Top Training Mistakes, and how to avoid them, with Dr. Phil

Summary
In this episode, Dave and Dr. Phil discuss the top training mistakes that athletes make. They emphasize the importance of focusing on the fundamentals of training, such as consistency, specificity, and progression, rather than chasing the latest trends or hyper-optimizing every aspect of their training. They also highlight the significance of proper nutrition, recovery, and avoiding drastic changes on race day. The key takeaways include the need to prioritize the big things that will have the most impact on training, the importance of allowing for adequate recovery and rest, and the dangers of hyper-optimization and neglecting the fundamentals.

Takeaways

• Focus on the big things that will have the most impact on your training.
• Prioritize consistency, specificity, and progression in your training.
• Pay attention to proper nutrition and recovery to support your training.
• Avoid making drastic changes to your routine on race day.
• Beware of hyper-optimization and neglecting the fundamentals of training.

Transcript

Dave S (00:00.814)
Welcome back to another Training Babble podcast. We are back with Dr. Phil for another fast physiology. How are you doing?

Phil Batterson (00:07.538)
Good man, thanks for having me back.

Dave S (00:10.765)
So if you're not up to speed yet, Phil and I go back and forth on our respective podcasts. Phil has the Critical Oxygen podcast. I have Training Babble. And each week, we alternate focusing on one aspect of physiology or training and try to keep it fairly short. And so this week, we are talking about the top training mistakes. And I want to put a number on it, but I think that we're just going to.

end up going down a rabbit hole here, so I'm not going to put a number on it. Exactly. Exactly. And I like not to be a, not to put too much of a negative spin on this, but I do think there are things that as a coach, I see come up over and over and over again. And I'm sure you see them too. you do a lot of, ask me any things on Instagram and get questions from people. And so, yeah, I think we can provide a pretty good.

Phil Batterson (00:41.586)
It's just going to be 20 minutes of us rattling off training mistakes that people make, right?

Dave S (01:09.165)
perspective on this on maybe what people are focusing on that they shouldn't be focusing on.

Phil Batterson (01:16.497)
Yeah, and hopefully we'll be able to provide some alternatives to the mistakes that you're making. Because it's one thing to point out all the issues with what you're doing. It's another thing, and this is what good coaches are for, to point out, you know, this is what you may be doing wrong. Here's how you can fix it instead.

Dave S (01:24.908)
Yeah, exactly.

Dave S (01:34.796)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point there. Yeah, so I guess just to kick this off, why don't you start, when you're answering your Ask Me Anythings, is there one thing that you see come up over and over again that makes you crazy?

Phil Batterson (01:55.376)
It's not something that makes me crazy, but it's just the lack of focus on the big things that are going to do the most for your training. And what I mean by that is instead of focusing on the Norwegian method, for example, I get questions about that all the time. How about you focus on staying consistent?

developing specificity and developing progression. It's a lot more boring than chasing that kind of like, you know, new fancy thing that's out there. But yeah, yeah, exactly. Like stop chasing the flavor of the month and just do the thing that's going to allow you to be consistent, specific, and progressive. And I think, you know, people look around and they see,

Dave S (02:33.195)
Yeah, I call that the flavor of the moment.

Dave S (02:40.075)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (02:53.01)
other people having success in whatever they're doing, right? And they say, well, what is that individual doing? Because obviously what they're doing is is give garnering that level of success. And then something crazy comes out like double lactate threshold days with, you know, x, y, and z. And that's just that's just the very small amount of context you get, these guys are doing what you know, two times a week, double lactate threshold days. And this is the reason why they are good now.

It's like, I started looking into the Norwegian method, because I was asked to do a podcast about it. And there's like a ton of different tenets and other things like that that actually go into this quote unquote Norwegian method. And it's like, okay, well, we can't just cherry pick one thing out of that and be like, this is gonna be the golden bullet that's gonna help us. Because what it comes down to for the Norwegian method is they are staying consistent.

