Ken Kunken | Keeping Your Expectations High, Overcoming Barriers, & Dreaming of Things that Never Were

“Just because something hasn’t been done before, doesn’t mean you can’t do it now.” ~ Ken Kunken

In this episode of The Remarkable People Podcast, David hosts the inspirational Ken Kunken, who shares his journey of becoming a successful attorney despite being a quadriplegic. Ken talks about his life-altering injury during a college football game, his resilience in completing his engineering degree at Cornell University, and his eventual pursuit of a law degree. With support from his family and the drive to make a difference, Ken not only excelled in his career but also became a motivational speaker. He discusses overcoming physical and attitudinal barriers, the importance of maintaining high expectations, and his fulfilling personal life, including his marriage and fatherhood. Ken’s story is a testament to human perseverance and the power of a positive outlook.

SHOW NOTES: 

• Website: https://kenkunken.com/
• The Viscardi Center: https://viscardicenter.org/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ken.kunken
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ken.kunken/
• Get Ken’s Book “I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunken Story” on Amazon: https://a.co/d/ix5MHAm

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Enjoy more Remarkable Episodes, Inspiration, and Motivation at https://davidpasqualone.com/remarkable-people-podcast/ now!

Transcript

Ken Kunken | Keeping Your Expectations High, Overcoming Barriers, & Dreaming of Things that Never Were

David Pasqualone: Hello friend. Welcome to this week's episode of The Remarkable People Podcast, the Ken Kunken and story. If you are like me, you hate the word disabled and the reason why I hate the word disabled is it 'cause almost enables people. To make excuses and people are people, they have value, they have qualities.

God-given, they have abilities, and we don't want to be making excuses for one another or ourselves. Why we're not achieving or doing today's guest is the epitome. Of not quitting, of getting things done. He is motivating. He's encouraging, and he has a life story to back it up. So you're going to hear from Ken about how he became a quadriplegic in college, but how he didn't let that stop him from not only finishing his engineering degree, but then getting advanced degrees and then switching career paths again and [00:01:00] becoming an attorney and to become so qualified and proficient in his.

I don't want to say craft, but in his profession that he actually sat before the US Supreme Court and how he was able to get married, have children, and he's encouraging people to this day in his seventies. So whether you a loved one, someone you know casually has a disability or has a challenge in their life.

That they're down on that other people are telling them they can't do anything. Just give up. No. If God has you here, he has a plan for you and a purpose. And again, Ken exemplifies that. So you will be motivated, you'll be encouraged, and it'll give you a challenging. Um, outlook to have a good perspective in how to make the most of your life.

So at this time, not just enjoy, but I hope your life truly benefits from [00:02:00] Ken's story. Now 

Epic Voice Guy: The Remarkable People Podcast, check it out,

the Remarkable People Podcast. Listen, do Repeat for Life,

the Remarkable People Podcast.

David Pasqualone: Hey Ken, how are you 

Kenneth Kunken: today, brother? I'm doing great. Thank you, David. 

David Pasqualone: Man, it's been awesome getting to know you a little bit over the last couple months and then today we just had a talk where I rambled about politics, so I apologize. But, um, thank you for being here today. I just told our audience a little bit about you in the intro, but right outta your mouth.

If our listeners commit to sticking through this episode, what's something [00:03:00] you promise they'll get that they can apply to their life and have a better life by the end of the episode? 

Kenneth Kunken: David, I think they're going to hear a story that is very unique to experiences they've probably had in the past. I want them to keep in mind that it's so important to keep their expectations high for people, because a lot of times people set limited expectations for others as well as for themselves.

And I think as a result, it affects how people eventually perform because people's performance often rises or falls based upon what others expect of them, and I think it's so important to keep expectations high for yourselves as well as for others. 

David Pasqualone: I couldn't agree more. Lowering expectations in any part of life is a bad solution.

So ladies and gentlemen, Ken's going to talk to you about the proper frame of reference for what he just said. He's going to talk to you [00:04:00] about how he came to this belief, and then we're going to break it down to the practical steps of how you can apply this to your life so you can have a better life. Like our slogan says, listen, do repeat for life.

You are going to listen to Ken. You're going to be encouraged and entertained, but you're also going to be able to do it repeated each day so you have a better life in this world, but most importantly to your attorney to come. So in 60 seconds after the short affiliate break, we will be back with our friend Ken, and he's going to share his remarkable story with you.  

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David Pasqualone: All right, Ken, let's start off. Where did your journey begin? What was your upbringing? Life? Because everything that happens to us, good, bad, ugly, pretty and pretty ugly, [00:06:00] it makes us the humans we are today. So where did your life journey begin, Ken? 

Kenneth Kunken: All right.

Well, when you talk about my life journey, I, I guess the best place to start would be within days that I was born. I was born on July 15th, 1950 on Long Island in New York State. And 27 days after I was born, my mother Judy died. This was during the polio epidemic. It was certainly widespread and very widespread in our community.

And unfortunately, shortly after my birth, my mother contracted polio and died 27 days after I was born. 

David Pasqualone: Wow. Now that is such a short period. I mean, most women are still breastfeeding at that point, and you probably don't remember it, but once your mother passed away, I'm so sorry to hear that. Who cared for you?

Was it your father? Did you have an aunt? How, where did your, where did your caretaking go from there? 

Kenneth Kunken: [00:07:00] Well, I have a brother, Steve, who's two years older than I am. He unfortunately had polio as well at the time. Fortunately, his was a mild case that was confined to his leg, one leg, and he totally recovered.

But since we needed a lot of help, my father, brother, and I moved in with my father's parents, my paternal grandparents, they lived in limbo on Long Island, and my maternal grandparents, my mother's parents, basically visited every day to help with our care. So we spent the first few years of our lives living with my grandparents.

Then my father remarried when I was still four years old. It unfortunately was not a happy marriage and resulted in a lot of arguments and a messy divorce. Uh, but it did result in the birth of my sister Meryl, who's 10 years younger than I am. So we had, uh, [00:08:00] lived with my father's second wife for close to 10 years, and then after they became divorced, it was basically my father, brother and I living alone.

