You're doing it wrong!: The Gravel God's Guide to Gravel Racing.

Summary

In this episode, Dave Schell and Gravel God, Matti Rowe, discuss the differences between road racing and gravel racing. They highlight the importance of pacing, drafting, and fueling in gravel races. They emphasize the need to assess one's goals and adjust strategies accordingly. They also discuss the challenges of technical sections and the impact of heat on performance. Matti shares his experiences and provides insights on how to optimize performance in gravel races. In this conversation, Matti and Dave discuss the key factors for success in long gravel races like Unbound. They emphasize the importance of pacing, fueling, and equipment selection. Matti shares his experience of going from last place to a top 50 finish by focusing on steady pacing and fueling. They caution against the temptation to keep up with the lead group and taking unnecessary risks early in the race. They also highlight the significance of equipment selection, prioritizing durability and comfort over rolling resistance. In terms of training, they recommend avoiding cramming and overtraining, and instead focusing on building physical bandwidth and freshness. They also discuss the mental side of racing, including visualization, mantras, and preparing for dark moments. They conclude by emphasizing the need for simplicity, sticking to the plan, and staying calm during the race.

Takeaways

• Gravel racing requires a different approach than road racing, with a focus on technical skills and aggressive riding.
• Assess your goals realistically and adjust your strategy accordingly.
• Drafting can be beneficial in gravel races, but it depends on the course and the group dynamics.
• Pacing is crucial in gravel races, with a focus on maintaining a steady effort and working the course efficiently.
• Heat management and proper fueling are essential for maintaining performance in long gravel races. Pacing and fueling are crucial for success in long gravel races. It's important to detach from the instinct to keep up with the lead group and instead focus on steady pacing and fueling throughout the race.
• Equipment selection should prioritize durability and comfort over rolling resistance. It's important to choose tires and gear that will keep you upright and minimize the risk of punctures.
• In training, avoid cramming and overtraining. Focus on building physical bandwidth and freshness, and train at around 85% of your available time.
• Mental preparation is key for long gravel races. Visualize and prepare for dark moments, and use mantras or reminders to stay focused and motivated.
• Simplicity is key during the race. Stick to your plan, avoid making last-minute decisions, and remove barriers by organizing your gear and supplies in a clear and accessible way.

Looking for coaching for the 2026 season? Send me a note at dave@kaizenendurance.coach or find me on instagram @kaizenendurance

Leave a rating and review and share with your fellow athletes. Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Dave S (00:00.974)
Welcome back to the Training Bible Podcast. I'm your host Dave Schell and we are back for another fabulous episode with the gravel god himself, Matti Rowe. How's it going, Matti?

Matti (00:09.765)
So good. Always good to talk to you, Dave.

Dave S (00:13.582)
So you just got back from Gila, how'd that go?

Matti (00:17.765)
It was, I was terrible. It was a disaster personally. I think there were some bright spots in the team, like very slim moments of light that would stop us from leaving Silver City in absolute shame and desperation.

Dave S (00:36.877)
So what was it, why was it so a disaster for you?

Matti (00:42.461)
I mean, I'm just not that good in that pond.

Dave S (00:47.201)
In which pond is that? Road racing?

Matti (00:52.253)
The UCI Road Race. Like, I don't know if you've ever ridden with somebody who's just, God, there's this quote that I love. Somebody back in the day when Valverde was getting ready to win his whatever seventh world championship and he was training with somebody and this guy was sitting with his friend and he was like, you know how someone's faster? And the guy's like, how? And he's just like, he's just faster. Like you ride with Valverde.

Dave S (00:54.572)
Okay.

Matti (01:21.341)
And like everything he does is just better. And that was Hila, like everybody is just faster. So.

Dave S (01:30.86)
When did you move up to racing UCI? Like, when did you move up to that? Five years ago. And so what was that like? What was the jump when you when you moved from Cat, was it Cat 2 up to UCI?

Matti (01:35.261)
five years ago. Yeah.

Matti (01:42.845)
Yeah, it's, I mean, in some respects, it's just like, people have more power to weight, which I'm good enough to be in the field, but there's this whole other thing, whole other skill set that, that matters, which is just, you got to be like really technically good. And you have to be aggressive and you have to be kind of cutthroat.

Like you look at a field, but most people watch bike racing and they rode bike racing and they look at a field and they're like, look, like the people are at the front and like, that's so easy. Of course he's at the front or, or this descent doesn't look too hairy. Like that's your viewing experience. But in like the, the faster the race gets, the more insane risks people take. And when you have a group of, I mean, granted, this was kind of a small field is a hundred people, but it's just like all day, every day.

is just a fight to be in a spot. There's never like a switch off moment. And like, you'll just be, you know, you'll look at the race course and you think, there's like, this hill is going to be challenging. This is sort of a gnarly corner and this will be challenging. And so mentally you're prepared for that to be challenging. But what you find is challenging is you're going over this short bump. The break is forming and a hundred people are lined out over a quarter mile in a two person hell conga line while you're.

Dave S (02:42.857)
Yeah.

Matti (03:11.229)
10th from the back, spitting 400 watts out your butthole, like trying desperately not to get dropped on mile six. That's like everything that happens before you get to the point that you think is going to be hard. And then that point's hard.

Dave S (03:24.265)
Yeah. Right, yeah, like, so half the battle is just making it to the selection point that you had identified, you know.

Matti (03:31.357)
Just making it to selection. Yes, yes. And then there's definitely, and I count myself somewhat in this, although I'm getting better, but there's definitely this obvious disparity in technical ability that you can create, you can make your own problems in addition to that. I said I was terrible because three times during the race in three different stages, I had great legs. I legitimately felt good, felt amazing.