Dave S (03:46.888)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (03:52.466)
Like they're doing a shitload of mileage and volume. They are being very specific to the races that they're doing. So the runners, right? The Ingebrigtsen brothers are doing, you know, like they're doing those double threshold days to accumulate volume at the race intensity that they're actually going to be racing, you know, like the 1500 to the 5k. and they're progressing it over time. So ideally, you know, they're, they're expanding the amount of volume that they can accumulate at that specific race pace. So.

within the context of their training, they're following those things. But when you take this out of context and you say, I need to be doing double lactate threshold days because that's gonna be, it make me better. It's like, no, if you're only training five days a week with 20 miles per week, it doesn't make sense for you to go and do double threshold days. We need to build that volume up. We need to build it up slowly enough that you can still stay like consistent. And then,

we need to be doing practice that is specific to your race. So if you're not racing a 1500 to a 5K or maybe a 10K, it doesn't make sense for us to do those double lactate threshold days, at least depending on the part of the season. It might make more sense for us to do longer tempo and threshold workouts. If you're doing, you know, like a half marathon, a marathon, you know, a half Ironman, an Ironman, right? So.

That's the number one biggest mistake. And I think, you know, like the takeaways here are that you need to train to the context of who you are, not to who somebody else is that is having success. It's great to get motivation and energy from them. Be like, they're crushing it. I want to crush it too. But then be realistic with yourself and say, you know, what is actually realistic for me to build?

my volume to build my intensity up and what things do I need to specifically focus on.

Dave S (05:49.955)
Yeah, and I'll just add to that that I think a lot of times what people miss, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday actually, is I think about that motivational poster with the iceberg and it shows like the tip of the iceberg and it's like what everybody sees and then what's below it is like what brings that peak above the surface, right? And so it's like people see the success and they're like, these guys are having success. What are they doing right now? Okay, that must be.

Phil Batterson (06:09.777)
Mm -hmm.

Dave S (06:19.266)
they don't see the years of work that went into that. And on top of that, elite athletes are trying to eke out every bit of improvement they can. And so they've already maxed out volume, consistency, progression, and everything else. So they're looking for the ways. And like the research shows us that once you get to a certain point, more experienced athletes need more intensity, need more like bigger stimuli.

Phil Batterson (06:22.609)
Mm -hmm.

Dave S (06:48.771)
to get adaptation. But again, they've already like, taken care of all the low hanging fruit and like they're out of other options versus most athletes.

Phil Batterson (07:00.626)
Mm -hmm.

Yup, yeah, and if you aren't, you know, if you're not optimizing your nutrition, your recovery, your consistency first and foremost, then you're not gonna set yourself up to be able to adapt, you know, to these, you know, flavor of the month, you know, style workouts and stuff like that. If anything, you're just gonna, it's gonna result in you getting sick or tired or burnt out. And then, you know, there goes your consistency.

And consistency is the absolute key to maintaining success and getting better within any endurance training plan.

Dave S (07:30.018)
Right.

Dave S (07:39.426)
Yeah, and I'll just finish up on this one by mentioning like a lot of times with athletes I take them on and usually I go and review their training and they're usually deficient or the low hanging fruit is in one area. It's like frequency, consistency or intensity. Like, and typically it's too much intensity. And so it's usually adjusting those things, right? And I think for most people just like taking a look at those things is going to have the bigger impact.

Phil Batterson (07:58.129)
Yep.

Dave S (08:08.29)
on their things. And so this leads into one of my big mistakes is not taking enough recovery or rest to actually allow that adaptation to occur. And this is something, I don't know if you use Training Peaks, but in Training Peaks, there's a performance management chart and they have a blue line that they call fitness, which is used to be chronic training load. And really what it's looking at is how much have you been training over the last?

six weeks. And so everybody wants, once you call it fitness, everybody wants that line to keep going up and keep going up and keep going up. But it's like the fitness doesn't happen in those bouts of stress. It happens in between the stress. And so I just see that, especially if people have jobs, have families, have all these other things that they're burning the candle at both ends. And so it's just like, we did a...

another podcast on stress and it's like, it's just stress on stress on stress. And so there's never this like down period that allows their body to kind of like recover and adapt to that stress and become more resilient. And so then your training just becomes kind of unproductive and like banging your head into the wall.

