1. A Clean Slate

Danny & new co-host Mike kick off their revamped podcast by talking about reinvention and why sometimes you just have to burn it all down and start again. New name, new show, new attitude.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hey Mike. Hey Danny.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to your own podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

What is your podcast? Oh yeah. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Thanks for uh actually thinking to invite me and join this.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Way out of my uh usual day-to-day, but I'm excited to give it a shot.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Why'd you say yes?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Because it simultaneously excited me and scared the crap out of me. And I thought whenever those two things happen at the same time, you normally should say yes and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

That's a good point. Yeah. Well, I haven't recorded a podcast in well over a year. And you haven't recorded a podcast in Ever. Ever.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Barely ever recorded guitar playing either.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So Yeah. Well, I guess we need to talk about why uh we're doing this and what our theme is. And also, in case anyone is wondering why I sound particularly sexy, it's because I lost my voice the other day. We've already had to postpone this recording, and um it was really annoying.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

I thought you got cold feet, and you're like, what am I doing with this guy? He has no idea what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, I lost my voice in Switchmarks. Yeah, exactly. So what's the new show about and why we're doing it?

SPEAKER_04 1:27

I don't know. I'd I'd like to hear that in your words actually, since uh I guess you you had the show with all the history here before, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

We're actually slightly over ten years uh uh after having started the old show. It started I think January or February 2016. And the old show was m you know mainly about uh the music industry and the real life behind the scenes of creative professionals. Um which was interesting, you know, and and anyone that's been listening to that since the start knows that it went on a whole variety of you know left and right turns and highs and lows and things like that. Um and I feel like that kind of played itself out. I think the behind the scenes stuff is a bit kind of overdone now. I feel like the industry has changed so much, uh, not in good ways necessarily, and I just got kind of sick of talking about it really. And what motivates me uh in my life is music. And I and I guess I've had time away to to think and reflect and that kind of stuff, you know. Um and it's music that lights me up. It's not you know the industry stuff, just I'm not into it.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Yeah, so we we have designed this new show around um all things music. Um let's see, I've got it written in front of me. Things like album reviews, talking about artists, music theory, technique, music history, gear, um, some of the big debated subjects that are out there. And I wrote Many More Stoner Ponderings. That was for you. Who's that director that so uh what one of the things we um we had a chat about the other day was the whole idea of reinventing ourselves. And I feel like I've reinvented myself several times, but you have too, so why don't you tell us a bit about that?

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Yeah, I think I mean we kind of touched on this the other night. We were talking about how I think New Zealand's actually a pretty incredible country for giving you the space to do that.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Um I felt like I was much more locked into my career choices and and sort of what I had the path I'd set myself on at a pretty young age in Canada. Um it is a bit more yeah, I don't know. It seems to just be a bit more accepting here. It seems to be a bit more culturally okay. Like um for the listeners of the show, I'm a structural engineer by trade. I've actually just recently hired an engineer who was a uh a bar manager for seven years. Wow. While he went to school and and got his engineering degree. Um and I actually look for people like that that you know don't fit the sort of typical mold because I find that people that are real, you know, self-learners, self-starters, they they kind of bring something a little bit extra um to the wider team. So and I think he's a good example of that, you know, being able to completely reinvent himself. Um and he's he's absolutely flourishing in the role now. So you know, I think um the a few years ago uh with COVID kind of put everybody a bit backwards, you know, kinda everyone had to take a bit of a a back seat and see what was actually important in their lives, and um that was a bit of a uh realignment for myself and getting back into music and things that I was really passionate about that you know fill your cup a little bit more. So much seems to drain it these days.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

So Right. Yeah. And do you want to talk about the whole thing that changed the sort of direction of your life before COVID?

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Yeah, so um kind of late uh late 2019, early 2020, um, I've got really sick. Um I have severe ulcerative colitis, which is um a form of IBD similar to Crohn's disease. Uh essentially, my immune system attacks my colon. Um there's a whole bunch of inflammatory issues that that go on with that as well. Um so I was in my early 30s and you know, basically incontinent, um, trying to deal with all sorts of issues with your career and you know uh having a bit of a uh bit of a more um senior role and needing to do you know presentations and speeches and stuff like that and being worried about being able to uh not have a movement halfway through, uh obviously made that stuff a bit tricky. And you know, I I sort of had uh my career trajection figured out at a pretty young age. I was gonna start my own engineering firm before 40. I had all these great plans and that sort of derailed things um and definitely went through a pretty dark period for a few years. Um what was that about? Uh just just the sort of loss of function and control. Um and the pivotance? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Because there's no cure, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:53

No, there's not. No, there's not. Um not at this stage, anyways, who knows? Modern medicine. Yeah, maybe it'll be good for something.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Did you ask Chat GPT?