Um, and that's basically how we grew up. Yeah. 

David Pasqualone: And today, sadly, divorce is all too common, but I don't care who you are, you know, it's unhealthy for a home. And sadly at my family went through divorce, right. But back in your generation, divorce was extra. It was rare. It was not nearly as common. So I had a couple questions.

Do you feel, from what you know, did your father remarry more outta necessity? Like it was a good business relationship for both parties? Or did they actually, you know, fall in love and then fall outta love? What was the situation with them? 

Kenneth Kunken: You know, it was a very interesting situation. Um, my father, after the death of my mother, was left with two young children, my 2-year-old brother [00:09:00] and myself as a baby.

He met his second wife, whose name was Janice, who uh, had been widowed herself. And her first marriage ended in the death of her husband and the birth of two young children. And it seems to me that when they met, they felt they had so much in common here. They'd both lost their spouses and both had two young children.

So to them it seemed like a perfect match for them to get together. They had a lot in common, and while they were married, they conceived my sister. So at the time of their marriage, it seemed like the right thing for them to do, but it certainly did, didn't work out well. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, and, and in no way am I casting stones.

The reason why I ask is 'cause how we frame it. It hasn't been until recent years that marriage was quote unquote for love, right? And they're not talking about God as love, but the emotional love. And that's why so many [00:10:00] marriages fail, where throughout history. A lot of marriages were contractual. It was like, it made sense.

It was, Hey, this is good for both families. It wasn't just about squishy emotions, but what we see as children is what we carry into our future. So that's why I was, I was hitting on that now. So as we go into your story to see if it, it parallels or effects. So now you're a child, you have a young si, a younger sister, you have a brother.

Where does your life go from there, Ken? 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, I grew up loving sports. I mean, sports to me was a, a great way for me to not only interact with my friends, of which I had many, but it was a great way to help relieve the stress in my life. I mean, living with, uh, my father's second wife, as I indicated there was a lot of stress in that marriage.

There was a lot of arguing and one of the ways that I could kind of escape from the stress in our household. Was [00:11:00] to participate in athletics. And both my brother and I, uh, engaged in a lot of athletics. My father was an athlete when he was younger, so I grew up playing a lot of sports. I, uh, started on the varsity, uh, wrestling team and the varsity football team.

I played a lot of different, uh, intramural sports, and I played a lot of softball, uh, with friends. I worked during the summer. As a lifeguard. I was always ic, very physically active. Uh, but in addition, I spent a lot of time with my family and my family. I don't mean just, you know, my brother, my sister, my father, but aunts, uncles, cousins, and particularly grandparents.

And I grew up in a very close-knit family who loved each other very much and always helped each other whenever they could. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And that's, [00:12:00] that's part of humanity and that's how it should be. And sadly, so many people have fallen away from that. But I have noticed, like in New England, it's, I think because people came over from their countries of origin to New England, there is just a closer knit community mentality most of the time.

Would you, would you agree, like you said, you had aunts, uncles, cousins, friends, and probably even your family, your friends who were close were considered family, right? 

Kenneth Kunken: Right. And we did a lot together and we always knew we could count on each other for whatever, whatever help we needed during our lives.

Um, I had an aunt who unfortunately contracted multiple sclerosis. And she lived in the same community as I did, and I got to see my grandmother helping her very frequently with her everyday needs. So, you know, whenever there was an issue with any one of our family members, the whole family got together to help each other.[00:13:00] 

David Pasqualone: Okay. And then, so you got this close-knit family, you're helping each other out. Like it takes a VI village to raise a child and life's going on. You're dealing with life the best you can and everything's pretty much good overall or average, or to be expected. There was nothing like between your birth and about this age period, there's nothing else that you want to discuss, correct?

Kenneth Kunken: Right. Every, everything we, we, I, you know, I look back at it and say, we grew up as a very normal family. I had a very happy childhood despite the fact of the adversity that we had in my life. Yeah. Um, so, you know, all through high school I thought things were actually going pretty well. All right. And then where does your life go from there?

Well, in addition to spending a lot of time with sports, uh, I was fortunate that I was also a fairly good student. In fact, my grades were good [00:14:00] enough where I was admitted to Cornell University. Um, I went there following high school and I was majoring in engineering at Cornell, which had one of the top engineering schools in the country.

Um, so, you know, I was enjoying school, working hard and. During my sophomore year, I went out for their lightweight football team, which at the time was in a league called 150 pound Football. They've since changed the name to Sprint Football and it was a varsity football league, but for some of the smaller players, you know, who were not large enough to be on the heavyweight team.

So during my sophomore and junior years in college, I participated on our lightweight football team. And during a game, during my junior year in college in 1970, uh, we were playing [00:15:00] in a game against Columbia and I was in on the kickoff squad. And when I tackled the ball carrier, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord.

And as a result, I am almost totally paralyzed. Uh, I have just a little bit of movement in my left arm. Nothing on the right side of my body. I'm a quadriplegic and I've been paralyzed since this injury in 1970. 

David Pasqualone: Wow. And being someone who, I mean anyone would have a hard time dealing with this, but being someone who was always active and always, that's part of your social group, how you're playing with the boys and you know, your friends, your brothers, how, how was it when you broke your neck and woke up and the doctors are like, you know, Hey, you're, you're not going to walk again.

What was the impact at the beginning 

Kenneth Kunken: it was devastating and it was devastating. Bomb more than [00:16:00] just at the beginning. Uh, it's something that I've been living with every day for more than 50 years now, and it was very hard to just comprehend that you could be playing a game at one moment and suddenly your whole life would change.

And now. Going from being a very active individual to one who was totally sedentary and depending on others for your everyday needs. It's been a very difficult adjustment to make. 