Phil Batterson (09:20.66)
Yeah, it's just, you're just spinning your wheels and you're not really going anywhere. And I've run into this issue with myself personally, and it's really easy to kind of want to fall into this trap of like, you know, alternating hard, easy, hard, easy, hard, easy.

just because it's nice, right? You know, sort of from a cycle from a, from a, just a plan perspective, you're like, okay, I got a hard day, then easy day, then a hard day, then an easy day. But it, it really comes down to, I think probably for the most part, you know, most people need at least two days between a hard, a hard bout, because the goal for your hard workout should be able to come back and like crush it.

the next time. Like that's like, you need to make your hard workouts hard. And I think too, you know, like we also then need to emphasize the recovery aspect of things. The days that you're not doing your hard workouts are going to be the days where you need to listen to your body. Yeah, go easier. Did you say CrossFit? Yeah, yeah.

Dave S (10:04.288)
Right.

Dave S (10:22.688)
to CrossFit. No, go to CrossFit. Yeah, just pile more stuff on.

Phil Batterson (10:30.131)
Yeah, or just do CrossFit every single day and then wind up like me with a messed up shoulder, a messed up back, you know, like chronic fatigue, all this other stuff. It's like...

Dave S (10:36.531)
I say that because I see that a lot of times where people on their recovery days end up going and doing like hot yoga and like all this stuff that just ends up being more stress. Like it just not never truly a recovery day. And it's like, I think very motivated athletes have a hard time just like relaxing, you know.

Phil Batterson (10:50.803)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (10:55.829)
I think type A individuals have a tough time because a lot of the times it's kind of this no pain, no gain mentality or if I don't feel like it's hard then it's not rewarding in a sense and it's really tough to break that sort of mindset. I've been trying to do it and I keep falling back into these patterns of like, yeah, I...

want to go hard, easy, hard, easy, just because it looks nice. And I'm like, well, I probably could go, you know, something like hard, easy, easy, hard, easy, easy. And then, you know, that that would be pretty adequate. But for some reason, you know, I just don't. And it's it's I think the solution to that, again, is to be like, is to remind yourself on a day to day basis what it is you are trying to accomplish during a workout with.

Dave S (11:35.647)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (11:53.016)
And this is something that I think it's a little, where this idea of like, zone two always has to be at that cusp of zone two in order to get the most benefit out of it and other things like that. I think that in and of itself almost is an inappropriate mindset, because it's kind of like, well, if I have to be on that, you know, like.

Razor's edge of riding like the very very high end of it because if I'm not then I'm not getting any benefits saying no No matter what you do today. You're gonna get more benefits and if you just didn't do anything and What you need to do is you need to find a balance between facilitating recovery accumulating volume and Being able to come back and do your hard workouts hard. I this is the way I think of it is like if you're trying to sculpt

Dave S (12:25.022)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (12:47.32)
like a sculpture, right? Statue of David or something like that. You have a block of marble. Your high intensity days are where you're just taking out huge chunks of that marble. But the problem is, is that too much high intensity, or just too much intensity in general, like, because this could come from, you know, too much zone three as well. If you're a runner, if you're a cyclist, it's called sweet spot training, which I don't know if I necessarily agree with either. But if you take too big of chunks too often,

then you run the risk of cracking that marble and cracking that statue and having to start over. Where the zone two comes in is allowing for structural changes that are, you know, more minute, right? You know, you're, you're, you're chiseling in, you know, kind of the details of like the nose or the eye or like whatever it is. And, you know, obviously statues don't recover from things, but if they could then, you know, after two days of, you know, like making those like,

Dave S (13:22.203)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (13:46.68)
more minute details, you can go back to taking off big chunks. You know, so maybe you work on the torso now. So, that's the way that I think of zone two. And I think a lot of people would benefit from that because we do have a tendency to be like, well, higher intensity must be better, you know, up to the cap of zone two, as opposed to being like, well, as long as I'm within that range, I'm getting.

80 to 90 to 95 % of whatever benefit I would be getting if I was at the top of that range.

Dave S (14:17.434)
without the risk of overdoing it. Yeah. And I guess it's your turn to talk about another mistake, but I'll just mention real quick, maybe we can tag this on to what we were just discussing. I think another common mistake is thinking that intensity is a substitute for volume. So if I don't have much time to train, then any time I train, it should be really hard, or should be hard, you know? And I...

Phil Batterson (14:37.495)
Yes.