I was just in the wrong spot and there were other morons around me who would just break at the wrong time and then open up a 20 foot gap and explode. And suddenly it's like, I'm spending all my matches, like cleaning up after your mess and just getting back to the field. And the moment I do, it was just like, now they're going and I'm already spent. But not that that mattered. Like the most telling moment for me was in the last day of the Hela Monster, which is a hundred miles, 9 ,000 feet of climbing.

Dave S (04:08.327)
Yeah.

Matti (04:30.845)
I didn't even make it to the start of the climbs because of said idiotic handling. And I just got back on and Oscar Sevilla, who is in, who rides for team Medellin is 48 and was in the tour and I think finished fourth in the Vuelta had flatted. And so he was off the back too. So he got a new wheel. So I rode past him going as hard as I could and he flipped his, got a new wheel and then just rode.

me kind of like a motor like a motorcycle goes past a semi on the highway not even breathing and it was just like okay like I guess this is just for training then

Dave S (05:13.445)
Yeah.

Dave S (05:20.133)
And so this brings us to why we're chatting today. we were talking offline about kind of the way that people approach a gravel race. And I think a lot of people maybe started in road cycling or watch road cycling and then bring a lot of that mentality to gravel racing, but a lot of it just doesn't hold up. And I think a lot of it matters too in like, what are your goals with that race? And so, yeah, if you're going for a podium,

or a win, your goals are gonna look very different than somebody who's just trying to get the best time over 205 miles. So I guess let's start there. I think that's a good part is so much of road racing is about energy management and energy conservation and who has the matches at the end of the race.

Matti (05:58.652)
Yeah.

Matti (06:16.316)
Absolutely.

Dave S (06:16.356)
how does that differ from gravel racing in your experience and at your level? So let's first start like talking about you where you're, you are, you know, going for your best place and taking risks and things like that. And how does that differ from road racing? And then how is that different for somebody who's just trying to get their best time?

Matti (06:34.717)
Well, I think a lot of it has to do with just the pure distance and the effect of drafting. So I'll start with distance. In road racing, it's usually, and I know some road races can be longer, but generally in road racing, it's short enough that you never, ever, ever want to lose the pack if you can help it. And if you're going to lose them, like that's because they're behind you and you're attacking. But I mean, that's just the general rule. And so,

I see a lot of roadies maybe coming into gravel and bringing that same mentality, which is right, but it's also wrong and requires you to go up to your favorite mom and pop diner and order the humble pie before the race and sort of decide like, can I legitimately contend or not? Like in all honesty, because and.

And I mean, like, be serious about it. Like, could you, like, potentially have a podium in this race or a really top result or not? Because in my opinion, answering yes or no to that question has widely divergent strategies just because of the way gravel is. So I'm going to go with my personal strategy. After eating my humble pie, I'm going to say I am not contending for the win in any major gravel race. We don't have to go into why. I'm going to blame mom.

but that's just the way that it is. So, okay, I'm not gonna contend for the win. That means to me that I should not go in with a road race mentality of blowing all my matches up in the first hour or two just to stay with the lead group. Because the problem is, it's just a matter of time until I'm going to lose the group, and then that person that is...

hopefully finishing because I have self -respect and ethics Isn't going to be a person as much as just a carcass like randomly turning their legs over the pedals and Why because you're physiologically all the matches and the systems you use in road racing basically in road racing is decided by At least an American road racing outside of a grand tour violent accelerations that are anaerobic in nature

Dave S (08:45.696)
But...

Matti (09:03.229)
So you could do that and stay with, but if you keep doing that and you're just going to get dropped, you are just smashing yourself and you'll never come back. And basically what you end up doing is death marching your way to the finish if you finish it all. So.

Dave S (09:19.393)
But distance has a lot to do with that too, right? Because like UCI just had their nationals in Fayetteville, I think anyway. But the races were typically like 50 miles. And so it ends up being a lot more like a road race because it is just a shootout. But you can afford that same shootout for 205 mile race. Or even a hundred mile on gravel is going to look a bit different than 50 miles on gravel.

Matti (09:49.564)
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's not an equals one and all that you have to recommend to the individual, but I would in general say that if it, if the race duration, if you're training roughly 10 to 15 hours a week, let's call it. so roughly that's 500 to 750 hours a year. If you're in that sort of ballpark and the race duration is let's call it.

distance rather is maybe 70 to 100 miles. I think you can, I think you have enough endurance. You're probably well trained enough to raise it more like a road race as long as your nutrition is on point and take some risks because the penalty isn't that bad. Like, you blew up and it's let's call it a hundred miles. You blew up at 85. Okay. Well you only have 15 miles of humble, you know, of real self loathing to get yourself through.

But if it's unbound, I mean, the people that race, and I have quotation marks up there, the people that race unbound, I mean, that's just not, it's just not in the cards if you're not training enough to be able to sustain that sort of intensity. Guaranteed, you're gonna blow up and then instead of having 15 miles to coax yourself through, you have 100 plus. And that's just.

that's not going to make you enjoy gravel.

Dave S (11:19.648)
Yeah, so let's start by talking about what a gravel race actually looks like. And I guess compare it to a road race. So I guess tell us first, what does a road race typically look like if we're looking at a power file and heart rate and stuff like that?

Matti (11:42.428)
Well, in most road races, and we'll call them, yeah, kind of longish, and say the average is 50 to 100, let's call it. There's always a couple of people who go off and do the long bomb break or whatever, but usually the people who actually have a chance to win don't. And so most of their power file and heart rate is relatively chill and doing the very minimum to stay well positioned in the group.

