Fast Physiology with Dr. Phil: What Causes Cramps and How Can You Avoid them?

Summary
In this episode of Fast Physiology, Dr. Phil and Dave discuss muscle cramping. They differentiate between different types of cramps, focusing on muscle cramps. They explore the role of electrolytes in muscle cramping and the importance of sports-specific training to prevent cramps. They also discuss strategies for dealing with cramps during exercise, including the use of bitter or sour substances and light stretching. Additionally, they touch on breathing cramps and abdominal cramps related to nutrition. The main takeaways are the importance of sports-specific training, the limited role of electrolytes in cramping, and the need for simple nutrition during intense exercise.

Takeaways

• Sports-specific training is crucial to prevent muscle cramping.
• Electrolytes play a limited role in muscle cramping, and most athletes do not need to supplement with additional electrolytes.
• Dealing with cramps during exercise involves using bitter or sour substances and light stretching.
• Breathing cramps and abdominal cramps related to nutrition can be addressed through specific training and appropriate nutrition choices.

Transcript

Dave S (00:00.91)
Welcome back to the Training Babble podcast. I'm your host Dave Schell and today we are back for another episode of Fast Physiology with Dr. Phil. Phil, thanks for coming back.

Phil Batterson (00:09.05)
I think. 

Dave S (00:24.526)
You just gotta run with it, man, especially the Dr. Phil thing. Capitalize on that.

Dave S (00:32.75)
Yeah, so if you haven't been keeping up, if this is the first time tuning in, we are doing a series of podcasts titled Fast Physiology, where we do a semi deep dive into just one aspect of physiology. So far we've covered things like VO2 max, we've covered what's so special about zone two, we've covered anaerobic capacity and all the other names that it's known by. And today we're going to talk about cramping. So.

Phil Batterson (01:01.304)
Mm -hmm.

Dave S (01:02.741)
I think a good place to start to this is just first kind of a... Man, I can't think right now. But, separate it into two types of cramps, right? I think that, like, a lot of times people just say, I cramped, but it can be an abdominal cramp or it can be a muscle cramp. And I think today we're going to spend most time talking about muscle cramps. But just so that we know that there are two...

different types of cramps that could happen when you're exerting yourself.

Phil Batterson (01:34.997)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the differentiation is, uh, you know, it's good to make right. Because the muscle cramp, right. And for any of you have actually experienced a muscle cramp, it is not fun. Um, your muscle just goes into an involuntary spasm and it seems like the only way to relax it is to, you know, kind of put it in a stretch position or stop what you're doing or just screaming agony.

Um, you know, if it's one of those things where you go to stretch when you're in bed and you start cramping, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's one of the coping mechanisms. Whereas, um, you know, I'm sure a lot of us who, uh, potentially you like. When you first started getting into maybe running or mountain biking or something like that, you might get, you know, like cramps in your abs or your abdominal cramps. And that is a different.

You know, beast in and of itself, because it feels like no matter what you do, you can't breathe in effectively. And that is obviously going to happen a lot when you're exercising. So that can, that can be a, an annoyance, um, from a, you know, from a physiological perspective. Uh, I think that, you know, the, I think that the basis of cramping is probably similar in most cases, but.

Uh, yes, let's focus on muscle cramps because. Abdominal cramps are still like, like pulmonary and respiratory physiology is still a little bit outside of my area of expertise. So I'm not, you know, I have like ways of dealing with it, but I'm not a hundred percent sure if it's common practice, the way I deal with it.

Dave S (03:15.242)
Well, and I think, and we'll probably come back to this, but I think so we could even like separate abdominal cramps into two different types of cramps too, because I think one could be more like breathing muscle related.

And so I think the breathing muscle related one is still going to fall into what we're about to talk about. And then the GI related one is like a completely separate thing, but we'll touch on that as well. So first off, I think the thing we need to touch on or where we need to start here is I have a lot of athletes, or even if you hear athletes over talking, anytime they say they cramped, almost every time they say, I need more electrolytes.

Phil Batterson (03:30.288)
Oof, yeah.

Dave S (04:00.201)
or I was dehydrated, or I need to take salt tabs, which kind of falls under the electrolytes too. So why don't you touch on that and what does the science say about electrolytes and muscle cramping?