David Pasqualone: So once this happened, did you finish college? Did you pack it in? Where did your life go from there, Ken? 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, after my injury, I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers.

And while I was there, you know, I tried to find out as much about my injury and my condition as I could because back in 1970, not many people knew a lot about [00:17:00] spinal cord injuries. I mean, when I was hurt. This was about 25 years before Christopher Reeve's injury. Now, Christopher Reeve was a tremendous role model, and following his injury, a lot more people learned about the ramifications.

Of a spinal cord injury. But when I was hurt in 1970, most people didn't know much about it. So, you know, I tried to ask a lot of questions and the medical professionals seemed reluctant to answer them for some reason. But I learned that the rehab center had put out a booklet, a pamphlet about, you know, a lot of details about my type of spinal cord injury, what type of movement you'd have, where your level of sensation would be, how it would affect your bodily function.

And they even had a page about what type of work, what type of careers that you could do with your type of spinal cord [00:18:00] injury. And for my level of injury, which is between the fourth and fifth cervical in the neck, the only career that I saw was that someday I may be able to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

That was the only thing they listed. And I was devastated here. I had been studying engineering at one of the most prestigious schools in the country. I injured my neck and not my head. Uh, and suddenly the best it seemed I could look forward to would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

And I was devastated when I saw that. And many of the people that were fellow patients of mine in the rehab center, um, were coming back for yearly checkups. They had hurt a lot longer than I was, and they didn't seem to be doing much with their lives. I felt that medical professionals were not encouraging them to do [00:19:00] more, even though they had a physical disability.

I felt there was still more people could be doing. And fortunately, my family encouraged me to make the most of my mental abilities and, you know, not just sit at home. Thanks to a vocational counselor at the rehab center, she encouraged me to go back to school and further my education. So when I was finally discharged from the rehab center, just 11 days after I finally got out, I decided to return to Cornell University and resume my studies in industrial engineering.

David Pasqualone: Beautiful. And of course, the campuses were completely, you know, ready for you and handicap accessible. Right. It was an easy transition. 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, not exactly. 

David Pasqualone: I'm, I'm the sarcastic for listeners in different regions of the world. Sarcasm in America is, you know it, we've laid it on pretty thick, so I know it wasn't like that.

What was it like, Ken, [00:20:00] going back? Okay. Well, 

Kenneth Kunken: I had the added misfortune of being injured about 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act took effect. So very few facilities were wheelchair accessible. Cornell was particularly inaccessible. I mean, Cornell's located in upstate New York in Ithaca, and it's on a very hilly terrain, and virtually every one of its buildings has steps in front of them.

And when I went back to school, which was now in 1971, there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. One of my classes, which met three times a week, was located in a building that had 16 steps in front of it, and my dorm room was in a building that had 10 steps just to get in. So on my first day of classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just [00:21:00] to attend my first day, 

David Pasqualone: man.

And when that happened. Was the attitude and tone of the administration, like, Hey, we're going to work on this. Or they like, adapt and overcome. It's your problem. 

Kenneth Kunken: You know, it was very new to them as it was for me. Uh, it was rare that you had a student who used a wheelchair up at Cornell because it was so inaccessible.

So I know they wanted to be helpful, but they really wasn't sure how they could help me. But just to give you an example, what happened, uh, I asked them if they could at least put in a ramp to my dorm so that I wouldn't have to go up and down those 10 steps every day that I was going in and out of the building.

And they told me that in order to put in a ramp there, they'd have to remove two bushes. And they were concerned that students might protest. If they removed those bushes so they didn't want to put in a ramp. Now you have to keep in mind, [00:22:00] this was during the Vietnam War and there were a lot of student protests going on, and they were concerned that removing these two bushes might result in more protests.

So for my first semester back, every time I'd go in and out of the building, I'd have to be bounced up and down the steps. And what happened was at the beginning of the second semester, they had a fire drill. Now of course, when you have a fire drill, everybody must evacuate the building. And the next day, a school administrator asked me how I managed during the fire drill.

And I very honestly told him that I was able to get out by having my attendant bounce me down the steps. But I felt bad because I know I slowed up the other students who were exiting. I. Wouldn't, you know, within two weeks the university installed a ramp by the building and it was clear to me they didn't do that for my convenience.

They did it for the other student's safety. [00:23:00] But that was still fine for me. I mean, at least now I had a ramp to use. And just so you know, David, not one student protested removing the two bushes. In fact, many of them preferred using the ramp rather than going up and down the steps every time. So the ramp turned out to help a lot of people, not just me.

So that was just one example of what it was like when I went back to school. And again, the administration was not trying to give me a hard time. They wanted to be supportive, but neither of us really knew the best way of doing it. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, and and that's true. And then there's appropriateness like a college, university, like you said, just because you had a neck injury didn't mean you had a brain injury.

Right. And you're paying to go to Cornell, they can step up and adapt. But just last month I was on a military base in the United States and it completely wasn't handicap [00:24:00] accessible. But at the same time, I, you know, what is the main purpose of that base? It's to train soldiers and in the division, in areas that are public, or for soldiers that can do mental work, that should be a hundred percent handicap accessible.

But at the training grounds where they're running around and doing physical activity, it would be unreasonable to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to refit every outfit in the United States for a place that's not going to be used. So, so what you're saying I agree with completely. You didn't know at that time.

They didn't know at that time. But for a public university or a private institution, it's nice that they adapted, even if they didn't do it for the best reasons. 

Kenneth Kunken: Absolutely. And with respect to veterans, I mean, we have so many veterans with disabilities these days. 

David Pasqualone: Yep. 

Kenneth Kunken: So it is so important for everybody to recognize that making things accessible is just the right thing to do to help our [00:25:00] veterans as well as other individuals who have disabilities.

David Pasqualone: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree more. I, what I, the point I was trying to make is that like, I think, and I you, if you disagree with me, you tell me. But if you're at a place where this is an active training camp, I. For physical issues. That's what I'm saying. We don't need to go overboard. We need to keep it in balance and make sure wherever you need to go, you can get to and wherever veterans need to go, they can get to, but we're not making steps.