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Not yet. Not yet. Um but yeah, that was it was a bit of a scary time. Um it took almost two and a half years to sort of get a medication um regime that was working for me to get back into clinical remission. So that was another thing. Um, just being sick for years at a time is is something that really takes a toll on you.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Psychologically, I can imagine. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Yeah, yeah. It was it was the it was the the physical aspect, but also the mental aspect. Um it's very hard to do your day job when you're just trying to get through the day.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

Um, so that was something I had to kind of deal with and and manage new expectations.

SPEAKER_05 6:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Um, and part of that was, you know, not not this might sound wrong, not putting my career on cruise control, but but not trying to push so hard all the time. And that was sort of the space I was in for about a decade. So um it was nice to kind of take the foot off the gas a little bit and reassess, um, kind of focus on things that that actually make me happy. Yep. Um, you know, physical outlets and creative outlets, and that's uh hockey for me um physically, and then and then guitar and music um creatively. So I kind of delved into that world a little bit more, um, started to build a bit more of a community in that space, um, started taking guitar lessons, uh, which was something I've should have done a long time ago. I think I've learned more in the last year than probably the the previous five or ten. So yeah, if anyone's out there and you're thinking, hey, maybe I should actually get in-person lessons, um, if you have the means and capabilities, highly recommend.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

They don't even know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

Yeah, oh that's uh Danny McCrum at Off the Guitar Lessons.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I just realized we also did we explicitly say that you're the new co-host of the show?

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Uh no, so I'm the new co-host of the show, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I don't I I think we just implied it but didn't quite say it.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

Yeah. Yeah. Um so yeah, that was uh that was a bit of a surprise for me when you asked me if I'd be interested in doing it. Um this is uh very far outside of my normal day-to-day.

SPEAKER_05 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

Um but yeah, I'm excited about it. It's it's an opportunity to talk about things that I'm passionate about, um, you know, to maybe get to interview people that I've always wanted to get the chance to talk to, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Well, we you um there's always this type of dynamic when we do hang out, um, which I thought would would work really well on the mic as well. Um and you're obviously someone who thinks about things a lot. Uh we we we've found out already we definitely don't agree on everything. Which is good. Yeah um and I also thought it'd be an interesting dynamic uh to have you know, I've been a working musician for a long time, but it'd be an interesting dynamic to have a co-host who's actually not a professional musician. Um because I I kind of realize, well, most of our listeners probably aren't professional musicians either. Uh so in some ways you're the straight man, you know, you're the Jason Bateman in Arrested Development, you know, um you know, representing the the listener's point of view.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Uh and we intend to have um uh a couple of like rotating uh uh guests, not get well kind of guests, I guess, guests, guest co co-hosts or something.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

We'll figure it out as we go.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yeah, we'll we'll work it out. But um, but it's it's actually quite an interesting idea that you've obviously loved music and and and loved playing guitar since way back. I don't know, I can't remember when you said you started, but um you're coming at it without the baggage and and uh you know the bruising of having worked in this music industry.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Yeah, I'm I'm definitely coming at it from more of the side of a passionate fan, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

You know, um where I'm bitter and twisted.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Exactly. Yeah, so it should play out well. If we ever get into the corporate world stuff, then we can you know you can get my better and twisted side.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, I mean that's been part of my reinvention though, is is letting go of as much as I can and um and moving into this new reality we're in. Um which has all coincided with you can hear I'm struggling to breathe, right? Having lost my voice a bit, um, which has all coincide with coincided with the pandemic and my daughter being born and um last year we bought a house and there's other things that have been um you know front of mind for me. Yeah. And it's been nice to kind of let go of that stuff. Um I think I want to focus on more productive and happier things, and and also uh the world has got a lot of stuff going on right now, and you know, I think our attention probably probably the same way that your experience sounds like it's life is short, what really matters to me, let's get into what really matters to me. It's kind of like that version for me. Like do I want to be in the middle of this really uh you know, kind of pressured rat race feeling, um, with a lot of tall poppy syndrome and all that stuff. Um, or do I just want to be free of it and just live my life? You know? Yep. And that's what I've been working on.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah, I like the saying, you know, your garden grows where you water it. So I think uh that's what I was most excited about when you kind of gave me the breakdown of this podcast. Because I I did enjoy your podcast before, where it was more interview-based, more you know, based on the actual music industry. That was a really nice behind-the-scenes peak for someone like me. Um, but I do agree, I've we've I've kind of mentioned to this, you know, this to you before, where I think industry in general, in a lot of different industries, is dealing with similar issues. Yeah. Um we we don't need to get into that right now. Maybe that'll be a future podcast, but it does sort of feel like, you know, they've ar that shark that shark's already been jumped, you know, at this stage. Um I feel like we're the the people on the Titanic playing the violin while it's sinking. Let's just have a bit of fun and focus on what we enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Well, we we were also joking about the idea of like having a podcast about Blockbuster being in trouble, you know, at this point in the game where it's well and truly over. You know, it feels like that a bit. Um but the idea of reinventing yourself is also something that uh I think is worth spending a another minute or so on. Um it's funny, I've I this is entirely true. I've always had this thought in the back of my mind, this this might touch on a dark subject momentarily, but I've always thought uh my backup plan as opposed to like ending it, right? If I ever got if things ever got that bad where I was like considering ending it, I thought that's ridiculous. Why not just restart somewhere else? And I always thought, I think my my backup plan would be, you know, have you seen the movie Cocktail? No, you know, the 80s movie with Tom Cruise?