Phil Batterson (04:14.733)
Yeah. So the basis of this physiology for electrolytes and muscle cramping is in theory sound. So the idea is, so every time your muscles contract, you are releasing a certain amount of sodium and you are.

taking in like you're essentially you're establishing electrochemical gradients and the way that we establish those electrochemical gradients is by sequestering our electrolytes inside and outside of a membrane. So our muscle cell is a membrane bound organism and or organ and we have a certain amount of electrolytes outside and a certain amount inside every time our

neuromuscular system, our brain signals for contraction to occur, we have to propagate an electrical signal down the muscle and deep into the muscle. And you do this by shifting that electrochemical balance. Um, and the idea of cramping, I think started to arise from this idea that maybe we aren't able to reestablish.

that electrochemical gradient. So when we do signal from our brain for the muscle to contract, we actually don't have enough of that change to actually get the muscle to, uh, you know, contract adequately, or in a sense it, it, it over contracts. And that's really like, uh, the over contraction is really what we're feeling when the muscle is actually cramping. Um,

From a hydration and an electrolyte perspective, it's a lot more of a gray area versus black and white. Oh, yep, you didn't have enough electrolytes, therefore you cramped. There's some studies, I believe, because I read up on this a few months ago, so I'm a little...

Phil Batterson (06:32.028)
a little hazy on the, on the actual details, but to some extent, there are some studies that do show that, uh, dehydration. So loss of water. And then with that loss of water, probably a loss of electrolytes and electrolyte imbalances more at the muscle muscle tissue could be an explaining factor in the cause of muscle cramps on the flip side of things. There's also other studies who do a really good job of controlling.

you know, the electrochemical gradient and other things like that. And it doesn't seem like a electrolyte imbalance or dehydration is actually the, the, the foremost cause of cramping. So it could be if you are somebody who just drinks a ton of water all the time, you eat a really low sodium diet, you, you know, are a heavy sweater in terms of losing a lot of salt, then absolutely.

You could be one of the people who might benefit for or from more electrolytes. Um, I will say though, that the typical American diet is pretty heavily laden with sodium, um, into a lesser extent, potassium, magnesium, and, uh, what are the other ones? Can't remember now, but it's, it's essentially sodium, potassium, um,

Those are the two really, really big ones. And then there's a few other ones that will help you.

Dave S (08:07.305)
Yeah. And so you just brought up a good point and that's kind of been my feeling on it too, just based on things I've read and things I've listened to is that it's a very, very small portion of athletes who would benefit from supplementing salt or electrolytes that most people, as long as you're eating food with some salt and stuff like that, and then the nutrition products you have, many of them,

talking about scratch or precision hydration or now element, they have sodium in them. So as long as you're not drinking plain water and eating nothing but sugar with no salt in it, then it's not going to be an issue for most people. And I will say in my experience, both personally and then with my athletes, what seems to be the bigger culprit for cramping is pushing the muscle beyond the point they're conditioned to.

And so we'll, I use this example all the time, is with mountain biking, we do everything we can in the winter on the trainer to try to mimic the demands of mountain biking. So we're doing low cadence work and over geared work and trying to like really increase the torque and stuff like that. But then you get to your first mountain bike race.

Dave S (09:29.697)
communicated enough.

Phil Batterson (09:31.112)
Thank you.

Dave S (09:33.185)
Yeah, what are your...

Phil Batterson (09:37.194)
I think, right, if you can kind of eliminate, you know, the, well, I wasn't exercising in a super, super hot environment. I wasn't hypo -nutrimic. I think this is where the root of most cramping probably occurs, is kind of a lack of fitness.

or lack of specific fitness. I think that's really what it comes down to. Cause you could be super, super fit coming out of, you know, your, your indoor training, right? You've done a lot of zone two stuff. You've probably done a lot of high intensity via two max stuff. Um, first race of the season. Yeah. Maybe you didn't do as much specific work, right? Like what we were just talking about. And then from the perspective of, uh, you know, you're, you're then over -exerting your muscle and by over -exerting your muscle.

eventually something happens. And this is where like, this is, this is where we were just talking offline like this, this reductionist sort of science would say, Oh, um, you know, like we know the exact answer to it. The answer about cramping is that we don't know the answer yet because it's such a hard system to actually, uh, measure, especially in like that high of intensity, but it seems like something is happening where your muscle,

not prepared for the work that you are about to do or are doing and then as a protective mechanism to essentially stop it from you know blowing apart your muscle seizes up and doesn't allow you to continue to do the the contraction pattern that you're that you're doing and that's that's ultimately what happens with with pretty much everything that

Dave S (11:11.659)
Right.