Initially and teammate usually there's teams involved and so that rider is not spending any extra energy or matches that they don't need because They're waiting to the end To spend all their energy with their you know potentially race -winning fitness to win the race gravel races in general by contrast are Invariably absolutely crazy from the start doesn't matter what the distance is. It could be the tour de vie

I guarantee you go to the start of the tour divide. You're just seeing people trying to hold a thousand watts for five minutes. It's just off so hard. And then it's like usually a big selection is made and whittles down to kind of an elite group. And then it's just a slow like attrition wasting away toward the finish usually.

Dave S (13:05.105)
Yeah, exactly. And that's been my experience too, is that usually the first one to two hours are pretty damn hot. And so it's people, one, trying to stay with groups, two, I think it's good just to like get yourself out of trouble and like kind of be riding with the people you should be riding with and avoid crashes. And then it kind of settles down. And so I don't know how you direct athletes with this, but like, I think this...

Matti (13:23.004)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave S (13:33.723)
topic came up between you and I because a lot of people, like we said, they either have road race or they watch road races and so they come into it with the same mentality and it's like, I've got to be with the fast pack and I've got to do this. But a lot of times you're doing that in a gravel race, you're going to blow yourself up and get dropped and then be riding by yourself the rest of the time anyway. And so I've told people like, yeah, like start that first 30 to 60 minutes pretty hard. And then.

Pace will come down a little bit and then find the people that are around your same pace and those are the groups you want to work with. It's okay to be going a little bit outside your comfort zone where you want to be, but there's no point in you like riding outside yourself taking poles only to get dropped after an hour or 30 minutes, right?

Matti (14:18.268)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, I like that framing. I think, I think first hour and this is assuming you're pretty well trained in nutrition style. I think taking some reasonable risks, I'll call them playing some of your cards first hour or two to get in a reasonable group is smart. But, and I, a reasonable group. Yeah. and easiest objective measure with a reasonable group is like,

Dave S (14:38.294)
I like that reasonable group. Yeah, yeah.

Matti (14:48.348)
When you're in the draft, like, can you basically be, can you basically be in tempo or maybe sweet spot? And if the answer to that is no, then this is a mistake.

Dave S (14:50.521)
Exactly. Yes.

Dave S (15:02.041)
No, I love that. And I again, it depends on the duration of the race or the distance of the race. But yeah, it's like for something very long, like unbound. If you're in the air quotes draft. Doing more than tempo, that's probably not sustainable and you're not going to be there very long. And I think like I've only done unbound once, but like my experience and it's like. There's it's.

Matti (15:20.187)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave S (15:30.041)
eight people wide, you can't see anything, you're riding over all kinds of crap and everything. And so like the drafting effect is like there's just not a lot of it in that. And so I think really it becomes more about like finding people to help you like psychologically, like to pace and to work together and stuff like that. And yes, on road sections and maybe some smooth gravel, that stuff's going to help more. But it's like a lot of times just to be in the draft maybe isn't the best reason to burn all your matches.

Matti (16:00.156)
Yes. And I mean, it's good to make this kind of tailor this to pre -unbound, but I will say that I've done it, what, three times. And unfortunately, I'm going to make a yoga reference a little bit later on, but I'll start with this. The first, the first 50 miles of unbound and granted, like this isn't like since 2023, since last year, like they've had the elite or pro field or whatever. So I started in that. And even in that,

where you think people are pretty seasoned and smart. There's a lot of people that haven't gone to that diner and had that humble pie. And so that whatever, they won't make, they'll lose the lead group and they will do things that are just like so dumb. The DSM has to open up a new category, just like 500 Watts into the mud on the side, like next to barbed wire through visible thorn.

Because they want to get her because they can't pause for one second to get around somebody and you think like wow that person's extremely strong and they definitely are Extremely strong because I don't know if I could do that fresh you just see all these people with no patience So much urgency with this story in their head that keeps playing on loop like I could I could win I could win I could win I could win and it's like a no and be You're definitely right now

Dave S (16:56.918)
You

Matti (17:26.556)
sabotaging any chance of that because you're spending so much energy to get nowhere. And a lot of times this is silly. Like they bridge up to the group you happen to form like 90 minutes to two hours in. And because the group had a slight lull and I mean, the conga line could be 10 people. And when the conga line is relatively smaller, you can get into lines. There's more drafting effect. It's better. There's more benefit to it, but they just don't have time for it. And so they'll, you know,

anaerobic around 10 people into a downhill. And then after five miles, they're still hovering 30 feet in front of this group. And it's like, what are you doing? You have 150 miles left and you're just like lighting everything you got right on fire, right in front of this group for no reason. Like the lead group, the lead group is 20 minutes up the road.

Dave S (17:56.307)
Yeah.

Dave S (18:15.155)
So.

Dave S (18:18.771)
Yeah. And I think you going through that, it reminds me of one of my, like something I tell athletes all the time, but it also, I think this is what the title of this podcast is going to be. And it's don't be a sheep. Don't assume that other people know what they're doing. And I think that's such a hard thing. Like when you start off on a race and everybody takes off like a bullet out of a gun and you're like, they must know something I don't. And you follow them.

only to blow up. It's like a lot of times it takes confidence and discipline to watch those people go and then halfway through the race, you're reeling them back in as everybody starts to blow up. And so, yeah, I think just in general, that's what we're going to continue talking about today is all these little mistakes that people make. And I think so much of it starts with that, is that assuming that other people know what they're doing or that they know better than you.

can get you into trouble. And so the first one is, like we said, like going too hard to try to make a fast group is one of the issues. And so the other thing we've talked about is along the same lines as being in a group is getting the draft effect, right? And this is something that makes me crazy in gravel racing. I can't tell you how many times I've...