SPEAKER_04 12:27

I know of it, but I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

And he's a he's a bartender at like a beach bar, like in a tropical island or something.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

And I thought, that's there we go.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, I'll just run away and be a be a barman at a beach, you know, the beachfront bar.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Do the reverse of my engineering.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

But it but there's something so liberating about the uh about realizing that you can actually just restart and throw it all behind you.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Um and I mean I I do feel like I've reset it a few times in my life, but there's a there's a lyric in a Counting Crows song which always sounds clumsy to quote. Uh it sounds really nice in the music. Um, and it is uh for all the things I'm losing, I may as well resign myself to trying to make a change. Clum comes out a bit clumsy, but the for some reason when I first heard that like 25 years ago, it just implanted itself in my head. When things go wrong, it's an opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've we've kind of touched on this as well, where obviously there's a lot going on in the world right now. Um one of the flip sides of that and a little bit of the silver lining is I'm actually a bit excited for some of the interesting and exciting new forms of art that we're seeing that are popping up. Right. You know, who's the next rage against the machine gonna be? I don't know, but I'm I'm interested to see. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

They're gonna have to rage pretty loud, you know. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

It's a lot of noise to get above.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

So as a a a getting to know uh you and I guess me a little bit, um, although the listeners are probably more interested in you than me because they heard a lot of me. We thought we'd um would start with the gag of uh arriving today with three genuine questions and three zilly questions for each other. So uh do you want to start well shall I start with my genuine questions to you? Sure. And then we'll come back around. So my first question is you fell in love with music when you were young. Did you ever consider making it your career?

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Uh yes. I definitely considered it over the years. Um I think there was just uh a bit of imposter syndrome. Um I I dealt with that quite a bit even in my engineering career.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

So does every musician by the way. I think so.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

I think so. Um the more of the interviews that I listened to of yours, actually, I came to that same conclusion. But I didn't know that back in the day, you know. So those are one of those life lessons that if I did it all over again, uh would I make some different choices? Probably. Um but I do, you know, I'm I'm very proud of the career that I've built, and it's uh allowed me to pursue music as a as a passion project more than um needing to rely on it in a very difficult uh environment. So yeah, it's it is definitely something that I considered back in the day, but um never pursued seriously.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

All right. Well, some people think that um an engineer's mind is sort of the opposite of a creative mind. I actually don't know if I agree with that anyway, but the question is how does being an engineer affect your approach to playing, technique, and tapping into creative expression?

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Yeah, I think a lot of engineers do have to be quite creative because you're trying to find novel solutions to very challenging problems. So I think it's the engineers that are able to sort of tap into that within within a structured framework. Um you can really unlock uh a lot of terrific value, um, not just financially, but but in the designs that you can do and and um some of the products or systems you can innovate. So I think it does actually go hand in hand, but I also think we like to break large problems down into small pieces. Yep. Um and that's why I actually really uh gravitated towards your teaching style was you're really good at breaking things down into those smaller bite-sized pieces so I can actually understand the the foundation and build a structure upon it.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Um for the listeners, a bit of a funny anecdote. You know, I'd been playing for probably 15 years before I took the lessons, um, and thought I was halfway decent, but I knew that there was probably gonna be some uh some bad habits that needed to be fixed. And one of the first things uh played a little something, and and Danny said, Okay, that was good. Um you're holding your pick wrong.

