're going to do.

Jasmine Star 00:59:52  And you're like feeling. And I was like, I need to tap into that. That's why I wanted you on the show okay. There's different paths to success. There just is. And I'm like, dang, I maybe osmotic? Well, I was like, I'll get more of your girl.

Cassey Ho 01:00:05  I get more of you. Can I just tell you how many times I wish I could just, like, take a pill and, like, not feel so much because I feel too much. Everything is so well. Look, it's double edged, right? Yes. The happiest. So good. But when I'm like, so sad, I'm like dying. Yeah. So. Yes. Let's automatically rub.

Jasmine Star 01:00:25  Over. It's your power. It's your power, it's your power. And we can. And we both learn from each other. But just being around you and seeing a different side of an entrepreneur, wildly successful, it just proves that there's so many paths to success. And that's what I wanted to show.

Jasmine Star 01:00:37  Thank you so much. Thank you for being here, I adore you, I hope you have a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful day. And I just know, just know that if I saw you in the street, I'd probably fist bump you. I'm like, keep on fighting. Keep on fighting. Yeah. If you enjoyed this episode of The Jasmine Star Show, do us a favor. Subscribe. Follow blogger ladies, join her journey and support what it is that she's doing. And if you like that athleisure. This is the entrepreneur. Yeah, this is.

Cassey Ho 01:01:01  A cloud hoodie from the cloud hoodie.

Jasmine Star 01:01:03  Cloud hoodie basically entrepreneur uniform. You can check it out at flex. Thank you so much for being here.

Cassey Ho 01:01:08  Thank you.