And I see people riding in a perfect pace line and just like trading off, trading off because that's what you're supposed to do. But it's like a 20 mile an hour crosswind and unbound I had my arrow bars and I can't tell you how many people, how many packs I passed just by getting in the arrow bars and just like riding easily past them because I was able to get diagonal from them. And so I'm protected from the wind. Just like, but like so many people like don't pay attention to where the wind's coming from.

they just ride in a pace line because that's what you're supposed to do. So what's your experience with that and how much drafting effect do you get? And then two, how do you use that to your advantage in gravel?

Matti (20:27.132)
so interestingly, I think this is where probably like non mountain bikers or a lot of off road people have the biggest advantage because they're actually familiar. And what you said is probably the biggest thing. Like some people don't even know what a draft feels like really consistently. And you, and you notice that immediately when you're trying to work with people and they're clearly just doing it wrong. Like, like you said, the crossword example is perfect. Like, no, like this, this gives me nothing. Or like, why are you working so hard over here?

Dave S (20:42.419)
Yeah.

Matti (20:56.956)
Like you should be over here and organizing that. I mean, some people are open to it, but a lot of people aren't. And so like in your example, a lot of times it's best to just, I don't know, like let people do their thing and either like slide past effortlessly or just like, I don't know. Usually there's a, there's a combination of that where if you're really bad at figuring out how to pace line or how to use a draft, you're also, it tends to like.

Dave S (20:58.385)
Yeah.

Dave S (21:15.121)
Yeah.

Matti (21:26.716)
co -occur with pretty sketchy handling. So a lot of times it's just better to decide not to work with that person. How important is it? Depends on the course. I think in Unbound, there's definitely places where it can be huge because not everything is the lifetime marketing little Egypt stuff that they advertise. A lot of it is just like, you know.

Very long stretches of perfectly navigable, flattish, almost boulder -like road where drafting would definitely be helpful. And if you're with a group that's functioning well and knows what to do, yeah, stay in that group for sure. But other stuff, you know, the more technical it gets, basically, the obviously the less it matters and also like the more of a risk it is because...

Dave S (21:58.256)
Yeah.

Matti (22:24.284)
If you're like, of course, the closer you are to wheels or like around to get in that draft, well, at unbound is often limited. There's like a wheel well or two. And so if you're really like trying to fight to get in there, there's dust going in your face. You're going into a rock garden. It's not important enough to have that much of a risk. We're just gonna crash or whatever else just to stay in there necessarily.

Dave S (22:51.6)
So this brings me to my next mistake. Pace lines. I think that's the other thing that like, this is another thing that kind of cracks me is people go to the front to take a pole and they just go way too hard or, and I think, I don't know if this was on band, there was another race where it was just like, everybody was just like soft pedaling the hills and then going really hard on the flats rather than like.

putting in more of an, like rather than keeping the pace kind of consistent or the effort consistent, it was just like totally backwards. And so like every time we'd get to a hill, I was having to like get over because I was like half wailing people and stuff like that. And then we'd get up to the top and they'd like start riding away from me because they'd just start riding way too hard again. And like one of my pacing advices to athletes is like when the course is slow work, when the course is fast, recover.

And so really you're gonna get the most return on your investment by going harder up the hills. That's where you're gonna get the most return for your energy investment. And so what is your advice to athletes? Like if you're not used to riding in packs or doing a pace line, like how do you moderate that? I've heard some people like recommend like pay attention to the miles per hour versus your watts and like try to keep the speed consistent.

Matti (24:12.892)
Yeah, that's a tough one because it's not totally under your control. Like, I've, I think it was 2022, I got the pleasure of writing with Ashton Lambie. I ended up in a group with him and he was running a clinic on how to pace. It was, he was sort of following what you were doing, but in contrast to lots of people, he didn't floor it on all the little bumps.

He kept it steady and consistent, but then over the top, he kept pushing and he was really working the course, keeping his momentum, but staying on the pedals, working the course, reading it. If there was, if he could get a little bit extra by maybe punching it a little more on the downhill so he could get momentum and just sort of like use that to scoot over things, he would do it. And if it was really steep, he would hold back and it wasn't.

He just wasn't manic. He was just a Buddha on his bike and just perfectly calm and just steady, steady, steady. And I mentioned the contrast because another person and he and I were working together, but another guy was absolutely flooring it on every single uphill and he would gap us. But then he would sort of coast on the downhill as they're kind of soft pedal party pace it other places. And we spent probably 40 miles where he could have been working with us.

But he was just alone, smashing every uphill and making no gain just the entire time.

Dave S (25:42.284)
As you talk about that, that's what was going on. Now that I think about it, every hill we'd come to, I'd start to pass people because they'd just back off way too much. They were keeping the power absolutely the same regardless of where we're at. And then you get to a downhill and everybody would slow way up and be on their brakes and everything versus, like you said, keeping it smooth and working the chorus. I love thinking of it like that.

Matti (26:09.71)
Yeah, Unbound's long enough and I think I've had enough of a feel of it and plus like been around people. Like because of power meters and all kinds of other data, it's very easy to just look at it as this very mechanical robotic, like I need to put out this much power and feel like this and keep my heart rate under this. It's easy to like lend that analysis to it. But people who are, there's this whole other mindset you can get into.

which is just trying to be as ruthlessly efficient as possible. Cause it really is, I know there's longer races, but it really is an ultra race. And that always privileges going as fast as you can for as little energy. And a lot of times that has, it doesn't always even necessarily have to do with like how you're pedaling. It can just be like, are you looking ahead and reading what's coming at you? Would it be a little bit better to, is this line better? Does this line look better?