SPEAKER_05 16:25

It's like, oh shit, okay, well, back to the basics.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

But but I think um, you know, peeling apart some of your foundational uh skills and techniques, no matter what the industry, no matter what you're actually doing, it's something we don't do very often. Um and I think it can be incredibly valuable.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

So I also think that cre I've I've often said this, that creativity is problem solving because you you start off imagining the painting you're gonna paint, and then you're problem solving like right, how am I gonna start? How am I gonna you know layer it up or whatever? Not that I'm a painter, I'm guessing all of that, but you know, you you imagine I've always imagined the song that I well maybe that's not completely true. Sometimes you just start with an idea and you chase it. But but sometimes you think I want to write a song like that, and then you sort sort of go, how do I get to that? So I think I think creativity is problem solving. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Alright, if the world was ending and you could only keep one album for the rest of your life, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Oh, that's a good question. Um I'd probably I mean, rumors, Fleetwood Mac, it's it's a bit of a bit of a common answer. Um I think another one that I would actually consider would be Crime of the Century by Super Tramp.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Oh nice! I didn't know you like Super Tramp. I love Super Tramp. I love Super Tramp. There we go. Oh my god, have you heard the live album from uh I think it's 1980? Live in Live in Paris? Oh my god, they're so good.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Oh, we've got some homework to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, I didn't know we had that in common. That's awesome. Yeah, there you go. We'll have to do a Super Tramp episode. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

I was already planning a crime, uh Crime or Breakfast in America. They're both good.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I'm actually surprised they're not still in the zeitgeist as much as they should be.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

Yeah, I I don't know. It was um, you know, I I grew up on all of my dad's albums. Um he was big into sort of classic rock and and sort of psychedelic rock and prog rock and stuff like that. So that was sort of my upbringing. Um and I was always surprised too that more people weren't super tramp fans. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, incredible. And also rumors is obviously one of the greatest albums ever made. Yeah. I mean it's it's only a a common one because it's so good. Yeah, exactly. I think that we can pass that. Um you still didn't actually narrow it down to one though, I have to say.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

You uh I'll say crime, this uh crime of the century then. Um just to just to be a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

All right. Do you wanna do you wanna uh give me your genuine questions and then we'll go to the ad break?

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Yeah, um I mean this this might be old news for some of the listeners, but it'll be new for me. Um how long have you been actually playing and who was it that first inspired you to pick up the guitar?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Oh. Uh I started guitar lessons in 91, um, but I started tottering in 1990. So that's 36 years. Um and who inspired me to play? Well, I was committed to being a musician before I chosen my instrument. Um I had piano lessons when I was about five or six or something. I went piano lessons for a few years and it didn't resonate with me the same way, which is weird because now I love the piano. Like I mean, I love listening to great pianists, you know. Um I think it was just, you know, traditional piano lessons and didn't sound like the radio and all of that. Um and so I struggled with that, didn't really get anywhere, stopped piano lessons eventually. I think I might have done four or five years, and then I was instrumentless for a while, and I remember really thinking hard about what I'm gonna play, because I knew that I wanted to be a singer, and in my mind, singers um who played instruments were only guitarists or pianists. I hadn't I hadn't noticed Paul McCartney or Sting or Phil Collins. Yeah, well Phil Collins, exactly right. Um yeah, that's a good point. I might have noticed Phil Collins because I loved Phil Collins back then. Um I still love him now, but um uh yeah, I hadn't clicked that you could play the bass and be a singer, and I actually now kind of regret not being that because when you're the bassist it's easier to be a band director because you can really kind of inform where the chords are going, and you're right there between the drums and the guitar and whatever. So, in some ways I that would have made a lot more sense. Um but um I I started playing the guitar just because it was there, there was an iron string in the house, I was just f fiddling around with it, and I never thought about it being a serious pursuit, and my um my school friend Ben um suddenly turned up with a guitar and started playing one day, and I didn't know he had also started learning. So that was the moment where I thought, oh well if Ben can play then I can play. So if he can do it, it it was a bit like that, not you know, no disrespect to Ben, it was just more like, oh, so kids can play this stuff. Totally. Yeah, you know, I thought you maybe had to be older or something. Um and so I went and got guitar lessons, and that was that. As soon as I took lessons, I got lessons for my uh twelfth birthday. Uh a couple months later, I was starting to write songs, and then we I think we played our first gig maybe another month after that, and that's it.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Work it.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah, I'll try and keep my next answer shorter.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

I'm I'm curious, um I'm curious how common it is for people to take some lessons of an instrument and then stop and then come back. Because I I had the same I had the same situation where when I first started out, I did take lessons and it just didn't click. And I put the guitar down for a little while and then it was something that you know kept coming back to.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Um but I didn't take lessons again for another almost 15 years until I started with you.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So Yeah. I think it's really common actually. Um and these days the other version of that is they try to teach themselves online for a while. Um, and then it doesn't usually work. So then they reach out.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

They learn how to hold a pick wrong.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um lot of lot of crazy advice online. Um but I think it's really common, and I think uh this will sound more judgy than I meant. It or will it? Is it as exactly judges I am? I think the quality of tutors out there is garbage. I think there are a lot of musicians out there who don't really know how to teach, they don't know how to translate what they know into something. Um and often a lot of musicians out there don't really know what they're talking about. Um and they really do a disservice because the majority of people who go to lessons with somebody um uh who is like that, they don't realize their tutor's not very good. They internalize it and they they blame themselves. And I mean there was one guy I was teaching, uh I taught him for about 12 years. I started teaching him when he was, I think, 60 and uh maybe just shy of 60, and he had had lessons when he was a teenager, and the whoever he was getting lessons from said, You don't have any talent. And so he didn't play for 40 years. Oh, that's awful. And then he came to his first lesson with me, and I said, Well, what's talent? It's just a skill, let's get on with it. And then and now he loves playing. And uh, that's what I can. I still hear from him sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

That is cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

Um next question. Uh who did you learn the most from in your career and what was your biggest aha moment from them?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Oh, that's a tough one. Who did I learn the most from?