Dave S (11:19.519)
Yes. Right.

Phil Batterson (11:26.08)
stops you from doing the activity that you're doing. So fatigue, right? You get tired, so you have to slow down. Cramping, you literally can't go anymore because your muscles are so tight, they don't want to contract anymore. It's a protective mechanism to essentially stop yourself from just like breaking yourself apart on the inside. It's a governor in a sense. And I'm not talking the central governor theory or anything like that, because that's a whole nother can of worms. But...

Dave S (11:49.343)
Okay, so based on that we would say that in order to avoid cramping,

Phil Batterson (11:54.84)
I'm just talking about, you know, typically what we're talking about here is that cramping is a rate, is a self -limiting step that makes it so you don't then further destroy the system beyond irreparable repair in a sense.

Dave S (12:17.087)
You need to really try to be as specific as possible and try to mimic the demands of the race so that you can condition the muscle for those demands. Now you're in the race, you have cramped, unfortunately you didn't, you hadn't listened to this podcast yet. You didn't know to do that. And so what do we do once we cramp? And for me, it's like, it happens on a climb and it's like, like you said, you essentially can't pedal anymore. You know, you have to like get off the bike because your muscle just.

Phil Batterson (12:23.958)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Phil Batterson (12:32.92)
Hehehehe

Dave S (12:45.727)
won't work anymore or it feels like it's about to snap.

Phil Batterson (12:48.952)
Yep. Yeah. Um, what's worked for me in the past is, uh, eating a dill pickle or something very, very like bitter and acidic, or like they taking in like a mustard packet and you, you don't actually have to ingest like the pickle or the mustard. If you don't want to, you just got to keep it in your mouth because there's something actually, and this is, this is something that's super interesting. There's something in your olfactory.

Dave S (13:00.951)
Yep. Yeah.

Phil Batterson (13:17.88)
olfactory area. So your nose, your, your taste buds, other things like that, that actually will act as like an override mechanism to reset whatever is happening. So, you know, some level of neurological, uh, reset that will allow you then to have that muscle be relaxed. However, I will say that is a bandaid on a, uh, you're in a shitty situation sort of deal. Um, I've had in.

Dave S (13:40.759)
Right, right. Yeah.

Phil Batterson (13:44.888)
I've had tons of experience with this. So I used to do races. I was living in Colorado Springs and then I'd go up to Breckenridge to do like mountain trail races and Spartan races and other things like that. And like time and time and time again, I would, you know, be 12 miles into a 15 mile race. And then all of a sudden, both of my hamstrings cramped up, can't really run, can't do those sorts of things. And it was like, the mustard would help for about five minutes. And then if I kept running at the same pace that I wanted to run at, cramp up again. Um,

Dave S (14:11.211)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (14:14.84)
And the only thing that could really help is stretching. And I think one of, so I think we do know that one of the things that is happening is that your, uh, muscle spindle fibers. So there's these things that are embedded in your muscles that actually will limit you from over stretching the muscle or over contracting the muscle. And those seem to.

Dave S (14:39.039)
Right.

Phil Batterson (14:43.272)
You know be overactive in response to or during a cramp So by stretch this is why stretching your muscle can actually help it because you're teaching the spindle that it's it's okay for this muscle to be elongated So that's why it that's why stretching Allows for a little bit more of that like instant relief, but again, it's it's not it's still a band -aid on on a situation That's just gonna be bad

Dave S (15:09.519)
Well, and I'll say too, if I recall correctly, maybe this has changed. I mean, this is from like 10 years ago, but there's also, so there's a muscle spindle and then there's a Golgi tendon organ. And if I recall, there were studies, so like you said, you stretch it, it like gives a signal and it like tells the muscle to relax. But then like one of the studies I've read, they were like having NFL players like do the vertical jump.

And it's almost like their muscles were like air quotes shut off for like 60 minutes afterwards. So it's like, yes, it will relax, but then your performance might decrease too, because that muscle is not really firing optimally past that point, you know.