Should I put a little bit more power here? Should I back off here? And how do I feel? Am I staying in around that tempo stuff or do I find myself spiking up too much? Okay, suddenly I'm heating up more. Suddenly I need even more fueling and that's not gonna go well for me. Like could I get aero here? Who's really looking smooth? Can I just follow them which takes off on my mental load? All those little things. Every little thing you do, it's just so long.

Dave S (27:29.13)
Yeah.

Matti (27:34.716)
that it just magnifies, even how you take corners. You know, how are you breaking into the, how are you breaking? Are you taking good lines or are you, you know, taking off too much speed and then you're accelerating out of that? Well, there are kind of a lot of like corners and changes of direction. And so if you randomly add again, like back to my HeLa thing, if you create all these problems for yourself, you just added 40 accelerations that weren't even necessary. So.

Dave S (28:04.809)
All right, so what's your next big mistake for gravel racing?

Matti (28:14.492)
I think it has to do with, I think partly it has to do with a little bit of mental and probably nutritional. From a nutritional standpoint, people always talk about fueling, but I actually just touched on it. It's the problem of heat. I think like a lot of gravel races occur in the summer and it's really hot and people, in my opinion, don't know their sweat rate, don't know how their dehydration,

also affects, also starts to limit or diminish their ability to take in calories. They don't preload. They don't stay like eat like a robot, hydrate like a robot when they don't feel like it. And then suddenly they just hit this wall and that's where you get all these classic problems. Like I can't eat anything or, you know, eyebrow cramps or whatever. It's a tricky thing, but it's like, it's a function of your pacing. It's a function of your intake.

It's also a function of just being in touch, being detached from numbers and being in touch with yourself subjectively and kind of knowing like where that line is and just being, having the courage to be a little bit under it so that you can keep on, keep a good pace going because the, you know, it's just like anaerobic threshold. You go under it, any, any duration under it and the lower intensity under anaerobic threshold, the longer you can hold it.

Above duration just tanks. And it's the same there. Like what you can sustainably keep holding and then, which is going to depend on the eating contest that is unbound or a long gravel race, keep taking down your stuff. That's going to play huge into whether you can hold a good performance or if you're going to hit a wall and then just random leg twirls for the rest of the race.

Dave S (30:11.045)
Yeah.

Matti (30:11.675)
around your crank.

Dave S (30:13.606)
Yeah, I think I always say this like you just said it. It's a it's an eating contest and I always think for these really long events like six plus hours, it's eating and pacing is what it comes down to. Like those are the big limiters. And so if you're not on top of the fueling or if you go out too hard, it's like it's not going to bother you the first three hours. You'll be great. You'll have a fantastic race. It's those last three to nine hours that are really going to crack you.

Matti (30:42.459)
And if you want to see, and it's rare that I brag about myself, but if you look up unbound, if you look up unbound 2023 results, you should look at the splits. It's for me, it's super interesting because it's a case in point of just fueling and pacing. So let's see. I just want to bring it up. Okay. mile 21, 90 of 93.

Dave S (31:01.125)
Yeah, I'll link to that for sure.

Matti (31:13.659)
mile 41, 91 of 93, mile 78, 85 of 93, mile 105, 76 of 93, 124, 59 of 93, 145, 51, 166, 51, 182, 49, full course 48. So that was all feeling and pacing. I went from dead last in the pro field to sort of respectable top 50. Just...

Dave S (31:34.789)
Right, exactly.

Matti (31:43.291)
But it was just fueling because I never really died. I just kept it going, kept it going, kept it going.

Dave S (31:50.885)
Well, and I think so many of these, and this goes back to what you were saying in the beginning, where it's like being honest with yourself and like being realistic. A lot of these things just turned into a time trial. And it's really about like, what is your best, how are you gonna achieve your best time across the course? And that's gonna come down to sticking to your pacing plan, sticking to your nutrition plan, unless you really do have a realistic chance of being in the top 10, top five.

Most those risks in the first two to three hours just aren't going to be worth it. They're just going to cause you pain and suffering later in the race.

Matti (32:30.779)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think people underestimate how like you really have to detach from that, that instinct to not letting the lead group go because probably I, I like, I would challenge people if they've never tried the, let the lead group grow and just eat your face off and pace strategy. I'd be really curious to see how you do in comparison to normal, like try a different conclusion to a gravel race. Instead of being that person.

Dave S (32:52.195)
Yeah.

Matti (33:00.187)
who's just constantly looking behind them, knowing that like, you know, their five -year -old cousin could beat them on a bike right now, because you can barely move and everything's cramping and you hate your life. Try being the other person who's just steadily within themselves and growing and just passing legends in your field that you thought could not be beaten, who are just like depressed skeletons, like on the side of the road caked in sodium.

Dave S (33:29.571)
No, I preach this to my athletes a lot too, where it's like, we talked about it before, it takes some faith, some confidence, some discipline to watch people ride away. It's hard. It's hard to watch people ride away from you. But if you trust that you'll be able to reel them in, it's a much better place to be in late in the race to where you're reeling people in than being passed like you're riding backwards. That can crack you mentally for sure. So.

I think the next big area where people are doing it wrong or the big mistake is equipment selection. And this kind of makes me crazy is that everybody's looking at like, what is the tire with the best rolling resistance or what is this or what is this? And something I always, for me, it's like, yeah, I actually, I'm looking at a text right now that somebody just, but it's like, for me, the fastest tire is the one that,

Matti (34:16.123)
Are you good at how many of those are you getting right now Dave?