Um, we're not making ramps where they don't need to be. You know what I mean? That's, that was the point I was trying to make, is that ignorant. Turns out right. But you know what, 

Kenneth Kunken: David, it turns out those ramps help people in far more different ways than people initially expect. For instance, mother's wheeling, baby carriages.

Yeah. Delivery men, uh, delivering groceries or moving furniture. Um, or people who are temporarily have a disability and need to use crutches [00:26:00] or temporarily use a wheelchair or have a limp. It turns out these modifications are helping so many more people than people initially realize. And you know, a lot of times you say, well, somebody with a disability wouldn't go to this building or store in any event.

Well, many a times it's because they don't go there, it's because it's not accessible. And if it was more accessible, more people would go there. I mean, when I was injured in 1970, I didn't see many other individuals with, uh, disabilities who were using wheelchairs out in public back then. But one of the reasons is we couldn't get around.

We couldn't get up and down a curb or into most buildings or restaurants. And once those facilities were changed and made more accessible. More people did go out there and use those facilities. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And that makes total sense. That makes complete [00:27:00] sense. So now you're at university, they take the step, they make the ramp, it actually makes everybody's life better.

Where does your life journey go from there, Ken? 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, you know, it was difficult trying to complete my degree in engineering, but I was fortunate that with help from my fraternity brothers, my fellow classmates, my football teammates, um, I was able to complete the next two years of my undergraduate education in industrial engineering.

Uh, and in 1973, I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell University. But you know, I realized at the end of that time that engineering really didn't seem like a viable field for me. Back then, they certainly didn't have laptop computers back then. You know, it was very difficult, uh, for me to really function as an [00:28:00] engineer.

But I was fortunate that I took an elective in psychology and my psychology professor, an individual by the name of Dr. James Moss, took an interest in me and suggested that I pursue a career in counseling. And through his advice and encouragement, I applied for graduate school in counseling and was accepted.

And I returned to Cornell and pursued a master's degree, which I earned. Over the next two years. Uh, I completed the schooling for that degree in counseling and student personnel administration, and I became the first quadriplegic to ever earn a graduate degree from Cornell. And then to increase my counseling credentials, I went to Columbia University, which happened to also be the school I got hurt against in my football game.

And at Columbia, I earned my second graduate degree. This one was in [00:29:00] psychological counseling and rehabilitation. And I then decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. And now, David, keep in mind, I now had two degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia, three prestigious Ivy League degrees, two master's degrees, and no one would hire me.

I sent out more than 200 resumes and looked for a job for a year. It seemed, everyone felt that I was just too disabled to work. In fact, I was even turned down David when I offered to volunteer my TMI services. I still could get a job. And finally, after looking for a year, I found one organization willing to give me the opportunity to show what I could do.

And that organization is on Long Island, it's called Abilities Incorporated, [00:30:00] which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center and is now called the Viscardi Center. It's named after its founder, Dr. Henry Viscardi, Jr. And they hired me to work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor to counsel, uh, uh, excuse me, other individuals who had severe disabilities.

And I was so fortunate to be given that opportunity and I loved working there as a rehab counselor. 

David Pasqualone: That's beautiful. And you know, people could be bitter, and I'm sure it was frustrating, but you said over a year. And then you're still referring to, as you're given an opportunity and you seize the opportunity, you're thankful for the opportunity.

Um, but it's crazy to think that Cornell and Columbia today are prestigious universities. Back then, when less people went to college, it was even higher. So for people not to give you [00:31:00] a, an opportunity, it, it's just mind blowing. 'cause we live in such a different world. Right? 

Kenneth Kunken: Absolutely. And you know, it was just so incredibly frustrating here I was, I had worked so hard to earn those three degrees.

I did everything I thought I could possibly do. What more do I need to do at that point just to have the opportunity to be able to help others? That's what I was looking for. I wanted the opportunity to allow me to help others as a counselor. 

David Pasqualone: Man. So then you get this career opportunity. What happens from there, Ken?

Kenneth Kunken: Well, I tell you once I had a job, David, that increased my feelings of self-worth, my self-esteem, my self-confidence. It just did wonders for me and my ego. And for the first time in many years, I was now in a position where I could help [00:32:00] others. You know, I loved being a counselor and helping encourage other individuals with disabilities to do more with their lives.

And, you know, my duties and responsibilities kept expanding at the center. And one of the things that they had me do was to speak at conferences before groups and organizations on the topics of affirmative action and non-discrimination for people with disabilities. And often after my talks I would be asked questions and while I would do my best to respond appropriately to the questions, I was always careful to caution the question is they should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns.

And I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. So I eventually left my job, applied to [00:33:00] law school, was accepted and left to go to HRA University School of Law here on Long Island. 

David Pasqualone: Man. And once you're at that university, how old were you roughly at that point in your thirties?

Kenneth Kunken: Uh, no, not yet. I actually started in, um, 1979, so I, I was just turning 29, uh, so I was almost 30. I was just turning 29. I had worked for a little over two years. As a counselor at the Viscardi Center, and I was very fortunate to then go on and go for further education and go to law school. I might add that when I left my job at the center, they not only hired a full-time counselor to replace me, but they had to, uh, they had to give additional duties that I was doing to two other [00:34:00] employees.

So, you know, I, I was very pleased that I was doing the work that seemed to be more than just one individual would've done. They, they actually divided my work between three other people after I left. And in fact, David, I'm proud to say that I must have made such an impression on the people at the center that 30 years after I left.

I received a call from the president of Abilities Incorporated that asked me to become a member of the Viscardi Center's Board of Directors. Um, oh, nice. I've been very proud that I first started serving on the Abilities Inc. Board of Directors, and then after a couple of years on the whole Viscardi Centers board of directors, which I still am, uh, presently on their boards as well.