Phil Batterson (15:51.266)
Yeah. Yeah. That there's certainly potential for that. And I can't remember the exact mechanisms behind how the Golgi tendon organ works versus how the muscle spindle works. Um, because the, the Golgi tendon organ is embedded in your tendons. So it's essentially a fail safe to say, Oh, the tendons getting too much stretch. So then in turn, it has a tendency, I think, to relax the muscle because that would then allow the tendon to not be pulled as much.

Dave S (16:06.891)
Right.

Phil Batterson (16:21.176)
And then I think on the flip side, the muscle spindle is like, um, Oh, we're, we're experiencing too much stretch and too much force. So then we just make it so everything can't. So, you know, so then we just kind of bring everything close together. So yeah, it's, it's really complicated. The, the neurological system is, is really interesting. And again, it was not a motor control was not my, uh, forte in my PhD. Um, but.

Dave S (16:36.799)
Right.

Dave S (16:50.751)
Back to school.

Phil Batterson (16:51.16)
What we can say, what we can say right is we can say, okay, well, specific work right is going to be kind of the best way to protect yourself from the potential of cramping. You also have to make sure you have adequate hydration. That doesn't mean being like, oh, I'm going to chug three gallons of just water before my race. It means having adequate electrolyte intake, having...

adequate like fuel and liquid intake as well. And then acutely to deal with cramps is like it's essentially like you're probably again, you're not going to just get rid of them. It's not going to be one of those things you get to mile 20 in a marathon and start cramping up. And then you take a second stretch and do this and then it's all better. It's like okay.

my mustard packet. You don't have to, you don't have to actually swallow it. You just have to swish it around in your mouth because that's going to have some level of reset on your, uh, your neurological system, um, that signaling to your muscles. Then it doesn't have to be mustard. It just has to be something super bitter or super sour. So like super something, um, and

Dave S (18:01.151)
Yeah, and there's some companies that have products out there too that if you wanted to spend the money and like one uses like it's called hot shot or something and it's like capsaicin or something. But like you said, it's really about interrupting that signal. But yeah, I think like Chinese mustard packet is way cheaper than, you know.

Phil Batterson (18:09.08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Phil Batterson (18:17.944)
Yeah, absolutely. That's the, uh, that's the, that's the true cramp reliever. Um, I think people just don't like mustard because it is super bitter, which is exactly why, you know, it helps to reset the, uh, that signaling cascade and then, and then like very, very light stretching. So like typically, you know, like say, for example, if you've ever gotten cramps when you're like sleeping or something like that, the first thing you do, right, is like your legs are probably bent is like you try to straighten your legs out. And again, that's too.

try to alleviate the, um, that contraction that's trying to occur. Um, so yeah, a few different things. I really think the biggest thing that, you know, you can, you can come away with this is like, you have to do adequate sports specific training in order to mitigate the risk of cramps. If you're going to be exercising in a very, very hot, humid environment, like in Kona, uh, if you're doing Ironman world championships again,

Dave S (19:06.775)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (19:17.976)
a little bit extra fuel nutrition, but sports specific training, train yourself in the heat at the intensities that you're going to be doing. Because again, your, your body adapts to the stresses that you put onto it. So yeah, that's, that's my biggest takeaway.

Dave S (19:23.967)
Yeah.

Dave S (19:36.163)
Yeah, I think that's good. And then we're coming up on time here, but let's touch on these other two cramps as well before we go. So we also talked about like breathing cramps. And so like in my experience that typically happens. So let's say you you're coming out of your transition period or your off season and you go out and you start or especially newer athletes, people that are new to running or new to.

doing a little bit harder workouts, it's like those muscles that help. Same thing with the legs, right? It's like not conditioned enough. And so it's like you need to like work up and condition those muscles to be able to handle that stress, whether it's breathing harder or breathing for longer durations, things like that. And so, um, yeah, just practice time and time at the at the activity that of your choice. And I cannot talk today.

Phil Batterson (20:31.384)
Yeah. Yeah. For me, for me, it especially happens more when I'm running. Um, and that could also be like a, uh, uh, a core strength issue. So if your core is not strong enough, then you know, moving in those weird ways again, your muscles aren't prepared for it. So, you know, you might run into, uh, cramping issues. I also will say that, you know, like if you go from your base training season and you only do easy stuff,

Dave S (20:34.527)
Right.