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Because I know you've had lots of influences and lots of great people you've worked with over the years.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

It's hard not to say Tommy Emmanuel because I worked with him so much. And he's pretty good. He's alright. He's getting there. He's got a bright future ahead of him. Yeah. Um and he's also but he's also such a giving person. He's so open and chatty, and and you ask him a question, you you know, you're driving for hours in a van to the next venue, and you ask him a question, he'll happily spend the next two hours diving into the nuts and bolts of it, you know. Um, very, very generous conversationalists, you know, not keeping anything to himself. He's he's he really tries to help anybody can engage more, improve their technique, and you know, improve their experience with music, which is great. So, yeah, he taught me a lot about um playing and and being a professional and being a good person. Um but in some ways I feel like it's almost too obvious. There must be someone else. There've been, yeah, there's it's actually really hard to say. There's been a lot of really good people. I worked with a promoter early on who was um uh a very successful musician and promoter and business person. And he said to me this just uh amongst other things, he said this thing that was really interesting. He goes, I think musicians or artists um have a particular skill when it comes to buying a house. And I said, What do you mean? And he goes, Well, an accountant will just look at the specs and go, yep, takes the boxes. Um an artist will will consider the experience of what it's like to walk into the house. And I thought, wow, what an interesting idea. Um and so there's there's been people like that. Um yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I have a clear answer for you. Also lots of books. Charlie Chaplin's autobiography was a big one for me. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Yeah. I mean it's it's it's not an easy thing to answer, right? It's it's it's anything like that is so broad and you know, you're made up of hundreds of thousands, millions of those little interactions over your lifetime. That's it. Um and it is always hard to pin that down, but yeah, I'd say Tommy Manuel is a pretty good answer. Yeah, yeah. He's a pretty good answer.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

He's probably the coolest answer. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Definitely. Um if you started over today, what would you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Have I started music or just life?

SPEAKER_04 25:26

Let's focus on the music for now.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Um I don't know. I have you know the uh whole idea of when you're in the middle of your career, you are basically making it up and guessing everything, and then you get older and you look back and you go, God damn it. Oh, why didn't I do this? Yeah. I I have too much of that, and I can torment myself by thinking about it too much. I mean I know I I um started my sort of the professional area of my career circa the year 2000, and the world has changed so many times over since then.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Yeah, I feel like that's it.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Like, you know, I never really took social media seriously, for example, and so when it was still on the up before it became this sort of cesspool that it is now, um, I never utilized it. Uh and so I I yeah, I don't know. I think I I think I can look back and see a lot of that stuff and you know, drive myself nuts. How would I do it now though, if I sort of erase all of that from my memory? I I don't think I'd pursue being a professional, honestly. Um but I don't know what else I'd do.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Yeah, it's it's difficult. I mean it's realistically, if you go back in time, you're gonna make the same decisions, right? I think you don't you don't have if you don't if you don't have the the the foresight of of the experience that you go through on the back end, right? But um yeah, I think I mean I'd say it's the same same in my career too. There's there's it's always easy to kind of look back and say, oh, I wish I had not taken this off or not said no to this or or or said yes to this.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Uh well I don't know, but the music industry is in the state it's in, so that part of it makes me think, you know, I really gambled on the wrong business. Um however, it is nice, there's there's two things that I'm really happy about. One thing is I'm really good at something. And that's a that's a nice thing to have. It just feels like you've got a bit of a superpower or something, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Um the other thing is I've been able to employ myself.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

And I've been self-employed for 21 years. And um times are really tough right now out there. It's hard for people to find jobs and all of that sort of stuff. Um, I don't have, you know, obviously I'm not bulletproof. I mean, if the we're we're right on the verge of finding out what happens with this fuel crisis, so we might all go out of business. But you know, um I've gotten this far and and without having a boss and whatever, right? So so as much as I can whinge and moan about the industry, um, and remember I'm trying not to. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, right now, sorry. Um, but I'm really I am really glad that I gave myself those two things. Yeah, definitely. What would I do differently? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