Dave S (34:29.569)
keeps you upright and doesn't leave you on the side of the road fixing a flat or puncture, right? And so, yeah, there's all these different things we can look at and rolling resistance and all these things, but it's like unbound notoriously, you need something with puncture protection. And that does well in mud if you're actually able to ride, you know? And so, it doesn't matter what the rolling resistance is, it matters. Like what are the odds that you're going to get a puncture?

Matti (34:46.97)
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Dave S (34:59.009)
and that you'll still be able to ride through muddy sections.

Matti (35:03.195)
Yeah, this, I mean, it's one of, sometimes I have, if I have new athletes, it's been rare, but kind of lately they've been asking me like, what drives you the most nuts? What do athletes do that drives you the most nuts? And one of them.

Dave S (35:15.872)
Ha ha ha ha!

Matti (35:20.379)
One of them is people that are so fixated and over -optimized on equipment selection and so little interested in doing a lot of quality pedaling. Like you're, I totally agree with you. There are definitely instances in which you are incredibly fit. You've eaten your humble pie and you think you could be top 10. You're excellent technically. You've tried everything out. You're mechanically.

Dave S (35:32.703)
Yeah.

Matti (35:50.619)
sufficient to deal with problems. And you know what? Like, fine, like go to that website, rollingresistance .com or whatever and geek out, take chances, like do your thing. Maybe it makes sense. But for like most everybody else, do it. Dave just said, like pick the, pick the tire that's going to number one, keep you on the bike. So you're not constantly repairing. And number two,

is actually comfortable -ish. I would much rather have durability and comfort over rolling resistances. I could say at the spend your Watson. It's like half the time you're just gonna end up preparing flats all day, number one. Number two, at what cost? How much are you gonna get tossed around? How much are you gonna ruin your gooch throughout the, are you gonna feel every single stone? Just why?

And you know, and then all this is against the backdrop of like, how are you training optimally?

No, it's way more fun to like spend five hours on Reddit, like going down rabbit holes at two in the morning, like reading rando's opinions on what tires best.

Dave S (37:07.836)
Yeah. And so with that, like, let's talk about training. How do you prepare? Like I've got some ideas and like things I use. So how do you prepare for something like Unbound? What do you think are the key kind of workouts?

Matti (37:30.426)
I, well first and foremost, and this is nothing specific, but I think any long, you're gonna go to the well. Almost everyone is gonna go to the well. Almost no one comes into Unbound Well trained, except for, let's call it like Keegan. And maybe, there's like less than 10 people who are actually fit enough to race it. And you can say that with a straight face.

For everybody else, it's like, we're doing our best to make this like a reasonable stretch for my body. And so I think the temptation there is to get in sort of a, I need to finish up my postdoc and stop taking on debt and like see how my PhD thing where people are cramming. But that's a terrible idea because you need physical bandwidth and freshness, like a good TSB to come into it. Because one thing that prevents you from really,

showing what you can from a performance perspective is just that you're too buried and you like you don't have you haven't like built all of this bandwidth and layers so that you can really you know take the dagger and just stick it in your kidney and turn it around it if you're if you come into if you come in too tired like you might like you might finish but you're not gonna you're probably not gonna leave feeling like

Yeah, that was like the best I could do or you probably be disappointed. Like I train this much and this is all I could put out that day. It's like, well, usually when athletes think I'm not fit enough, it's not that they're not fit enough. It's just, they're too tired because they were trying to cram it in too late. So I think all like most important train. And I would say because athletes always round up like train 85 % of what's available for your time availability.

Don't cram it in. Like you'd be shocked at what your body can do if you just don't like pre -destroy yourself going into the race, I would say. So that's, yeah.

Dave S (39:37.34)
Yeah, so with that, I think that's a big thing is like, yeah, I always call it cramming for the test where, or panic training because all of a sudden somebody gets within a couple of weeks and their CTL isn't high or whatever. And so they, or they feel like they want to like train right up to the race because they want to keep their CTL high.

For me, I always feel like three to four weeks, like the fitness is pretty much in the bank. And so at that point, it's just about like resting up, but at the same time, like keeping things switched on and like, you know, like getting people excited, motivated, stuff like that, but not so rested that they feel flat or whatever. Do you have a window in your head where you feel like training is kind of like beyond, like for me, I always feel like within two to three weeks, you're not going to do a lot to improve fitness, but you can sure.

create a lot of fatigue and or screw yourself.

Matti (40:30.106)
Yeah. My general rule of thumb is if it's a, and it's a long gravel race, I stop. I generally in an ideal world, four weeks before I stopped trying to push the envelope. Like I'll have a push, but then I'm like, okay, no, like no more trying to overreach. and then granted I coaching most of people with more going on than just getting really fit for a bike race. But so exceptions, like there's exceptions out there for sure.

Dave S (40:54.3)
Yeah.

Matti (40:59.322)
But I think for most people that's, that's smarter. And you're, if you're like all training is a bit of like risk reward. I think that's a good general reference through weeks out, maybe be careful. Absolutely nothing to, I would call it like two and a half in for super something, super long. Absolutely not. And then, you know what we're doing. I mean,

There's no escaping just, not just like long stuff, but of course like kind of intensive aerobics. So lots of time and tempo, some pace change, but it's not just that. That's kind of a very like one lens way to think about it. I think it's also like having all the, having the setup that you're going to ride, like having your pack on.