Dave S (14:46.01)
And this is what I would say with that. And I've like said this to athletes before, like I think there's, I think that's the difference between training and exercising. If all you want to do is get your sweat on and release endorphins and trying to be healthy and stuff like that, then yeah, go for it. Like go do your spin class and go to your body pump and all that other stuff. Like whatever makes you feel good and keeps you active, have at it. But if you're trying to enhance your performance at a specific event,

then you should be training with a purpose.

Phil Batterson (15:17.547)
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, I think. And again, this comes back to just knowing what the purpose of a workout is. You know, so, because I think if you can put into perspective the purpose of a workout, then you can change your mindset to be like, okay, well, you know, this isn't supposed to feel hard.

this is supposed to feel like it's like recovery and stuff like that. And I crushed the shit out of that workout, right? You can bring that mentality to an easy workout. It's just, you don't want to be rolling on the floor when you're done with it.

Dave S (15:41.914)
Yeah, exactly.

Dave S (15:49.657)
Yeah, exactly. So what's your next big mistake?

Phil Batterson (15:51.642)
yeah, so I, I think you mentioned something about nutrition, but I think to pair with that, I think what I see people making mistakes in is, is changing their nutritional strategies on race day. that I think is a huge, huge, huge mistake. when I have had the worst racing days,

I have made nutritional changes, like, you know, I'm just going to try to eat whatever I can. I'm going to just, you know, just like eat this different gel. I'm going to, you know, set up my morning differently, like all of these other things. And ultimately, like I I've been lucky enough because it hasn't resulted in like DNF because of, you know, stomach issues or anything like that. But a lot of people change things up on race day.

and then they wonder why, you know, they get to, if they're in a triathlon or something like that, or the latter portion of the race, their stomach starts to hurt so bad, or they cramp up really crazily, or, you know, other things like that, and then they have to drop out. So, so that I think is a huge mistake, is like, only take in the nutrition and hydration that you have practiced, and if for some reason it is suboptimal,

then yes, maybe your finish time is going to be slightly suboptimal, but at least you're going to get across that finish line and hopefully mitigate any issues that you could have taken on if you decided, I'm just gonna go from 60 grams of carbohydrates per hour to 120, because that's what everybody else is doing, right? So yeah, so I think it's the nutritional side of things.

Dave S (17:31.415)
Yeah, and I'll just kind of tack onto that. I think not only nutrition, but like one of the old adages is just like nothing new on race day. And so don't try a new chamois, don't try a new saddle, don't try new shoes, don't, you know, like.

Phil Batterson (17:41.402)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (17:46.649)
Don't don't mess with your bike fit. Yeah, exactly. Like don't go from wearing socks to not wearing socks. Like you're just setting yourself up for failure here. and I, from a psychological perspective, it's interesting to think about, right? Because it's like, okay, well you've done all this practice and all this training and.

Dave S (17:53.047)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (18:07.481)
Now you're going to be, because you read something on a blog, this is again, this is kind of chasing the flavor of the month, right? You know, you see somebody else doing something and you're like, Ooh, that's a good idea. I need to change it. It's like, no, no, no, that can wait till the next training block. Once we get out of this race, because I can guarantee you the potential for negatives is way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way higher than any potential for, you know, positives.

Dave S (18:13.079)
Yeah.

Dave S (18:21.751)
Right.

Dave S (18:33.527)
Yeah. I think the next mistake that I'll add on here is also on the nutrition front, but on the other side of it is not eating enough. I think there's such an emphasis, especially in cycling, to be light. And so, like, I think there can be a time to... If you can visibly see that you have weight to lose or, you know, you have some extra pounds or whatever, like...

Phil Batterson (18:48.056)
Yes.

Dave S (19:02.359)
There is a time to focus on that. And it's like, you know, you can like do it through diet and stuff like that. But I think there's such an emphasis and as people are starting to increase their volume, increase their intensity, they're also reducing their calories, trying to get light. And it just like, you need to feel the work you do. And it's like, it's so important. I think people like, and this will feed into the next one that we'll talk about is hyper optimization. But it's like people, we get to this thing with nutrition.

Phil Batterson (19:16.535)
Mm -hmm.

Phil Batterson (19:20.599)
Yep.