David Pasqualone: Beautiful. So now you get your law degree and you can, I don't know if you want to talk about the journey of getting the law degree or what happens after [00:35:00] that, but where does your life go from there? 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, that's an interesting story as well. You know, my, my brother, uh, had become a lawyer and he was working as a defense attorney at the time, and my brother encouraged me to do an internship at the Nassau County District Attorney's Office.

During the summer, after my second year of law school. So I did an internship there and not only did I love the experience, I found a new way that I could help people and serve the community as a whole. So I decided to, uh, following that internship to apply for a full-time job at the District attorney's office.

And I was certainly concerned after it took me so long to be hired for my first job following my injury, that I would have difficulty getting this job. But I was fortunate that the district attorney of Nassau County person by the name of Dennis Dillon, placed his [00:36:00] hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability.

And despite the fact that they had more than 100 applicants, I was the first law student he hired for a full-time position that year. So here I was, I was able to complete law school in the standard three year time period. I passed a very difficult New York State bar exam the first time that I took it.

Yeah, that is an 

David Pasqualone: accomplishment itself. 

Kenneth Kunken: Thank you. I began my employment in the district attorney's office by participating and completing a very intensive four week training program where they taught us all aspects of trial techniques from a prosecutor's perspective. And I very proudly went to court my first day and I couldn't fit through the swinging doorways in the courtroom.

They were too narrow to allow me to get through in my electric wheelchair. Right? I couldn't believe after going [00:37:00] through all of those difficult, um, obstacles that here I was finally a lawyer and assistant district attorney, and I couldn't even get into the courtroom. So that's how I began my job. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. So what, let talk about that day in that moment because you're probably excited, nervous, proud, you're feeling all these emotions and then just the physical realization that probably everybody in that courtroom had a, oh crap, we're not ready for this.

What happened that day to get you, did they move you into another chair? Did you, well, from behind what happened, 

Kenneth Kunken: you know, it was a number of different things. Firstly, um, I had to go through, you know, a long way of going around to get in truth through the back of the courtroom where the judges would enter right, in order to be able to get into the area where the [00:38:00] prosecutors sat.

And that took a long time where I need court officers to unlock doors for me, you know, and make an ex. Especially long trip just to get in through the back of the courtroom. But then it was very difficult every time I needed to go in and out of the courtroom or to approach the bench, which I couldn't do either.

You know, at times when you're on trial and to do that, and I might add a couple of things. My first assignment was actually to our traffic court bureau, which was located on the second floor of a neighboring building. And I was promoted after just three days in traffic court because the elevator was broken, and no one knew when that would be fixed.

So here I was after all this and had difficulty with even getting in the courtrooms, and now I'm having problem because the elevator is broken. And actually, that may be the only time my disability actually worked in my favor because I was actually [00:39:00] promoted to another bureau because the elevator was broken.

Eventually I was able to manage in district court and uh, I started doing trials and I became a trial attorney. 

David Pasqualone: All right. Now let me ask you a question if you don't mind. So there's people listening now with disabilities. There's parents of children with disabilities listening, and there's people who just have struggles, right?

They have their own obstacles. And it may be physical, it may be mental, it may be emotional, it could be any kind, but we all need to adapt and overcome. But honestly, at this point in your life, if you can remember back when all of these things happened, what was your natural reaction or initial reaction?

Was it. How do I fix this? Was it adapt and overcome immediately or was it pissed off? Do you remember Ken? Like how you felt? [00:40:00] And then for our listeners, what did you do to transition your mind into a positive state to make progress? Because you've achieved so much. You've got college degrees, you're switching career fields from engineering to psychology to attorney.

It seems like you're just, okay, I got this. I move on, I got this and I move on. But did you always have a great attitude about it, or was it tough? 

Kenneth Kunken: It was really difficult, but I was very fortunate that I had a very supportive family. In fact, my family basically reassured me that if need be, they'd act as my arms and legs to make sure I could still do everything that I wanted to do in life.

And it was their encouragement that kept me moving forward. But I might say that in so many different times, uh, during my rehabilitation, during my schooling. During, uh, the times when I started work, I kept questioning with all I was doing to push myself forward. There seemed to be needless [00:41:00] barriers that was making it more difficult for me, such as the architectural barriers, you know, whether it be, uh, no, the lack of ramps or a working elevator or, you know, obstacles in the courtroom.

It seemed like there were so many things that were needlessly making things more difficult. But in addition to the physical barriers, there were still attitudinal barriers. There were still people that felt that I was just too disabled to work. In fact, I learned later that while most of the supervisors were absolutely great in helping me in the District Attorney's office, there was at least one that questioned privately why I was even hired, because as he put it, he can't even write.

Well, no, I couldn't write, you know, I did a lot of things, uh, by relying on my memory or with the help of paralegals and secretaries, but I was able to function adequately [00:42:00] as an assistant district attorney. And the attitudinal barriers were often as difficult to overcome as you know, the physical barriers.

I also might add that there were barriers and for a lot of people with disabilities just getting a job, because many times if somebody was working, they would lose their coverage to be able to afford to hire an aide that they may need to help them function. So there were those concerns as well. And that limits a lot of people with disabilities from eventually going out and getting a job.

David Pasqualone: Yeah, I was going to actually ask you about that, but I don't want to distract because you know, if you're in engineering, I went to school for engineering originally and then I switched to marketing and I still years later interact with that community. 'cause you're tight, you're together all day and they're logical, systematic thinkers.

Okay. Then you go to a psychology [00:43:00] degree. Usually those people are more hope open and helpful and you know, they, they're there to, you know, what can I do to help you? It seems overall, there's always exceptions, but when you said you went to be an attorney, next, there's a lot of great people who are attorneys, but there's also a real arrogancy in that field in general.

So I was wondering how you were accepted when you went to university to be an attorney. Was the general consensus warm and welcoming, or were they really like, this guy doesn't belong here? What field did you get when you were going through school? 

Kenneth Kunken: You know, I, the, the, the vast majority of people really wanted to help me.