I think it's I think that last point of being being self-employed and and being able to um you know make a living with that, yeah, I think is very, very underrated. It's one of those things that um, you know, people often talk about the the you know, you can go into the corporate world and you've got a bit of um you've got a bit more security in the job and prospects and stuff like that, but I don't know how much security is really there.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

You know, there's there's these all these companies that are these um supposed to be these tech darlings are laying off tens of thousands of people right now. Um so I think it's a very disruptive time in every industry across the entire economic, you know, macroeconomic spectrum. So it's it's one of those things that because you're the one who makes your own decisions, you're not gonna be on the chopping block ever.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

So well, I think I told you when the global recession was happening, um, it didn't hit me in 2008, it hit me in 2009, where my turnover suddenly dropped by two-thirds. And um if I was in an employment situation in that at that time, I would have been fired or made redundant, you know. Um, but I was just able to, because I'm running my own ship, I was just able to go, well, I'll just live off baked beans for a while and just figure out how to get through it. Um and that's what I did, you know. So that's an example of where you're in some ways you're more resilient of yourself and I think that was the fourth question, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Do you have do you have more as well?

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Uh no. That was you can ask another one if you want to. No, no, those are the genuine questions. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

What do you want to go to the ads and I'll drink some lemon tea?

SPEAKER_04 29:24

Sure. First advert. Whether you've never picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years and feel like you've hit a wall, Auckland guitar lessons are for you. Lessons are one-on-one, and every session is built around your goals, your taste, and the songs you actually want to play. All the fundamentals of technique and theory are covered in an accessible way and applied within the songs you're learning, so you progress faster and actually enjoy the ride. If you've always wanted to play, now's the time. If you've plateaued, Auckland Guitar Lessons will unlock your playing, rebuild your confidence, and get you moving again. Head to aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more. And uh don't let my bad playing uh turn you off from that because you should have seen what it was like a year earlier.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay, so my silly question is for you. You're gonna like this one. This is just for you. What was the most money you've spent on gear that you barely use?

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Honestly, you might not believe me, but it's I pretty much use everything that I do buy. Um I'm I'm I am pretty stringent with that.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So Well, should I reshape the question? What was the most amount of money you spent on a want and not a need?

SPEAKER_04 30:40

Everything for me is a want and not a need. I don't do this professionally, so we're this is all want territory. Um but I'd I'd say probably um actually probably this Eastman, which was 2200 New Zealand. So that's I think that's reasonable for a very nice guitar.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Most of the stuff I do is um I'm a big, big proponent of buying used and uh getting quite thrifty with things. Um I also have a strict one-in-one-out policy now. Um that's uh uh co-policy between Taylor and I. I mean, I've got no more space on the wall for the guitars. Um we've got a whole bunch of other walls in the house, but apparently I'm only allowed this one.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

That's clever. For any any uh partners of a guitar player listening, mount a certain number of hooks on the wall. See there's guitar hooks on the wall and say that's the number. You want to buy another one? You have to sell one of those guitars hanging on the wall.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

I will say it does what am I talking about?

SPEAKER_01 31:39

I'm a guitar player. Why am I rooting for the other team?

SPEAKER_04 31:42

I will say it is it is really good for making me sort of stop and say if if I want this guitar NF to be better than the one I already have, and everything that I have I really do love, and I've you know built um a bit of uh sentimental value into all of them at this stage. So it does make you really stop and think if hey, is that next one, is that new shiny toy really uh better than the one I already have?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Okay, next question. What's your most unpopular music opinion that would get you cancelled or unfriended?

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Huh. I don't know if I have anything that's outrageous like that that's gonna have a lot of you have plenty. Okay. Um I don't know. I've I've always just been a big proponent of if I like something, I like something. Um and I don't really care too much if other people like it. Um I was always uh a big defender of nickelback all throughout the the time that the internet seemed to love to hate them. Um one of my best friends uh you said that like that was in the past. Oh no, I'm still a fan. But the the lack of enthusiasm for the mini-back is I I think I think there's been a little bit of a uh a little bit of pushback on that. Okay, interesting. I think that's actually coming back around a little bit. Um so yeah, stuff like that. I've always you know I'm a I'm a big fan of musical theater, um, which I used to get made fun of for a little bit for that, but you know, it's not one of those things that that I really worry too much about. So I think if it's if it's music that excites you, um who gives a shit?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Alright. Well if you could this is my last question, if you could delete one song from existence, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 33:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

I don't know if I have Is there a song that if it came on the TV, you would literally like dive across the room for the remote to hit the mute button?