Dave S (19:32.855)
where we stop seeing food as food and we only see it as macronutrients. And I've run into this myself where it's like, I open the fridge and it's like, I can't eat that because it's this and I can't eat that because it's this. And it's like, so pretty soon you're like, well, what can I eat? Because nothing is the nutrients that I need to eat, you know, the macronutrients. And so yeah, I just think food is fuel. Fuel the work you do. If you're doing lots of work, you need to eat lots.

Phil Batterson (19:37.75)
Mm -hmm.

Phil Batterson (20:01.193)
Yeah, yeah, I was just listening to talking about the Norwegian Method, the Norwegian Method podcast with Olaf Alexander Buh. And I really like his approach to nutrition because the way that he talks about it, he says first and foremost, if you don't have energy on board, you can't grow. That's like, you know, first and foremost. And so,

Dave S (20:08.451)
Hahaha!

Phil Batterson (20:27.799)
you need to have enough energy available to your body in order to be able to grow and recover, in order to be able to feel those workouts that you're actually doing. And I think because people have made the connection that, these professionals are skinny and I can see all their muscles and all that sort of stuff. Therefore, if I lose weight, I will be better.

There was a beautiful study, and it wasn't a great study, but it was a beautiful study to demonstrate this point, where they took a bunch of CrossFit athletes and they looked for correlates of CrossFit performance. And you know what they found? The people who had the lowest body fat percentage did the best in CrossFit competitions. And their conclusions, and I wanted to put them on blast so bad, but their conclusions, and I am, I guess now,

Dave S (21:23.405)
I'm going to go.

Phil Batterson (21:26.135)
Their conclusions were the less body fat percent you have, the better off at CrossFit you're going to be. And I'm like, no, chances are the individuals who had the lowest body fat percentage, that was just a product of the fact that they could train so much and they were feeling enough that their body didn't carry excess body fat on it. So because if I was reading that, and I was reading it, and I thought to myself, well,

All I gotta do is get super skinny and then I'll be an amazing crossfitter. So like from that logic, it's so ass backwards that like we would then conclude that, the bodybuilders who are on stage for the Arnold, you know, for the Arnold Classic would be the best, should be the best crossfitters in the world, right? Because they have the lowest body fat percentage. It's like, and you're laughing because that's completely asinine, right? Like that conclusion is so dumb, but it's like,

Dave S (22:13.704)
Right.

Phil Batterson (22:24.822)
I think people have made that conclusion as well. They see these elite level athletes, they see how thin they are and they're like, I just need to look like them and then the performance will come as opposed to let's fuel the body and chase performance rather than the looks and your performance will be better. So therefore you will perform like therefore your race times will be better. And, you know, ultimately,

Yes, it does matter. Like, you know, like, like the like body composition does matter, but only to a certain extent. And if you're not fueling the body, then you're not providing the nutrients that, you know, you're going to need to repair the body, stay consistent, and race the best that you possibly can.

Dave S (23:08.654)
Right. Yeah, and I just want to add onto that. I think like one of the biggest things, one of the biggest mistakes in science is assuming causation from correlation. And so that kind of goes back to, we can say that with the Norwegian method too, right? Like we just talked about that. It's like assuming that these guys are fast, these are the workouts they're doing, therefore these are the workouts I need to do without the regard for the things that came before it and everything. And so very similar.

Phil Batterson (23:19.093)
But yeah.

Dave S (23:38.414)
So my last takeaway or my last mistake here, and we've done a podcast on this too, is hyper optimization. And we already spoke to it a little bit. It's...

looking for those marginal gains, chasing marginal gains before you've taken care of the fundamentals. And so, like you said, it's like, it's not sexy. Like one of the things I tell people all the time, like when all of a sudden they have success and it's like, just do the damn work. Like that's the secret. That's like in my 14 years of coaching, I've written, like that's the biggest secret I've found is just do the damn work. And it's the people that do the damn work.

day in and day out, week in and week out, that see the biggest improvements, not constantly chasing new things or like, you know, all those little things. So yeah, what do you have to add to that?

Phil Batterson (24:33.336)
Yeah, no, I agree. I think, you know, coming from myself trying to hyper optimize everything, you know, like, like, like, there's so many things that like, like, the reason why we can speak so well to this is because, you know, first and foremost, I did, I made all these mistakes, and I still make these mistakes, right? Like, I fall into this trap of like, like, for example,

Dave S (24:49.3)
Totally.