I mean, good. They were encouraging that, uh, you know, I do what I was trying to do. They, they felt that it's good to see somebody with my type of motivation, uh, trying to make something productive out of my life. Um, but, you know, people always questioned what I was trying [00:44:00] to do because it seemed like nobody had ever done this before.

Um, and there were so many things that I was doing now that I didn't know of other people who were doing them in the past. I didn't know of another trial attorney who was a quadriplegic. You know, I certainly didn't know of an assistant district attorney who was a quadriplegic before me. Now, there may have been people out there, but I hadn't heard about them.

Didn't know anything about them, and I, I felt I probably would've at least heard that somebody else was doing this. And one of my messages to people now is, just because something has not been done before doesn't mean that you cannot do it now. And it seemed like there were many things that I was trying to do that at least I didn't know of others who had done it before.

And my feeling is, you know, [00:45:00] I wanted to do my best to make it happen and do everything I could to be successful at it. And I was fortunate that through my family's help and other individuals that I met, um, I received the help that I needed to go forward and do many of the things that I did. 

David Pasqualone: Amen. So now you have a courtroom that doesn't fit you.

You've got an elevator that breaks, you're thankfully promoted from it, like you said, maybe the only time you're ever had, you know, you benefited from the injury. Where's your life go from there? 

Kenneth Kunken: Well, you know, I continued to work hard as an assistant district attorney and in fact, I was promoted a number of times in my job.

Uh, when I first started doing trials in district court, I did a lot of litigation. And in fact, not long after I started doing trials in district court, I was approached by a [00:46:00] defense attorney who told me that he overheard some of the prisoners talking about me and the pens behind the courtroom. And apparently they were saying that I was a really tough a DA and they hoped they didn't get the guy in the wheelchair as their prosecutor.

So I was starting to develop a reputation as being very tough in the courtroom. Uh, I was promoted to our county court trial bureau. Before most of my colleagues that I started with. And while in county court the number of trials, pretrial hearings and grand jury presentations that I did each year were consistently among the highest in my bureau.

And I soon, I was promoted again, where I was now made a supervisor. I eventually became a deputy bureau chief of our county court trial bureau, where now I was helping supervise more than 25 other assistant district attorneys. Man, 

David Pasqualone: that's [00:47:00] incredible. And you know, it makes me think you had this obstacle in your life that for whatever reason it happened.

You know, God doesn't cause harm, but sometimes he allows things, it does work out ultimately for the better. There's so many people who have no obstacles like this and they just make excuses, and you're hitting these high achievement marks. Do you feel like it's just who you were? Did you feel like it was something to prove?

Were you like, damn, I'm just going to make the most of my life. What was your attitude going through that? Because I don't care if somebody's in a wheelchair or not a wheelchair, we should all have that kind of attitude, do our best, do all things as unto the Lord, not unto men. So what was going through your mind to motivate you, Ken?

Kenneth Kunken: Well, you know, I, again, I just have to go back to the fact that my family has been so helpful and supportive every step of the way as they were before my injury. You know, following my mother's death at an early [00:48:00] age. I had so many family members trying to help me that it basically got to the point that I felt I'd be letting them down if I didn't do everything I could do to make something positive out of my life.

So it made me work even harder to achieve. And once I did, I could see people were looking at me differently and I was being told that I was motivating and inspiring others to help them do more with their lives. And that further encouraged me to go on and do more. So, you know, again, David, with my disability, there's virtually nothing I could do without people's help.

But I was fortunate that I always did receive a lot of help from others. And I think there's so much, so many others, people, so much others, people with disabilities can do if they receive the proper help, support, guidance, and don't have to worry about losing their benefits. If they would [00:49:00] eventually go and secure employment.

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And that, that's, that's such a hard topic because, um, there's people who milk the system and there's people who need help and they don't get it 'cause they make a dollar. So the government takes everything away. It, it's a broken system that needs to be redone. Uh, so I, I feel for you man, like the support should be there and we shouldn't penalize people for trying to better their lives.

Um, 

Kenneth Kunken: and David, I might add that I said at the beginning that one of the things that I feel is so important is that people keep their expectations high for themselves as for others. And I might add that there was a day back in 1997, I actually went down to the United States Supreme Court where I was admitted to practice law before the highest court in the land, the US Supreme Court.

And while I was sitting in the courthouse. Before all nine [00:50:00] US Supreme Court justices. I was struck by the irony that the next day May 20th, I had been asked to be one of the speakers at the 50th celebration, 50th anniversary celebration of the RUS Institute in New York City. Now, that was the rehab facility that I had been a patient at 26 years earlier.

That was the facility where the medical personnel seemed to think the best I would ever be able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And here I was sitting in the United States Supreme Court thinking, Hmm, you know, here I am being asked to speak before this organization, this group that felt the best I would be ever to ever able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

And I had a one day how many other patients? Went through that facility, that would've done so [00:51:00] much more with their lives if they received the encouragement that I did for my family. You know, so many people were not encouraged to do more with their lives, and I think that made all the difference for me.

David Pasqualone: Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like even if we didn't have someone like that in our lives, we want to be that person to somebody else. But it's crazy how one person can so greatly impact our lives. Um, like you said, that one teacher, you said, I think his name was Dr. Moss. Was that correct? That's right.

Kenneth Kunken: You know, he was my psychology professor. He encouraged me to go on for a career in psychology. My brother Steve, who's a lawyer, basically was an inspiration for me to then go to law school. I. Uh, you know, and the work as a trial attorney. Yeah. And there's so many certain, so many individuals that could make a difference in someone's life.

Um, that, with that [00:52:00] type of encouragement and that type of help when needed, there's so much more everybody can do with their lives. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. So if you're listening to this and you're listening to Ken, you know, we can all make excuses for any aspect of our life. You can have a great life and complain, or you can have a terrible life and be joyful.