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Uh Who Let the Dogs Out? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

That's pretty awful.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Because my dogs would probably start yipping and then it would piss me off.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Oh, so it's not even just about the song.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

No, I don't uh I don't really have a lot of music that I um have super strong negative opinions for. Like some I'd say some of the more hardcore death metal or something, I just sometimes find not very pleasant to listen to the harsh vocals, but I mean I can always appreciate something in the music, so I don't really have very, very strong negative opinions of anything. Um I mean we've kind of talked about this as well. Like even a lot of the popular mainstream music that's super formulaic, I I still think it has if if somebody likes it, I'm cool with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Interesting. I do not relate.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Your turn. Well who would I guess who would what would be the one song you would uh delete?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Well, uh the funny thing is is I don't usually say anything out loud because then there's always someone around the corner who then puts it on for a laugh, you know? Um no, but I I I get stuff really stuck in my head. That's one thing. So if if there's a song that doesn't get stuck in my head and I just don't like it, then it doesn't bother me. But it's just when stuff gets really stuck in my head, it just drives me crazy. So I might let's just leave it at that. Uh so your turn.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Cool. Um this was uh not not so much a silly question, a little bit more genuine, but um I just recently watched an interview with Madison Cunningham. If you've never listened to her music or seen any of her interviews, highly recommend. Um but the question was around guitar and music as an obsession. Um she had uh, I think musical parents and stuff, so it was one of those things that was a little bit of a chore at the start.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

And she made a comment that at the beginning it felt like eating vegetables. Uh by my teen years, it felt like drinking chocolate milk. And I thought that was a I thought that was a pretty interesting, um, you know, a pretty interesting um metaphor. It's that's kind of what I think of it as, you know, it's something that kind of lets me refill my cup, so to speak. It's it's something that you look forward to. It's a reward at the end of the day to actually play some music um as opposed to sitting there needing to run scales or something and having it be more of a chore. I'm curious if that's something you can see in your students and what are the common traits of the people that get to the stage of drinking chocolate milk and stick with it.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

You can definitely see that. You can see that because there's no conversation around how long do you think I should practice for? None of that stuff comes up. It's just they almost lead the conversation. I was working on this and I was trying this, and I tried to do this, but then that didn't work. And then so I was listening to this person play it, and then this happened, and then you know, and it's just like anyone who's really into anything, you know, they just don't need to be pushed. Um and it's exciting. I I I don't begrudge people who don't have that. You know, I think one of the great things about music is that um it's available to everybody and they can have whatever type of relationship they want with it. I think I think that we've actually put too many barriers up by talking about music like it's some highfalutin thing, you know, like either you have talent or you don't, which I disagree with.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Yeah, I disagree with that as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, or you um have to be a professional what what's weird is when people say, Hey, listen, I I don't want to be a professional or anything, and I think, who cares? That got to do with anything, you know? Um for me it's the love of the craft and and figuring out how to do it better and how you know and more technique and more music theory knowledge and things like that opens more doors.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You know, so um yeah, uh did I answer your question? I've forgotten what it was.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

Uh what are the what are the common traits that you see in your students that get into that stage where they enjoy the craft, they in and enjoy the doing um more so than trying to reach a target, you know, I can play so-and-so song or I'm ready for this gig, but genuinely enjoy the process of learning and picking apart the instrument, picking apart the music.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

I think it's just running with it. They're they're working on the songs I give them, but they're also working on all sorts of other songs, and they're um r experimenting and analyzing stuff, and it's just that kind of having fun. Having fun with it and being passionate and being really, really curious.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Um so another one, you've been playing for what'd you say, 36 years? Yes. What do you think is the appropriate level of shame one should feel for playing that long and not learning how to set up their instrument?

SPEAKER_01 37:59

I think no shame at all. Um I know what you're getting at.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

John John Bollinger, uh, when his rig rundowns, he'll always say when when he gets somebody who is is not too into the actual gear side of it, they just know how to play it. He goes, you know, you know how to drive the race car, you don't need to know how to maintain it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Exactly. The funny, I mean, Mike's Mike is currently giving me shit because I'm hopeless at setting up my guitar, but Mike's an engineer, right? Um when when something technical comes across Mike, he uh your your view, you kind of go, yes, let's understand this, let's break this down, let's dig into this. And I just go, uh, feels like schoolwork. Um but um slightly serious answer to you to your question is um when you start a small business, um one of the difficult things to confront is that whatever the thing is that you're good at, um, it's balanced out by things you're not good at. You might be really, really good at sales, let's say, um, and not be very good at like managing your diary. Um, or the other way around. You might be, you know, kind of like introverted, but you might be like really good at the thing that you're setting up to do. Um but when you're self-employed in a small business, you have to do all of it. So whatever you're not good at, you have to, what I've always said to myself is you have to upskill or outsource. And small business is a strap for cash usually, so they can't outsource that much. Um, so you just have to lump it and try and get good at stuff, you know. But then you just always end up in these situations where you know enough about that to get by.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