Phil Batterson (24:56.346)
the hyperoptimization thing where you're like, okay, now I need to manage all my calories and I need to make sure I'm not eating too much, because then I need to get better body composition. That would fall under hyperoptimization, right? As opposed to being like, I need to eat enough that I feel good and can come back and have better performance weekly going forward. And you don't need to count calories for that because, you know, like,

by eating more, you're going to facilitate the ability to do more exercise at higher intensity. So then you're going to be burning more calories. So it's this, it's this really actually positive cycle of being like, I can eat even more food and my performance gets even better. And then, you know, so on and so forth. You don't need to track all your calories and do all this sort of stuff. There are times where you should figure out, am I...

you know, grossly overeating or grossly under eating. And we're speaking, you know, to the, to the endurance training population, not the, not the general population who could probably use a little bit less food, in more movement. But then it also comes back to, you know, this idea of, like, I get questions about this all the time. Hey, you know, like, should I be doing one minute on one minute off for my VO2 max workouts or four minutes on and four minutes off for my VO2 max workouts? And I'm like,

Dave S (25:53.835)
Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Batterson (26:16.572)
It doesn't really matter. And we've had this argument a little bit, Dave, of like, well, I know that the cardiovascular system isn't going to be stimulated as much with the one by ones, but at the same time, it's like, you're still going to be doing something that is close to VO2 max speed. And...

Dave S (26:21.227)
Yeah.

Phil Batterson (26:38.684)
let's not get lost in the minute differences in terms of adaptation. You're gonna be all the way on this side of the adaptation curve as opposed to like easy zone to work, which is on the other side of it, right? So you're already going to be gaining most of the benefits and adaptations to that. And I think that's where people, again, they just get too sucked into, well,

my workout needs to be perfect or this needs to be perfect. And it's like, again, it comes down to the specific, like it's consistency, specificity and progression. And if you're not optimized, if you.

So here's where you should be optimizing your sleep. You should be getting enough sleep. You should be eating enough and then you should be training consistently. And if you do all three of those things, that's where you can start to be like, okay, you know, now I can kind of sprinkle in, you know, something else here and there, you know, to try to make it even a little bit better. But if you aren't doing those and laying the groundwork, then you can't, you're not going to gain any benefit from being like, well, I do 40 20s, not 30 30s, because those are better for my VO2 max.

Dave S (27:43.785)
Yeah, I like that. Do you have any other big mistakes that we haven't mentioned?

Phil Batterson (27:51.357)
none. I'm sure, I'm sure we'll come out with another podcast at some point, but none that I can think of off the top of my head. I think, you know, and we, we say this, I think on every single one of the fast physiology podcast episodes, but it's like focus on the things, the biggest things that are going to make you better. And for me, I always come back to consistency, specificity and progression. and then.

Dave S (27:55.562)
Yeah, exactly.

Phil Batterson (28:20.734)
from there, after you've really optimized and been able to develop those habits, then you can start to branch off and get better. But yeah, it's.

We talk about this sort of stuff because we don't want you guys to make the same mistakes we did. Or, you know, I don't, you know, I've been training for, for 15, 20 years and you know, it's like, well, if I knew all this stuff from day one, then, you know, I mean, who knows, perhaps I'd be a better athlete, but hopefully I can confer this knowledge and make you guys better athletes who are listening.

Dave S (28:56.904)
Yeah, no, and I agree. I feel like a big reason to hire a coach is that you can benefit from their experience, not just their experience, their personal experience in racing, but also their experience in having coached a lot of athletes and like the experience and wisdom of their mistakes so that you don't have to repeat those mistakes. Perfect. So where can people find you?

Phil Batterson (29:14.014)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Phil Batterson (29:19.583)
Yeah, as always, you guys can find me on Instagram at critical02 shoot me a DM. at this point, when this episode goes live, I probably will have an upcoming exercise physiology course. So if you're interested in signing up for the wait list for that, or just signing up for it, you can go to criticaloxygen .com and then look under education and then there should be some courses available. And it's, it's like I said, exercise physiology for, for athletes and coaches. so I think people who are listening,

any of us would be interested in that.

Dave S (29:51.111)
Fantastic. Awesome. Looking forward to the next one.

Phil Batterson (29:54.91)
Yep, thanks Dave.