But you need to a, be able to accept where we're at, make the most of it, encourage other people. And when people encourage you, appreciate 'em. So now can you are. Moving to this next phase of life, you just stood before the US Supreme Court, which is a dream for any attorney in the world, and now you're doing it.

Where does your life go from there? Bring us from there through today. And I know in between there's a beautiful woman sitting next to you, so I know that connect somewhere in this story. Okay, 

Kenneth Kunken: well, that's the best part of my story, David. When I was injured, [00:53:00] um, I was 20 years old and I knew that was just too young to give up on life.

I, I felt there was still more that I could do than just lie in a hospital bed and think my life is over. And I made up my mind that I wanted to try and still do basically as much as I could with my life that I would've done had I not been injured and not let my injury prevent me from doing anything that I felt I would've done before my injury.

And that included dating. Like many men, I wanted to meet and have a satisfying relationship with the perfect woman. And as you might expect, dating when you're a quadriplegic and trying to impress a woman when you almost totally paralyzed poses its own unique set of challenges. So it took me a while.

You know, I dated a number of people when I was in college and then [00:54:00] after that, and I had the good fortune of meeting the most incredible woman who's now sitting beside me on my right. A name is Honor. And Honor is the most incredible person I've ever met. And I suppose what they say about opposites attracting, certainly held true for us because Anna and I are different in so many ways.

I mean, for one, Anna's 19 years younger than I am. Uh, Anna was born and raised in Poland. Well, I've spent my entire life basically here on Long Island. Uh, honor is Catholic and I am Jewish Honor's over six feet tall, and I'm just under five foot eight, um, honor's a vegetarian, and I love to eat meat and Anna's and exceptional physical conditions.

She works out every day, and here I am almost totally paralyzed, [00:55:00] and yet it just seemed like a match made in heaven. And on June 14th, 2003, Anna and I were married. So it's a little over 21 years ago. And I would say that was one of, I would say it's the best thing that ever happened to me. But actually my life got even better than that because when Ana and I decided about getting married, Ana told me that she wanted to have my baby.

Not just our baby, my baby. She said she wanted to see a little KunKen in running around our home. Now, this really seemed impossible at the time. I had been paralyzed for more than 30 years and I was already in my fifties. But we decided to look into it, the possibilities, and we researched various options and we found that it still may be possible [00:56:00] for someone in my condition to still farther a child.

So we looked into it and we learned through in vitro fertilization, there was that possibility. So shortly after our wedding, I went through my part of in vitro, and it took a while. In fact, my first three attempts were not successful. But fortunately on my fourth attempt, the doctor was able to extract some viable sperm.

Now it was on his turn to go through a lengthy process of fertility treatments and hormone treatments and be examined and monitored and, you know, on a daily basis. And that was difficult for her as well. But, you know, we pursued it. And despite the obstacles, um, Anna became pregnant and we were just so fortunate that through all the challenges, [00:57:00] my wife became pregnant.

And on January 24th, 2005, think about this, David, I was present in the delivery room. I was actually present in the delivery room on that day when my wife Anna, gave birth to triplets. 

David Pasqualone: Man, 

Kenneth Kunken: we have three incredible sons. Joey, Jimmy and Timmy. They're now 20 years old and they're sophomores in three different schools in upstate New York.

Incredible. I couldn't be any happier David than I am right now. I can. That's 

David Pasqualone: awesome. If you can, after the show, and if you want, you can send me a picture and we'll put it in your show notes. So if people want to see your family, they can visit our website and see a picture of you, Anna, and your your three boys.

Kenneth Kunken: That would be great. I would love it because, uh, believe me, I have so [00:58:00] many pictures of my boys. I am just so proud of them. 

David Pasqualone: That's, that's incredible. So where is your life, I guess, between your birth and today, Ken, is there anything we missed that you want to cover before we transition to where's Ken today and where are you headed next?

Kenneth Kunken: Well, there are a few things. I mean, uh, I've now retired. I'll be, I'm turning 75 in July, uh, and I'm now retired. Um, but I'm still active doing different things. As I indicated before, I'm on the board of directors at the Scard Center. Uh, I'm active in the Suffolk County Long Island, uh, rehabilitation Society, and I'm active in that.

I, uh, am a member of the Cornell University Council. Um, and I've done, uh, quite a bit of motivational speaking over [00:59:00] the years. But what I'd like to say, David, is while I was still in the rehab center, a friend of my aunt's, uh, came to the center, knew I was very depressed at the time, and thought it would be helpful, uh, if I were to talk about my feelings and let people know what it was like to go through rehabilitation.

When you have a spinal cord injury. He suggested I write a book about what I was going through and doing. So way back more than 50 years ago, I started working on a book about my life. And with his help and with other people's help, um, I started writing things down about what I was going through. Uh, part of it I was dictating to this individual.

Later we stopped, uh, working together and I tried typing myself, which was very difficult with braces and splints. [01:00:00] I used to be able to type very, very slowly. I'd basically be typing with the eraser of a pencil, um, very slowly. And I type some of it myself. And after my children were born, uh, my wife encouraged me to continue with the book and with her help, whenever we had some free time, we sat by her.

Um, laptop, computer, and I dictated some more. And last year we finally completed my book. Uh, it's been published by a company called 12 Tables Press and my book was published last year. It's called I Dream of Things That Never Were the Ken Conan story. And it's now out in the hardback, it's out on a Kindle version.

And recently it came out on an audio book version that I narrated. Um, and if I can just tell you where I [01:01:00] got the name of that book from the title of my book. While I was still a patient in the rehab center, I had the opportunity to testify before a United States Senate Health subcommittee chaired by Senator Edward Kennedy.

I. And eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail that had an inscription on it that the senator said his late brother Robert Kennedy liked very much. And the inscription was the quotation. Some men see things as they are and say, why I dream of things that never were and say, why not?

And that's why I got the title of my book. I Dream of Things That Never Were the Ken Cumin story. So now I've, lately I've been doing some work promoting my book, um, as well as, um, narrating the audio version of the book. And now I [01:02:00] have an opportunity to just basically enjoy my time being retired.