If you can run aero bars, running them, like spending, if you're doing intervals like, and you have aero bars, doing them in the aero bars, choosing terrain that is similar as possible to what you're going to experience in the race. Nutrition, this is also getting good at eating. It doesn't just happen. It requires planning. So yeah, it's far more than pedaling.

But it's also a reasonable amount. So gravel simulations do have a place, but in my view, it's...

I see them as very high reward but also high risk. And so you need to be very attentive not to...

Matti (42:44.922)
Like you want to schedule it, you want to have a couple for sure, but you have to be very careful that athlete going into it is in a spot to receive it, so to speak, because it's very easy to tip people over the edge there without realizing it. Like you don't want to finish broken for sure, probably. It's not my favorite thing to do to athletes in training.

Dave S (43:10.201)
Yeah, I always feel like if we're talking about intervals or something like usually you want to finish like feeling like you could do one more. And so same thing with that. Like you don't want to be so wrecked. I think the risk with it is that like you do it, but then you can't train for three or four days because you're so wrecked. And so maybe a step back. And so I think you said it perfectly where it's like the goal of training is to be, to become more fit and that fitness happens in between the training. And I,

Matti (43:26.65)
Yes.

Dave S (43:37.977)
I think a lot of times people lose sight of that and it's like if your body's not in a place to receive that, like if you're just piling stress on top of stress on top of stress, then it becomes unproductive. It's like if you're going to do something like that, then you need to be prepared to take a few days off the following week to actually let your body absorb and adapt to that training and be productive.

Matti (44:00.378)
Yeah, and I would also caution people. All these gravel sims sound sorry to get suggestive here, Dave, but like they sound really sexy and they make a lot of sense. And they are like they're really cool. They're very hard. You finish it satisfying. You really empty yourself. However, you have to be careful not to try to prove to yourself in training that you're going to be good enough in the race because it just, as you said, it takes.

such a toll on your body, especially if you screw up fueling. Like if it's one thing to do something hard and it's like well supported nutritionally, often I find with athletes, they underestimate nutritional demands. And so for example, like don't eat enough the night before so they go in, they're already kind of behind. And then it's like, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna start out with, you know, 40 20s and then a hard block of.

10 minute block of sweet spot and then I'm gonna settle into tempo for, you know, the next three hours and then another eight, like 40, 20 and then hold whatever for, and it's gonna be six hours and it's 350 to 450 TSS, except that morning you weren't topped up, you weren't ready and you under -eight on the bike. So not only was that tiring enough where you just crushed yourself and you feel sort of cool after, but now you just gave yourself four or five days.

And I think the root of that comes down to a lack of trust in yourself and insecurity. And the problem is a lot of times people were in a great spot, but because they were insecure, they decked themselves. And so then they put themselves in a bad spot and they show up, thus confirming the story that they had in their head about, I didn't know if I was in a good spot. So you have to try to get it, like you have to try to pull out of that. Like your plane is diving. Like,

Dave S (45:45.718)
Right.

Matti (45:50.586)
You know, your plane was rising and then you just like made it dive for no reason and then you crash you're like see I was right I wasn't fit enough.

Dave S (45:56.053)
Self -fulfilling, yeah exactly. Yeah. So do you have any other mistakes or errors that you see athletes make when training for big long gravel events or just gravel in general?

Matti (45:59.289)
Yes. That's what I was kidding.

Matti (46:20.666)
I would say paying no attention to the mental side. You sort of talked about the sheep mentality initially and being surprised at the start when people go off and you think, wow, like everybody's going so hard and I'm not, I must be doing something wrong. I think, and this is a little ironic, but I think people find...

a lot, like many, I would call them like longer, harder gravel races. They sort of expect to feel good all the time, but that's really not what you signed up for, is it? Like it's not popular because people feel great. People call that like road racing or fondos. Like a fondo is probably the most, it's like the highest probability chance that you could feel good all the time, because you get breaks.

Dave S (47:12.883)
Yeah, stop at the aid station and have taquitos and margarita, chat people up. Yeah.

Matti (47:16.954)
Yeah. Yeah, that's ultimate vibe. But this isn't like that. Like, unbound, like, for example, like unbound, they call it unbound. What do you think is unbound there? Like, you are unbound. It's designed. You're, the race is designed to make you not want to live.

Dave S (47:32.339)
Hahaha.

your desire to live.

Matti (47:43.738)
it to make you detach from yourself, to have an ayahuasca experience. And so guess what? Like when you're going through that transformation, it's gonna be pretty uncomfortable and you're gonna be questioning yourself. And I just returned to my good buddy Joe Houdie show at the second aid station in 2021 when it was, I don't know, 95 degrees, 100 % humidity. And the entire Peloton was just scattered over 75 mile stretch, half of whom were under a tree dying of thirst.

Like he just told me, if you just keep on peddling and eating, you'll finish. And it was like, yeah, you know, to a, to a like, I don't know, not even triple digit IQ person at that moment that, that I felt that it made sense. And so you're going to have dark moments. And so a lot of people go in expecting it to just be.

like very pat, like very contrived, if I just do this, if I just do this. No, like you're gonna have dark moments. When that happens, have you visualized at all what that might be like? Do you have, and I mean, this is where you can get into sports psychology, of course, but there's just little things that you can do that help a lot. The dumbest one that I do, it's so stupid. I just say, you're not that bad.

Keep on going.

Dave S (49:14.258)
I love that, I love that. I'm definitely a big fan of mantras and like a lot of times I'll have athletes write it and like tape it to their top tube or like there's a company that makes custom stem caps and so you can like print a message on there or something and I think that's huge. It's like when you're in the thick of it, you're not thinking clearly. You can't do math, like everything. So just to have that reminder, whether you write it in Sharpie on your forearm or...

tape it on your top tube somewhere, but just that message that reminds you, you know, your past self talking to your present self about you're not that bad or whatever you come up with, you know, can certainly help in those moments.