Phil Batterson (21:01.88)
The first few times you start to get that breathing rate up, you actually have to contract muscles in order to breathe faster and harder. So your muscles then will have a tendency, your breathing muscles will have a tendency to then cramp. So there's that as well. And something that my cross -country coaches would say is try to over breathe in a sense. So take really deep breaths in and then forcefully blow all the breaths out. And I don't...

Dave S (21:10.859)
All right.

Dave S (21:19.999)
Hmm.

Phil Batterson (21:31.64)
I really don't know the explanation for why that helped, but it seemed to help me because I would get cramps when I was like, you know, running cross country and stuff like that. But but yeah, again, it's it's you want to get your body ready for that specific work that you're going to be doing. So if you're going to be hitting pretty high breathing rates, then you're going to want to simulate those really high breathing rates to some extent in the offseason before you actually go into your races.

Dave S (21:35.743)
Yeah. And then our last kind of abdominal cramp is more nutrition related.

Phil Batterson (22:05.688)
Mm -hmm.

Dave S (22:05.759)
And so in my experience, it tends to happen when people maybe are trying to eat something a little bit more complex or a little bit more solid, but then are either exercising in the heat or doing intense exercise. And so explain to us why does that happen? So why, when there's stuff sitting in your gut and you're working hard or in the heat, what happens there?

Phil Batterson (22:28.792)
Yeah, well I think, I don't think it's actually like a cramping of, you know, for example, like your abdominal muscles or those sort of things. I think it's actually a response from your stomach and your intestines that something is going on, right? You know, like really bad stomach cramps, right? Your stomach is like, oh my gosh, what do you do to me? I don't have enough blood to digest this.

Dave S (22:47.663)
Right.

Dave S (22:53.871)
Exactly. Yeah.

Phil Batterson (22:55.384)
So, so I think that's what it is. And again, this is kind of, it's, we're, we're saying the same thing over and over here, but it's sport specific training. If you're going to be in taking 90 grams of carbohydrates during your race or want to do that, you have to build up to it. Um, and for me, when I do, I find that, you know, really easily digestible carbohydrate sources, like, you know, just like, like drink mixes and stuff like that. Would that have, um,

Dave S (22:58.687)
you

Phil Batterson (23:25.592)
Generally one gram of glucose 2 .5 grams of fructose Really? Sit well in my stomach up to about 90 grams, but when I was first starting 60 grams was kind of the max And this is like leading up to the to the workout and during the workout as well So what I found is that eating a lot of more a lot more simple carbohydrate before enduring Would help my stomach I? I got my hands on

this nutritional or this, this, uh, fueling packet that was like one gram of glucose to 0 .8 grams of fructose because they were like, Oh, well, this study showed that this is the most optimal for people who are taking in 120. So I took one of those stomach immediately felt awful because I think, I think my body just isn't good at or used to absorbing that much fructose. So.

Dave S (24:15.455)
Oh, interesting.

Phil Batterson (24:23.288)
Um, and, and the real issues, the gastrointestinal issues occur when, uh, you're in taking so much carbohydrate that that starts to get into the small intestine and then the large intestine because the bacteria in both of those areas, especially the large intestine absolutely love, uh, carbohydrate and simple sugars. And they love it so much that when they eat it, they ferment it and then they start to expel gas.

Dave S (24:50.431)
Fun.

Phil Batterson (24:51.096)
And then you start to expel gas and that, that increasing gas, I think is, is what really makes a lot of us uncomfortable. Right. Um, so, so again, it's sport specific training in order to try to get your body used to it. Um, this is why you should mess around with, with trying different nutritional, uh, interventions and other things like that, leading up to your race and practicing it in the off season.

especially in the specific season, because your body's ability to uptake carbohydrates and stuff like that might be different depending if you're like you were saying, exercising in a hot, humid environment, in a cold environment, exercising at higher intensities can also kind of mess with blood flow to the intestines versus the skin and the muscle. So, I think what it comes down to is just you have to be specific about what you're doing in order to avoid cramping in all areas.

Dave S (25:47.241)
I just want to add on to what you were saying too about the simple stuff, like easily digestible. And I think that happens a lot of times. And so I see two scenarios where this happens. One is that let's say an athlete can't exercise until the evening. And so they're having dinner and then an hour or two later, they're trying to hop on the bike and do a really hard workout. And so that's their dinner still sitting in their stomach or in their intestines or whatever. And then.