David Pasqualone: Excellent. Now, if somebody wanted to reach out, contact you, whether it's email, phone, call, whatever, what's the best way and where for people to reach you? 

Kenneth Kunken: Okay. The best way would be to go to my website, which is ken kan.com. Ken kan.com. That'll tell them more about me. It even has pictures, uh, of my life through growing up, my early stages, as well as following my injury.

It has a lot of pictures of my children in it, and it'll also indicate where they can purchase my book. So it's called ken kan.com. 

David Pasqualone: Excellent. Well, Ken, it's been. An honor. It's been inspiring, it's been challenging speaking with you today. Um, I'm so glad I got to meet you and Anna, and if there's any other final thoughts or encouragement or words or [01:03:00] wisdom you want to share with our audience, feel free.

If there's anything we missed, fire away. This is your show. 

Kenneth Kunken: Thank you David. And I appreciate that and I appreciate the opportunity, uh, to be able to tell my story. And one of the things that I would certainly like to do as I've been trying to do, um, following my injury, is to encourage others to hire people with disabilities.

I think there is so much somebody with a disability can do that. I think employers have found it actually just makes good business sense. These are some of the best workers, most dedicated, most loyal workers and employer can ever hope to find. But there are additional messages that I want to send out.

And it basically is that they're not to set limited expectations for yourself or for others. There's so much everybody can do, you know, if you're given the opportunity. And I think it's so [01:04:00] important for everybody to remain motivated and to participate in society. Don't just sit home waiting for something good to happen.

You know, sometimes you need to take the initiative and you need to challenge yourself, and you need to feel it. Just because something has not been done before, doesn't mean you cannot do it now. And in addition, whenever you have the opportunity, try to help others. You know, everybody should do their best, everything they can do to help others succeed as well.

And once you do that, it makes you feel better about yourself. That's something that I certainly know has helped me a great deal. Um, so I think that's so important. And David, I might add an another thing if I could. When you leave your job at the district attorney's office, we would go through what's called an exit interview, where we would tell the person and [01:05:00] personnel what we like best about the job and what we thought could be improved about the job.

And I'm so proud to say that the personnel director told me on a number of occasions what my fellow assistant said was one of the best parts of their job was meeting, getting to know, and working with me. And I'm not saying that to Bo Boster Bragg, I know they weren't specifically referring to meeting Ken Kin.

What they were really talking about was meeting, getting to know, and working with on a daily basis, someone with a significant disability. Because unless they had a close relative with a disability, they rarely came in contact on a daily basis. With somebody with a disability. And I think they found that that not only inspired and motivated them, but it gave them a whole new way to, to look at people and to live their lives.

Um, [01:06:00] and I might add that the district attorney's office two years ago decided to name an award after me. It's called the Kenneth J Kan Award, and they give that to the outstanding assistant district attorney every year who best exemplifies my work ethic, which is basically saying they wanted to honor and recognize the outstanding assistant district attorney who demonstrated that he or she had the work ethic of the guy in the wheelchair.

And I am so proud of the fact that that's who their choosing to honor. The work ethic of the person who is sitting in a wheelchair. And I think that's so important for your listeners, for your, uh, people who are following your podcast to know there's so much somebody with a disability can do if they're just given the opportunity.[01:07:00] 

David Pasqualone: Man, I appreciate you so much, Ken. And it, if you get time for one more question. Sure. So we've referred to your family and the encouragement and the friends you had, and sadly, not everybody has that. Right. And like you said, right, how many people went through that program where, you know, they told you you could sell magazines and you're one of how many that said, no, I can do more.

You know, whether it's an internal brokenness, whether it's people programming, the brain learned behavior, there's so many people who have been injured or born. You know, with a disability, I hate even using that term, but they're born with like, obviously if you have one arm or if you're quadriplegic, life's going to be a lot harder, right?

But then there's men like you who don't make excuses, they adapt, they overcome, they find a way, and they achieve greater things than most people who have been given everything. [01:08:00] For those out there who don't have the family structure, who don't have that, let's say, daily encouragement, if you're speaking right to them, what would you like to say to them to encourage them, to help them, to let 'em know that it doesn't have to be this 

Kenneth Kunken: way?

David? Basically, David, most people with very few exceptions, are good people. They want to help. Sometimes they don't know the best way of helping, but people truly want to help. There are people out there that want to help you succeed. And you need to be amenable to taking, uh, that assistance when it's either offered or encourage people by getting out there, by participating in society, by showing that you are motivated to doing something with your life and to maintain a positive attitude.

You know, I think with all the things that you can do in life, maintaining a [01:09:00] positive attitude encourages more people to want to be with you, to help you to take part in your life and to work together with others. When one person succeeds, we all succeed if we all get together to help that individual. 

David Pasqualone: Amen.

Well, thank you for that. And ladies and gentlemen, check out Ken's book, check out his website, contact him if you have any questions or you want to continue the conversation. Um, I've been. Very encouraged myself. Challenged Ken, thank you for being here today, brother 

Kenneth Kunken: David. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my story with your listeners and to let more people in on what I experienced in my life, what I have learned, and how it's encouraged me to do more with my life and trying to help others succeed.

David Pasqualone: [01:10:00] Awesome. Well, ladies and gentlemen, all the inspiration, all the motivation that Ken brought us today doesn't mean anything. If you listen to it, go do something with it. Repeat habitually the good each day so you can have a great life in this world, but more importantly, an attorney to come share this episode with your friends and family who need it.

And again, if you need anything, reach out to Ken or myself and we'll do our best to help you. So I'm David Pascal alone. This was our remarkable friend, Ken. And again, Ken, thank you for being here today. And ladies and gentlemen, we'll see you in the next episode. 

Ciao. 

Epic Voice Guy: The Remarkable People Podcast, check it out,

the Remarkable People Podcast. Listen, do Repeat [01:11:00] for Life,

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