Matti (49:53.178)
Yes.

Matti (49:58.618)
Yeah. and speaking to that, you just reminded me of something else. Also just in your general preparation or like logistically on some of these longer, harder races, go going in, like assume that you're going to be less together, less focused and you won't remember. So you want to make everything like as dead obvious to your future self as possible. I'm meaning like,

If you get a flat, like your little, what's it called? The plug, like the Dina plug stuff. Shouldn't be buried in your backpack. It shouldn't be hidden. It should be in a place that's like three seconds away from accessing and right there. Like everything should be very clear. So just imagine yourself, but like a much dumber version. Could this person, could this person navigate the situation?

Dave S (50:35.023)
Yeah.

Dave S (50:49.808)
Yeah.

Matti (50:56.089)
because I think a lot of people just go in so Summer Child, Pollyannish, Doei Eye, just like, yeah, like I'll remember that I have this one thing back over here. I'll do this, I can like do trig at the aid station. It's like, there'll be no trig. There won't even be addition.

Dave S (51:10.287)
Yeah.

Matti (51:13.753)
You're not, you're not, you're gonna have zero room for that mentally. So make it as simple as possible. Don't give yourself problems to solve. Like, give yourself an option and make the option with like lights on it.

Dave S (51:26.766)
Yeah, I love that. And it's absolutely true. I mean, you think about like getting a puncture that won't seal or something and then digging around in your flat kit trying to find your plugs or, was it in my camelback or is it in my flat kit or, you know, yeah, you just have to remove all those barriers.

Matti (51:47.161)
Yeah. And I thought of one more that I think is pertinent, but like in your training rides, anything that you notice that is sort of like irksome or bothersome, because like granted, you're probably not going to do the full distance. You probably do, you know, like if it's very long, we'll call it like 50 to 60 % say. If you notice any discomfort in there.

whether it's your shoes, whether it's your bibs, whatever it might be. Okay, you should fix that because when you add another 100 miles onto that, that's not gonna become a mild discomfort. That's gonna become the only thing you think about and what you hate about your current experience. Like, I mean, I can't believe how many like bib companies I've called out because I'm just like.

Dave S (52:35.181)
Yeah.

Matti (52:43.865)
You know, I was between sizes or just like not thinking things through and then, you know, chafing or shoe sizes or what like just, cause just any, any of that sort of like fit stuff in which I had sort of felt a little bit before in training. And I was like, it's fine. I'm Maddie. I'm from Wisconsin. Like toaster was my, it was my bathtub toy. I'm fine. It's like, no.

Dave S (53:05.964)
You

Matti (53:11.545)
Why do that to yourself? You don't have to add. You're going to have enough discomfort in adversity.

Dave S (53:18.828)
Yeah, for sure. Do you have any other tips for people? This is going to come out pretty close to unbound. So do you have any tips for people that might be racing unbound for the first time or maybe it's their second time and they're trying to improve on their time or any long gravel race for that matter?

Matti (53:41.753)
Yeah, I think weed is illegal in Kansas, but if you can follow me, imagine that you have a big fat edible the night before and you take it and you don't get paranoid, you calm down.

You calm way down. And when you start the race, you remember your plan. Everything is very simple that any idiot could follow. And you ride within yourself and eat your face off. If you just do that, you're probably going to have a decent race. Don't... Yeah, everything else like all of the frothing about tire choice.

Dave S (54:25.803)
I think that's, yeah.

Matti (54:33.689)
making last minute decisions, getting all worked up, frenzied off the start, forgetting to eat, all of this other stuff like...

It's wasted. It's just wasted energy.

Dave S (54:47.37)
Yeah, I want to say in my one experience of doing Unbound, that start is insane. It's insane. And the first, like usually in a gravel race, like things settle down after like 30 to 60 minutes. And after two hours, I was still in a sea of people. Like groups hadn't formed for me yet. You know what I mean? So it's like, just to give you an idea of like, it's very easy to kind of like lose sight of what your plan was and get caught up. And so just...

Matti (54:55.545)
It's insane. Yeah.

Dave S (55:17.546)
Yeah, however you can remind yourself to stick to the plan and stay calm is going to be time well spent.

Matti (55:25.369)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave S (55:27.721)
Awesome, where can people find you?

Matti (55:32.088)
GravelGodCycling .com. Also, with the number of people prodding, I am starting to actually lightly post things on Instagram. Yeah. Dave, you can check out what I've done so far. It's GravelGodCycling on Instagram. Yeah.

Dave S (55:43.401)
Hahaha

Dave S (55:48.008)
lightly.

Dave S (55:55.177)
Awesome. I'll give that a follow.

Matti (55:58.68)
So I'm just having fun. Like I've decided Mondays are going to be, I'm going to take some of my favorite philosophers and pretend they said something about gravel racing that they didn't. So today was life without gravel would be a mistake. Nietzsche. Nietzsche did not say that.

Dave S (56:08.104)
Ha ha ha!

that's fantastic. I love it. Yeah. I'll

Dave S (56:25.128)
that's fantastic. Yeah, and I'll just add to that. Like, if you definitely should give Matty a follower, go read some of his stuff. He's definitely got a way with words, and so it's highly entertaining and educational.

Matti (56:39.352)
Have some fun.

Dave S (56:40.52)
Awesome man, thanks for your time. I enjoyed it and we'll do it again soon.

Matti (56:46.039)
Sounds great.