Phil Batterson (26:11.032)
Hmm.

Dave S (26:16.265)
blood flow goes to their skin and their working muscles and everything kind of shuts down and they cramp up. And so my kind of rule of thumb there is the closer you get to your workout, the more simple and easily digestible it should be. So, so my rule of thumb is like three to four hours out can be like real food, but then as you're getting within that two hour window, it just has to get more and more simple. Um, the other situation is for really long races. I've heard athletes that

they feel hungry and so they want something more substantial than gels and stuff like that. And they want to kind of like fill that pit in their stomach. And so my advice to those athletes a lot of times is like, especially using a gravel race as an example is the first one to two hours might be really intense. And so start simple when energy demand is high, like liquid, like liquid calories, gels, stuff like that. And then once you're getting past that, like four and five hour mark, then you can s -

switch to something a little bit more solid because the intensity is lower and that's probably when you're starting to feel hungry anyway.

Phil Batterson (27:19.8)
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Um, the lower intensity is exactly where like more of that solid food can start to come in. And I mean, like things like bananas and stuff like that, right? Like, like that's, that's still fairly simple, like white bread, like maybe bread with a little bit of peanut butter. But again, it's like, you want to avoid it unless you've practiced that, you know, you kind of want to avoid that sort of stuff. I mean, even Courtney do Walter.

Dave S (27:30.705)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (27:46.968)
you know, she's like, yeah, I eat quesadillas and all this other stuff. And you know, it's like, or you see a lot of people, like ultra runners eating like sushi and stuff, right, because of the rice and the seaweed and all that. But that's all very simple, right? They're not, they're not like down in like a steak, for example, like that's not the real food that you're going to get, you know, out on the out on the course.

Dave S (27:50.119)
Thank you.

Dave S (27:56.041)
Well, I was gonna bring that up. I paced a friend. Yeah.

Dave S (28:09.801)
Well, so I paced a friend for the Moab 240 and it was like two in the morning and they were making cheeseburgers. Like when we got to the aid station, they're making cheeseburgers. But the intensity is so low for 240 miles that it's like you, and you need it, you know, but it's like, so it's completely different. But yeah, so I think like if we were to create a diagram or a chart, it's like as intensity goes up and the duration is shorter, simple.

Phil Batterson (28:13.944)
Mm -hmm.

Phil Batterson (28:21.592)
Right, right, right.

Phil Batterson (28:25.56)
Yeah.

Dave S (28:37.833)
as the intensity goes down and the duration's longer, can be a little bit more complex. Cool. So what are your takeaways for cramping?

Phil Batterson (28:38.008)
Mm -hmm.

Phil Batterson (28:47.8)
Yeah, I think I've said this and I'll just keep saying it right. It's sports specificity. So whether, whether that's, you know, you get breathing cramps, it's breathing at the breathing frequencies that you're going to be racing at, whether it's stomach cramps, it's eating and training your gut to uptake and utilize the food that you're going to be intaking on race day. Or if it's muscle cramps, it's, uh, simulating the race as much as you possibly can. So your muscles feel what it's like to do that intensity for that duration.

as closely as possible so your race isn't the first practice day that you have with it.

Dave S (29:21.188)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think my two takeaways here are one, it might be electrolyzed, but chances are it's not. And two,

Just think about the intensity and like the more intense it is, the more simple it has to be as far as nutrition goes. Yeah.

Phil Batterson (29:41.112)
Mm -hmm, in terms of nutrition. Yep. Yeah, I agree.

Dave S (29:46.468)
Cool, well, where can they find you at, Phil?

Phil Batterson (29:49.784)
You guys can always find me at criticalo2 on Instagram. I'm happy to answer any and all questions that you have regarding this topic or any other physiology topic that Dave and I talk about, either on this podcast or on my podcast. You can also, if you haven't, you know, came over from my podcast or if you're just learning about this, I have a podcast called critical oxygen. And Dave and I go back and forth on that. And the whole goal of that is just to give you guys, you know, kind of the scientific tools.

and the ability to translate the science into coaching and athletic practices so you can build better athletes.

Dave S (30:26.372)
And you can find me at at Kaizen or Kaizen endurance on Instagram same thing if you have any questions Just DM me or put it in the comments below Thanks again for your time Phil until next time