You know, I outsource I outsource my accounts. So I I have spreadsheets, I manage my accounts, and I send all my stuff to my accountant, um, and then he takes care of it, and that gives me a bit of peace of mind. Um if you asked me difficult questions about tax, I'd I would fail the conversation. Um, but when I'm talking to him, I'm right there with him, I get it in that moment, walk out, it's gone.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

Yeah. You know pretty much every exam I've ever written.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And and you know, I I deal with recording software and um video editing software and um Photoshop and all these different programs and all these different areas of expertise and things. So when I go to the store because I need a new guitar ramp, then I start I I now am a bit more schooled on tubes and watts and you know things like that. Um then I choose the one I need and then I totally forget all of it. And somebody goes, What's what what it is your amp?

SPEAKER_04 40:23

I don't know. I don't know, whatever it was when I bought it.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah. But there is there is kind of a bit of that to the answer because I when you're a working performing musician, you've got bigger things to worry about.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Um, and there are people who are gonna no matter how much I upskill at setting up my guitar, there are people who are better at it. And I better put I may as well put my focus on what I need to do, which is figuring out how to work the stage, you know. Yeah, so um shit received, shit shit throwing back.

SPEAKER_04 40:52

We're gonna do a lesson. I'm gonna teach you how to do at least the the basics yourself. Um last one, how much are you regretting accepting that first jam invite at this stage?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Not at all. Not at all. It's always more about the hang, right? Yeah, yeah. And I also really like being thrown in the deep end um in the sense of I've been an improvisational musician since I started. Um I've been to like fancy pants jams in LA with you know people on the stage who are really high level and tried to stay afloat, you know, tried to swim and not sink, um, and done pretty well there. And I've I've played in all sorts of different scenarios and and I really like being in the moment um and listening to what everyone's doing and responding and and figuring out how to kind of fit in as part of the as part of the thing about playing I enjoy. So um you guys are having fun and you're good guys and and you're jamming and I was just the same thing. I enjoyed it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

Yeah. Oh, I will definitely say I'm don't want to speak for Matt, but I know for me when you're joining, you know, it's I know you're we can kind of tell you're not going into that space of trying to be like a tutor, you know, yeah, you're not you're not obviously trying to do your day job, you're just trying to hang out and have fun.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

But we also want to learn every single thing you can teach us, right? So we're kind of in that stage of of trying to swim in the deep end. So yeah, I've learned a lot from that and I really appreciate you coming along to those. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Oh yeah, anytime. Yeah. All right. That was that last question. That was my last question, yeah. Cool. It's gonna be um interesting to see as we do these episodes um how our point of views differ. Um not only the engineer versus the creative dynamic, although you're creative too. Um, but just the what what's the way what's the way of describing the non-professional that doesn't sound condescending, because it doesn't certainly that's not the intention.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Uh amateur, passionate.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

It's funny how people take am people take amateur as a negative though. Oh, I don't. It's not.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

It's just literally you're literally not making a living from it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Um, yeah, so different perspectives will be interesting as we go forth and discuss the things we've got written down to discuss.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

Yeah, I mean we've had very, very different life journeys and trajectories, and yeah, I think we'll that'll play well.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

So, what's our conclusion or verdict?

SPEAKER_04 43:10

Uh I guess thanks for having me as a co-host, and I'm excited to see uh the topics we can cover and the people we'll get to interview, and um I hope we uh have some interesting viewpoints that people will enjoy listening to.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah. So we are gonna um change the format in the sense that in the in the old show it was a different guest for each episode, but on on the new show, um a lot of the time it's just gonna be you and I, and then we'll have guests sometimes. And um on each episode we're gonna talk about a different sort of themed topic, or you know, and like I say, we've got heats of ideas written down. Um and this is where we really want to get feedback from people listening. So um emailing us or commenting on Facebook or Instagram, uh um, or on the reviews on Apple Podcasts, I guess, or whatever ways people where do people comment these days? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

Spotify?

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Spotify. Yeah, well I th I didn't think you could comment on Spotify. Can you? I think you can? Okay. I don't use Spotify, so I'm new to this world. But yeah, uh if you've got ideas of um once you once you kinda listen to a couple of episodes especially and get to know what we're talking about, feel free to take part in the conversation because we want it to be broader.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Yeah, let us know what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah. So Mike, what's our next episode gonna be about?

SPEAKER_04 44:21

What is a musician?

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Yeah. What is a musician? What's the definition of a musician?

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Doesn't sound very interesting, does it? It sounds interesting to me.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Just stop by and have a listen and see if you think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Okay. Now we're gonna play ourselves out. What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Uh I don't know. You you start us off with something. All right, so uh should we go on G minor.nz or email info at Auckland Guitarlessons.co dot Nz to find out more.